From wriddick at usa.net Sat Nov 1 04:03:15 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:03:15 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> Message-ID: >What about the Inquisition? 1. Bush has relied on torture to extract "information" from terror "suspects" (this is from where the laughably phony connection between Hussein and Al Queda comes). 2. Bush covets the power to eavesdrop on everyone's conversations without a warrant (expecting to hear confessions, perhaps?). 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again certainty/willful ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble through life like Don Quixote on meth. Does this ring any bells with Inquisition scholars? I suppose Arthur Miller's "The Crucible" also applies, as it often does during outbursts of America's paranoid style of politics... I talked to Percy about politics and watched him try to get involved with the higher education system here. He was a nice guy with someo profound spiritual insights on modernity but he was a bit naive about how things really worked in the secular world and what it would take to change them. From tfa at brickengraver.com Sat Nov 1 13:52:51 2008 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> Message-ID: "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get along fine. Even Ku Kluxers? Sure" Questions They Never Asked Me Signposts In A Strange Land Page 418 Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological rigidity himself when he writes: 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again certainty/willful ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble through life like Don Quixote on meth. The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, Cheney, et al. But then again much of that statement could apply to everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met an individual in my life that did not reflect to one degree or another those "qualities". Tommy Armstrong BrickEngraver LLC www.brickengraver.com Jack Aubrey: "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of it." Stephen Maturin: "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and again." Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Sat Nov 1 23:44:15 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> References: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> Message-ID: It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but my excuse still is boredom. Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would be debating this war. The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam being dealt with. There is a time for meeting aggression with greater aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows this. War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army conducts themselves better under such strenuous circumstances as the US Army. The US Army is in a unique position to force a world peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim from Ghana. This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is religious reconciliation stuff. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: marcus at loyno.edu Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he does > (though not sure they warrant posting on this list), but I > think using WP as a reference point or touchstone for > verification of events and policies in the present > world--such as the decision to invade Iraq--is asking for > impossible. My experience with Percy is that he was > predictable and unpredictable, always nuanced in ways that > caught me by surprise. And the reason for this is that he > remained alert and ingtellectually (and spiritually) active > all the way to the end. > > I think Percy probably would not see history an allegorical > figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, yes and no for > a very long time. Maybe forever. Does "history" agree on > the Crusades? Are you going to submit this question to > Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? > > Other may have different opinions. > > Marcus Smith > New Orleans > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > < > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Message-ID: < > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > List, > > > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste of > > time or the beginning of something good? > > > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are we > > beginning the process of communication and community > > formation between disparate cultures that has since time > > immemorial begun with bloodshed? > > > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each > > other? > > > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of course. > > > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and injury > > and labor of our service members was worth it? > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wriddick at usa.net Sun Nov 2 03:04:05 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 5102 bytes Desc: not available URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Sun Nov 2 17:03:24 2008 From: marcus at loyno.edu (marcus at loyno.edu) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:03:24 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 Message-ID: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Forced...Religious...Reconciliation? I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years. You do not understand what you are saying. Marcus Smith ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy > Armstrong) > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: > > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow > Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, > Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, > homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, > hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." > > That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to > be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get > along fine. > > Even Ku Kluxers? > > Sure" > > > > Questions They Never Asked Me > > Signposts In A Strange Land > > Page 418 > > > > > > > > > > Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological > rigidity himself when he writes: > > > > 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again > certainty/willful > > ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble > through life like > > Don Quixote on meth. > > > > > > The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney > Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, > Cheney, et al. > > But then again much of that statement could apply to > everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met > an individual in my life that did not reflect to one > degree or another those "qualities". > > > > > > > > Tommy Armstrong > > BrickEngraver LLC > > > > www.brickengraver.com > > > > Jack Aubrey: > > "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to > another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of > it." > > Stephen Maturin: > > "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to > exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and > again." > > > > Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but > my excuse still is boredom. > > Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would > be debating this war. > > The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD > have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not > evidence of absence). > > What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between > Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam > being dealt with. > > There is a time for meeting aggression with greater > aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows > this. > > War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army > conducts themselves better under such strenuous > circumstances as the US Army. > > The US Army is in a unique position to force a world > peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most > multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only > ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal > Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. > > BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim > from Ghana. > > This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is > religious reconciliation stuff. > > Bob > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: marcus at loyno.edu > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he > > does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list) > > , but I think using WP as a reference point or > > touchstone for verification of events and policies in > > the present world--such as the decision to invade > > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy > > is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always > > nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the > > reason for this is that he remained alert and > > ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to > > the end. > > I think Percy probably would not see history an > > allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, > > yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does > > "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit > > this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? > > > > Other may have different opinions. > > > > Marcus Smith > > New Orleans > > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 > > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > > visit > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, > > > via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------ > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 > > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > > < > > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and > > > Judaism To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Message-ID: < > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > List, > > > > > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste > > > of time or the beginning of something good? > > > > > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are > > > we beginning the process of communication and > > > community formation between disparate cultures that > > > has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? > > > > > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground > > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each > > > other? > > > > > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of > > > course. > > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and > > > injury and labor of our service members was worth it? > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/attachment-0001.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Percy-L mailing list > > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > > ************************************** > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 > From: Wade Riddick > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: text/enriched > Size: 5102 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6/attachment-0001.bin > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > ************************************** From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sun Nov 2 21:12:19 2008 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:12:19 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: Two quick thoughts--Given that we're on the eve of a new presidency, and it looks likely to go to Obama, can we quit with Bush already? Secondly, I wonder if Percy might see all this as the beginning of the end. He did, after all, believe in that Christ walked the earth, that he rose again, that the communion is the body and blood of Christ via transubstantiation, and that Christ will come again. Considering that, I doubt he thought Christ would ride in on a rainbow. The prelude to the second coming is predicted to be messy (okay, that's an understatement). Many people think that the Middle East will be the locus of the mess. --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy > From: marcus at loyno.edu> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:03:24 -0600> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2> > Forced...Religious...Reconciliation?> > I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years.> > You do not understand what you are saying.> > Marcus Smith> > ----- Original Message Follows -----> From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to> > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'> > to> > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > You can reach the person managing the list at> > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more> > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."> > > > > > Today's Topics:> > > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy> > Armstrong)> > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM)> > 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick)> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------> > ------------> > > > Message: 1> > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400> > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'"> > > > Message-ID:> > > > > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com>> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > > > > > > > > > > > "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow> > Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers,> > Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers,> > homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats,> > hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." > > > > That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to> > be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get> > along fine.> > > > Even Ku Kluxers?> > > > Sure"> > > > > > > > Questions They Never Asked Me> > > > Signposts In A Strange Land > > > > Page 418> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological> > rigidity himself when he writes:> > > > > > > > 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again> > certainty/willful> > > > ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble> > through life like> > > > Don Quixote on meth.> > > > > > > > > > > > The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney> > Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush,> > Cheney, et al. > > > > But then again much of that statement could apply to> > everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met> > an individual in my life that did not reflect to one> > degree or another those "qualities".> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tommy Armstrong > > > > BrickEngraver LLC> > > > > > > > www.brickengraver.com> > > > > > > > Jack Aubrey:> > > > "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to> > another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of> > it."> > > > Stephen Maturin:> > > > "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to> > exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and> > again." > > > > > > > > Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----> > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org> > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of> > Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part --------------> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...> > URL:> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9/attachment-0001.htm> > > > ------------------------------> > > > Message: 2> > Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500> > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM"> > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"> > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii> > > > It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but> > my excuse still is boredom.> > > > Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would> > be debating this war.> > > > The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD> > have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not> > evidence of absence).> > > > What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between> > Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam> > being dealt with.> > > > There is a time for meeting aggression with greater> > aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows> > this.> > > > War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army> > conducts themselves better under such strenuous> > circumstances as the US Army. > > > > The US Army is in a unique position to force a world> > peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most> > multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only> > ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal> > Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. > > > > BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim> > from Ghana. > > > > This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is> > religious reconciliation stuff.> > > > Bob> > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----> > From: marcus at loyno.edu> > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > > > > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he> > > does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list)> > > , but I think using WP as a reference point or> > > touchstone for verification of events and policies in> > > the present world--such as the decision to invade> > > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy> > > is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always> > > nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the> > > reason for this is that he remained alert and> > > ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to> > > the end. > > > I think Percy probably would not see history an> > > allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously,> > > yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does> > > "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit> > > this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars?> > > > > > Other may have different opinions.> > > > > > Marcus Smith> > > New Orleans> > > > > > ----- Original Message Follows -----> > > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400> > > > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to> > > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,> > > > visit> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or,> > > > via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'> > > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at> > > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is> > > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."> > > > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics:> > > > > > > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism> > > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM)> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------> > > > ------------ > > > > Message: 1> > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500> > > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM"> > > > <> > > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and> > > > Judaism To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > Message-ID: <> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > > > > > > > List,> > > > > > > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste> > > > of time or the beginning of something good?> > > > > > > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are> > > > we beginning the process of communication and> > > > community formation between disparate cultures that> > > > has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed?> > > > > > > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground> > > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each> > > > other?> > > > > > > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of> > > > course. > > > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and> > > > injury and labor of our service members was worth it?> > > > > > > > Bob> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part --------------> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...> > > > URL:> > > >> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/attachment-0001.htm> > > > > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________> > > > Percy-L mailing list> > > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l> > > > > > > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > > > **************************************> > > --> > > An archive of all list discussion is available at> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at> > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy> > > > > > ------------------------------> > > > Message: 3> > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600> > From: Wade Riddick > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"> > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...> > Name: not available> > Type: text/enriched> > Size: 5102 bytes> > Desc: not available> > Url :> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6/attachment-0001.bin> > > > ------------------------------> > > > _______________________________________________> > Percy-L mailing list> > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l> > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2> > **************************************> --> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ When your life is on the go?take your life with you. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298558/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wriddick at usa.net Sun Nov 2 21:49:24 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:49:24 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] More Percian parallels in the modern day Inquisition In-Reply-To: References: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> Message-ID: I forgot to elaborate on one more parallel. Perhaps instead of selling drugs at the local truckstop, More would be a mortgage broker selling people dreams of consumer paradise paid for with an impossibly rickety adjustable rate home equity line of credit. Perhaps there would be an emphasis on the literal meaning of 'More.' Instead of withdrawal, reentry would look like stock market crash and "Depression" - both figurative and literal. Instead of war, Percy would write about how at least in a Depression everybody feels alive because death is so close at hand (from starvation if not from Nazi guns). Before the crash perhaps the Knotheads would be out there accusing forensic accountants and Warren Buffet of supporting terrorists with their criticisms of the emperor's wardrobe. And for a bonus, at the FDA - in addition to fluoride (which screws up some thyroids, causes skeletal fluorosis, causes some cancers (while inhibiting others), makes tea-drinking dangerous and may cause autoimmune conditions like anorexia by damaging our gut flora - just like every other continuously-used broad-spectrum antibiotics can) - we'd be debating adding lithium, SSRIs and statins to the water supply - which, by the way, we're already basically doing because none of our water filtration systems are designed to purge pharmaceuticals from waste water and as a society we're all on so many different drugs they're impossible to avoid at the tap. (If you're gonna advocate better living through chemistry you ought to at least study a little chemistry...) Hey, wasn't the original Thomas More a liminal figure who burned people at the stake for heresy to the Catholic Church and then got caught halfway in the middle of the Reformation, endorsing Henry's supremacy in England without conceding the invalidation of his marriage - and then he got the same compassion from the King he'd shown others on the King's behalf? Wade Riddick From karey1 at charter.net Sun Nov 2 21:55:53 2008 From: karey1 at charter.net (Karey ) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:55:53 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <000601c93d5f$b01d0890$105719b0$@net> Love in the Ruins predicted all of this - the split in just about every group in America. Religious, political, especially. The Leftpapas and the Knotheads. What more accurate description can you give the state of American politics today? Both 2000 and 2004 elections were essentially 50-50. While Obama seems to be a few points ahead, I'm wary of predicting outcomes even now after the last two elections. And, it's still too close to 50-50 due to the ideological split in American society. Why - because of paradigm shift a couple of hundred years ago (a la Kuhn) in which science and a literal interpretation of creation and the rest of the Bible seem to conflict. So, what do you have? A group of people (religious fundamentalists and political conservatives) who won't let go of an outdated and disproven paradigm - and a group of people who, having faced reality, realize that that paradigm is outdated and disproven, yet have no paradigm to replace it that contains a set of morals and values that can guide our lives and actions (the reason Percy chose the Catholic church). There is no reigning paradigm in America today - only the conflict of two. In the 21st century, a county adjacent to mine actually had a legal proceeding approved to insert into a high school science textbook that evolution was "only a theory." The ignorance involved in this is unspeakable. First of all - the definition of "theory" was not understood by any of the parties involved - of course evolution is a theory, as is all of scientific paradigms, it is just the best explainable theory we have as it is supported by the most evidence. That is what we call "science" - only the best explainable theory that we have today, based on the most congruence to the evidence available today. Second of all, the insertion of religious paradigms, scientifically unproven and with little congruence to available scientific evidence and facts, into a public scientific classroom funded by taxpayer dollars, is amazing. This is less to do with the Second Coming (or a second coming) than it is with splits. A lack of moderation in every way. Anticipation of a fulfillment of scriptural prophecy like an Armageddon and the second coming is a scary scary thing in that some say that some conservative politicians will try to precipitate this to fulfill "scripture" and feel no compulsion to quell (some even say are actively involved in sparking) unrest in the middle east. Karey From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:12 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 Two quick thoughts--Given that we're on the eve of a new presidency, and it looks likely to go to Obama, can we quit with Bush already? Secondly, I wonder if Percy might see all this as the beginning of the end. He did, after all, believe in that Christ walked the earth, that he rose again, that the communion is the body and blood of Christ via transubstantiation, and that Christ will come again. Considering that, I doubt he thought Christ would ride in on a rainbow. The prelude to the second coming is predicted to be messy (okay, that's an understatement). Many people think that the Middle East will be the locus of the mess. --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy _____ > From: marcus at loyno.edu > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:03:24 -0600 > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > > Forced...Religious...Reconciliation? > > I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years. > > You do not understand what you are saying. > > Marcus Smith > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500 > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy > > Armstrong) > > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > > 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 > > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com> > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > > > > > "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow > > Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, > > Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, > > homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, > > hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." > > > > That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to > > be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get > > along fine. > > > > Even Ku Kluxers? > > > > Sure" > > > > > > > > Questions They Never Asked Me > > > > Signposts In A Strange Land > > > > Page 418 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological > > rigidity himself when he writes: > > > > > > > > 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again > > certainty/willful > > > > ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble > > through life like > > > > Don Quixote on meth. > > > > > > > > > > > > The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney > > Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, > > Cheney, et al. > > > > But then again much of that statement could apply to > > everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met > > an individual in my life that did not reflect to one > > degree or another those "qualities". