[percy-l] Chimp is a challenge

Karey Perkins karey1 at charter.net
Tue Mar 25 14:09:49 EDT 2008


Good point.  Percy said language was necessary for consciousness.  That's
something I've been trying to decipher.  What exactly is he meaning by
consciousness? Are my cats not conscious?  They definitely feel.  Are they
only conscious to the point of survival impulses, instinct, and the emotions
related to the two?  I think if we interpret Percy's claim, it has got to
mean that you can't know something beyond survival impulses unless you have
language.  You can't be aware of the inevitable arrival of death, and so
can't experience "the denial of death" and the anxiety of death and the need
for a causa sui (cf. Ernest Becker) - or other human emotions, such as guilt
and regret and redemption.  (I'm quite certain my cats don't feel guilt.)
Is that what he means by consciousness?

 

The huge evolutionary gap that Langer speaks of, that Robert points out,
might explain why Percy continually insisted on a qualitative difference -
it really seems that way if the quantitative difference is so big.  Though
if it's really quantitative, there's a whole separate set of implications
about who man is and how he differs from other creatures - that are belied
if it's qualitative.

 

Karey

 

  _____  

From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 1:34 PM
To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge

 

Another question: Can you know something (beyond survival impulses) without
having the language to articulate it?

--Rhonda 

"You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of
great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea
of who he is or what he is doing."
  
                                    Walker Percy

 

  _____  

> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:50:08 -0400
> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
> From: armstron at ohiou.edu
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> 
> Question: Do you know something without knowing that you know?
> 
> Ken A
> 
> At 09:32 AM 3/25/2008, you wrote:
> >List,
> >
> > I've always wondered why, in this age old debate, more has not been made

> > of the degree of quantitative difference.
> >
> >Even without getting to the question of qualitative difference, one must 
> >admit that the difference in quantity is huge--orders of magnitude. Apes 
> >in the wild may have a few dozen symbols. Human symbols number in the 
> >hundreds of thousands at least.
> >
> >The extent of the difference in quantity suggests, though certainly does 
> >not prove, a qualitative difference.
> >
> >I don't have Langer in front of me, but I recall one thing she wrote in 
> >_New Key_--
> >"Between the clearest animal call of love or warning or anger, and man's 
> >least, trivial word, there lies a whole day of Creation--or in modern 
> >phrase, a whole chapter of evolution." (NY: Mentor Books) p.83.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Karey Perkins <karey1 at charter.net>
> >Date: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:48
> >Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> >To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" 
> ><percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> >
> > > Rhonda,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course, Nikki knows more about what Walker said personally, but
> > > in his
> > > writings he always maintained that chimps and other animals could
> > > communicate dyadically - but their sign language and other
> > > communicationnever rose above the "sign" level to symbol. He
> > > seemed pretty adamant about
> > > that, even though it was not written in stone in the general
> > > field, as Nikki
> > > says. Interestingly, Susanne Langer, his mentor in symbol (of
> > > sorts), felt
> > > otherwise - that higher primates were capable of rudimentary
> > > symbol, and
> > > gives examples in her "Philosophy in a New Key." For Walker it
> > > seems to be
> > > a qualitative difference; for Langer, it was quantitative.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Karey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA
> > > MCDONNELLSent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:21 AM
> > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki--
> > >
> > > Can you elaborate a little on the debate you refer to? Was Walker
> > > absolutein his stance, or did he recognize that dyadic
> > > communication exists between
> > > the "lower orders"? I'm wondering if it was triadic communication
> > > that was
> > > the sticking point for him, and therefore the true point of argument?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --Rhonda
> > >
> > > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in
> > > spite of
> > > great scientific and technological advances, man has not the
> > > faintest idea
> > > of who he is or what he is doing."
> > >
> > > Walker Percy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Nikkibar at aol.com
> > > Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:43:24 -0400
> > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Chimp is a challenge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Marcus,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You bring up with painful nostalgia, a long running argument that
> > > i carried
> > > on with Walker for a great many years. He always asserted that
> > > animals of
> > > the "lower orders" were unable to communicate -- not only with us
> > > but with
> > > one another, while I held to the view that 1) he was probably
> > > wrong and or
> > > 2) that in any event we could never be certain but 3) that it was
> > > a measure
> > > of our hubris to deny the possibility. As times have gone forward
> > > since his
> > > death, the empirical jury is still out in my view, but I think my
> > > positiongrows stronger day by day.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > >
> > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch
> > > <http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-> 
> > stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001> the video on AOL Home.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Test your Star IQ Play now!
> > > <http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=redcarpet_HMTAGMAR>
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >An archive of all list discussion is available at 
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> >
> >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> 
> --
> An archive of all list discussion is available at
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> 
> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy

  _____  

Test your Star IQ Play now!
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