From hpmills3 at austin.rr.com Tue May 1 22:09:56 2007 From: hpmills3 at austin.rr.com (Henry Mills) Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 21:09:56 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session In-Reply-To: <003501c78c3d$dc86bd60$6601a8c0@Karey> Message-ID: > > Percy fellows: > > I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South Atlantic > Modern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking papers on the > topic: ?Walker Percy Today? ? that topic should be broad enough to fit many > different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today ? but somehow is > not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Some of the > suggestions came from listserv observations, as you can see below ? Nikki > compared Lancelot to a Jihadist; someone here (don?t remember who) also noted > LIR echoed Katrina. > > Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May 15. The > SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org (or > http://samla.gsu.edu ) with the conference information > ? November 9-11, 2007, in Atlanta, at the Renaissance Hotel downtown. > > I would love to see some of you at the conference, at the session, or giving > your paper for the session! We?ve conversed over the years, and though I have > been silent lately (attempting to diligently finish a dissertation before I > pontificate on a listserv?), hopefully, we?ll be able to reconnect and meet! > > Karey Perkins > Senior Professor of English, DeVry University > Alpharetta, Georgia > > Topic: Walker Percy, an honorary memory of SAMLA, is sometimes considered > ?merely? a topical writer and, in the 17 years since his death, seems to have > faded from the literary landscape. College literature courses, even those on > southern literature, only infrequently include Percy?s writing. How is Percy > relevant to us today? Does his study of symbol and language have anything to > offer linguists, philosophers, or anthropologists today? Are his dystopian > science fiction novels, his social satires, and his social parodies > out-of-date ? or was he a prescient visionary, still current today and in the > future? Possible topics include, but are not limited to, the similarities > between the psychology of Lancelot and a modern day terrorist; Love in the > Ruins as a description of the chaos and racial divide in New Orleans after > Hurricane Katrina; the Knotheads and the LEFTPAPAS forecasting the political > divide in America today; More?s lapsometer in Love in the Ruins and patient > medication in The Second Coming echoing the popularity of Prozac and other > anti-depressants today. One-page abstracts sent to Karey Perkins at > karey1 at charter.net by May 15, 2007. Complete papers should be no more than > ten pages or 20 minutes to read. > > > > Whoops ? was it Rich Gray who first noticed Lancelot as a jihadist? I went > back through the archives and perhaps it was. At any rate, my re-reading of > Lancelot confirmed that perspective ? Lancelot has the psychology of a > terrorist in every way. > > Karey > > ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey at kareyperkins.com Wed May 2 10:37:44 2007 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:37:44 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] PS: Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003101c78cc7$744f67d0$6601a8c0@Karey> PS: The deadline for abstracts has been extended to May 30, 2007, as SAMLA has extended it. _____ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Henry Mills Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:10 PM To: percy-l Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session Percy fellows: I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South Atlantic Modern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking papers on the topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough to fit many different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but somehow is not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Some of the suggestions came from listserv observations, as you can see below - Nikki compared Lancelot to a Jihadist; someone here (don't remember who) also noted LIR echoed Katrina. Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May 15. The SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org (or http://samla.gsu.edu ) with the conference information - November 9-11, 2007, in Atlanta, at the Renaissance Hotel downtown. I would love to see some of you at the conference, at the session, or giving your paper for the session! We've conversed over the years, and though I have been silent lately (attempting to diligently finish a dissertation before I pontificate on a listserv.), hopefully, we'll be able to reconnect and meet! Karey Perkins Senior Professor of English, DeVry University Alpharetta, Georgia Topic: Walker Percy, an honorary memory of SAMLA, is sometimes considered "merely" a topical writer and, in the 17 years since his death, seems to have faded from the literary landscape. College literature courses, even those on southern literature, only infrequently include Percy's writing. How is Percy relevant to us today? Does his study of symbol and language have anything to offer linguists, philosophers, or anthropologists today? Are his dystopian science fiction novels, his social satires, and his social parodies out-of-date - or was he a prescient visionary, still current today and in the future? Possible topics include, but are not limited to, the similarities between the psychology of Lancelot and a modern day terrorist; Love in the Ruins as a description of the chaos and racial divide in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina; the Knotheads and the LEFTPAPAS forecasting the political divide in America today; More's lapsometer in Love in the Ruins and patient medication in The Second Coming echoing the popularity of Prozac and other anti-depressants today. One-page abstracts sent to Karey Perkins at karey1 at charter.net by May 15, 2007. Complete papers should be no more than ten pages or 20 minutes to read. Whoops - was it Rich Gray who first noticed Lancelot as a jihadist? I went back through the archives and perhaps it was. At any rate, my re-reading of Lancelot confirmed that perspective - Lancelot has the psychology of a terrorist in every way. Karey ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From korrektiv at gmail.com Wed May 2 18:29:55 2007 From: korrektiv at gmail.com (Rufus McCain) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:29:55 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Reading Lost in the Cosmos Message-ID: <1329b480705021529m6bb935aai8c010585b3659728@mail.gmail.com> Dear Percy-L friends: Over at Korrektiv (www.korrektiv.org), a few of us are getting together to read and discuss *Lost in the Cosmos*. Please do come on over and join in the fun. Or let your own discussion break out here on the list. In any case, this is a book to reread again in these dread early days of the 21st Century. Best, Rufus McCain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tfa at brickengraver.com Wed May 2 18:59:54 2007 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:59:54 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Reading Lost in the Cosmos In-Reply-To: <1329b480705021529m6bb935aai8c010585b3659728@mail.gmail.com> References: <1329b480705021529m6bb935aai8c010585b3659728@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <018601c78d0d$993ecef0$cbbc6cd0$@com> How do I join? Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy Signposts in a Strange Land From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Rufus McCain Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 6:30 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] Reading Lost in the Cosmos Dear Percy-L friends: Over at Korrektiv (www.korrektiv.org), a few of us are getting together to read and discuss Lost in the Cosmos. Please do come on over and join in the fun. Or let your own discussion break out here on the list. In any case, this is a book to reread again in these dread early days of the 21st Century. Best, Rufus McCain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From korrektiv at gmail.com Wed May 2 21:07:17 2007 From: korrektiv at gmail.com (Rufus McCain) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 18:07:17 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Reading Lost in the Cosmos In-Reply-To: <018601c78d0d$993ecef0$cbbc6cd0$@com> References: <1329b480705021529m6bb935aai8c010585b3659728@mail.gmail.com> <018601c78d0d$993ecef0$cbbc6cd0$@com> Message-ID: <1329b480705021807u11568b13le9a15aea0ef3e95f@mail.gmail.com> Tommy: Thanks for your interest. Start hereand then follow and participate in the discussion as it unfolds in successive blog entries over the next few weeks. --Rufus McCain Spokane, WA On 5/2/07, Tommy Armstrong wrote: > > How do I join? > > Tommy Armstrong > > PO Box 484 > > Lillington, NC 27546 > > http://www.brickengraver.com > > > > The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the > everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the > search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in > despair. > > Walker Percy > > Signposts in a Strange Land > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto: > percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] *On Behalf Of *Rufus McCain > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 02, 2007 6:30 PM > *To:* Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > *Subject:* [percy-l] Reading Lost in the Cosmos > > > > Dear Percy-L friends: > > > > Over at Korrektiv (www.korrektiv.org), a few of us are getting together to > read and discuss *Lost in the Cosmos*. Please do come on over and join in > the fun. Or let your own discussion break out here on the list. In any > case, this is a book to reread again in these dread early days of the 21st > Century. > > > > Best, > > Rufus McCain > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnharvey at earthlink.net Thu May 3 08:30:53 2007 From: johnharvey at earthlink.net (John Harvey) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 07:30:53 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Reading Lost in the Cosmos In-Reply-To: <1329b480705021529m6bb935aai8c010585b3659728@mail.gmail.com > References: <1329b480705021529m6bb935aai8c010585b3659728@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Rufus, List, After lurking around for several weeks, your post caught my attention. I was introduced to Percy through Samway's A Thief of Peirce: The Letters of Kenneth Laine Ketner and Walker Percy. Even though my interest is more philosophical than literary, I believe that my participation in reading and discussing Lost in the Cosmos, however peripheral, will add a valuable perspective to my worldview. At 03:29 PM 5/2/2007 -0700, Rufus McCain wrote: >Dear Percy-L friends: > >Over at Korrektiv (www.korrektiv.org), a >few of us are getting together to read and discuss Lost in the >Cosmos. Please do come on over and join in the fun. Or let your >own discussion break out here on the list. In any case, this is a >book to reread again in these dread early days of the 21st Century. > >Best, >Rufus McCain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Thu May 3 10:36:44 2007 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:36:44 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session Message-ID: Dear Friends of the Percy list, For once Henry Mills has it wrong. it wasn't me who compared Walker to a Jihadist. that thought got started by someone else and it was me who suggested that there was nothing of the Jihadist in Walker's world view. If the contrary notion came across it must have been garbled in cyberspace or reinterpreted by our vice president. Walker did not hold with violence as a method of bringing about change of any kind and as a matter of fact spent endless hours preventing what we feared might turn into a violent confrontation between demonstrating youth and the school system over the presence of a Confederate flag in the office of the school principal. He was a great believer in an orderly society, the antithesis of jihad, at least as I understand the meaning of that word. Nikki Barranger ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From armstron at ohiou.edu Thu May 3 12:26:16 2007 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 12:26:16 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070503122235.0530b940@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> At 10:36 AM 5/3/2007, Nikkibar at aol.com wrote: >Dear Friends of the Percy list, > >For once Henry Mills has it wrong. Henry was just forwarding Karey Perkins' post (check the subject line). And the comparison was not to Walker Percy, but to Lancelot. So, as someone said, it goes. But it's nice to see a bit of life on the Percy list. Cheers, Ken Armstrong From karey at kareyperkins.com Thu May 3 12:33:02 2007 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:33:02 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20070503122235.0530b940@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: <002701c78da0$b88fbce0$6601a8c0@Karey> Yes, it was my e-mail that didn't go through (think I was using the wrong e-mail addresss) so Henry Mills submitted it for me. And, I was wrong - at the bottom of the e-mail, I said I realized it was really Rich Gray who compared Lancelot to a jihadist, but Nikki had responded in agreement, I think, which was why I thought it was Nikki who said it until I checked further. I agree as well! By the way, anyone interested in submitting a paper for the SAMLA session??!? : ) Topic is "Walker Percy Today" and one page abstracts due to me (Karey Perkins) at karey1 at charter.net by May 30... Karey -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ken Armstrong Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 12:26 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session At 10:36 AM 5/3/2007, Nikkibar at aol.com wrote: >Dear Friends of the Percy list, > >For once Henry Mills has it wrong. Henry was just forwarding Karey Perkins' post (check the subject line). And the comparison was not to Walker Percy, but to Lancelot. So, as someone said, it goes. But it's nice to see a bit of life on the Percy list. Cheers, Ken Armstrong -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Thu May 3 23:58:17 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 23:58:17 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] PS: Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session In-Reply-To: <003101c78cc7$744f67d0$6601a8c0@Karey> References: <003101c78cc7$744f67d0$6601a8c0@Karey> Message-ID: Percy visit 2050 Somewhere an interviewer asked Percy about living again at another time--something like that. As I recall he said he would not like to live again, but to visit, for 1/2 an hour in NYC with a radio to see how we are doing. What will he find? That is a worthy question. Everything I have been reading lately points to a not so good prognosis. Fourth generation war is not the comfortable mutual assured destruction of third generation war. By 2050, IT might actually happen. That is, WMD will have hit CONUS. I hope that NYC Central Park bench still exists for Percy to make his brief visit on. The enemy we face today is far different from the Soviet threat. That love in the ruins may occur. - Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft., Riley, KS 66442 ----- Original Message ----- From: Karey Date: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:59 Subject: [percy-l] PS: Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > PS: The deadline for abstracts has been extended to May 30, 2007, > as SAMLA > has extended it. > > > > _____ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Henry Mills > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:10 PM > To: percy-l > Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session > > > > > Percy fellows: > > I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South > AtlanticModern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking > papers on the > topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough > to fit many > different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but > somehow is > not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Some > of the > suggestions came from listserv observations, as you can see below - > Nikki > compared Lancelot to a Jihadist; someone here (don't remember who) > alsonoted LIR echoed Katrina. > > Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May > 15. The > SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org > (or http://samla.gsu.edu > ) with the > conference information - November 9-11, > 2007, in Atlanta, at the Renaissance Hotel downtown. > > I would love to see some of you at the conference, at the session, > or giving > your paper for the session! We've conversed over the years, and > though I > have been silent lately (attempting to diligently finish a > dissertationbefore I pontificate on a listserv.), hopefully, we'll > be able to reconnect > and meet! > > Karey Perkins > Senior Professor of English, DeVry University > Alpharetta, Georgia > > Topic: Walker Percy, an honorary memory of SAMLA, is sometimes > considered"merely" a topical writer and, in the 17 years since his > death, seems to > have faded from the literary landscape. College literature > courses, even > those on southern literature, only infrequently include Percy's > writing.How is Percy relevant to us today? Does his study of > symbol and language > have anything to offer linguists, philosophers, or anthropologists > today?Are his dystopian science fiction novels, his social > satires, and his social > parodies out-of-date - or was he a prescient visionary, still > current today > and in the future? Possible topics include, but are not limited > to, the > similarities between the psychology of Lancelot and a modern day > terrorist;Love in the Ruins as a description of the chaos and > racial divide in New > Orleans after Hurricane Katrina; the Knotheads and the LEFTPAPAS > forecastingthe political divide in America today; More's > lapsometer in Love in the > Ruins and patient medication in The Second Coming echoing the > popularity of > Prozac and other anti-depressants today. One-page abstracts sent > to Karey > Perkins at karey1 at charter.net by May 15, 2007. Complete papers > should be no > more than ten pages or 20 minutes to read. > > > > Whoops - was it Rich Gray who first noticed Lancelot as a > jihadist? I went > back through the archives and perhaps it was. At any rate, my re- > reading of > Lancelot confirmed that perspective - Lancelot has the psychology > of a > terrorist in every way. > > Karey > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > From Robert_Pauley at oxy.com Fri May 4 00:28:02 2007 From: Robert_Pauley at oxy.com (Robert_Pauley at oxy.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 21:28:02 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] PS: Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7706697134D5C94781B111C8C298D674158BCA26@olawexc8.naoxy.com> Well said, Spc. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 8:58 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] PS: Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session Percy visit 2050 Somewhere an interviewer asked Percy about living again at another time--something like that. As I recall he said he would not like to live again, but to visit, for 1/2 an hour in NYC with a radio to see how we are doing. What will he find? That is a worthy question. Everything I have been reading lately points to a not so good prognosis. Fourth generation war is not the comfortable mutual assured destruction of third generation war. By 2050, IT might actually happen. That is, WMD will have hit CONUS. I hope that NYC Central Park bench still exists for Percy to make his brief visit on. The enemy we face today is far different from the Soviet threat. That love in the ruins may occur. - Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft., Riley, KS 66442 ----- Original Message ----- From: Karey Date: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:59 Subject: [percy-l] PS: Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > PS: The deadline for abstracts has been extended to May 30, 2007, > as SAMLA > has extended it. > > > > _____ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Henry Mills > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:10 PM > To: percy-l > Subject: [percy-l] Forwarded for Karey Perkins: SAMLA Percy session > > > > > Percy fellows: > > I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South > AtlanticModern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking > papers on the > topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough > to fit many > different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but > somehow is > not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Some > of the > suggestions came from listserv observations, as you can see below - > Nikki > compared Lancelot to a Jihadist; someone here (don't remember who) > alsonoted LIR echoed Katrina. > > Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May > 15. The > SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org > (or http://samla.gsu.edu > ) with the > conference information - November 9-11, > 2007, in Atlanta, at the Renaissance Hotel downtown. > > I would love to see some of you at the conference, at the session, > or giving > your paper for the session! We've conversed over the years, and > though I > have been silent lately (attempting to diligently finish a > dissertationbefore I pontificate on a listserv.), hopefully, we'll > be able to reconnect > and meet! > > Karey Perkins > Senior Professor of English, DeVry University > Alpharetta, Georgia > > Topic: Walker Percy, an honorary memory of SAMLA, is sometimes > considered"merely" a topical writer and, in the 17 years since his > death, seems to > have faded from the literary landscape. College literature > courses, even > those on southern literature, only infrequently include Percy's > writing.How is Percy relevant to us today? Does his study of > symbol and language > have anything to offer linguists, philosophers, or anthropologists > today?Are his dystopian science fiction novels, his social > satires, and his social > parodies out-of-date - or was he a prescient visionary, still > current today > and in the future? Possible topics include, but are not limited > to, the > similarities between the psychology of Lancelot and a modern day > terrorist;Love in the Ruins as a description of the chaos and > racial divide in New > Orleans after Hurricane Katrina; the Knotheads and the LEFTPAPAS > forecastingthe political divide in America today; More's > lapsometer in Love in the > Ruins and patient medication in The Second Coming echoing the > popularity of > Prozac and other anti-depressants today. One-page abstracts sent > to Karey > Perkins at karey1 at charter.net by May 15, 2007. Complete papers > should be no > more than ten pages or 20 minutes to read. > > > > Whoops - was it Rich Gray who first noticed Lancelot as a > jihadist? I went > back through the archives and perhaps it was. At any rate, my re- > reading of > Lancelot confirmed that perspective - Lancelot has the psychology > of a > terrorist in every way. > > Karey > > > > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Sat May 5 20:42:48 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Harvey asks: > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is related to > "the > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for this > connection? In either case, I would appreciate knowing where I can > get more information on these ideas. > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really understand. I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the Bottle also. This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 From johnharvey at earthlink.net Sun May 6 08:10:17 2007 From: johnharvey at earthlink.net (John Harvey) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Robert Eckert, List At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic threshold]. A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the > triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a > new mode of being. > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really understand. > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the >Bottle also. > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think >that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic trees. Respectfully, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnharvey at earthlink.net Sun May 6 09:39:17 2007 From: johnharvey at earthlink.net (John Harvey) Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us Message-ID: List, As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few more that we need to build secure bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A Fateful Rift. At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your attention to this posting Resistance is Futile I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book. I am also recommending these signposts to some of my unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. Respectfully, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rgeckert at yahoo.com Sun May 6 14:17:59 2007 From: rgeckert at yahoo.com (Robert Eckert) Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 11:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <57848.10312.qm@web30510.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John Harvey, list, In the intro to _The Message in the Bottle_ Percy writes of this subject: "unless I am very much mistaken, it lies across the impasse which must be broken throufgh before a new man in a new age can begin to inderstand himself." In terms of our future, I was extremely pleased to read in USA Today that there is research into using cell phones as CBRN (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear) detectors. That sort of thinking is precisely what will prevent very bad things from happening. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, KS 66442 John Harvey wrote: Robert Eckert, List At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic threshold]. A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really understand. I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the Bottle also. This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic trees. Respectfully, John -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Tue May 8 10:46:13 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 09:46:13 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA002541454@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Dear John, Robert, and others, This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE (p. 158): "An awareness of the nature of language must have the greatest possible consequences for our minimal concept of man. For one thing it must reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief which is professed by some and given lip service by many but which can hardly be said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We see man--when I say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended American high schools and universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands erect, he apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more complex than that of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct continuity with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is unfortunate. I say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the old dream of the Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal science can discover and set forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream is drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us that what man is cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is rather that man's science is one of the things that man does, a mode of existence. Another mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's words, that being in the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a clearing." So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the human capacity for language is what separates us from the animals. The Christian philosophers, to whose work he makes implicit reference here, would say that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a middle creature, both material and spiritual (the highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and the triadic nature of language is both a material clue for this reality and the means by which this composite creature (man) has access to that which is higher. Language itself is always material--whether written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled centuries earlier, in the high Middle Ages, long before "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both matter and spirit. Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I think he thought he had something that even the rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to acknowledge. Best regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John Harvey) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 From: Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii John Harvey asks: > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is related to > "the > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for this > connection? In either case, I would appreciate knowing where I can > get more information on these ideas. > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really understand. I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the Bottle also. This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 From: John Harvey Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert Eckert, List At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic threshold]. A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the > triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a > new mode of being. > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really understand. > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the >Bottle also. > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think >that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic trees. Respectfully, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/3502d283 /attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 From: John Harvey Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List, As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few more that we need to build secure bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A Fateful Rift. At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your attention to this posting Resistance is Futile I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book. I am also recommending these signposts to some of my unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. Respectfully, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8 /attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 ************************************** From Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu Tue May 8 14:00:02 2007 From: Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu (Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:00:02 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA002541454@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE300124E3@MSGSRV2.rccd.net> Thank you, Michael, for that pithy clarification of what I consider to be Percy's most significant contribution to the existentialist--or perhaps more precisely, the human--dilemma. I'm currently working on my dissertation, a study of the construct of race in Percy's novels. The dissertation calls upon African American studies as well as post-colonial studies in order to discern and/or to illustrate how our peculiar notions of American "whiteness" tie directly to what Toni Morrison refers to as an "Africanist presence." (It's the only way I could get away with devoting the entire dissertation to Percy, but it really does make for a fascinating study.) All of this to explain why I've been lurking rather than engaging in the conversations for the few months in which I've been aware of this list. I'd love to participate more, but, well, I'm writing a dissertation... I did have to take the opportunity, though, to thank Michael for his insightful and evocative explanation of this cornerstone of Percian thought. All the best, Tammy DiBenedetto Tammy DiBenedetto Associate Professor, English Riverside City College 4800 Magnolia Avenue Riverside, CA 92506 951.222.8271 Pe rcy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael Larson Sent: Tue 5/8/2007 7:46 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue Dear John, Robert, and others, This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE (p. 158): "An awareness of the nature of language must have the greatest possible consequences for our minimal concept of man. For one thing it must reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief which is professed by some and given lip service by many but which can hardly be said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We see man--when I say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended American high schools and universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands erect, he apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more complex than that of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct continuity with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is unfortunate. I say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the old dream of the Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal science can discover and set forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream is drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us that what man is cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is rather that man's science is one of the things that man does, a mode of existence. Another mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's words, that being in the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a clearing." So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the human capacity for language is what separates us from the animals. The Christian philosophers, to whose work he makes implicit reference here, would say that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a middle creature, both material and spiritual (the highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and the triadic nature of language is both a material clue for this reality and the means by which this composite creature (man) has access to that which is higher. Language itself is always material--whether written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled centuries earlier, in the high Middle Ages, long before "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both matter and spirit. Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I think he thought he had something that even the rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to acknowledge. Best regards, Michael Larson -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John Harvey) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 From: Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii John Harvey asks: > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is related to > "the > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for this > connection? In either case, I would appreciate knowing where I can > get more information on these ideas. > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really understand. I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the Bottle also. This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 From: John Harvey Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert Eckert, List At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic threshold]. A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the > triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a > new mode of being. > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really understand. > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the >Bottle also. > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think >that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic trees. Respectfully, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/3502d283 /attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 From: John Harvey Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List, As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few more that we need to build secure bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A Fateful Rift. At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your attention to this posting Resistance is Futile I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book. I am also recommending these signposts to some of my unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. Respectfully, John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8 /attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 ************************************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Tue May 8 20:14:36 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:14:36 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA002541454@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA002541454@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: The conflict between language being an "evolutionary breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. Language is a feature that was created as all other features were created. The process of creation is the process of natural selection. Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were created by the Creator. Chance is God unrecognized. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, KS 66442 "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" - Peirce ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Larson Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE (p. > 158): > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the greatest > possibleconsequences for our minimal concept of man. For one thing > it must > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the West as not > merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the > Christian idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief > which is > professed by some and given lip service by many but which can > hardly be > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We see man-- > when I > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended American high schools > and universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands > erect, he > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more complex > than that > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is quantitative, > not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct > continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > unfortunate. I > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the old dream > of the > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal science can > discoverand set forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. > The dream is > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us that what > man is > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is rather that > man'sscience is one of the things that man does, a mode of > existence. Another > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to and > controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's words, that > being in > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, to give > testimony to it, and to provide for it a clearing." > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the human > capacityfor language is what separates us from the animals. The > Christianphilosophers, to whose work he makes implicit reference > here, would say > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and > that God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual (non-material) > order. But man is a middle creature, both material and spiritual (the > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and the triadic > nature of language is both a material clue for this reality and the > means by which this composite creature (man) has access to that > which is > higher. Language itself is always material--whether written or > spoken--but it allows by way of signification for consciousness and > contemplation, which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere > sleight of > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to describe in grand > terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled centuries earlier, in the high > MiddleAges, long before "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was > even born. > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some > evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique > creature, a > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both > matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately a > proof for > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the material > world, I > think he thought he had something that even the rationalist-naturalist > intelligentsia would have to acknowledge. > > Best regards, > Michael Larson > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John Harvey) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > From: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is related to > > "the > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for this > > connection? In either case, I would appreciate knowing where I > can > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the > Self" speaks to this connection. > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic > threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to > synthesize the > triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body > Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless > self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > understand. > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the > Bottle also. > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think that > understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > From: John Harvey > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Robert Eckert, List > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of > the > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic > threshold]. > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in Lost > in > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the > seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the > > triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability > to > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a > > new mode of being. > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the > Mind/Body > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. > >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I > didn't > >really understand. > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in > the > >Bottle also. > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think > >that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are > going. > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater > emphasis > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to > build > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > understanding > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift > properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is > the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my > dyadic > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic trees. > > Respectfully, > > John > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > From: John Harvey > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > List, > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the face of > overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract as much > attention to evidence of the problem as we can muster to convince > those in doubt. Hopefully, when the evidence is more widely > understood, it will convince a few more that we need to build > secure > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy > called > A Fateful Rift. > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your > attention > to this posting Resistance is Futile > I > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently hosting the > seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self- > HelpBook. > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my unknowing or > doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > Respectfully, > > John > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From tfa at brickengraver.com Tue May 8 21:45:08 2007 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:45:08 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue In-Reply-To: References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA002541454@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com> I am not it agreement with the statement: "The process of creation is the process of natural selection" An act of creation happens every time a mutation (or divine intervention for that matter) occurs. Billions of acts of creation in the natural world have occurred in the past--most simply did not continue. Natural selection just determines whether that act of creation is allowed to continue. The origin of man-which to me, and I think to Percy, came at that instant in time where he became triadic in nature. At that point natural selection ceases to exist in the pre-human sense--the "natural world". Man becomes a cultural being- one that is qualitatively different than any other inhabitant of nature and breaks out of the linearity of natural selection. For he then becomes able to exist outside of the natural world, for he has the ability to create his own world or worlds. He has what one of my professors termed as a "My owness". Unlike dyadic creatures we not only create our own worlds but our own space and that space is not a space of an xyz coordinate system. But that is another discussion. To say that the creation of the concept of "natural selection" itself was created by "evolutionary chance" is I think wrong. The act of creation by a man is not the process of natural selection. And the fact that man has the ability, in fact the imperative, to create his own worlds is because of his acquisition of triadic "behavior". It may very well be that " Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were created by the Creator" , but how does one really know? In fact, how can one know? And more to the point, what difference does it made if the Creator used chance or directed action to create us-for if one believes in a Creator--he also invented the concept of chance. If He did not, we did. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com ...with the method of science one beholds what is generally true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely true. Walker Percy Signposts in a Strange Land -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:15 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue The conflict between language being an "evolutionary breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. Language is a feature that was created as all other features were created. The process of creation is the process of natural selection. Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were created by the Creator. Chance is God unrecognized. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, KS 66442 "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" - Peirce ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Larson Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE BOTTLE (p. > 158): > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the greatest > possibleconsequences for our minimal concept of man. For one thing > it must > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the West as not > merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the > Christian idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief > which is > professed by some and given lip service by many but which can > hardly be > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We see man-- > when I > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended American high schools > and universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands > erect, he > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more complex > than that > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is quantitative, > not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct > continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > unfortunate. I > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the old dream > of the > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal science can > discoverand set forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. > The dream is > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us that what > man is > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is rather that > man'sscience is one of the things that man does, a mode of > existence. Another > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to and > controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's words, that > being in > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, to give > testimony to it, and to provide for it a clearing." > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the human > capacityfor language is what separates us from the animals. The > Christianphilosophers, to whose work he makes implicit reference > here, would say > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and > that God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual (non-material) > order. But man is a middle creature, both material and spiritual (the > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and the triadic > nature of language is both a material clue for this reality and the > means by which this composite creature (man) has access to that > which is > higher. Language itself is always material--whether written or > spoken--but it allows by way of signification for consciousness and > contemplation, which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere > sleight of > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to describe in grand > terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled centuries earlier, in the high > MiddleAges, long before "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was > even born. > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some > evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique > creature, a > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both > matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately a > proof for > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the material > world, I > think he thought he had something that even the rationalist-naturalist > intelligentsia would have to acknowledge. > > Best regards, > Michael Larson > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John Harvey) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > From: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is related to > > "the > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for this > > connection? In either case, I would appreciate knowing where I > can > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the > Self" speaks to this connection. > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic > threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to > synthesize the > triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body > Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless > self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > understand. > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the > Bottle also. > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think that > understanding where we come from will help us know where we are going. > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > From: John Harvey > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Robert Eckert, List > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of > the > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic > threshold]. > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in Lost > in > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the > seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the > > triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability > to > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and signified, > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved a > > new mode of being. > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the > Mind/Body > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. > >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I > didn't > >really understand. > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in > the > >Bottle also. > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think > >that understanding where we come from will help us know where we are > going. > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater > emphasis > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to > build > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > understanding > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift > properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is > the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my > dyadic > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic trees. > > Respectfully, > > John > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > From: John Harvey > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > List, > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the face of > overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract as much > attention to evidence of the problem as we can muster to convince > those in doubt. Hopefully, when the evidence is more widely > understood, it will convince a few more that we need to build > secure > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy > called > A Fateful Rift. > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your > attention > to this posting Resistance is Futile > I > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently hosting the > seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the Cosmos: The Last Self- > HelpBook. > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my unknowing or > doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > Respectfully, > > John > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From marcus at loyno.edu Wed May 9 09:54:27 2007 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:54:27 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 Message-ID: <4641d293.bb.145014.20497@loyno.edu> Michael Larson states: "Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both matter and spirit." Doesn't this really excellent discussion lead us to revise slightly: "Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both matter and SPEAKING." Marcus Smith New Orleans ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:45:42 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Language is a clue (Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu) > 2. Re: Language is a clue (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > 3. Re: Language is a clue (Tommy Armstrong) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:00:02 -0700 > From: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > To: , > Message-ID: > <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE300124E3 at MSGSRV2.rccd.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you, Michael, for that pithy clarification of what I > consider to be Percy's most significant contribution to > the existentialist--or perhaps more precisely, the > human--dilemma. > > > > I'm currently working on my dissertation, a study of the > construct of race in Percy's novels. The dissertation > calls upon African American studies as well as > post-colonial studies in order to discern and/or to > illustrate how our peculiar notions of American > "whiteness" tie directly to what Toni Morrison refers to > as an "Africanist presence." (It's the only way I could > get away with devoting the entire dissertation to Percy, > but it really does make for a fascinating study.) All of > this to explain why I've been lurking rather than engaging > in the conversations for the few months in which I've been > aware of this list. I'd love to participate more, but, > well, I'm writing a dissertation... > > > > I did have to take the opportunity, though, to thank > Michael for his insightful and evocative explanation of > this cornerstone of Percian thought. > > > All the best, > > Tammy DiBenedetto > > Tammy DiBenedetto > Associate Professor, English > Riverside City College > 4800 Magnolia Avenue > Riverside, CA 92506 > 951.222.8271 > > > Pe > rcy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael > Larson Sent: Tue 5/8/2007 7:46 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE > BOTTLE (p. 158): > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the > greatest possible consequences for our minimal concept of > man. For one thing it must reveal the ordinary secular > concept of man held in the West as not merely inadequate > but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the Christian > idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief > which is professed by some and given lip service by many > but which can hardly be said to be a working assumption of > secular learning. We see man--when I say we, I mean 95 per > cent of those who attended American high schools and > universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands > erect, he apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is > far more complex than that of the most advanced Cebus > azarae. But the difference is quantitative, not > qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct > continuity with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > unfortunate. I say unfortunate because it means the > shattering of the old dream of the Enlightenment--that an > objective-explanatory-causal science can discover and set > forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream > is drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us > that what man is cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. > The case is rather that man's science is one of the things > that man does, a mode of existence. Another mode is > speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to > and controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's > words, that being in the world whose calling it is to find > a name for Being, to give testimony to it, and to provide > for it a clearing." > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the > human capacity for language is what separates us from the > animals. The Christian philosophers, to whose work he > makes implicit reference here, would say that the animals > are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and that > God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual > (non-material) order. But man is a middle creature, both > material and spiritual (the highest of the former and the > lowest of the latter), and the triadic nature of language > is both a material clue for this reality and the means by > which this composite creature (man) has access to that > which is higher. Language itself is always > material--whether written or spoken--but it allows by way > of signification for consciousness and contemplation, > which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled > centuries earlier, in the high Middle Ages, long before > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some > evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a > unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate > two realms: those of both matter and spirit. Language, for > Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual > order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I > think he thought he had something that even the > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to > acknowledge. > > Best regards, > Michael Larson > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John > Harvey) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > From: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is > > related to "the > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for > > this connection? In either case, I would appreciate > > knowing where I can get more information on these ideas. > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the > ability to synthesize the triadic relation between > signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their > referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the > Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical > Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing > on subjects I didn't really understand. > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > Message in the Bottle also. > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to > think that understanding where we come from will help us > know where we are going. > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > From: John Harvey > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Robert Eckert, List > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between > symbol use and triadic threshold]. > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included > in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could > participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain > > evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation > > between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and > > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of > being. > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > the Mind/Body >Problem' June 1999 International > Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really > understand. > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > Message in the >Bottle also. > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > to think >that understanding where we come from will help > us know where we are going. > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater > emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is > learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's > Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic > threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly > and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is > the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to > retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through > what appear to be dyadic trees. > > Respectfully, > > John > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/3502d283 > /attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > From: John Harvey > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > List, > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the > face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract > as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can > muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the > evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few > more that we need to build secure bridges across the > Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A > Fateful Rift. > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your > attention to this posting Resistance is Futile > l> I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and > growing. > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the > Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book. > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > Respectfully, > > John > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8 > /attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:14:36 -0500 > From: > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary > breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. > > Language is a feature that was created as all other > features were created. > > The process of creation is the process of natural > selection. > > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were > created by the Creator. > > Chance is God unrecognized. > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, KS 66442 > > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" > - Peirce > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Larson > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN > > THE BOTTLE (p. 158): > > > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the > > greatest possibleconsequences for our minimal concept > > of man. For one thing it must > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the > > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. > > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a > > composite of body and soul, a belief which is > > professed by some and given lip service by many but > > which can hardly be > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We > > see man-- when I > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended > > American high schools and universities--as the highest > > of the organisms: He stands erect, he > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more > > complex than that > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is > > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, > > standing in direct continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, > > protozoa, and mammals. > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > > unfortunate. I > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the > > old dream of the > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal > > science can discoverand set forth all the knowledge of > > which man is capable. The dream is > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us > > that what man is > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is > > rather that man'sscience is one of the things that man > > does, a mode of existence. Another > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism > > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in > > Heidegger's words, that being in > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, > > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a > > clearing." > > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that > > the human capacityfor language is what separates us > > from the animals. The Christianphilosophers, to whose > > work he makes implicit reference here, would say > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, > > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an > > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a > > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and > > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue > > for this reality and the means by which this composite > > creature (man) has access to that which is > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether > > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification > > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the > > spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled > > centuries earlier, in the high MiddleAges, long before > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. > > > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be > > some evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design > > feature in a unique creature, a > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those > > of both matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a > > clue and ultimately a proof for > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the > > material world, I > > think he thought he had something that even the > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to > > acknowledge. > > Best regards, > > Michael Larson > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > > 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John > > Harvey) > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > --------- --- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > > From: > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is > > > related to "the > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources > > > for this connection? In either case, I would > > appreciate knowing where I can > > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved > > the ability to synthesize the > > triadic relation between signifier and signified, > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we > > evolved a new mode of being. > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International > > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > > understand. > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > Message in the Bottle also. > > > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > to think that understanding where we come from will help > > us know where we are going. > > Spc Robert Eckert > > 172 Chemical Corp > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Robert Eckert, List > > > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > Primer of the > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and > > triadic threshold]. > > > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is > > included in Lost in > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate > > in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing > > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain > > evolved the ability to > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and > > > signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At > > > that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > the Mind/Body > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical > > Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive > > writing on subjects I didn't > > >really understand. > > > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > Message in the > > >Bottle also. > > > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > to think >that understanding where we come from will > > help us know where we are going. > > > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put > > greater emphasis > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning > > how to build > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > > understanding > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this > > rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm > > foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a > > handle on your comments. > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to > > retrain my dyadic > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be > > dyadic trees. > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > List, > > > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in > > the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to > > attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as > > we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, > > when the evidence is more widely understood, it will > > convince a few more that we need to build secure > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which > > Percy called > > A Fateful Rift. > > > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing > > your attention > > to this posting Resistance is Futile > > I > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently > > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in > > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook. > > > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my > > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > ************************************** > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:45:08 -0400 > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I am not it agreement with the statement: > "The process of creation is the process of natural > selection" > > An act of creation happens every time a mutation (or > divine intervention for that matter) occurs. Billions of > acts of creation in the natural world have occurred in the > past--most simply did not continue. Natural selection just > determines whether that act of creation is allowed to > continue. The origin of man-which to me, and I think to > Percy, came at that instant in time where he became > triadic in nature. At that point natural selection ceases > to exist in the pre-human sense--the "natural world". Man > becomes a cultural being- one that is qualitatively > different than any other inhabitant of nature and breaks > out of the linearity of natural selection. For he then > becomes able to exist outside of the natural world, for he > has the ability to create his own world or worlds. He has > what one of my professors termed as a "My owness". Unlike > dyadic creatures we not only create our own worlds but our > own space and that space is not a space of an xyz > coordinate system. But that is another discussion. > > To say that the creation of the concept of "natural > selection" itself was created by "evolutionary chance" is > I think wrong. The act of creation by a man is not the > process of natural selection. And the fact that man has > the ability, in fact the imperative, to create his own > worlds is because of his acquisition of triadic > "behavior". It may very well be that " Evolutionary chance > is the process by which we were created by the Creator" , > but how does one really know? In fact, how can one know? > And more to the point, what difference does it made if the > Creator used chance or directed action to create us-for if > one believes in a Creator--he also invented the concept of > chance. If He did not, we did. > > > Tommy Armstrong > PO Box 484 > Lillington, NC 27546 > http://www.brickengraver.com > > ..with the method of science one beholds what is generally > true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely > true. > > Walker Percy > Signposts in a Strange Land > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:15 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary > breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. > > Language is a feature that was created as all other > features were created. > > The process of creation is the process of natural > selection. > > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were > created by the Creator. > > Chance is God unrecognized. > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, KS 66442 > > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" > - Peirce > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Larson > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN > > THE BOTTLE (p. 158): > > > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the > > greatest possibleconsequences for our minimal concept > > of man. For one thing it must > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the > > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. > > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a > > composite of body and soul, a belief which is > > professed by some and given lip service by many but > > which can hardly be > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We > > see man-- when I > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended > > American high schools and universities--as the highest > > of the organisms: He stands erect, he > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more > > complex than that > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is > > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, > > standing in direct continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, > > protozoa, and mammals. > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > > unfortunate. I > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the > > old dream of the > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal > > science can discoverand set forth all the knowledge of > > which man is capable. The dream is > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us > > that what man is > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is > > rather that man'sscience is one of the things that man > > does, a mode of existence. Another > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism > > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in > > Heidegger's words, that being in > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, > > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a > > clearing." > > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that > > the human capacityfor language is what separates us > > from the animals. The Christianphilosophers, to whose > > work he makes implicit reference here, would say > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, > > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an > > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a > > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and > > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue > > for this reality and the means by which this composite > > creature (man) has access to that which is > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether > > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification > > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the > > spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled > > centuries earlier, in the high MiddleAges, long before > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. > > > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be > > some evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design > > feature in a unique creature, a > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those > > of both matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a > > clue and ultimately a proof for > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the > > material world, I > > think he thought he had something that even the > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to > > acknowledge. > > Best regards, > > Michael Larson > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > > 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John > > Harvey) > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > --------- --- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > > From: > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is > > > related to "the > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources > > > for this connection? In either case, I would > > appreciate knowing where I can > > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved > > the ability to synthesize the > > triadic relation between signifier and signified, > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we > > evolved a new mode of being. > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International > > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > > understand. > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > Message in the Bottle also. > > > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > to think that understanding where we come from will help > > us know where we are going. > > Spc Robert Eckert > > 172 Chemical Corp > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Robert Eckert, List > > > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > Primer of the > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and > > triadic threshold]. > > > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is > > included in Lost in > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate > > in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing > > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain > > evolved the ability to > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and > > > signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At > > > that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > the Mind/Body > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical > > Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive > > writing on subjects I didn't > > >really understand. > > > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > Message in the > > >Bottle also. > > > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > to think >that understanding where we come from will > > help us know where we are going. > > > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put > > greater emphasis > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning > > how to build > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > > understanding > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this > > rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm > > foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a > > handle on your comments. > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to > > retrain my dyadic > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be > > dyadic trees. > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > List, > > > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in > > the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to > > attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as > > we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, > > when the evidence is more widely understood, it will > > convince a few more that we need to build secure > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which > > Percy called > > A Fateful Rift. > > > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing > > your attention > > to this posting Resistance is Futile > > I > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently > > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in > > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook. > > > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my > > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > ************************************** > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 > ************************************** From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Wed May 9 17:39:06 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 17:39:06 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue In-Reply-To: <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA002541454@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com> Message-ID: The process of natural selection which allows a creation to continue is the mechanism the Creator uses to create creature speciation. Man does become a unique being at the crossing of the triadic threshold. The reason we become god like is, to me, because only God and man can synthesize triadic relations.That is, God speaks the universre into being, we speak our mental, cultural world into being. The act of creation by man is indeed not the process of natural selection. God and man are creators now. Witness domesticated species and recombinant DNA creations. We indeed have dominion. We cannot finally know how we were created. "The Old Sphinx bit her thick lip, Said Who taught thee me to name? I am thy spirit yolkfellow, Of thine eye, I am eyebeam. Thou art the unanswered question, Could see thy proper eye. Always it asketh, asketh, And each answer is a lie. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, KS 66442 ----- Original Message ----- From: Tommy Armstrong Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 21:45 Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > I am not it agreement with the statement: > "The process of creation is the process of natural selection" > > An act of creation happens every time a mutation (or divine > intervention for > that matter) occurs. Billions of acts of creation in the natural > world have > occurred in the past--most simply did not continue. Natural > selection just > determines whether that act of creation is allowed to continue. > The origin > of man-which to me, and I think to Percy, came at that instant in > timewhere he became triadic in nature. At that point natural > selection ceases > to exist in the pre-human sense--the "natural world". Man becomes > a cultural > being- one that is qualitatively different than any other > inhabitant of > nature and breaks out of the linearity of natural selection. For > he then > becomes able to exist outside of the natural world, for he has the > abilityto create his own world or worlds. He has what one of my > professors termed > as a "My owness". Unlike dyadic creatures we not only create our > own worlds > but our own space and that space is not a space of an xyz > coordinate system. > But that is another discussion. > > To say that the creation of the concept of "natural selection" > itself was > created by "evolutionary chance" is I think wrong. The act of > creation by a > man is not the process of natural selection. And the fact that man > has the > ability, in fact the imperative, to create his own worlds is > because of his > acquisition of triadic "behavior". It may very well be that " > Evolutionarychance is the process by which we were created by the > Creator" , but how > does one really know? In fact, how can one know? And more to the > point, what > difference does it made if the Creator used chance or directed > action to > create us-for if one believes in a Creator--he also invented the > concept of > chance. If He did not, we did. > > > Tommy Armstrong > PO Box 484 > Lillington, NC 27546 > http://www.brickengraver.com > > ...with the method of science one beholds what is generally true about > individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely true. > > Walker Percy > Signposts in a Strange Land > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:15 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary breakthrough" > or a > "design feature" is a false one. > > Language is a feature that was created as all other features were > created. > > The process of creation is the process of natural selection. > > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were created by the > Creator. > Chance is God unrecognized. > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, KS 66442 > > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" > - Peirce > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Larson > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE > BOTTLE (p. > > 158): > > > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the greatest > > possibleconsequences for our minimal concept of man. For one > thing > > it must > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the West as not > > merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the > > Christian idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief > > which is > > professed by some and given lip service by many but which can > > hardly be > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We see man-- > > when I > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended American high > schools> and universities--as the highest of the organisms: He > stands > > erect, he > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more complex > > than that > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is > quantitative,> not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing > in direct > > continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. > > > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > > unfortunate. I > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the old dream > > of the > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal science can > > discoverand set forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. > > The dream is > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us that what > > man is > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is rather > that > > man'sscience is one of the things that man does, a mode of > > existence. Another > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding > to and > > controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's words, that > > being in > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, to give > > testimony to it, and to provide for it a clearing." > > > > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the human > > capacityfor language is what separates us from the animals. The > > Christianphilosophers, to whose work he makes implicit reference > > here, would say > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) > order and > > that God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual (non-material) > > order. But man is a middle creature, both material and spiritual > (the> highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and the > triadic> nature of language is both a material clue for this > reality and the > > means by which this composite creature (man) has access to that > > which is > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether written or > > spoken--but it allows by way of signification for consciousness and > > contemplation, which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere > > sleight of > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to describe in grand > > terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled centuries earlier, in the high > > MiddleAges, long before "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was > > even born. > > > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some > > evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique > > creature, a > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of both > > matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a clue and ultimately > a > > proof for > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the material > > world, I > > think he thought he had something that even the rationalist- > naturalist> intelligentsia would have to acknowledge. > > > > Best regards, > > Michael Larson > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John Harvey) > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > --- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > > From: > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is related > to > > > "the > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for this > > > connection? In either case, I would appreciate knowing where I > > can > > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer of the > > Self" speaks to this connection. > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the triadic > > threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability to > > synthesize the > > triadic relation between signifier and signified, linguistic > signs and > > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the Mind/Body > > Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless > > self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > > understand. > > > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in the > > Bottle also. > > > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to think > that> understanding where we come from will help us know where we > are going. > > > > Spc Robert Eckert > > 172 Chemical Corp > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Robert Eckert, List > > > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic Primer > of > > the > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and triadic > > threshold]. > > > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included in > Lost > > in > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate in the > > seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of the > > > triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the ability > > to > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and > signified, > > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we evolved > a > > > new mode of being. > > > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the > > Mind/Body > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical Quarterly. > > >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing on subjects I > > didn't > > >really understand. > > > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The Message in > > the > > >Bottle also. > > > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to > think > > >that understanding where we come from will help us know where > we are > > going. > > > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater > > emphasis > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning how to > > build > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > > understanding > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift > > properly and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That > is > > the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. > > > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to retrain my > > dyadic > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be dyadic > trees.> > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > List, > > > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the face > of > > overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract as > much > > attention to evidence of the problem as we can muster to > convince > > those in doubt. Hopefully, when the evidence is more widely > > understood, it will convince a few more that we need to build > > secure > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy > > called > > A Fateful Rift. > > > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your > > attention > > to this posting Resistance is Futile > > I > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently hosting the > > seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the Cosmos: The Last > Self- > > HelpBook. > > > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my unknowing > or > > doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > ************************************** > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Thu May 10 21:52:30 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 20:52:30 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Language is an airplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A2F75BBA3E81B448B7048A5F17E59A118640E70@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Robert Eckert states: "The process of natural selection which allows a creation to continue is the mechanism the Creator uses to create creature speciation. [...] We cannot finally know how we were created." These two statements seem to be in conflict. If we cannot know how we were created, then we can claim neither evolution in general nor natural selection in particular as the method by which God created us. Science, by its own admission and method, must derive its explanations of the universe by observable phenomena. This is good as far as it goes (as Percy often said), but it only goes so far. If we look to science for an explanation of origins, well, then evolution, with its subset of various processes (some of which are even readily observable) is an admirable theory, a valiant attempt to make sense of it all given the self-imposed handicap of allowing only material evidence. But along comes man, the symbol-mongerer, and a wrench is thrown into the evolutionary machine. And this was Percy's point: language is one of those things man does (not the only one) that cannot be explained in random-evolutionary or materialist terms. At the very least, we must acknowledge a mystery here (as I think Robert does as well). If we expand our considerations in our search for truth to include such non-material proofs as philosophy and alleged divine revelation, then we have much more to work with, and we have righted the modern inversion; spirit once again takes its place above and over matter. From the Roman Catechism (Article I), "Christian philosophy, on the contrary, so quickens the human mind that without difficulty it pierces the heavens, and, illumined with divine light, contemplates first, the eternal source of light, and in its radiance all created things." Before we are too quick to cast aside such a claim, let us remember that Percy counted himself among the recipients of Catholic Faith. And this is not something to easily dismiss. Consider his essay, "The Message in the Bottle," which centers on the idea that it is not so much the news as the news bearer that carries persuasive weight. And this merely echoes Aristotle, who claims that ethos, among the three rhetorical proofs (the other two being logos and pathos), is in fact the most influential on the rhetorical situation. In other words, we often learn what is true by our trust in who it is that tells us so. Robert goes on to state: "Man does become a unique being at the crossing of the triadic threshold. The reason we become god like is, to me, because only God and man can synthesize triadic relations.That is, God speaks the universre into being, we speak our mental, cultural world into being. The act of creation by man is indeed not the process of natural selection. God and man are creators now. Witness domesticated species and recombinant DNA creations. We indeed have dominion." It is true that we are unique among material creatures by way of language, but the function of language is strained, I think, by suggesting that it makes us co-creators. A novelist, for instance, can do no more than signify the objective creation; he cannot actually call it into being. Even Tolkien, who invented in detail the idea of Middle Earth, does not cause it to actually exist. So language is a portal through which we may leap into the non-material realm, but it is not synonymous, in and of itself, with that realm. Imagine a man, a complete amnesiac, who wakes to find himself on a deserted island, nothing but the clothes on his back and, farther down the beach, a weird metal object with wings. Day after day, he examines the object, certain that it is a clue, a key to how he got here and possibly to how he might return (whatever that might mean). Then one day, he starts it up by accident, and something clicks: he remembers that he is a pilot, and he starts making forays to neighboring islands--for communion with others (and for fuel!). He makes longer and longer flights. One day, he knows, he will have to make the longest flight of all in a calculated gamble to find his homeland. As a pilot, Percy never mistook his airplane for where he meant to go with it. Best regards, Michael Larson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From korrektiv at gmail.com Thu May 10 23:34:59 2007 From: korrektiv at gmail.com (Rufus McCain) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 20:34:59 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Lost in the Cosmos discussion Message-ID: <1329b480705102034s7e78c717pfc57e54d1d328ffc@mail.gmail.com> Dear Percy-L members: The discussion of Lost in the Cosmos continues over at the Korrektivblog: Here's the latest entry: How Queer Man Is Micheal Mikolajczak suggeststhat the three main sections of *Lost in the Cosmos* correspond to the three parts of the subtitle of *The Message in the Bottle: How Queer Man Is, How Queer Language Is, and What One Has to Do With the Other*. Perhaps that can serve as a starting point for a discussion of the the first 12 multiple-choice questions. Does this first section of *Lost in the Cosmos* succeed in outlining how queer man is (or, to avoid any giggling over the terms: how freakin' odd people are)? Do the mid-20th Century pop-culture references date the book? Have circumstances improved or worsened or changed since Percy wrote the book? How has the rise of the Internet impacted the predicament outlined by Percy in the first part of the book? In the preliminary quiz, Percy compiles a list of possible selves, or ways in which we try to fit ourselves into the world. He exempts all but the "lost" self from continuing with the book. Which of the selves in Percy's list are most popular these days? Which ones do you identify with? Have new varieties of self-concept arisen since Percy wrote? Are folks more or less likely to see themselves as lost nowadays? If any of you are reading along please drop in and leave some comments. Or pick up the discussion here on the list. Best regards, Rufus McCain Spokane WA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From armstron at ohiou.edu Fri May 11 08:36:19 2007 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 08:36:19 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Language is an airplane In-Reply-To: <0A2F75BBA3E81B448B7048A5F17E59A118640E70@wa-SEex.Southeast tech.edu> References: <0A2F75BBA3E81B448B7048A5F17E59A118640E70@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070511080945.055589d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Just a few observations interspersed. At 09:52 PM 5/10/2007, Michael Larson wrote: >Robert Eckert states: > >"The process of natural selection which allows a creation to continue is >the mechanism the Creator uses to create creature speciation. > >[...] > >We cannot finally know how we were created." > > >These two statements seem to be in conflict. If we cannot know how we were >created, then we can claim neither evolution in general nor natural >selection in particular as the method by which God created us. If evolution is established scientifically, it seems it can be subjected to the "if...then" statement that Robert makes. Observing (a triadic activity, after all) and knowing how are not necessarily the same things. I don't think he means his claim to fall under natural science. >Robert goes on to state: > >"Man does become a unique being at the crossing of the triadic threshold. > >The reason we become god like is, to me, because only God and man can >synthesize triadic relations.That is, God speaks the universre into being, >we speak our mental, cultural world into being. >It is true that we are unique among material creatures by way of language, >but the function of language is strained, I think, by suggesting that it >makes us co-creators. But the suggestion was not that we are co-creators. One creates the universe and all being, the other creates its culture. >A novelist, for instance, can do no more than signify the objective >creation; he cannot actually call it into being. Even Tolkien, who >invented in detail the idea of Middle Earth, does not cause it to actually >exist. True, but neither was that the claim. It seems as though you are fighting a straw man. Do we create? Are we unique among the creatures? If the answers are yes and we are careful to say one kind of creating is not the equal of the other, I'm not sure what the problem is. Cheers, Ken Armstrong From Nikkibar at aol.com Fri May 11 15:32:54 2007 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 15:32:54 EDT Subject: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold Message-ID: Dear Sgt Eckert, I would suggest you get a copy of Ken Ketner's A THIEF OF PEIRCE as the answer to this and other questions will come as clear as they are going to get by tracing Walker's search for the same ones in this correspondence. Nikki Barranger ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Sat May 12 14:09:56 2007 From: Mlarson at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Michael Larson) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 13:09:56 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Language is an approximation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A2F75BBA3E81B448B7048A5F17E59A118640E74@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> >Robert Eckert (RE) states: > >"The process of natural selection which allows a creation to continue is >the mechanism the Creator uses to create creature speciation. > >[...] > >We cannot finally know how we were created." > > >Michael Larson (ML): "These two statements seem to be in conflict. If we cannot know how we were >created, then we can claim neither evolution in general nor natural >selection in particular as the method by which God created us." Ken Armstrong (KA): "If evolution is established scientifically, it seems it can be subjected to the "if...then" statement that Robert makes. Observing (a triadic activity, after all) and knowing how are not necessarily the same things. I don't think he means his claim to fall under natural science." ML: I'm unclear on several things here. First, what is the "if...then" statement to which you are referring? Second, although there is certainly a difference between observing something and knowing how it is done, this does not explain the apparent contradiction between Robert's two statements. The first statement does claim certain knowledge of the how: natural selection leading to speciation. The second statement claims we cannot know the how. Which one is being asserted? And third, which of these two claims do you think is not meant to fall under natural science? Surely the first one does, so I'm guessing it must be the second? If so, maybe this explains the apparent contradiction: one of the statements emanates from natural science and the other from a kind of agnosticism? >Robert goes on to state: > >"Man does become a unique being at the crossing of the triadic threshold. > >The reason we become god like is, to me, because only God and man can >synthesize triadic relations.That is, God speaks the universre into being, >we speak our mental, cultural world into being." >ML: "It is true that we are unique among material creatures by way of language, >but the function of language is strained, I think, by suggesting that it >makes us co-creators." KA: "But the suggestion was not that we are co-creators. One creates the universe and all being, the other creates its culture." ML: But you fail to quote the rest of what I was responding to. Here is the continuation again (RE): "The act of creation by man is indeed not the process of natural selection. God and man are creators now. Witness domesticated species and recombinant DNA creations. We indeed have dominion." After Robert states that "God and man are creators now," he follows the thought with what appear to be illustrative examples of man's creation: "domesticated species and recombinant DNA creations." Aside from the fact that these things are not "cultural" creations, and in light of the sentence they follow, they seem to imply a kind of new-frontier-co-authorship of created things. This is reinforced by stating that we do indeed have dominion. >ML: "A novelist, for instance, can do no more than signify the objective >creation; he cannot actually call it into being. Even Tolkien, who >invented in detail the idea of Middle Earth, does not cause it to actually >exist." KA: "True, but neither was that the claim. It seems as though you are fighting a straw man. Do we create? Are we unique among the creatures? If the answers are yes and we are careful to say one kind of creating is not the equal of the other, I'm not sure what the problem is." Yes, I have perhaps overstated my concern, which is merely that we may be asking too much of language when we want it to be both the clue and the prize, both the means and the end; and I'm willing to concede that Sgt. Eckert may not have intended any such thing. Best regards, Michael Larson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RGray at montreat.edu Sat May 12 19:17:12 2007 From: RGray at montreat.edu (Gray, Rich) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 19:17:12 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Elie [Eliezer] Wiezel's Night References: <0A2F75BBA3E81B448B7048A5F17E59A118640E74@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <3FE19AF0B946EE4D8FAB89F9F1159F4C0B8FBC@e3kmail.montreat.edu> List, I just for the first time read Elie Wiezel's Night. It was lying around the public library as a "new book" since it was re-translated in 2006. It had orignally been published in 1958. Having heard talk about it for the last 30 years, my reading of it was prefaced. Yet I still got quite a shove off of equilibrium. My questions for you are: 1. What did Walker Percy know about Night? 