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tommy Armstrong > > > > BrickEngraver LLC > > > > > > > > www.brickengraver.com > > > > > > > > Jack Aubrey: > > > > "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to > > another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of > > it." > > > > Stephen Maturin: > > > > "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to > > exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and > > again." > > > > > > > > Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9/att achment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but > > my excuse still is boredom. > > > > Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would > > be debating this war. > > > > The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD > > have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not > > evidence of absence). > > > > What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between > > Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam > > being dealt with. > > > > There is a time for meeting aggression with greater > > aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows > > this. > > > > War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army > > conducts themselves better under such strenuous > > circumstances as the US Army. > > > > The US Army is in a unique position to force a world > > peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most > > multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only > > ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal > > Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. > > > > BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim > > from Ghana. > > > > This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is > > religious reconciliation stuff. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: marcus at loyno.edu > > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he > > > does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list) > > > , but I think using WP as a reference point or > > > touchstone for verification of events and policies in > > > the present world--such as the decision to invade > > > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy > > > is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always > > > nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the > > > reason for this is that he remained alert and > > > ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to > > > the end. > > > I think Percy probably would not see history an > > > allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, > > > yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does > > > "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit > > > this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? > > > > > > Other may have different opinions. > > > > > > Marcus Smith > > > New Orleans > > > > > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > > > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 > > > > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, > > > > visit > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, > > > > via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > > > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is > > > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > > > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ------------ > > > > Message: 1 > > > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 > > > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > > > < > > > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and > > > > Judaism To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > Message-ID: < > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste > > > > of time or the beginning of something good? > > > > > > > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are > > > > we beginning the process of communication and > > > > community formation between disparate cultures that > > > > has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? > > > > > > > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground > > > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each > > > > other? > > > > > > > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of > > > > course. > > > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and > > > > injury and labor of our service members was worth it? > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > URL: > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/att achment-0001.htm > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Percy-L mailing list > > > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > > > ************************************** > > > -- > > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 > > From: Wade Riddick > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > > Name: not available > > Type: text/enriched > > Size: 5102 bytes > > Desc: not available > > Url : > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6/att achment-0001.bin > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > > ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _____ When your life is on the go-take your life with you. Try Windows MobileR today -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Sun Nov 2 21:56:59 2008 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:56:59 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <20081102215659.8aghd4d174ckg8cw@webmail.iu.edu> I agree with Marcus. Forced reconciliation? What a joke. I don't want to be unsympathetic with anyone in the military, but we can't paint this invasion in a good light. Bush told us that Saddam had WMD. That was a lie. Moreover, he lied about the uranium that was supposedly coming from Niger (the so-called yellow cake documents). We aren't starting a reconciliation; we are moving the mess from Iraq to Afghanistan. Nothing good will come from our imperialism--for us or for those whom we've invaded. For those who think that our invasion will bring about peace in the middle east, I have lot in the back of my house that contains pieces of gold. But you need to buy before we foreclose. Bob wrote: >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater >> aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows >> this. Well, where is the aggression? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11; so how do we justify our aggression, our invasion of Iraq? For that matter, our invasion of Afghanistan had no basis. We pulled away without Bin Laden. Hmmm, why is that? My guess, based on the writings I've read and the interviews I've heard, is that Bin Laden died years ago. He was having kidney failure in 2001!! World peace? Based on our invasion of Iraq? Come on! We've created a nightmare, one in which the Iranians and the Russians are now involved. I realize that little of the above has anything to do with Percy (and I'm not going to do the mental gymnastics to bend it that way); however, we can't justify our imperialism, by saying that we will force the Sunnis and the Shiites to get along. Ain't going to happen. Hope I didn't offend, but it's nice to see some life on the list again. But the "forced reconciliation" phrase lit my fire. -David Quoting marcus at loyno.edu: > Forced...Religious...Reconciliation? > > I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years. > > You do not understand what you are saying. > > Marcus Smith > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500 > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy >> Armstrong) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------------ >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 >> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> >> >> >> "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow >> Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, >> Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, >> homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, >> hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." >> >> That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to >> be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get >> along fine. >> >> Even Ku Kluxers? >> >> Sure" >> >> >> >> Questions They Never Asked Me >> >> Signposts In A Strange Land >> >> Page 418 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological >> rigidity himself when he writes: >> >> >> >> 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again >> certainty/willful >> >> ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble >> through life like >> >> Don Quixote on meth. >> >> >> >> >> >> The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney >> Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, >> Cheney, et al. >> >> But then again much of that statement could apply to >> everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met >> an individual in my life that did not reflect to one >> degree or another those "qualities". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tommy Armstrong >> >> BrickEngraver LLC >> >> >> >> www.brickengraver.com >> >> >> >> Jack Aubrey: >> >> "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to >> another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of >> it." >> >> Stephen Maturin: >> >> "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to >> exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and >> again." >> >> >> >> Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9/attachment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 >> From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but >> my excuse still is boredom. >> >> Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would >> be debating this war. >> >> The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD >> have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not >> evidence of absence). >> >> What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between >> Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam >> being dealt with. >> >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater >> aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows >> this. >> >> War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army >> conducts themselves better under such strenuous >> circumstances as the US Army. >> >> The US Army is in a unique position to force a world >> peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most >> multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only >> ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal >> Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. >> >> BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim >> from Ghana. >> >> This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is >> religious reconciliation stuff. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: marcus at loyno.edu >> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> >> > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he >> > does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list) >> > , but I think using WP as a reference point or >> > touchstone for verification of events and policies in >> > the present world--such as the decision to invade >> > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy >> > is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always >> > nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the >> > reason for this is that he remained alert and >> > ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to >> > the end. >> > I think Percy probably would not see history an >> > allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, >> > yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does >> > "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit >> > this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? >> > >> > Other may have different opinions. >> > >> > Marcus Smith >> > New Orleans >> > >> > ----- Original Message Follows ----- >> > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 >> > >> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, >> > > visit >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, >> > > via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is >> > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> > > >> > > >> > > Today's Topics: >> > > >> > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism >> > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------ >> > > Message: 1 >> > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 >> > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> > > < >> > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and >> > > Judaism To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > Message-ID: < >> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > > >> > > List, >> > > >> > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste >> > > of time or the beginning of something good? >> > > >> > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are >> > > we beginning the process of communication and >> > > community formation between disparate cultures that >> > > has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? >> > > >> > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground >> > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each >> > > other? >> > > >> > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of >> > > course. >> > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and >> > > injury and labor of our service members was worth it? >> > > >> > > Bob >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > URL: >> > > >> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/attachment-0001.htm >> > > >> > > ------------------------------ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Percy-L mailing list >> > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > > >> > > >> > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > > ************************************** >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 >> From: Wade Riddick >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: not available >> Type: text/enriched >> Size: 5102 bytes >> Desc: not available >> Url : >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6/attachment-0001.bin >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 >> ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From karey1 at charter.net Sun Nov 2 22:21:48 2008 From: karey1 at charter.net (Karey ) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 22:21:48 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20081102215659.8aghd4d174ckg8cw@webmail.iu.edu> References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> <20081102215659.8aghd4d174ckg8cw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <001601c93d63$4ef9a510$ececef30$@net> David, I couldn't have said it better. Here's the deal - the evidence was available and there - I saw it and knew it in 2001 and 2002 (though everyone I knew thought I was crazy) - there were editorials in the NYTimes, articles on the front page (more on back pages) of prominent newsmagazines and papers that presented the truth - there was little to no justification for a war. The uranium was not there. And every reason to go into Iraq was unsubstantiated. Both the Catholics and the military have the same criteria for a "just war" and on EVERY CRITERIA this war has failed. http://www.catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp Check it out. WWPD? He would have disagreed with this war. Problem is, no one in this administration was ever (really) in the military (none in combat) and no one understood a thing about it - a confederacy of dunces. What a tragedy and chaos has ensued. (Powell was but he left because no one listened.) Remember, Percy's admonition about hurricanes and the enthusiasm they bring? 9/11 brought that. I balked at every "patriotic" ritual after that because I knew it was based in "sentimentality" and not in truth. No one understood that. Some people have voluntarily abdicated their intellect in the favor of ideology, sentimentality, and financial and political self interest. To the detriment of all. The frontrunner in this presidential race does not do that - and operates on intellect and reason, as does his team. Hopefully he'll win and spark a much needed sea change in this country - and at the same time restore the respect of all other reasonable allies and nations. KP -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Beck, David A Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:57 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 I agree with Marcus. Forced reconciliation? What a joke. I don't want to be unsympathetic with anyone in the military, but we can't paint this invasion in a good light. Bush told us that Saddam had WMD. That was a lie. Moreover, he lied about the uranium that was supposedly coming from Niger (the so-called yellow cake documents). We aren't starting a reconciliation; we are moving the mess from Iraq to Afghanistan. Nothing good will come from our imperialism--for us or for those whom we've invaded. For those who think that our invasion will bring about peace in the middle east, I have lot in the back of my house that contains pieces of gold. But you need to buy before we foreclose. Bob wrote: >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater >> aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows >> this. Well, where is the aggression? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11; so how do we justify our aggression, our invasion of Iraq? For that matter, our invasion of Afghanistan had no basis. We pulled away without Bin Laden. Hmmm, why is that? My guess, based on the writings I've read and the interviews I've heard, is that Bin Laden died years ago. He was having kidney failure in 2001!! World peace? Based on our invasion of Iraq? Come on! We've created a nightmare, one in which the Iranians and the Russians are now involved. I realize that little of the above has anything to do with Percy (and I'm not going to do the mental gymnastics to bend it that way); however, we can't justify our imperialism, by saying that we will force the Sunnis and the Shiites to get along. Ain't going to happen. Hope I didn't offend, but it's nice to see some life on the list again. But the "forced reconciliation" phrase lit my fire. -David Quoting marcus at loyno.edu: > Forced...Religious...Reconciliation? > > I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years. > > You do not understand what you are saying. > > Marcus Smith > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500 > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy >> Armstrong) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------------ >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 >> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> >> >> >> "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow >> Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, >> Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, >> homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, >> hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." >> >> That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to >> be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get >> along fine. >> >> Even Ku Kluxers? >> >> Sure" >> >> >> >> Questions They Never Asked Me >> >> Signposts In A Strange Land >> >> Page 418 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological >> rigidity himself when he writes: >> >> >> >> 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again >> certainty/willful >> >> ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble >> through life like >> >> Don Quixote on meth. >> >> >> >> >> >> The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney >> Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, >> Cheney, et al. >> >> But then again much of that statement could apply to >> everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met >> an individual in my life that did not reflect to one >> degree or another those "qualities". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tommy Armstrong >> >> BrickEngraver LLC >> >> >> >> www.brickengraver.com >> >> >> >> Jack Aubrey: >> >> "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to >> another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of >> it." >> >> Stephen Maturin: >> >> "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to >> exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and >> again." >> >> >> >> Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9/att achment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 >> From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but >> my excuse still is boredom. >> >> Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would >> be debating this war. >> >> The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD >> have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not >> evidence of absence). >> >> What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between >> Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam >> being dealt with. >> >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater >> aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows >> this. >> >> War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army >> conducts themselves better under such strenuous >> circumstances as the US Army. >> >> The US Army is in a unique position to force a world >> peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most >> multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only >> ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal >> Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. >> >> BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim >> from Ghana. >> >> This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is >> religious reconciliation stuff. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: marcus at loyno.edu >> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> >> > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he >> > does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list) >> > , but I think using WP as a reference point or >> > touchstone for verification of events and policies in >> > the present world--such as the decision to invade >> > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy >> > is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always >> > nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the >> > reason for this is that he remained alert and >> > ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to >> > the end. >> > I think Percy probably would not see history an >> > allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, >> > yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does >> > "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit >> > this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? >> > >> > Other may have different opinions. >> > >> > Marcus Smith >> > New Orleans >> > >> > ----- Original Message Follows ----- >> > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 >> > >> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, >> > > visit >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, >> > > via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is >> > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> > > >> > > >> > > Today's Topics: >> > > >> > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism >> > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------ >> > > Message: 1 >> > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 >> > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> > > < >> > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and >> > > Judaism To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > Message-ID: < >> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > > >> > > List, >> > > >> > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste >> > > of time or the beginning of something good? >> > > >> > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are >> > > we beginning the process of communication and >> > > community formation between disparate cultures that >> > > has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? >> > > >> > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground >> > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each >> > > other? >> > > >> > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of >> > > course. >> > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and >> > > injury and labor of our service members was worth it? >> > > >> > > Bob >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > URL: >> > > >> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/att achment-0001.htm >> > > >> > > ------------------------------ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Percy-L mailing list >> > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > > >> > > >> > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > > ************************************** >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 >> From: Wade Riddick >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: not available >> Type: text/enriched >> Size: 5102 bytes >> Desc: not available >> Url : >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6/att achment-0001.bin >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 >> ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From martyc at frankscasing.com Mon Nov 3 11:59:33 2008 From: martyc at frankscasing.com (Marty Cannon) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 10:59:33 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 Message-ID: but if reason and intellect is central, what need is there for respect of others? Is this about Percy? Marty >>> karey1 at charter.net 11/02/08 9:21 PM >>> David, I couldn't have said it better. Here's the deal - the evidence was available and there - I saw it and knew it in 2001 and 2002 (though everyone I knew thought I was crazy) - there were editorials in the NYTimes, articles on the front page (more on back pages) of prominent newsmagazines and papers that presented the truth - there was little to no justification for a war. The uranium was not there. And every reason to go into Iraq was unsubstantiated. Both the Catholics and the military have the same criteria for a "just war" and on EVERY CRITERIA this war has failed. http://www.catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp Check it out. WWPD? He would have disagreed with this war. Problem is, no one in this administration was ever (really) in the military (none in combat) and no one understood a thing about it - a confederacy of dunces. What a tragedy and chaos has ensued. (Powell was but he left because no one listened.) Remember, Percy's admonition about hurricanes and the enthusiasm they bring? 9/11 brought that. I balked at every "patriotic" ritual after that because I knew it was based in "sentimentality" and not in truth. No one understood that. Some people have voluntarily abdicated their intellect in the favor of ideology, sentimentality, and financial and political self interest. To the detriment of all. The frontrunner in this presidential race does not do that - and operates on intellect and reason, as does his team. Hopefully he'll win and spark a much needed sea change in this country - and at the same time restore the respect of all other reasonable allies and nations. KP -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Beck, David A Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:57 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 I agree with Marcus. Forced reconciliation? What a joke. I don't want to be unsympathetic with anyone in the military, but we can't paint this invasion in a good light. Bush told us that Saddam had WMD. That was a lie. Moreover, he lied about the uranium that was supposedly coming from Niger (the so-called yellow cake documents). We aren't starting a reconciliation; we are moving the mess from Iraq to Afghanistan. Nothing good will come from our imperialism--for us or for those whom we've invaded. For those who think that our invasion will bring about peace in the middle east, I have lot in the back of my house that contains pieces of gold. But you need to buy before we foreclose. Bob wrote: >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater >> aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows >> this. Well, where is the aggression? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11; so how do we justify our aggression, our invasion of Iraq? For that matter, our invasion of Afghanistan had no basis. We pulled away without Bin Laden. Hmmm, why is that? My guess, based on the writings I've read and the interviews I've heard, is that Bin Laden died years ago. He was having kidney failure in 2001!! World peace? Based on our invasion of Iraq? Come on! We've created a nightmare, one in which the Iranians and the Russians are now involved. I realize that little of the above has anything to do with Percy (and I'm not going to do the mental gymnastics to bend it that way); however, we can't justify our imperialism, by saying that we will force the Sunnis and the Shiites to get along. Ain't going to happen. Hope I didn't offend, but it's nice to see some life on the list again. But the "forced reconciliation" phrase lit my fire. -David Quoting marcus at loyno.edu: > Forced...Religious...Reconciliation? > > I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years. > > You do not understand what you are saying. > > Marcus Smith > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500 > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy >> Armstrong) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------------ >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 >> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> >> >> >> "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow >> Christians, to say nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, >> Northerners, Southerners, fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, >> homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, >> hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." >> >> That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to >> be more or less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get >> along fine. >> >> Even Ku Kluxers? >> >> Sure" >> >> >> >> Questions They Never Asked Me >> >> Signposts In A Strange Land >> >> Page 418 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological >> rigidity himself when he writes: >> >> >> >> 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again >> certainty/willful >> >> ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble >> through life like >> >> Don Quixote on meth. >> >> >> >> >> >> The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney >> Frank, Ted Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, >> Cheney, et al. >> >> But then again much of that statement could apply to >> everyone as we stumble along our journey. I have never met >> an individual in my life that did not reflect to one >> degree or another those "qualities". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tommy Armstrong >> >> BrickEngraver LLC >> >> >> >> www.brickengraver.com >> >> >> >> Jack Aubrey: >> >> "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to >> another today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of >> it." >> >> Stephen Maturin: >> >> "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to >> exchange our views freely and abuse our neighbors now and >> again." >> >> >> >> Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> Wade Riddick Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9/att achment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 >> From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but >> my excuse still is boredom. >> >> Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would >> be debating this war. >> >> The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD >> have not been found. (Although absence of evidence is not >> evidence of absence). >> >> What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between >> Sunnis and Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam >> being dealt with. >> >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater >> aggression in order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows >> this. >> >> War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army >> conducts themselves better under such strenuous >> circumstances as the US Army. >> >> The US Army is in a unique position to force a world >> peace. We are the most powerful, and also the most >> multicultural army the world has ever seen. The only >> ethnic group I have not seen represented is the aboriginal >> Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. >> >> BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim >> from Ghana. >> >> This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is >> religious reconciliation stuff. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: marcus at loyno.edu >> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> >> > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he >> > does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list) >> > , but I think using WP as a reference point or >> > touchstone for verification of events and policies in >> > the present world--such as the decision to invade >> > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy >> > is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always >> > nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the >> > reason for this is that he remained alert and >> > ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to >> > the end. >> > I think Percy probably would not see history an >> > allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, >> > yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does >> > "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit >> > this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? >> > >> > Other may have different opinions. >> > >> > Marcus Smith >> > New Orleans >> > >> > ----- Original Message Follows ----- >> > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 >> > >> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, >> > > visit >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, >> > > via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is >> > > more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> > > >> > > >> > > Today's Topics: >> > > >> > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism >> > > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------ >> > > Message: 1 >> > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 >> > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> > > < >> > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and >> > > Judaism To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > Message-ID: < >> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > > >> > > List, >> > > >> > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste >> > > of time or the beginning of something good? >> > > >> > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are >> > > we beginning the process of communication and >> > > community formation between disparate cultures that >> > > has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? >> > > >> > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground >> > > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each >> > > other? >> > > >> > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of >> > > course. >> > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and >> > > injury and labor of our service members was worth it? >> > > >> > > Bob >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > URL: >> > > >> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/att achment-0001.htm >> > > >> > > ------------------------------ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Percy-L mailing list >> > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > > >> > > >> > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > > ************************************** >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 >> From: Wade Riddick >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: not available >> Type: text/enriched >> Size: 5102 bytes >> Desc: not available >> Url : >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6/att achment-0001.bin >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 >> ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at sheastokes.com Mon Nov 3 13:58:10 2008 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 10:58:10 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reason and intellect are central, but these qualities aren't always recognized, and one isn't always "respected" for possessing them. Still, we should strive for the benefit that can be gained. Stated differently: no man or country is an island. Is this about Percy? Percy commented on the not-too-distant issues of his day, and articulated broader themes. Seems appropriate to query how he would respond to the issues of our day. -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Marty Cannon Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 12:00 PM To: karey1 at charter.net; percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 but if reason and intellect is central, what need is there for respect of others? Is this about Percy? Marty >>> karey1 at charter.net 11/02/08 9:21 PM >>> David, I couldn't have said it better. Here's the deal - the evidence was available and there - I saw it and knew it in 2001 and 2002 (though everyone I knew thought I was crazy) - there were editorials in the NYTimes, articles on the front page (more on back pages) of prominent newsmagazines and papers that presented the truth - there was little to no justification for a war. The uranium was not there. And every reason to go into Iraq was unsubstantiated. Both the Catholics and the military have the same criteria for a "just war" and on EVERY CRITERIA this war has failed. http://www.catholic.com/library/Just_war_Doctrine_1.asp Check it out. WWPD? He would have disagreed with this war. Problem is, no one in this administration was ever (really) in the military (none in combat) and no one understood a thing about it - a confederacy of dunces. What a tragedy and chaos has ensued. (Powell was but he left because no one listened.) Remember, Percy's admonition about hurricanes and the enthusiasm they bring? 9/11 brought that. I balked at every "patriotic" ritual after that because I knew it was based in "sentimentality" and not in truth. No one understood that. Some people have voluntarily abdicated their intellect in the favor of ideology, sentimentality, and financial and political self interest. To the detriment of all. The frontrunner in this presidential race does not do that - and operates on intellect and reason, as does his team. Hopefully he'll win and spark a much needed sea change in this country - and at the same time restore the respect of all other reasonable allies and nations. KP -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Beck, David A Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:57 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 I agree with Marcus. Forced reconciliation? What a joke. I don't want to be unsympathetic with anyone in the military, but we can't paint this invasion in a good light. Bush told us that Saddam had WMD. That was a lie. Moreover, he lied about the uranium that was supposedly coming from Niger (the so-called yellow cake documents). We aren't starting a reconciliation; we are moving the mess from Iraq to Afghanistan. Nothing good will come from our imperialism--for us or for those whom we've invaded. For those who think that our invasion will bring about peace in the middle east, I have lot in the back of my house that contains pieces of gold. But you need to buy before we foreclose. Bob wrote: >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater aggression in >> order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows this. Well, where is the aggression? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11; so how do we justify our aggression, our invasion of Iraq? For that matter, our invasion of Afghanistan had no basis. We pulled away without Bin Laden. Hmmm, why is that? My guess, based on the writings I've read and the interviews I've heard, is that Bin Laden died years ago. He was having kidney failure in 2001!! World peace? Based on our invasion of Iraq? Come on! We've created a nightmare, one in which the Iranians and the Russians are now involved. I realize that little of the above has anything to do with Percy (and I'm not going to do the mental gymnastics to bend it that way); however, we can't justify our imperialism, by saying that we will force the Sunnis and the Shiites to get along. Ain't going to happen. Hope I didn't offend, but it's nice to see some life on the list again. But the "forced reconciliation" phrase lit my fire. -David Quoting marcus at loyno.edu: > Forced...Religious...Reconciliation? > > I'm sorry. I lived in Beirut for six years. > > You do not understand what you are saying. > > Marcus Smith > > ----- Original Message Follows ----- > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 > Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:21:30 -0500 > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Tommy >> Armstrong) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) >> 3. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 (Wade Riddick) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> ------------ >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:52:51 -0400 >> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" >> >> Message-ID: >> >> > CCMAWkZ45OjTe08LpJmBIBAAAAAA==@brickengraver.com> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> >> >> >> "You do not seem to have much use for your fellow Christians, to say >> nothing of Ku Kluxers, ACLUers, Northerners, Southerners, >> fem-libbers, anti-fem-libbers, homosexuals, anti-homosexuals, >> Republicans, Democrats, hippies, anti-hippies, senior citizens." >> >> That's true-though, taken as individuals, they turn out to be more or >> less like oneself, i.e., sinners, and we get along fine. >> >> Even Ku Kluxers? >> >> Sure" >> >> >> >> Questions They Never Asked Me >> >> Signposts In A Strange Land >> >> Page 418 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sounds to me like Mr. Riddick has a bit of ideological rigidity >> himself when he writes: >> >> >> >> 3. Bush has an ideological rigidity/born-again certainty/willful >> >> ignorance/autistic negligence that leads him to stumble through life >> like >> >> Don Quixote on meth. >> >> >> >> >> >> The same could equally apply to Pelosi, Obama, Barney Frank, Ted >> Kennedy, Common Cause, etc. as well as Bush, Cheney, et al. >> >> But then again much of that statement could apply to everyone as we >> stumble along our journey. I have never met an individual in my life >> that did not reflect to one degree or another those "qualities". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Tommy Armstrong >> >> BrickEngraver LLC >> >> >> >> www.brickengraver.com >> >> >> >> Jack Aubrey: >> >> "Oh dear oh dear, I seem fated to move from one blunder to another >> today. I shall hold my tongue or what remains of it." >> >> Stephen Maturin: >> >> "Where would conversation be if we were not allowed to exchange our >> views freely and abuse our neighbors now and again." >> >> >> >> Patrick O'Brian Forturne of War--Patrick O'Brian >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org >> [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick >> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 04:03 >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081101/c61212f9 /att achment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:44:15 -0500 >> From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> It was a Thursday evening, not a Wednesday afternoon--but my excuse >> still is boredom. >> >> Percy was a philosopher, not a philosopholigist. He would be debating >> this war. >> >> The premise for the war was presumably false. CBRN WMD have not been >> found. (Although absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). >> >> What may be occurring is a forced reconciliation between Sunnis and >> Shiites. 