2. What kind of college courses might Night fit into well? Rich Gray -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3414 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Sun May 13 14:23:44 2007 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 14:23:44 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Elie [Eliezer] Wiezel's Night Message-ID: I never heard Walker discuss NIGHT although he certainly knew about Wiesel. If he had it in his library it would have gone with the rest of the books to UNC chapel Hill and you might want to consult the inventory there. Perhaps Fr. Samway can shed some light on the question. Walker's reading knowledge of German was pretty good in '58. Nikki Barranger ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Mon May 14 21:11:09 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 21:11:09 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Language is an airplane Message-ID: Natural selection is a scientific hypothesis and being such it is not a claim to creation knowledge, as analytic statement 2+2=4, but is rather a synthetic statement. A scientific hypothesis is subject to an endless process of verification by a community of knowers. Therefor, there is no finality to scientific knowing as is with knowing through faith. Faith is yet another form of knowledge. Faith and reason are two distinct ways of knowing. This distinction is discussed on JPII's "Fides et ratio" and Kierkegaard's "The Difference Between a Genius and an Apostle." Ken s correct when he distinguishes between forms of creating. God's is "creatio ex nihilo." Human creations are the result of imposing arbitrary form upon creation. We create in our conception, then impose our mental creations on the physical environment by rearranging nature. Domesticated species and recombinant DNA creations are "cultural" in the anthropological sense. The anthropological definition of culture is the imposition of arbitrary form upon the environment. The archaeological evidence of this imposition of arbitrary form -- symbols, clothing, ect. is evidence of our having crossed the triadic threshold. Language is the most pervasive symbol system. Other symbol systems, mathematics, alphabets, have given us even greater power to rearrange nature to our will. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, K 66442 BTW -- Spc is E-4, Sgt is E-5 (Soon, but not yet.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Larson Date: Thursday, May 10, 2007 21:52 Subject: [percy-l] Language is an airplane To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Robert Eckert states: > > "The process of natural selection which allows a creation to > continue is the mechanism the Creator uses to create creature > speciation. > [...] > > We cannot finally know how we were created." > > > These two statements seem to be in conflict. If we cannot know how > we were created, then we can claim neither evolution in general > nor natural selection in particular as the method by which God > created us. Science, by its own admission and method, must derive > its explanations of the universe by observable phenomena. This is > good as far as it goes (as Percy often said), but it only goes so > far. If we look to science for an explanation of origins, well, > then evolution, with its subset of various processes (some of > which are even readily observable) is an admirable theory, a > valiant attempt to make sense of it all given the self-imposed > handicap of allowing only material evidence. But along comes man, > the symbol-mongerer, and a wrench is thrown into the evolutionary > machine. And this was Percy's point: language is one of those > things man does (not the only one) that cannot be explained in > random-evolutionary or materialist terms. At the very least, we > must acknowledge a mystery here (as I think Robert does as well). > > If we expand our considerations in our search for truth to include > such non-material proofs as philosophy and alleged divine > revelation, then we have much more to work with, and we have > righted the modern inversion; spirit once again takes its place > above and over matter. From the Roman Catechism (Article I), > "Christian philosophy, on the contrary, so quickens the human mind > that without difficulty it pierces the heavens, and, illumined > with divine light, contemplates first, the eternal source of > light, and in its radiance all created things." Before we are too > quick to cast aside such a claim, let us remember that Percy > counted himself among the recipients of Catholic Faith. And this > is not something to easily dismiss. Consider his essay, "The > Message in the Bottle," which centers on the idea that it is not > so much the news as the news bearer that carries persuasive > weight. And this merely echoes Aristotle, who claims that ethos, > among the three rhetorical proofs (the other two being logos and > pathos), is in fact the most influential on the rhetorical > situation. In other words, we often learn what is true by our > trust in who it is that tells us so. > > > Robert goes on to state: > > "Man does become a unique being at the crossing of the triadic > threshold. > > The reason we become god like is, to me, because only God and man > can synthesize triadic relations.That is, God speaks the universre > into being, we speak our mental, cultural world into being. > > The act of creation by man is indeed not the process of natural > selection. God and man are creators now. Witness domesticated > species and recombinant DNA creations. > > We indeed have dominion." > > > It is true that we are unique among material creatures by way of > language, but the function of language is strained, I think, by > suggesting that it makes us co-creators. A novelist, for instance, > can do no more than signify the objective creation; he cannot > actually call it into being. Even Tolkien, who invented in detail > the idea of Middle Earth, does not cause it to actually exist. > > So language is a portal through which we may leap into the non- > material realm, but it is not synonymous, in and of itself, with > that realm. Imagine a man, a complete amnesiac, who wakes to find > himself on a deserted island, nothing but the clothes on his back > and, farther down the beach, a weird metal object with wings. Day > after day, he examines the object, certain that it is a clue, a > key to how he got here and possibly to how he might return > (whatever that might mean). Then one day, he starts it up by > accident, and something clicks: he remembers that he is a pilot, > and he starts making forays to neighboring islands--for communion > with others (and for fuel!). He makes longer and longer flights. > One day, he knows, he will have to make the longest flight of all > in a calculated gamble to find his homeland. > > As a pilot, Percy never mistook his airplane for where he meant to > go with it. > > Best regards, > Michael Larson > From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Mon May 14 22:03:46 2007 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 19:03:46 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <4641d293.bb.145014.20497@loyno.edu> Message-ID: I've emerged from under the end of semester essays to find you all engaged in lively and interesting discussion--seems like the best things always happen when I'm out of the room, so to speak. I find it necessary to make a simple distinction: the continual reference to speaking undershoots Walker's mark. After all, honey bees speak to each other when they communicate the location of the latest load of pollen. The difference is, their communication is dyadic, as is that of penguins, who find each other by the sound of the voice, and, I suspect, dolphins and whales. What creates the triadic phenomena is symbolizing, which we utter with our voices and create in our art. It is that which sets us apart--that we exist so much of the time within a sort of metaphoric soup (one made of metaphors, I mean). And this, in the end, is tied to words which represent for us the world both material and spiritual. This leads me to a final point, regarding the discussion of creation -- I'm not sure we can assume that all agree with creatio ex nihilo -- what of those who hold with the doctrine of creatio ex deo? And, one last thing: In the beginning was God and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. I don't think the language is an accident, as it is consistently translated in the same fashion. So, if all things were created in part through the use of language "let there be light" etc, then the argument that it is through our language that we arc toward the divine is sound, presupposing that we also have faith. --Rhonda "I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance" e.e. cummings >From: "Marcus" >Reply-To: marcus at loyno.edu,"Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 >Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 08:54:27 -0500 > >Michael Larson states: > >"Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some >evolutionary >breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique >creature, a >creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of >both matter >and spirit." > >Doesn't this really excellent discussion lead us to revise >slightly: > >"Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some >evolutionary >breakthrough but rather a design feature in a unique >creature, a >creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those of >both matter >and SPEAKING." > >Marcus Smith >New Orleans > > > >----- Original Message Follows ----- >From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 >Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 21:45:42 -0400 > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Language is a clue (Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu) > > 2. Re: Language is a clue (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > 3. Re: Language is a clue (Tommy Armstrong) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 11:00:02 -0700 > > From: > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > To: , > > Message-ID: > > <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE300124E3 at MSGSRV2.rccd.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Thank you, Michael, for that pithy clarification of what I > > consider to be Percy's most significant contribution to > > the existentialist--or perhaps more precisely, the > > human--dilemma. > > > > > > > > I'm currently working on my dissertation, a study of the > > construct of race in Percy's novels. The dissertation > > calls upon African American studies as well as > > post-colonial studies in order to discern and/or to > > illustrate how our peculiar notions of American > > "whiteness" tie directly to what Toni Morrison refers to > > as an "Africanist presence." (It's the only way I could > > get away with devoting the entire dissertation to Percy, > > but it really does make for a fascinating study.) All of > > this to explain why I've been lurking rather than engaging > > in the conversations for the few months in which I've been > > aware of this list. I'd love to participate more, but, > > well, I'm writing a dissertation... > > > > > > > > I did have to take the opportunity, though, to thank > > Michael for his insightful and evocative explanation of > > this cornerstone of Percian thought. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > Tammy DiBenedetto > > > > Tammy DiBenedetto > > Associate Professor, English > > Riverside City College > > 4800 Magnolia Avenue > > Riverside, CA 92506 > > 951.222.8271 > > > > > > Pe > > rcy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Michael > > Larson Sent: Tue 5/8/2007 7:46 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > > > > > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN THE > > BOTTLE (p. 158): > > > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the > > greatest possible consequences for our minimal concept of > > man. For one thing it must reveal the ordinary secular > > concept of man held in the West as not merely inadequate > > but quite simply mistaken. I do not refer to the Christian > > idea of man as a composite of body and soul, a belief > > which is professed by some and given lip service by many > > but which can hardly be said to be a working assumption of > > secular learning. We see man--when I say we, I mean 95 per > > cent of those who attended American high schools and > > universities--as the highest of the organisms: He stands > > erect, he apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is > > far more complex than that of the most advanced Cebus > > azarae. But the difference is quantitative, not > > qualitative. Man is a higher organism, standing in direct > > continuity with rocks, soil, fungi, protozoa, and mammals. > > > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > > unfortunate. I say unfortunate because it means the > > shattering of the old dream of the Enlightenment--that an > > objective-explanatory-causal science can discover and set > > forth all the knowledge of which man is capable. The dream > > is drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us > > that what man is cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. > > The case is rather that man's science is one of the things > > that man does, a mode of existence. Another mode is > > speech. Man is not merely a higher organism responding to > > and controlling his environment. He is, in Heidegger's > > words, that being in the world whose calling it is to find > > a name for Being, to give testimony to it, and to provide > > for it a clearing." > > > > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that the > > human capacity for language is what separates us from the > > animals. The Christian philosophers, to whose work he > > makes implicit reference here, would say that the animals > > are of an entirely material (thus, dyadic) order and that > > God and the angels are of an entirely spiritual > > (non-material) order. But man is a middle creature, both > > material and spiritual (the highest of the former and the > > lowest of the latter), and the triadic nature of language > > is both a material clue for this reality and the means by > > which this composite creature (man) has access to that > > which is higher. Language itself is always > > material--whether written or spoken--but it allows by way > > of signification for consciousness and contemplation, > > which is of the spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled > > centuries earlier, in the high Middle Ages, long before > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. > > > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be some > > evolutionary breakthrough but rather a design feature in a > > unique creature, a creature whose nature must accommodate > > two realms: those of both matter and spirit. Language, for > > Percy, was a clue and ultimately a proof for the spiritual > > order; and because it is rooted in the material world, I > > think he thought he had something that even the > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to > > acknowledge. > > > > Best regards, > > Michael Larson > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John > > Harvey) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > > From: > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is > > > related to "the > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources for > > > this connection? In either case, I would appreciate > > > knowing where I can get more information on these ideas. > > > > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved the > > ability to synthesize the triadic relation between > > signifier and signified, linguistic signs and their > > referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and the > > Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical > > Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive writing > > on subjects I didn't really understand. > > > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > Message in the Bottle also. > > > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have to > > think that understanding where we come from will help us > > know where we are going. > > > > Spc Robert Eckert > > 172 Chemical Corp > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Robert Eckert, List > > > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > Primer of the >Self" speaks to this connection [between > > symbol use and triadic threshold]. > > > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is included > > in Lost in the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could > > participate in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing > > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain > > > evolved the ability to synthesize the triadic relation > > > between signifier and signified, linguistic signs and > > > their referents. At that point we evolved a new mode of > > being. > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > the Mind/Body >Problem' June 1999 International > > Philosophical Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't >really > > understand. > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > Message in the >Bottle also. > > > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > to think >that understanding where we come from will help > > us know where we are going. > > > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put greater > > emphasis on our future. I believe that THE question is > > learning how to build secure bridges across Percy's > > Fateful Rift. Of course, understanding the triadic > > threshold is necessary for interpreting this rift properly > > and building secure bridges on a firm foundation. That is > > the reason I am trying to get a handle on your comments. > > > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to > > retrain my dyadic eyes to see the triadic forest through > > what appear to be dyadic trees. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/3502d283 > > /attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > > From: John Harvey > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > List, > > > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in the > > face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to attract > > as much attention to evidence of the problem as we can > > muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, when the > > evidence is more widely understood, it will convince a few > > more that we need to build secure bridges across the > > Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which Percy called A > > Fateful Rift. > > > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing your > > attention to this posting Resistance is Futile > > > l> I believe it is a sign that concern is alive and > > growing. > > > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently > > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in the > > Cosmos: The Last Self-Help Book. > > > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my > > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > > > Respectfully, > > > > John > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8 > > /attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > ************************************** > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:14:36 -0500 > > From: > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary > > breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. > > > > Language is a feature that was created as all other > > features were created. > > > > The process of creation is the process of natural > > selection. > > > > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were > > created by the Creator. > > > > Chance is God unrecognized. > > > > Spc Robert Eckert > > 172 Chemical Corp > > Ft. Riley, KS 66442 > > > > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" > > - Peirce > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Michael Larson > > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 > > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > > > > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN > > > THE BOTTLE (p. 158): > > > > > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the > > > greatest possibleconsequences for our minimal concept > > > of man. For one thing it must > > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the > > > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. > > > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a > > > composite of body and soul, a belief which is > > > professed by some and given lip service by many but > > > which can hardly be > > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We > > > see man-- when I > > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended > > > American high schools and universities--as the highest > > > of the organisms: He stands erect, he > > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more > > > complex than that > > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is > > > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, > > > standing in direct continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, > > > protozoa, and mammals. > > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > > > unfortunate. I > > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the > > > old dream of the > > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal > > > science can discoverand set forth all the knowledge of > > > which man is capable. The dream is > > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us > > > that what man is > > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is > > > rather that man'sscience is one of the things that man > > > does, a mode of existence. Another > > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism > > > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in > > > Heidegger's words, that being in > > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, > > > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a > > > clearing." > > > > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that > > > the human capacityfor language is what separates us > > > from the animals. The Christianphilosophers, to whose > > > work he makes implicit reference here, would say > > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, > > > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an > > > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a > > > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the > > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and > > > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue > > > for this reality and the means by which this composite > > > creature (man) has access to that which is > > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether > > > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification > > > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the > > > spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of > > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to > > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled > > > centuries earlier, in the high MiddleAges, long before > > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. > > > > > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be > > > some evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design > > > feature in a unique creature, a > > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those > > > of both matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a > > > clue and ultimately a proof for > > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the > > > material world, I > > > think he thought he had something that even the > > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to > > > acknowledge. > > > Best regards, > > > Michael Larson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > > > 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John > > > Harvey) > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > --------- --- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > > > From: > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > > > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is > > > > related to "the > > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources > > > > for this connection? In either case, I would > > > appreciate knowing where I can > > > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > > > > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. > > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of > > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved > > > the ability to synthesize the > > > triadic relation between signifier and signified, > > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we > > > evolved a new mode of being. > > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International > > > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] > > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > > > understand. > > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > > Message in the Bottle also. > > > > > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > > to think that understanding where we come from will help > > > us know where we are going. > > > Spc Robert Eckert > > > 172 Chemical Corp > > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > > > From: John Harvey > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Robert Eckert, List > > > > > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > > > > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > > Primer of the > > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and > > > triadic threshold]. > > > > > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is > > > included in Lost in > > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate > > > in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing > > > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain > > > evolved the ability to > > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and > > > > signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At > > > > that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > > > > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > > the Mind/Body > > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical > > > Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive > > > writing on subjects I didn't > > > >really understand. > > > > > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > > Message in the > > > >Bottle also. > > > > > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > > to think >that understanding where we come from will > > > help us know where we are going. > > > > > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put > > > greater emphasis > > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning > > > how to build > > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > > > understanding > > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this > > > rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm > > > foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a > > > handle on your comments. > > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to > > > retrain my dyadic > > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be > > > dyadic trees. > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > John > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > > > From: John Harvey > > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is > > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > > Discussion" > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > List, > > > > > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in > > > the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > > > > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to > > > attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as > > > we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, > > > when the evidence is more widely understood, it will > > > convince a few more that we need to build secure > > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which > > > Percy called > > > A Fateful Rift. > > > > > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing > > > your attention > > > to this posting Resistance is Futile > > > I > > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > > > > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently > > > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in > > > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook. > > > > > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my > > > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > John > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Percy-L mailing list > > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > ************************************** > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 21:45:08 -0400 > > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > > > Message-ID: <00f401c791db$ad39cc20$07ad6460$@com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > I am not it agreement with the statement: > > "The process of creation is the process of natural > > selection" > > > > An act of creation happens every time a mutation (or > > divine intervention for that matter) occurs. Billions of > > acts of creation in the natural world have occurred in the > > past--most simply did not continue. Natural selection just > > determines whether that act of creation is allowed to > > continue. The origin of man-which to me, and I think to > > Percy, came at that instant in time where he became > > triadic in nature. At that point natural selection ceases > > to exist in the pre-human sense--the "natural world". Man > > becomes a cultural being- one that is qualitatively > > different than any other inhabitant of nature and breaks > > out of the linearity of natural selection. For he then > > becomes able to exist outside of the natural world, for he > > has the ability to create his own world or worlds. He has > > what one of my professors termed as a "My owness". Unlike > > dyadic creatures we not only create our own worlds but our > > own space and that space is not a space of an xyz > > coordinate system. But that is another discussion. > > > > To say that the creation of the concept of "natural > > selection" itself was created by "evolutionary chance" is > > I think wrong. The act of creation by a man is not the > > process of natural selection. And the fact that man has > > the ability, in fact the imperative, to create his own > > worlds is because of his acquisition of triadic > > "behavior". It may very well be that " Evolutionary chance > > is the process by which we were created by the Creator" , > > but how does one really know? In fact, how can one know? > > And more to the point, what difference does it made if the > > Creator used chance or directed action to create us-for if > > one believes in a Creator--he also invented the concept of > > chance. If He did not, we did. > > > > > > Tommy Armstrong > > PO Box 484 > > Lillington, NC 27546 > > http://www.brickengraver.com > > > > ..with the method of science one beholds what is generally > > true about individuals, but art beholds what is uniquely > > true. > > > > Walker Percy > > Signposts in a Strange Land > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:15 PM > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > > > The conflict between language being an "evolutionary > > breakthrough" or a "design feature" is a false one. > > > > Language is a feature that was created as all other > > features were created. > > > > The process of creation is the process of natural > > selection. > > > > Evolutionary chance is the process by which we were > > created by the Creator. > > > > Chance is God unrecognized. > > > > Spc Robert Eckert > > 172 Chemical Corp > > Ft. Riley, KS 66442 > > > > "Faith requires us to be materialists without flinching" > > - Peirce > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Michael Larson > > Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2007 9:46 > > Subject: [percy-l] Language is a clue > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > Dear John, Robert, and others, > > > > > > This is from "The Mystery of Language," THE MESSAGE IN > > > THE BOTTLE (p. 158): > > > > > > "An awareness of the nature of language must have the > > > greatest possibleconsequences for our minimal concept > > > of man. For one thing it must > > > reveal the ordinary secular concept of man held in the > > > West as not merely inadequate but quite simply mistaken. > > > I do not refer to the Christian idea of man as a > > > composite of body and soul, a belief which is > > > professed by some and given lip service by many but > > > which can hardly be > > > said to be a working assumption of secular learning. We > > > see man-- when I > > > say we, I mean 95 per cent of those who attended > > > American high schools and universities--as the highest > > > of the organisms: He stands erect, he > > > apposes thumb and forefinger, his language is far more > > > complex than that > > > of the most advanced Cebus azarae. But the difference is > > > quantitative, not qualitative. Man is a higher organism, > > > standing in direct continuitywith rocks, soil, fungi, > > > protozoa, and mammals. > > > This happens not to be true, however, and in a way it is > > > unfortunate. I > > > say unfortunate because it means the shattering of the > > > old dream of the > > > Enlightenment--that an objective-explanatory-causal > > > science can discoverand set forth all the knowledge of > > > which man is capable. The dream is > > > drawing to a close. The existentialists have taught us > > > that what man is > > > cannot be grasped by the sciences of man. The case is > > > rather that man'sscience is one of the things that man > > > does, a mode of existence. Another > > > mode is speech. Man is not merely a higher organism > > > responding to and controlling his environment. He is, in > > > Heidegger's words, that being in > > > the world whose calling it is to find a name for Being, > > > to give testimony to it, and to provide for it a > > > clearing." > > > > > > So Percy argues here, as he does in many places, that > > > the human capacityfor language is what separates us > > > from the animals. The Christianphilosophers, to whose > > > work he makes implicit reference here, would say > > > that the animals are of an entirely material (thus, > > > dyadic) order and that God and the angels are of an > > > entirely spiritual (non-material) order. But man is a > > > middle creature, both material and spiritual (the > > highest of the former and the lowest of the latter), and > > > the triadic nature of language is both a material clue > > > for this reality and the means by which this composite > > > creature (man) has access to that which is > > > higher. Language itself is always material--whether > > > written or spoken--but it allows by way of signification > > > for consciousness and contemplation, which is of the > > > spiritual order. And by a mere sleight of > > > words, Percy gets an existentialist, Heidegger, to > > > describe in grand terms, what Aquinas had fulfilled > > > centuries earlier, in the high MiddleAges, long before > > > "the old dream of the Enlightenment" was even born. > > > > > > Which is all to say that language is not likely to be > > > some evolutionarybreakthrough but rather a design > > > feature in a unique creature, a > > > creature whose nature must accommodate two realms: those > > > of both matterand spirit. Language, for Percy, was a > > > clue and ultimately a proof for > > > the spiritual order; and because it is rooted in the > > > material world, I > > > think he thought he had something that even the > > > rationalist-naturalist intelligentsia would have to > > > acknowledge. > > > Best regards, > > > Michael Larson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:00 AM > > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > > visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > > > 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > > (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) > > > 2. Re: The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold (John Harvey) > > > 3. Resistance is Futile, The Machine is Us/ing Us (John > > > Harvey) > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > --------- --- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 18:42:48 -0600 > > > From: > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Harvey asks: > > > > > > > How does Percy explicitly suggest that symbol use is > > > > related to "the > > > > triadic threshold?" Or, are there secondary sources > > > > for this connection? In either case, I would > > > appreciate knowing where I can > > > > get more information on these ideas. > > > > > > > > > > I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > > Primer of the Self" speaks to this connection. > > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing of > > > the triadic threshold. At some point our brain evolved > > > the ability to synthesize the > > > triadic relation between signifier and signified, > > > linguistic signs and their referents. At that point we > > > evolved a new mode of being. > > > I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > > the Mind/Body Problem' June 1999 International > > > Philosophical Quarterly. [shameless self-promotion] > > > Pretty naive writing on subjects I didn't really > > > understand. > > > I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > > Message in the Bottle also. > > > > > > This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > > to think that understanding where we come from will help > > > us know where we are going. > > > Spc Robert Eckert > > > 172 Chemical Corp > > > Ft. Riley, Kansas 66442 > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 07:10:17 -0500 > > > From: John Harvey > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] The Naked Ape's Triadic Threshold > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Robert Eckert, List > > > > > > At 06:42 PM 5/5/2007 -0600, Spc Robert Eckert wrote: > > > > > > >I'm going on memory here-- I'm pretty sure "A Semiotic > > > Primer of the > > > >Self" speaks to this connection [between symbol use and > > > triadic threshold]. > > > > > > A quick Google search revealed that this essay is > > > included in Lost in > > > the Cosmos which I just ordered so I could participate > > > in the seminar/discussion at www.korrekiv.org. > > > > > > > The origin of symbol use is identical to the crossing > > > > of the triadic threshold. At some point our brain > > > evolved the ability to > > > > synthesize the triadic relation between signifier and > > > > signified, linguistic signs and their referents. At > > > > that point we evolved a new mode of being. > > > > > > > >I tried dealing with this subject in "Walker Percy and > > > the Mind/Body > > > >Problem' June 1999 International Philosophical > > > Quarterly. >[shameless self-promotion] Pretty naive > > > writing on subjects I didn't > > > >really understand. > > > > > > > >I know Percy deals with the subject in essays in The > > > Message in the > > > >Bottle also. > > > > > > > >This triadic threshold question is THE question. I have > > > to think >that understanding where we come from will > > > help us know where we are going. > > > > > > Although I agree with your sentiments, I would put > > > greater emphasis > > > on our future. I believe that THE question is learning > > > how to build > > > secure bridges across Percy's Fateful Rift. Of course, > > > understanding > > > the triadic threshold is necessary for interpreting this > > > rift properly and building secure bridges on a firm > > > foundation. That is the reason I am trying to get a > > > handle on your comments. > > > Thanks for your suggestions. I am just beginning to > > > retrain my dyadic > > > eyes to see the triadic forest through what appear to be > > > dyadic trees. > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > John > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > > l/attachments/20070506/3502d283/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 08:39:17 -0500 > > > From: John Harvey > > > Subject: [percy-l] Resistance is Futile, The Machine is > > > Us/ing Us To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical > > > Discussion" > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > List, > > > > > > As I've said many times, "I'm a perennial optimist in > > > the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary." > > > > > > However, I also believe that we optimists need to > > > attract as much attention to evidence of the problem as > > > we can muster to convince those in doubt. Hopefully, > > > when the evidence is more widely understood, it will > > > convince a few more that we need to build secure > > > bridges across the Peircean triadic/dyadic divide which > > > Percy called > > > A Fateful Rift. > > > > > > At the risk of preaching to the choir, I am directing > > > your attention > > > to this posting Resistance is Futile > > > I > > > believe it is a sign that concern is alive and growing. > > > > > > BTW www.korrektiv.org is the blog that is currently > > > hosting the seminar/discussion about Percy's Lost in > > > the Cosmos: The Last Self- HelpBook. > > > > > > I am also recommending these signposts to some of my > > > unknowing or doubting friends who need to be nudged. > > > > > > Respectfully, > > > > > > John > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy- > > > l/attachments/20070506/547dfae8/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Percy-L mailing list > > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 4 > > > ************************************** > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 > > ************************************** >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storage?get 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 From Nikkibar at aol.com Tue May 15 14:05:24 2007 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:05:24 EDT Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 Message-ID: In my view the jury is still out on the cetatian language. Walker always held with Rhonda's position, but I constantly argued with him about it. Temple Grandin's lovely little book ANIMALS IN TRANSLATION adds a bit to my position and I suspect that time will build on many of her hypotheses. Nikki Barranger ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Tue May 15 19:11:44 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 18:11:44 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Language is an airplane [correction] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Should read: Natural selection is a scientific hypothesis and being such is not a claim to certain knowledge. An analytic statement like 2+2=4 is a claim to certain knowledge. The first statement is a synthetic statement about which we can never achieve a finality of certainty. I need to be more careful before I hit send. Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, KS 66442 ----- Original Message ----- From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Date: Monday, May 14, 2007 20:11 Subject: Re: [percy-l] Language is an airplane To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > Natural selection is a scientific hypothesis and being such it is > not a claim to creation knowledge, as analytic statement 2+2=4, > but is rather a synthetic statement. A scientific hypothesis is > subject to an endless process of verification by a community of > knowers. Therefor, there is no finality to scientific knowing as > is with knowing through faith. > > Faith is yet another form of knowledge. Faith and reason are two > distinct ways of knowing. This distinction is discussed on JPII's > "Fides et ratio" and Kierkegaard's "The Difference Between a > Genius and an Apostle." > > Ken s correct when he distinguishes between forms of creating. > God's is "creatio ex nihilo." Human creations are the result of > imposing arbitrary form upon creation. We create in our > conception, then impose our mental creations on the physical > environment by rearranging nature. > > Domesticated species and recombinant DNA creations are "cultural" > in the anthropological sense. The anthropological definition of > culture is the imposition of arbitrary form upon the environment. > The archaeological evidence of this imposition of arbitrary form -- > symbols, clothing, ect. is evidence of our having crossed the > triadic threshold. > > Language is the most pervasive symbol system. Other symbol > systems, mathematics, alphabets, have given us even greater power > to rearrange nature to our will. > > > Spc Robert Eckert > 172 Chemical Corp > Ft. Riley, K 66442 > > > BTW -- Spc is E-4, Sgt is E-5 (Soon, but not yet.) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Larson > Date: Thursday, May 10, 2007 21:52 > Subject: [percy-l] Language is an airplane > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Robert Eckert states: > > > > "The process of natural selection which allows a creation to > > continue is the mechanism the Creator uses to create creature > > speciation. > > [...] > > > > We cannot finally know how we were created." > > > > > > These two statements seem to be in conflict. If we cannot know > how > > we were created, then we can claim neither evolution in general > > nor natural selection in particular as the method by which God > > created us. Science, by its own admission and method, must > derive > > its explanations of the universe by observable phenomena. This > is > > good as far as it goes (as Percy often said), but it only goes > so > > far. If we look to science for an explanation of origins, well, > > then evolution, with its subset of various processes (some of > > which are even readily observable) is an admirable theory, a > > valiant attempt to make sense of it all given the self-imposed > > handicap of allowing only material evidence. But along comes > man, > > the symbol-mongerer, and a wrench is thrown into the > evolutionary > > machine. And this was Percy's point: language is one of those > > things man does (not the only one) that cannot be explained in > > random-evolutionary or materialist terms. At the very least, we > > must acknowledge a mystery here (as I think Robert does as well). > > > > If we expand our considerations in our search for truth to > include > > such non-material proofs as philosophy and alleged divine > > revelation, then we have much more to work with, and we have > > righted the modern inversion; spirit once again takes its place > > above and over matter. From the Roman Catechism (Article I), > > "Christian philosophy, on the contrary, so quickens the human > mind > > that without difficulty it pierces the heavens, and, illumined > > with divine light, contemplates first, the eternal source of > > light, and in its radiance all created things." Before we are > too > > quick to cast aside such a claim, let us remember that Percy > > counted himself among the recipients of Catholic Faith. And this > > is not something to easily dismiss. Consider his essay, "The > > Message in the Bottle," which centers on the idea that it is not > > so much the news as the news bearer that carries persuasive > > weight. And this merely echoes Aristotle, who claims that ethos, > > among the three rhetorical proofs (the other two being logos and > > pathos), is in fact the most influential on the rhetorical > > situation. In other words, we often learn what is true by our > > trust in who it is that tells us so. > > > > > > Robert goes on to state: > > > > "Man does become a unique being at the crossing of the triadic > > threshold. > > > > The reason we become god like is, to me, because only God and > man > > can synthesize triadic relations.That is, God speaks the > universre > > into being, we speak our mental, cultural world into being. > > > > The act of creation by man is indeed not the process of natural > > selection. God and man are creators now. Witness domesticated > > species and recombinant DNA creations. > > > > We indeed have dominion." > > > > > > It is true that we are unique among material creatures by way of > > language, but the function of language is strained, I think, by > > suggesting that it makes us co-creators. A novelist, for > instance, > > can do no more than signify the objective creation; he cannot > > actually call it into being. Even Tolkien, who invented in > detail > > the idea of Middle Earth, does not cause it to actually exist. > > > > So language is a portal through which we may leap into the non- > > material realm, but it is not synonymous, in and of itself, with > > that realm. Imagine a man, a complete amnesiac, who wakes to > find > > himself on a deserted island, nothing but the clothes on his > back > > and, farther down the beach, a weird metal object with wings. > Day > > after day, he examines the object, certain that it is a clue, a > > key to how he got here and possibly to how he might return > > (whatever that might mean). Then one day, he starts it up by > > accident, and something clicks: he remembers that he is a pilot, > > and he starts making forays to neighboring islands--for > communion > > with others (and for fuel!). He makes longer and longer flights. > > One day, he knows, he will have to make the longest flight of > all > > in a calculated gamble to find his homeland. > > > > As a pilot, Percy never mistook his airplane for where he meant > to > > go with it. > > > > Best regards, > > Michael Larson > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From armstron at ohiou.edu Wed May 16 11:00:57 2007 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:00:57 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20070516105947.055e8010@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Just the same, I don't think any cetatian will ever utter, "Oh, I wish I'd have thought of that." Cheers, Ken A. At 02:05 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: >In my view the jury is still out on the cetatian language. Walker always >held with Rhonda's position, but I constantly argued with him about it. >Temple Grandin's lovely little book ANIMALS IN TRANSLATION adds a bit to >my position and I suspect that time will build on many of her hypotheses. > >Nikki Barranger > > > > >---------- >See what's free at AOL.com. >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Wed May 16 19:51:03 2007 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:51:03 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20070516105947.055e8010@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20070516105947.055e8010@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: But bottled nosed dolphins may be a domesticated species? Spc Robert Eckert 172 Chemical Corp Ft. Riley, KS 66442 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Armstrong Date: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:01 Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 48, Issue 7 To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > Just the same, I don't think any cetatian will ever utter, "Oh, I > wish I'd > have thought of that." > > Cheers, > Ken A. > > At 02:05 PM 5/15/2007, you wrote: > >In my view the jury is still out on the cetatian language. Walker > always > >held with Rhonda's position, but I constantly argued with him > about it. > >Temple Grandin's lovely little book ANIMALS IN TRANSLATION adds a > bit to > >my position and I suspect that time will build on many of her > hypotheses.> > >Nikki Barranger > > > > > > > > > >---------- > >See what's free at > AOL.com.>-- > >An archive of all list discussion is available at > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From karey at kareyperkins.com Tue May 29 10:55:46 2007 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:55:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA Message-ID: <002101c7a201$70647fd0$6401a8c0@Karey> Hi all - Regarding the Walker Pecy session at SAMLA: I received some e-mails indicating interest and ideas, but only one abstract for a paper - deadline is May 31, so if you're interested, let me know, or we'll have to cancel the session! : ( I'd like to see Percy at SAMLA! More information and orginal e-mail is below - the topic is flexible, just about Percy "today"! If interested, send it to me at my home address: karey1 at charter.net Karey Percy fellows: I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South Atlantic Modern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking papers on the topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough to fit many different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but somehow is not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May 31. The SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org From karey at kareyperkins.com Tue May 29 10:57:53 2007 From: karey at kareyperkins.com (Karey) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 10:57:53 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA Message-ID: <002601c7a201$bc8e5520$6401a8c0@Karey> Hi all - Regarding the Walker Pecy session at SAMLA: I received some e-mails indicating interest and ideas, but only one abstract for a paper - deadline is May 31, so if you're interested, let me know, or we'll have to cancel the session! : ( I'd like to see Percy at SAMLA! More information and orginal e-mail is below - the topic is flexible, just about Percy "today"! If interested, send it to me at my home address: karey1 at charter.net Karey Percy fellows: I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South Atlantic Modern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking papers on the topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough to fit many different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but somehow is not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May 31. The SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org From Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu Tue May 29 14:26:42 2007 From: Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu (Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:26:42 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA In-Reply-To: <002601c7a201$bc8e5520$6401a8c0@Karey> Message-ID: <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE30037BC5@MSGSRV2.rccd.net> Hi Karey, Let me first offer my best wishes on the speedy completion of your dissertation. I, too, am in the process of completing my dissertation-a study of race relations in Percy's works-so I have a good idea what you're going through. The first chapter of my dissertation-a study of the "Africanist presence" in The Moviegoer and its relationship to the establishment of white American identity, might work well for the conference session. I'm attaching an abstract (of sorts; it's actually a couple of paragraphs from the Intro. to the dissertation) to give you an idea of what I'm up to. Although my dissertation offers a study of race and race relations in all of Percy's novels, the chapter on The Moviegoer is one I'm happiest with, though the chapter on Love in the Ruins is also pretty well fleshed out, it's pretty much a rehash of what's been said before. The analysis of race in The Moviegoer offers a few new points on race that (as far as I know) haven't yet been discussed. Thanks for organizing this session. I certainly hope it materializes. All my best, Tammy DiBenedetto Tammy DiBenedetto Associate Professor, English Riverside Community College 4800 Magnolia Avenue Riverside, CA 92506 (951) 222-8271 -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 AM To: 'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion' Subject: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA Hi all - Regarding the Walker Pecy session at SAMLA: I received some e-mails indicating interest and ideas, but only one abstract for a paper - deadline is May 31, so if you're interested, let me know, or we'll have to cancel the session! : ( I'd like to see Percy at SAMLA! More information and orginal e-mail is below - the topic is flexible, just about Percy "today"! If interested, send it to me at my home address: karey1 at charter.net Karey Percy fellows: I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South Atlantic Modern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking papers on the topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough to fit many different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but somehow is not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May 31. The SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org < http://www.samla.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAMLA conference abstract.doc Type: application/msword Size: 25600 bytes Desc: SAMLA conference abstract.doc URL: From Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu Tue May 29 14:28:29 2007 From: Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu (Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 11:28:29 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA In-Reply-To: <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE30037BC5@MSGSRV2.rccd.net> Message-ID: <356EF64B3DA9A640BE06A772C985DE30037BC6@MSGSRV2.rccd.net> Sorry list members. I didn't realize I was replying "To All." Please disregard the earlier post. Tammy Tammy DiBenedetto Associate Professor, English Riverside Community College 4800 Magnolia Avenue Riverside, CA 92506 (951) 222-8271 -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Tammy.DiBenedetto at rcc.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:27 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA Hi Karey, Let me first offer my best wishes on the speedy completion of your dissertation. I, too, am in the process of completing my dissertation-a study of race relations in Percy's works-so I have a good idea what you're going through. The first chapter of my dissertation-a study of the "Africanist presence" in The Moviegoer and its relationship to the establishment of white American identity, might work well for the conference session. I'm attaching an abstract (of sorts; it's actually a couple of paragraphs from the Intro. to the dissertation) to give you an idea of what I'm up to. Although my dissertation offers a study of race and race relations in all of Percy's novels, the chapter on The Moviegoer is one I'm happiest with, though the chapter on Love in the Ruins is also pretty well fleshed out, it's pretty much a rehash of what's been said before. The analysis of race in The Moviegoer offers a few new points on race that (as far as I know) haven't yet been discussed. Thanks for organizing this session. I certainly hope it materializes. All my best, Tammy DiBenedetto Tammy DiBenedetto Associate Professor, English Riverside Community College 4800 Magnolia Avenue Riverside, CA 92506 (951) 222-8271 -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Karey Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 7:58 AM To: 'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion' Subject: [percy-l] Call for Papers: Walker Percy at SAMLA Hi all - Regarding the Walker Pecy session at SAMLA: I received some e-mails indicating interest and ideas, but only one abstract for a paper - deadline is May 31, so if you're interested, let me know, or we'll have to cancel the session! : ( I'd like to see Percy at SAMLA! More information and orginal e-mail is below - the topic is flexible, just about Percy "today"! If interested, send it to me at my home address: karey1 at charter.net Karey Percy fellows: I will be chairing a session at the annual convention of the South Atlantic Modern Language Association (see topic below). Am seeking papers on the topic: "Walker Percy Today" - that topic should be broad enough to fit many different Percy interests. I think Percy is relevant today - but somehow is not included in college curricula as much as he should be! Just e-mail a one-page abstract to me at karey1 at charter.net by May 31. The SAMLA website is http://www.samla.org