1300 years of conflict within Islam being dealt with. >> >> There is a time for meeting aggression with greater aggression in >> order to reduce aggression. Every cop knows this. >> >> War is controlled aggression. Messy, yes. But no army conducts >> themselves better under such strenuous circumstances as the US Army. >> >> The US Army is in a unique position to force a world peace. We are >> the most powerful, and also the most multicultural army the world has >> ever seen. The only ethnic group I have not seen represented is the >> aboriginal Australians. And I bet there is at least one in our Army. >> >> BTW, the most decorated soldier in my unit is a Muslim from Ghana. >> >> This war goes way beyond American Imperialism, it is religious >> reconciliation stuff. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: marcus at loyno.edu >> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:49 >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> >> > I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he does (though >> > not sure they warrant posting on this list) , but I think using WP >> > as a reference point or touchstone for verification of events and >> > policies in the present world--such as the decision to invade >> > Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy is that he >> > was predictable and unpredictable, always nuanced in ways that >> > caught me by surprise. And the reason for this is that he remained >> > alert and ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to >> > the end. >> > I think Percy probably would not see history an allegorical figure. >> > "Will history agree...." Obviously, yes and no for a very long >> > time. Maybe forever. Does "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you >> > going to submit this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem >> > scholars? >> > >> > Other may have different opinions. >> > >> > Marcus Smith >> > New Orleans >> > >> > ----- Original Message Follows ----- >> > From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 >> > >> > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, >> > > send a message with subject or body 'help' >> > > to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > >> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> > > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> > > >> > > >> > > Today's Topics: >> > > >> > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL >> > > USA FORSCOM) >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > > ------------ >> > > Message: 1 >> > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 >> > > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" >> > > < >> > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism To: >> > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > Message-ID: < >> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > > >> > > List, >> > > >> > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste of time or >> > > the beginning of something good? >> > > >> > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are we >> > > beginning the process of communication and community formation >> > > between disparate cultures that has since time immemorial begun >> > > with bloodshed? >> > > >> > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground upon which >> > > we cooperate with each other, not kill each other? >> > > >> > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of course. >> > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and injury and labor >> > > of our service members was worth it? >> > > >> > > Bob >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> > > scrubbed... >> > > URL: >> > > >> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2 /att achment-0001.htm >> > > >> > > ------------------------------ >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Percy-L mailing list >> > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > > >> > > >> > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> > > ************************************** >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > Visit the Walker Percy Project at >> http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:04:05 -0600 >> From: Wade Riddick >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: not available >> Type: text/enriched >> Size: 5102 bytes >> Desc: not available >> Url : >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081102/a4c1f3d6 /att achment-0001.bin >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 >> ************************************** > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ********************************************************* PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION This e-mail and any attachments transmitted are legally privileged and confidential, and are intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, this email was sent to you strictly inadvertently. You are not to read, copy or distribute this email, and instead should delete this email and all copies and backups thereof. Thank you. ********************************************************* From wriddick at usa.net Mon Nov 3 22:36:57 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:36:57 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20081102215659.8aghd4d174ckg8cw@webmail.iu.edu> References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: >I agree with Marcus. Forced reconciliation? What a joke. I don't want >to be unsympathetic with anyone in the military, but we can't paint >this invasion in a good light. Bush told us that Saddam had WMD. That >was a lie. Moreover, he lied about the uranium that was supposedly >coming from Niger (the so-called yellow cake documents). What was most disgusting about this lie is that Hussein already had tons of yellowcake uranium in Iraq under U.N. seal. He had purchased it years earlier. Bush went to the U.N. and lied and said Hussein hadn't allowed the weapons inspectors back into Iraq when he had in fact done exactly. So we had to pull those inspectors out of Iraq so we could bomb the Iraqis for not letting the inspectors into Iraq. Follow? Pulling inspectors out of Iraq left that uranium depot unsupervised. Bush was so concerned about that uranium that for months after the invasion, he left it unguarded like so many weapons depots that terrorists just walked into and stole supplies from to make the bombs that killed our troops. Those of us who pointed out you had to invade Iraq with at least half a million men to do it right, those of us who pointed out the country should be partitioned1 - we were denounced as weak or socialists or atheists or American-hating terrorist sympathizers. Bush might have denounced will-to-power in his post-9/11 speech but it's the sword by which his political career lived and died. Know thyself. Remember Benjamin Franklin. Our critics are our friends. They show us our faults so we can improve ourselves. Or as I heard some woman on TV relay from her grandmother, "Being a Christian means fixing yourself and helping others. It doesn't mean helping yourself and fixing others." I told this list eight years ago that if we allowed Bush to get into office by breaking the law2, he would hardly be deterred from law-breaking in the future and that's exactly what happened. He unilaterally broke half a dozen major treaties his first year in office. He's violated the Geneva Conventions and ordered the torture of detainees in U.S. custody (Clinton at least tried to keep his hands clean via "rendition"). He's committed millions of felonies by wiretapping American phone conversations without a warrant (read the FISA statute if you don't believe me). Then there are the Hatch Act violations in the hiring and firing or prosecutors and Justice Department officials. What's stunning is how there is no real major disagreement on the basic facts. The Republican leadership just thinks they should be able to do and justify whatever they want. It reminds me of that line in "Murder in the Cathedral." If the laws were trees, would you chop down every tree to get at the Devil until there was none left to hide behind when he finally turned on you? I know politics isn't easy. I know nobody's perfect and campaigns take their tolls on the families involved. Politicians have always been lucky to get into office if a third of the electorate doesn't hate their guts. Life is complicated. Whether we intend to or not, we all sin and we all break laws whether it's jay walking, pot, copyrights or something worse. We all need forgiveness. But there's bad and there's worse. Government can't deliver utopia but it can make it easier to behave better and harder to behave poorly. What have our leaders been doing lately? The Republican Party has confused ethics with self-interest. Anything it wanted to do was by definition right. There was no doubt. There was no debate. It's not for no reason that Republican operatives hung posters of Lenin in their offices and talked about character the way Goebells did ("Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character"). When Watergate broke, you had plenty of horrified Republicans. To invoke Bob Dole, where's the outrage lately? George Bush is like this drunk who's been your buddy all your life. He finally sobers up and finds real life isn't nearly as fun without the bear goggles on. So he gets depressed. To cheer him up, one Saturday you take him target shooting in the country - but his hands are kind of shaky from the D.T.'s so you give him a shotgun and to make sure he hits the target you line him up in front of the side of a barn. He takes aim at the bullseye you painted, pulls the trigger and - BLAM! - promptly proceeds to blow his own foot off. While he's hopping around on his remaining foot, you criticize his aim. "George, that it the worst shooting I've ever seen." George turns to you and says, "Why do you hate my freedom? Why do you support the terrorists?" I think that sums up the last eight years. 1. Which is why we have peace today. Iraq *has* partitioned itself - neighborhood by neighborhood instead of region by region, as Biden suggested years ago. You have no more neighborhood violence because you have no more heterogeneous neighborhoods. The successful parts of the "surge" has been nothing more than bribery to sop Sunni disenchantment combined with a Sunni/Shia rejection of nihilistic extremism. That hardly precludes an all-out civil war in the future. 2. It's against the ethics clause of the bar oath for judges to rule in a case where one of the parties has paid one of judge's kids or will pay as a result of the ruling. Bush hired two law firms to represent him in front of the Supreme Court. Those firms, in turn, paid two of Scalia's sons as their employees. Bush then turned around and appointed Eugene Scalia and Janet Rhenquist, children of justices, to high office. Eugene Scalia was a pocket appointment, never approved by congress. If you think that's an unfair characterization of the situation, ask yourself what you would have thought if the most recent judge in the last O.J. Simpson case had dismissed all the charges against Simpson with prejudice and then four of the judge's kids had turned up six months later on the Simpson payroll. From wriddick at usa.net Mon Nov 3 22:57:13 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:57:13 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >but if reason and intellect is central, what need is there for respect >of others? > >Is this about Percy? Yes. While much of the logic of the Federalist Papers with regards to controlling faction has been invalidated by technological advances like the robocall and the mass mailing, I think #10 explains the conflicts between rationality and liberty quite well. If people are going to be free, they have to be free to follow their own logic to different ends. So how do you get to the truth? Isn't this getting at what Percy called the intersubjective? "There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests. It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency. The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties. The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man..." - _Federalist #10_ (Taken as a meditation on oxidative stress and longevity, the second paragraph presents a rather intriguing set of connections considering it's over two centuries old. We literally burn and rust as we age, due to the corrosive properties of the oxygen that sustains us.) From dabeck at iupui.edu Mon Nov 3 23:16:53 2008 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:16:53 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <20081103231653.cy4gl9n23aosg4cc@webmail.iu.edu> Wade, I agree. But since we are veering further away from Percy, I am cautious about my reply. But one question bothers me: if we can hold impeachment hearings for a guy getting a ...well, I don't want to offend anyone, but someone providing his lollipop to an intern, why can't we have impeachment hearings on an administration that has thumbed its nose at the Geneva conventions and our very own Constitution? What's happened to our outrage? Is the fluoride dumbing us down to the point that we are too complacent to respond? I don't understand where the outrage has gone? The sometime righteous outrage that sparked the civil rights movement or the protests about the Viet Nam war...what happened? I ask my students (who are big Obama fans), why their generation produces mind-numbing songs like "My humps, my humps, my humps, my lady lumps." Or something like that. Or the groups who ask such pertinent questions as "Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me. Don't 'cha?" Where is today's Bob Dylan? (Sorry, I know I'm sounding like the old fart that I knew (30 years ago) that I'd never become. But, in the words of another great prophet, "I'm a stranger in a strange land" (Leon Russell, for those under forty). I sometimes think that we are living in a culture where, not Nero, but the entire population is playing the violin while Rome burns. Sorry for the diatribe (and, yes, I'm accepting contributions for my children's therapy fund). -David Quoting Wade Riddick : >> I agree with Marcus. Forced reconciliation? What a joke. I don't want >> to be unsympathetic with anyone in the military, but we can't paint >> this invasion in a good light. Bush told us that Saddam had WMD. That >> was a lie. Moreover, he lied about the uranium that was supposedly >> coming from Niger (the so-called yellow cake documents). > > What was most disgusting about this lie is that Hussein already had tons of > yellowcake uranium in Iraq under U.N. seal. He had purchased it years > earlier. Bush went to the U.N. and lied and said Hussein hadn't allowed > the weapons inspectors back into Iraq when he had in fact done exactly. So > we had to pull those inspectors out of Iraq so we could bomb the Iraqis for > not letting the inspectors into Iraq. > > Follow? > > Pulling inspectors out of Iraq left that uranium depot unsupervised. Bush > was so concerned about that uranium that for months after the invasion, he > left it unguarded like so many weapons depots that terrorists just walked > into and stole supplies from to make the bombs that killed our troops. > Those of us who pointed out you had to invade Iraq with at least half a > million men to do it right, those of us who pointed out the country should > be partitioned1 - we were denounced as weak or socialists or atheists or > American-hating terrorist sympathizers. > > Bush might have denounced will-to-power in his post-9/11 speech but it's > the sword by which his political career lived and died. > > Know thyself. > > Remember Benjamin Franklin. Our critics are our friends. They show us our > faults so we can improve ourselves. > > Or as I heard some woman on TV relay from her grandmother, "Being a > Christian means fixing yourself and helping others. It doesn't mean > helping yourself and fixing others." > > I told this list eight years ago that if we allowed Bush to get into office > by breaking the law2, he would hardly be deterred from law-breaking in the > future and that's exactly what happened. He unilaterally broke half a > dozen major treaties his first year in office. He's violated the Geneva > Conventions and ordered the torture of detainees in U.S. custody (Clinton > at least tried to keep his hands clean via "rendition"). He's committed > millions of felonies by wiretapping American phone conversations without a > warrant (read the FISA statute if you don't believe me). Then there are > the Hatch Act violations in the hiring and firing or prosecutors and > Justice Department officials. What's stunning is how there is no real > major disagreement on the basic facts. The Republican leadership just > thinks they should be able to do and justify whatever they want. > > It reminds me of that line in "Murder in the Cathedral." If the laws were > trees, would you chop down every tree to get at the Devil until there was > none left to hide behind when he finally turned on you? > > I know politics isn't easy. I know nobody's perfect and campaigns take > their tolls on the families involved. Politicians have always been lucky > to get into office if a third of the electorate doesn't hate their guts. > > Life is complicated. Whether we intend to or not, we all sin and we all > break laws whether it's jay walking, pot, copyrights or something worse. > We all need forgiveness. > > But there's bad and there's worse. Government can't deliver utopia but it > can make it easier to behave better and harder to behave poorly. > > What have our leaders been doing lately? > > The Republican Party has confused ethics with self-interest. Anything it > wanted to do was by definition right. There was no doubt. There was no > debate. It's not for no reason that Republican operatives hung posters of > Lenin in their offices and talked about character the way Goebells did > ("Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character"). When > Watergate broke, you had plenty of horrified Republicans. To invoke Bob > Dole, where's the outrage lately? > > George Bush is like this drunk who's been your buddy all your life. He > finally sobers up and finds real life isn't nearly as fun without the bear > goggles on. > > So he gets depressed. To cheer him up, one Saturday you take him target > shooting in the country - but his hands are kind of shaky from the D.T.'s > so you give him a shotgun and to make sure he hits the target you line him > up in front of the side of a barn. He takes aim at the bullseye you > painted, pulls the trigger and - BLAM! - promptly proceeds to blow his own > foot off. > > While he's hopping around on his remaining foot, you criticize his aim. > "George, that it the worst shooting I've ever seen." > > George turns to you and says, "Why do you hate my freedom? Why do you > support the terrorists?" > > I think that sums up the last eight years. > > 1. Which is why we have peace today. Iraq *has* partitioned itself - > neighborhood by neighborhood instead of region by region, as Biden > suggested years ago. You have no more neighborhood violence because you > have no more heterogeneous neighborhoods. The successful parts of the > "surge" has been nothing more than bribery to sop Sunni disenchantment > combined with a Sunni/Shia rejection of nihilistic extremism. That hardly > precludes an all-out civil war in the future. > > 2. It's against the ethics clause of the bar oath for judges to rule in a > case where one of the parties has paid one of judge's kids or will pay as a > result of the ruling. Bush hired two law firms to represent him in front > of the Supreme Court. Those firms, in turn, paid two of Scalia's sons as > their employees. Bush then turned around and appointed Eugene Scalia and > Janet Rhenquist, children of justices, to high office. Eugene Scalia was a > pocket appointment, never approved by congress. > If you think that's an unfair characterization of the situation, ask > yourself what you would have thought if the most recent judge in the last > O.J. Simpson case had dismissed all the charges against Simpson with > prejudice and then four of the judge's kids had turned up six months later > on the Simpson payroll. > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From wriddick at usa.net Tue Nov 4 02:11:14 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 01:11:14 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <20081103231653.cy4gl9n23aosg4cc@webmail.iu.edu> References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: >But one question bothers me: if we can hold >impeachment hearings for a guy getting a ...well, I don't want to >offend anyone, but someone providing his lollipop to an intern, why >can't we have impeachment hearings on an administration that has >thumbed its nose at the Geneva conventions and our very own >Constitution? > >What's happened to our outrage? Impeachment is a political process. It isn't a legal proceeding. Democrats are (in my minds, a bit too) worried about a backlash from impeaching Bush similar to the one Republicans experienced in '98. If you think the right wing is crazy and enraged now (or Wednesday morning), they would really blow a gasket. Aside from a fear of the fundamentalist street (or basement, as the case may be) there's a real understanding among elites (that Bush has really strained) that power comes and goes and there are some rules you don't violate to get at your adversaries. So there would be little support for criminal prosecutions among those with power. The area of presidential power in foreign affairs is even thornier. Most Americans just don't pay much attention and when they do, the bulk of us tend to defer to the Commander in Chief. Bush's real problem is what happens after he's out of office. Presidents don't enjoy sovereign immunity for their actions in office. It's tradition that presidents don't go around prosecuting one another but then the scope of what Bush has done really spills over national borders and plenty of international elites may not respect that. I think it's unlikely Obama would prosecute Bush - but then Bush has been known to push his luck past the breaking point. If a President Obama really wanted to be vindictive, he could issue Bush a blanket pardon and then call him to testify about the things that others did in his administration. Bush would really be over a barrel then. He couldn't fall back on Fifth Amendment privilege and he could do serious jail time for perjury or refusing to talk. It's likely though - barring a war crimes indictment - that everything Bush did will all be forgotten and when he dies in thirty or forty years, people will think somewhat better of him as they did unjustifiably with Nixon. The head of government memory dims and the head of state memory remains for people. To really understand how Americans see the inside vs. the outside and political power you should study Louis Hartz's idea of the Tudor polity. It kind of explains our love of guns too. I think, on the other hand, the financial fraud *will* trigger some high profile (and deserved) prosecutions once voters start getting upset at the amounts of money Congress is shoveling into the giant crater left by the collapse of the global Ponzi scheme. >Is the fluoride dumbing us down to the >point that we are too complacent to respond? I don't understand where >the outrage has gone? The sometime righteous outrage that sparked the >civil rights movement or the protests about the Viet Nam war...what >happened? I hate to say this, but knowledge is fragmenting and this can be deadly. It's taken me years to build a model of how I got sick and why. I'm no dummy. A computer could probably have done this much more quickly than I did but there doesn't seem to be anyone in the medical community who understands the big picture of diagnostics, library research, statistical model-building and data mining - nobody at least who's got enough will and power to change the system of practicing medicine. And medical knowledge is changing at an increasingly rapid pace. I kind of feel like _Idiocracy_ is our future. I see similar problems everywhere else. We've got places we go to learn about accounting for money, seminaries to study narrow theological issues, places we learn to program computers and build bridges. Where do we go anymore to be whole people? Where do we go for community? Where do we get to talk about the big picture? Is it all about what you wear on your t-shirts? Is it like Percy's example of walking through the mall and buying a shirt? Have you got to pick a tribe and belong? Does it all boil down to branding? The internet, if anything, has only made our interactions more specialized. The more it pays to specialize, the more valuable I think it's going to be if you can see how it all ties together. > >I ask my students (who are big Obama fans), why their generation >produces mind-numbing songs like "My humps, my humps, my humps, my lady >lumps." Or something like that. Or the groups who ask such pertinent >questions as "Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot like me. Don't >'cha?" Where is today's Bob Dylan? (Sorry, I know I'm sounding like the >old fart that I knew (30 years ago) that I'd never become. But, in the >words of another great prophet, "I'm a stranger in a strange land" >(Leon Russell, for those under forty). Media and attention spans are far more fragmented than forty years ago. It's simply the case that no single person can lay claim to being America's voice or conscience any longer. That doesn't mean we've completely run out of good music. Ever heard of Jack Johnson? He's not exactly the new Dylan. "Rockin the Suburbs" by Ben Fold and William Shatner was pretty funny in _Over the Hedge_. "We drive our cars everyday to and from work both ways So we make just enough to pay to drive our cars to work each day Hey, hey We're rockin' the suburbs around the block just one more time We're rockin' the suburbs 'Cause I can't tell which house is mine We're rockin' the suburbs We part the shades and face the facts They've got better lookin' fescue right across the cul-de-sac Hot real-estate - rising stars 'get rich quick' seminars soap opera magazines Forty thousand watt nativity scenes Don't freak about the smoke alarm Mom left the TV dinner on ... We're rockin' the suburbs Everything we need is here We're rockin' the suburbs But it wasn't here last year We're rockin' the suburbs You'll never know when we are gone Because the timer lights the front and turns the cricket noises on" - Maybe the kids know more about the Bush years than we give them credit. There's a lot of brown spots still left on my lawn from the last hurricane and all the lumber that piled up. I've got to go now and tend my insulted fescue... From wriddick at usa.net Tue Nov 4 03:03:51 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 02:03:51 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <000601c93d5f$b01d0890$105719b0$@net> References: <490e23ac.6c.3510a8.17017@loyno.edu> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 7261 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Wed Nov 5 12:32:23 2008 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:32:23 EST Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 Message-ID: U have a problem with the reference to our present financial woes as a Ponzi Scheme. It has often been referred to that way in the media and as a writer on Ponzi Schemes in general, what's wrong at the moment does not strike me as being that. Both the classic Ponzi Scheme and the present horror are frauds but they are of a quite different nature as frauds -- unless that is I don't quite understand the reference in Mr Riddick's post. Please explain. Nikki Barranger **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wriddick at usa.net Wed Nov 5 21:48:15 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 20:48:15 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 6226 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Nikkibar at aol.com Fri Nov 7 01:56:16 2008 From: Nikkibar at aol.com (Nikkibar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 01:56:16 EST Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 2 Message-ID: Whether it's a classic or not ... perhaps. I'd say it was close but no cigar. The true beauty of the TRULY classic Ponzi as it has come down to us is in its utter simplicity. For my taste, the present horrendousness has a few too many smokes and mirrors. Barranger **************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve.petrica at gmail.com Sat Nov 8 11:08:49 2008 From: steve.petrica at gmail.com (Steve Petrica) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:08:49 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisisitons and Impeachments Message-ID: <29de60a0811080808h53616f25g3cbb8004078b70a4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Beck, David A wrote: But since we are veering further away from Percy, I am cautious about my > reply. But one question bothers me: if we can hold impeachment hearings for > a guy getting a ...well, I don't want to offend anyone, but someone > providing his lollipop to an intern, why can't we have impeachment hearings > on an administration that has thumbed its nose at the Geneva conventions and > our very own Constitution? > > What's happened to our outrage? Is the fluoride dumbing us down to > the point that we are too complacent to respond? I don't understand > where the outrage has gone? The sometime righteous outrage that sparked > the civil rights movement or the protests about the Viet Nam > war...what happened? I'm persuaded! Bring on the impeachment proceedings! Even before your note, this blog convinced me: http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/05/24/lets-do-it-lets-impeach-bush/ Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karey1 at charter.net Sat Nov 8 11:28:24 2008 From: karey1 at charter.net (Karey ) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:28:24 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisitions and Impeachments In-Reply-To: <29de60a0811080808h53616f25g3cbb8004078b70a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <29de60a0811080808h53616f25g3cbb8004078b70a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c941bf$061ad2f0$125078d0$@net> It's too late for impeachment - but Bush/Cheney may well be subjected to trial for war crimes - international ones by the Hague, if not national ones - once they leave office. KP From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Petrica Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 11:09 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisisitons and Impeachments On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Beck, David A wrote: But since we are veering further away from Percy, I am cautious about my reply. But one question bothers me: if we can hold impeachment hearings for a guy getting a ...well, I don't want to offend anyone, but someone providing his lollipop to an intern, why can't we have impeachment hearings on an administration that has thumbed its nose at the Geneva conventions and our very own Constitution? What's happened to our outrage? Is the fluoride dumbing us down to the point that we are too complacent to respond? I don't understand where the outrage has gone? The sometime righteous outrage that sparked the civil rights movement or the protests about the Viet Nam war...what happened? I'm persuaded! Bring on the impeachment proceedings! Even before your note, this blog convinced me: http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/05/24/lets-do-it-lets-impeach-bush/ Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Sat Nov 8 18:06:27 2008 From: marcus at loyno.edu (marcus at loyno.edu) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 17:06:27 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] War Crimes (continuing?) Message-ID: <49161b73.283.3710b8.10937@loyno.edu> I seriously doubt that Bush-Cheney will be hounded around the globe like Pinochet. But a question that President-elect Obama should be challenged on immediately is the question of continuing war crimes, i.e., the fate of as many as 20,000 "disappeared" prisoners, most Arabs, all Muslims (apparently), from around the world who have been whisked off into our secret prisons or shipped clandestinely to the prisons of "friendly" regimes. We are all complicit by our silences. Obama must quickly decide whether to speak or remain quiet about this business. If he remains quiet, then he, too, falls under the shadow of war crimes. Bush-Cheney will not be just a pathological aberration. Here's Robert Fisk in today's Independent: "There is just one little problem, though, and that's the "missing" prisoners. Not the victims who have been (still are being?) tortured in Guantanamo, but the thousands who have simply disappeared into US custody abroad or – with American help – into the prisons of US allies. Some reports speak of 20,000 missing men, most of them Arabs, all of them Muslims. Where are they? Can they be freed now? Or are they dead? If Obama finds that he is inheriting mass graves from George W Bush, there will be a lot of apologising to do." I recommend Fisk's entire article. Marcus Smith New Orleans ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 12 Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 13:21:22 -0500 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisisitons and > Impeachments > (Steve Petrica) > 2. Re: (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisitions and > Impeachments (Karey ) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:08:49 -0500 > From: "Steve Petrica" > Subject: [percy-l] (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisisitons > and > Impeachments > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Message-ID: > > <29de60a0811080808h53616f25g3cbb8004078b70a4 at mail.gmail.co > m> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Beck, David A > wrote: > > But since we are veering further away from Percy, I am > > cautious about my reply. But one question bothers me: if > > we can hold impeachment hearings for a guy getting a > > ...well, I don't want to offend anyone, but someone > providing his lollipop to an intern, why can't we have > > impeachment hearings on an administration that has > > thumbed its nose at the Geneva conventions and our very > own Constitution? > > > What's happened to our outrage? Is the fluoride dumbing > > us down to the point that we are too complacent to > > respond? I don't understand where the outrage has gone? > > The sometime righteous outrage that sparked the civil > > rights movement or the protests about the Viet Nam > war...what happened? > > > I'm persuaded! Bring on the impeachment proceedings! > Even before your note, this blog convinced me: > > http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/05/24/lets-do-it-lets-impeach-bush/ > impeach-bush/> > > Steve > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081108/cd00764a/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:28:24 -0500 > From: "Karey " > Subject: Re: [percy-l] (Farther off-topic) Re: > Inquisitions and > Impeachments > To: "'Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion'" > > Message-ID: <000c01c941bf$061ad2f0$125078d0$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's too late for impeachment - but Bush/Cheney may well > be subjected to trial for war crimes - international ones > by the Hague, if not national ones - once they leave > office. > > > > KP > > > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Steve Petrica Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2008 11:09 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] (Farther off-topic) Re: Inquisisitons > and Impeachments > > > > On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Beck, David A > wrote: > > > > But since we are veering further away from Percy, I am > cautious about my reply. But one question bothers me: if > we can hold impeachment hearings for a guy getting a > ..well, I don't want to offend anyone, but someone > providing his lollipop to an intern, why can't we have > impeachment hearings on an administration that has thumbed > its nose at the Geneva conventions and our very own > Constitution? > > What's happened to our outrage? Is the fluoride dumbing us > down to the point that we are too complacent to respond? I > don't understand where the outrage has gone? The sometime > righteous outrage that sparked the civil rights movement > or the protests about the Viet Nam war...what happened? > > > > I'm persuaded! Bring on the impeachment proceedings! > Even before your note, this blog convinced me: > > -impeach-bush/> > http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/05/24/lets-do-it-lets-impeach-bush/ > > > > Steve > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081108/ef5c4218/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 59, Issue 12 > *************************************** From karey1 at charter.net Mon Nov 10 11:31:23 2008 From: karey1 at charter.net (Karey ) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:31:23 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Is it symbol or sign? Message-ID: <004301c94351$c5283b90$4f78b2b0$@net> The parrot's two word sentence: "mama baby" = symbol or sign? (see below) Babysitter: Parrot Saved Girl's Life With Warning DENVER (CBS4) ? A babysitter's parrot is being credited with helping save the life of a 2-year-old girl who was choking Friday at a Denver area home while the sitter was in the bathroom. "While I was in the bathroom, Willie (the parrot) started screaming like I'd never heard him scream before and he started flapping his wings," said Meagan, the babysitter. "Then he started saying 'mama baby' over and over and over again until I came out and looked at Hannah and Hannah's face was turning blue because she was choking on her pop tart." Meagan performed the Heimlich maneuver on Hannah, which stopped the choking. "If (Willie) wouldn't have warned me, I probably wouldn't have come out of the bathroom in time because she was already turning blue, her lips were blue and everything," Meagan said. "If anything happened to her, I don't know what I would do," said Samantha Kuusk, Hannah's mother. "I'm very grateful for the both of them because they both saved her." Willie didn't say much when CBS4 visited on Sunday. Meagan said he is usually pretty talkative. "He says 'I love you' and he says 'mama' and he says 'step up' and some other words that aren't so nice," she said. (? MMVIII CBS Television Stations, Inc. All Rights Reserved..) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 92 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Tue Nov 25 23:26:15 2008 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:26:15 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins?? Message-ID: <20081125232615.wjw3kwzo08848kcw@webmail.iu.edu> Here is an interesting, albeit disturbing article, that sounds like a version of the U.S. as portrayed in Love in the Ruins. RUSSIAN ANALYST PREDICTS DECLINE AND BREAKUP OF USA Tue Nov 25 2008 09:04:22 ET A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts. Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily IZVESTIA published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse." The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more credence by this year's events. When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial regulator." When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in Eurasia." Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are no miracles." He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear in these crisis conditions." He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong. He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on lease, after all." Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored several books on information warfare. From armstron at ohiou.edu Wed Nov 26 11:39:12 2008 From: armstron at ohiou.edu (Ken Armstrong) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:39:12 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins?? In-Reply-To: <20081125232615.wjw3kwzo08848kcw@webmail.iu.edu> References: <20081125232615.wjw3kwzo08848kcw@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20081126113358.04f85b68@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Sometime after 9/11 I saw a newspaper article stating that Al Quaida operatives thought that after the destruction of the towers, the American people would overthrow the Bush government, or at least vote W out next election. Instead, 9/11 mostly likely gave him a second term. The Russian "analyst" here doesn't seem to exhibit any more sophistication in his grasp of the USA than the Al Quaidans. And the quotient for his self interest I suppose is obvious. Ken Armstrong At 11:26 PM 11/25/2008, you wrote: >Here is an interesting, albeit disturbing article, that sounds like a >version of the U.S. as portrayed in Love in the Ruins. > > >RUSSIAN ANALYST PREDICTS DECLINE AND BREAKUP OF USA >Tue Nov 25 2008 09:04:22 ET > >A leading Russian political analyst has said the economic turmoil in >the United States has confirmed his long-held view that the country is >heading for collapse, and will divide into separate parts. > >Professor Igor Panarin said in an interview with the respected daily >IZVESTIA published on Monday: "The dollar is not secured by anything. >The country's foreign debt has grown like an avalanche, even though in >the early 1980s there was no debt. By 1998, when I first made my >prediction, it had exceeded $2 trillion. Now it is more than 11 >trillion. This is a pyramid that can only collapse." > >The paper said Panarin's dire predictions for the U.S. economy, >initially made at an international conference in Australia 10 years ago >at a time when the economy appeared strong, have been given more >credence by this year's events. > >When asked when the U.S. economy would collapse, Panarin said: "It is >already collapsing. Due to the financial crisis, three of the largest >and oldest five banks on Wall Street have already ceased to exist, and >two are barely surviving. Their losses are the biggest in history. Now >what we will see is a change in the regulatory system on a global >financial scale: America will no longer be the world's financial >regulator." > >When asked who would replace the U.S. in regulating world markets, he >said: "Two countries could assume this role: China, with its vast >reserves, and Russia, which could play the role of a regulator in >Eurasia." > >Asked why he expected the U.S. to break up into separate parts, he >said: "A whole range of reasons. Firstly, the financial problems in the >U.S. will get worse. Millions of citizens there have lost their >savings. Prices and unemployment are on the rise. General Motors and >Ford are on the verge of collapse, and this means that whole cities >will be left without work. Governors are already insistently demanding >money from the federal center. Dissatisfaction is growing, and at the >moment it is only being held back by the elections and the hope that >Obama can work miracles. But by spring, it will be clear that there are >no miracles." > >He also cited the "vulnerable political setup", "lack of unified >national laws", and "divisions among the elite, which have become clear >in these crisis conditions." > >He predicted that the U.S. will break up into six parts - the Pacific >coast, with its growing Chinese population; the South, with its >Hispanics; Texas, where independence movements are on the rise; the >Atlantic coast, with its distinct and separate mentality; five of the >poorer central states with their large Native American populations; and >the northern states, where the influence from Canada is strong. > >He even suggested that "we could claim Alaska - it was only granted on >lease, after all." Panarin, 60, is a professor at the Diplomatic >Academy of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and has authored >several books on information warfare. > > >-- >An archive of all list discussion is available at >http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy