From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Sun Oct 5 18:56:30 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:56:30 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: List, Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk. Many echos of Percy. Wonder if he ever read Percy? Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_) speak to a common source. Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy? Bob Eckert Ft. Riley, KS From wriddick at usa.net Sun Oct 5 19:41:48 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:41:48 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >List, > >Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk. > >Many echos of Percy. > >Wonder if he ever read Percy? > >Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier >outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_) >speak to a common source. > >Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy? > No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ again the other night and his attack on the spiritual corrosiveness of consumer credit appears, in retrospect, materially prophetic. We seem to be stuck in one of those periodic economic crises where all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen have awakened to the fact that their ticker symbols and other financial instruments have drifted far afield of the underlying reality they were supposed to represent. From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Mon Oct 6 09:30:22 2008 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:30:22 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk References: Message-ID: I've always wondered the same. Haven't re-read (or seen) _Choke_ since the movie came out, but there's a wonderful passage on page 151: Every addiction...drugs or overeating or alcohol or sex, it was all just another way to find peace. To escape what we know. Our education. Our bite of the apple. Language, she said, was just our way to explain away the wonder and the glory of the world. To deconstruct. To dismiss. She said people can't deal with how beautiful the world really is. How it can't be explained and understood... "We don't live in the real world anymore," she said. "We live in a world of symbols." Like Percy also, the protagonist (Victor Mancini) also shares an incomplete medical education. But I've never heard Pahlaniuk comment on Percy in most of the interviews I've read. Gregory Plemmons -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Wade Riddick Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 6:41 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk >List, > >Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk. > >Many echos of Percy. > >Wonder if he ever read Percy? > >Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier >outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_) >speak to a common source. > >Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy? > No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ again the other night and his attack on the spiritual corrosiveness of consumer credit appears, in retrospect, materially prophetic. We seem to be stuck in one of those periodic economic crises where all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen have awakened to the fact that their ticker symbols and other financial instruments have drifted far afield of the underlying reality they were supposed to represent. -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Oct 7 20:59:24 2008 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:59:24 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no answers, but you have reawakened in me a desire to read Palahniuk--as soon as I grade the mountain of essays that I'm presently avoiding. --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:30:22 -0500From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.EduTo: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk I've always wondered the same. Haven't re-read (or seen) _Choke_ since the movie came out, but there's a wonderful passage on page 151:Every addiction...drugs or overeating or alcohol or sex, it was all just another way to find peace. To escape what we know. Our education. Our bite of the apple.Language, she said, was just our way to explain away the wonder and the glory of the world. To deconstruct. To dismiss. She said people can't deal with how beautiful the world really is. How it can't be explained and understood..."We don't live in the real world anymore," she said. "We live in a world of symbols."Like Percy also, the protagonist (Victor Mancini) also shares an incomplete medical education. But I've never heard Pahlaniuk comment on Percy in most of the interviews I've read.Gregory Plemmons-----Original Message-----From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Wade RiddickSent: Sun 10/5/2008 6:41 PMTo: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical DiscussionSubject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk>List,>>Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk.>>Many echos of Percy.>>Wonder if he ever read Percy?>>Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier>outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_)>speak to a common source.>>Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy?>No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ again the other night and his attack on thespiritual corrosiveness of consumer credit appears, in retrospect,materially prophetic. We seem to be stuck in one of those periodiceconomic crises where all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen haveawakened to the fact that their ticker symbols and other financialinstruments have drifted far afield of the underlying reality they weresupposed to represent.--An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Wed Oct 8 13:56:35 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:56:35 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: List, It is probably more the case that Palahniuk and Percy read the same philosphers. There is a reference to Heidegger in _Stranger than Fiction_. I did run across praise of Pery's prose on one of the web sites devoted to Palahniuk. Palahniuk is definitely popular with the young soldiers I work with. No doubt he speaks to recurring themes that Percy also tapped into. Bob Eckert Ft. Riley, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: RHONDA MCDONNELL Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 19:59 Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > I have no answers, but you have reawakened in me a desire to read > Palahniuk--as soon as I grade the mountain of essays that I'm > presently avoiding. > --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, > because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, > man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." > Walker Percy > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:30:22 -0500From: > gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.EduTo: percy- > l at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk > > I've always wondered the same. Haven't re-read (or seen) _Choke_ > since the movie came out, but there's a wonderful passage on page > 151:Every addiction...drugs or overeating or alcohol or sex, it > was all just another way to find peace. To escape what we know. > Our education. Our bite of the apple.Language, she said, was just > our way to explain away the wonder and the glory of the world. To > deconstruct. To dismiss. She said people can't deal with how > beautiful the world really is. How it can't be explained and > understood..."We don't live in the real world anymore," she said. > "We live in a world of symbols."Like Percy also, the protagonist > (Victor Mancini) also shares an incomplete medical education. But > I've never heard Pahlaniuk comment on Percy in most of the > interviews I've read.Gregory Plemmons-----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Wade > RiddickSent: Sun 10/5/2008 6:41 PMTo: Percy-L: Literary and > Philosophical DiscussionSubject: Re: [percy-l] > Palahniuk>List,>>Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk.>>Many > echos of Percy.>>Wonder if he ever read Percy?>>Such lines as > "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the > signifier>outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." > (p.88 _Survivor_)>speak to a common source.>>Any one know if > Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy?>No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ > again the other night and his attack on thespiritual corrosiveness > of consumer credit appears, in retrospect,materially prophetic. > We seem to be stuck in one of those periodiceconomic crises where > all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen haveawakened to the fact > that their ticker symbols and other financialinstruments have > drifted far afield of the underlying reality they weresupposed to > represent.--An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/Visit the Walker Percy > Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > _________________________________________________________________ > Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com- > Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From pbeurskens at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Wed Oct 8 14:47:17 2008 From: pbeurskens at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Peter Beurskens) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:47:17 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk References: Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Rhonda--I sympathize. I too have a mountain of essays to face. I do find it helps that I allow myself the reward of a long morning or evening of reading a book when I have completed a pile of papers. I wonder how Percy faced the task of grading--how he considered it, philosophically. But then when Percy taught, it was more creative writing and at the gradualte level, wasn't it? Anyone know? I have tried to think of grading student writing as either humanitarian or holy, but someone it doesn't help. Pete ________________________________ From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tue 10/7/2008 7:59 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk I have no answers, but you have reawakened in me a desire to read Palahniuk--as soon as I grade the mountain of essays that I'm presently avoiding. --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy ________________________________ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:30:22 -0500 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk I've always wondered the same. Haven't re-read (or seen) _Choke_ since the movie came out, but there's a wonderful passage on page 151: Every addiction...drugs or overeating or alcohol or sex, it was all just another way to find peace. To escape what we know. Our education. Our bite of the apple. Language, she said, was just our way to explain away the wonder and the glory of the world. To deconstruct. To dismiss. She said people can't deal with how beautiful the world really is. How it can't be explained and understood... "We don't live in the real world anymore," she said. "We live in a world of symbols." Like Percy also, the protagonist (Victor Mancini) also shares an incomplete medical education. But I've never heard Pahlaniuk comment on Percy in most of the interviews I've read. Gregory Plemmons -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Wade Riddick Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 6:41 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk >List, > >Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk. > >Many echos of Percy. > >Wonder if he ever read Percy? > >Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier >outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_) >speak to a common source. > >Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy? > No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ again the other night and his attack on the spiritual corrosiveness of consumer credit appears, in retrospect, materially prophetic. We seem to be stuck in one of those periodic economic crises where all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen have awakened to the fact that their ticker symbols and other financial instruments have drifted far afield of the underlying reality they were supposed to represent. -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 6956 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Wed Oct 8 22:54:27 2008 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:54:27 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <20081008225427.pqqh6wmbvos8gw40@webmail.iu.edu> Peter and Rhonda, I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in their work this week! Humanitarian or holy? Well, that's a positive spin. I see it as atonement, an act of asceticism to pay for my many sins (and if I read one more essay that starts with "In today's society...."). Just to add something percean, I used to teach CP's Fight Club with Lancelot. I later dropped the FC part, because both books touch on the same theme of starting a new society. What I found, via reading student papers, was that the two books were too similar for an intro to fiction class, so I dropped FC, because the students actually preferred Lancelot. My problem with Chuck is that he seems to be a one trick poney. For me, Choke was FC revisited, except replace violence for sex. Back to the stack. -David Quoting Peter Beurskens : > Rhonda--I sympathize. I too have a mountain of essays to face. I do > find it helps that I allow myself the reward of a long morning or > evening of reading a book when I have completed a pile of papers. I > wonder how Percy faced the task of grading--how he considered it, > philosophically. But then when Percy taught, it was more creative > writing and at the gradualte level, wasn't it? Anyone know? I have > tried to think of grading student writing as either humanitarian or > holy, but someone it doesn't help. > > Pete > > ________________________________ > > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL > Sent: Tue 10/7/2008 7:59 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk > > > I have no answers, but you have reawakened in me a desire to read > Palahniuk--as soon as I grade the mountain of essays that I'm > presently avoiding. > > > --Rhonda > > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in > spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the > faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." > > Walker Percy > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:30:22 -0500 > From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk > > I've always wondered the same. Haven't re-read (or seen) _Choke_ > since the movie came out, but there's a wonderful passage on page 151: > > Every addiction...drugs or overeating or alcohol or sex, it was all > just another way to find peace. To escape what we know. Our > education. Our bite of the apple. > Language, she said, was just our way to explain away the wonder and > the glory of the world. To deconstruct. To dismiss. She said people > can't deal with how beautiful the world really is. How it can't be > explained and understood... > > "We don't live in the real world anymore," she said. "We live in a > world of symbols." > > Like Percy also, the protagonist (Victor Mancini) also shares an > incomplete medical education. But I've never heard Pahlaniuk comment > on Percy in most of the interviews I've read. > > Gregory Plemmons > > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Wade Riddick > Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 6:41 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk > >> List, >> >> Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk. >> >> Many echos of Percy. >> >> Wonder if he ever read Percy? >> >> Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier >> outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_) >> speak to a common source. >> >> Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy? >> > > No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ again the other night and his attack on the > spiritual corrosiveness of consumer credit appears, in retrospect, > materially prophetic. We seem to be stuck in one of those periodic > economic crises where all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen have > awakened to the fact that their ticker symbols and other financial > instruments have drifted far afield of the underlying reality they were > supposed to represent. > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > ________________________________ > > Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. > Learn Now > > From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Oct 9 13:05:08 2008 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:05:08 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Palahniuk In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Pete and David for the commiseration! I somehow ended up teaching four completely different courses, two of which are online. I always have papers to grade--they hover above me like vultures! I don't remember if Percy wrote this in one of his letters to Shelby Foote or if it was in one of his essays, but he did say that he couldn't write and teach at the same time. He said he couldn't imagine how people that do pulled it off. --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:47:17 -0500From: pbeurskens at SOUTHEASTMN.EDUTo: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk Rhonda--I sympathize. I too have a mountain of essays to face. I do find it helps that I allow myself the reward of a long morning or evening of reading a book when I have completed a pile of papers. I wonder how Percy faced the task of grading--how he considered it, philosophically. But then when Percy taught, it was more creative writing and at the gradualte level, wasn't it? Anyone know? I have tried to think of grading student writing as either humanitarian or holy, but someone it doesn't help. Pete From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELLSent: Tue 10/7/2008 7:59 PMTo: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical DiscussionSubject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk I have no answers, but you have reawakened in me a desire to read Palahniuk--as soon as I grade the mountain of essays that I'm presently avoiding. --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 08:30:22 -0500From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.EduTo: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [percy-l] PalahniukI've always wondered the same. Haven't re-read (or seen) _Choke_ since the movie came out, but there's a wonderful passage on page 151:Every addiction...drugs or overeating or alcohol or sex, it was all just another way to find peace. To escape what we know. Our education. Our bite of the apple.Language, she said, was just our way to explain away the wonder and the glory of the world. To deconstruct. To dismiss. She said people can't deal with how beautiful the world really is. How it can't be explained and understood..."We don't live in the real world anymore," she said. "We live in a world of symbols."Like Percy also, the protagonist (Victor Mancini) also shares an incomplete medical education. But I've never heard Pahlaniuk comment on Percy in most of the interviews I've read.Gregory Plemmons-----Original Message-----From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Wade RiddickSent: Sun 10/5/2008 6:41 PMTo: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical DiscussionSubject: Re: [percy-l] Palahniuk>List,>>Just been reading _Survivor_ by Palahniuk.>>Many echos of Percy.>>Wonder if he ever read Percy?>>Such lines as "It's weird how the name outlives the person, the signifier>outlasts the signified, the symbol the symbolized." (p.88 _Survivor_)>speak to a common source.>>Any one know if Palahniuk ever spoke of Percy?>No, but I just saw _Fight Club_ again the other night and his attack on thespiritual corrosiveness of consumer credit appears, in retrospect,materially prophetic. We seem to be stuck in one of those periodiceconomic crises where all the supposedly "sin-less" businessmen haveawakened to the fact that their ticker symbols and other financialinstruments have drifted far afield of the underlying reality they weresupposed to represent.--An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wriddick at usa.net Sat Oct 11 17:08:00 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:08:00 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: <20081008225427.pqqh6wmbvos8gw40@webmail.iu.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: >Peter and Rhonda, > >I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up >with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in >their work this week! If I could chime in my two cents, the decline in reading and writing that's occurred in American society across the last fifty years has had a very deep and detrimental effect on our collective capacity for independent, critical thought. As life and our understanding of it grows increasingly complex, it's all-the-more crucial that we hone our analytical skills; I don't know how we do that if it's not writing and grading essays and tossing around ideas in seminars. Instead of investing in the development of these faculties, a variety of political choices has made teaching this sort of reflection more expensive and out-of-reach for the average citizen. If you or your students doubt the benefits, then let me simply say this. I doubt I would be alive today if I didn't have a degree in English and graduate classes in microeconomics and statistics under my belt. The amount of bullshit that masquerades for scientific truth in medicine today is truly staggering - and deadly. I didn't just encounter potentially fatal misinformation from one doctor; I got it from almost every corner. For example, I brought in research published in scientific journals linking gut bacteria loss to autoimmunity and one gastroenterologist told me he didn't "believe" it - as if personal "belief" is supposed to be a measure of scientific proof1 - and then he referred me to the local doctor who had first pointed me to the theory saying, "She has a good reputation with problem cases like yours." I understood instantly from game theory that he was relying on a reputational effect as a cognitive short-cut for his decision-making. But he didn't need to. All he had to do was stay current with the literature once he got out of medical school - you know, do what he's required to do by law. He believed Dr. Cave could help me because she had a "reputation" for helping problem patients no one else could deal with. What was she using? Magic? In his mind, what was her "reputation" supposed to be based on? In a competitive marketplace, economically useful information is supposed to be disseminated. If a doctor does something better than you do and you're in competition with him, you're supposed to study what he does. How does that information travel? The only source of new information for the average doctor these days seems to come from drug company reps who have economic incentives to skew their spiel. And if it's not covered by a patent, they have no incentive to discuss it. If you haven't been trained to spot subtle lies, you can't get a clear view of reality and you can't help your patients. It's like deconstruction. How do you understand what's not being said? How do you understand the gap between what is said and the underlying reality those symbols are supposed to represent? How many doctors get the kind of liberal arts education we did? For that matter, take a look at the stock market slide and ask yourself how many businessmen could benefit from a few history classes. Our economy brims with specialists who know very little about reality outside their increasingly narrow field. They cannot integrate what they know with information from even closely related fields - even when lives depend on it. The result is a comedy (or tragedy) of ironies. You see this when a rheumatologist tells patients to eat foods that make their inflammation worse because he thinks of it as a "nutritional" problem and that's beneath him.2 You see this "semiotic bubble" when the executives running A.I.G. and listening to their investment products division didn't understand the basics of forensic accounting, fraud and Ponzi schemes (or worse; perhaps they did). It's easy for the sign to drift away from the signified. Perhaps we all need a little shock every once in a while to prick the inflated bubble and shake loose the light - or, as Albert Gore, Sr., put it, "Defeat may serve as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." Having said that, when I consider the current socioeconomic and technological trends, I can't help but worry that our capacity for independent thought and collective judgment is in decline. Perhaps this upcoming political realignment will prove me wrong or at least reset the clock. I certainly hope so. If the medical examples don't stir your soul or bother your students then consider this: I've been in cash for several years now. Like Warren Buffet, Paul Krugman and a lot of other contemporary critics of our capitalism, I knew our economy was tied together with bubblegum and shoestring and Bush was running short on shoestring. Wade Riddick 1. I think T.S. Kuhn would say it is and I would agree with him; but that's entirely the problem. We don't train people to understand that their grasp on rationality is essentially a "belief" that we need to constantly question in light of new evidence - particularly in the sciences. Yet as we need more of this as scientific knowledge multiplies, we're getting less of this. 2. It's not a bad choice economically since it does make the patient sicker which then sends them running back to the rheumatologist for more medicine. Of course, it's hard to construe this as good behavior in the context of the Hippocratic oath. For another example of bad medicine, consider how many rheumatologists think it's acceptable to prescribe COX-2 inhibitors like celebrex to arthritis patients despite the fact that it makes autoimmunity worse and degrades the formation of new collagen in joints. From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Mon Oct 13 16:34:54 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:34:54 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: List This exchange has made me think of Pirsig in ZMM: "The school was what could euphemistically be called a "teaching college." At a teaching college you teach and you teach and you teach with no time for research, no time for contemplation, no time for participation in outside affairs. Just teach and teach and teach until your mind grows dull and your creativity vanishes and you become an automaton saying the same dull things over and over to endless waves of innocent students who cannot understand why you are so dull, lose respect and fan this disrespect out into the community. The reason you teach and you teach and you teach is that this is a very clever way of running a college on the cheap while giving a false appearance of genuine education." (Part II, Ch 13) Bob Eckert PS Cash, or gold? ----- Original Message ----- From: Wade Riddick Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008 16:04 Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Peter and Rhonda, > > > >I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up > >with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in > >their work this week! > > If I could chime in my two cents, the decline in reading and > writing that's > occurred in American society across the last fifty years has had a > verydeep and detrimental effect on our collective capacity for > independent,critical thought. As life and our understanding of it > grows increasingly > complex, it's all-the-more crucial that we hone our analytical > skills; I > don't know how we do that if it's not writing and grading essays and > tossing around ideas in seminars. Instead of investing in the > developmentof these faculties, a variety of political choices has > made teaching this > sort of reflection more expensive and out-of-reach for the average > citizen. > If you or your students doubt the benefits, then let me simply say > this. I > doubt I would be alive today if I didn't have a degree in English and > graduate classes in microeconomics and statistics under my belt. The > amount of bullshit that masquerades for scientific truth in > medicine today > is truly staggering - and deadly. I didn't just encounter potentially > fatal misinformation from one doctor; I got it from almost every > corner. > For example, I brought in research published in scientific > journals linking > gut bacteria loss to autoimmunity and one gastroenterologist told > me he > didn't "believe" it - as if personal "belief" is supposed to be a > measureof scientific proof1 - and then he referred me to the local > doctor who had > first pointed me to the theory saying, "She has a good reputation with > problem cases like yours." > > I understood instantly from game theory that he was relying on a > reputational effect as a cognitive short-cut for his decision- > making. But > he didn't need to. All he had to do was stay current with the > literatureonce he got out of medical school - you know, do what > he's required to do > by law. He believed Dr. Cave could help me because she had a > "reputation"for helping problem patients no one else could deal > with. What was she > using? Magic? In his mind, what was her "reputation" supposed to > be based > on? > > In a competitive marketplace, economically useful information is > supposedto be disseminated. If a doctor does something better > than you do and > you're in competition with him, you're supposed to study what he > does. How > does that information travel? The only source of new information > for the > average doctor these days seems to come from drug company reps who > haveeconomic incentives to skew their spiel. And if it's not > covered by a > patent, they have no incentive to discuss it. > > If you haven't been trained to spot subtle lies, you can't get a > clear view > of reality and you can't help your patients. It's like > deconstruction.How do you understand what's not being said? How > do you understand the gap > between what is said and the underlying reality those symbols are > supposedto represent? How many doctors get the kind of liberal > arts education we > did? For that matter, take a look at the stock market slide and ask > yourself how many businessmen could benefit from a few history > classes. > Our economy brims with specialists who know very little about reality > outside their increasingly narrow field. They cannot integrate > what they > know with information from even closely related fields - even when > livesdepend on it. The result is a comedy (or tragedy) of > ironies. You see > this when a rheumatologist tells patients to eat foods that make their > inflammation worse because he thinks of it as a "nutritional" > problem and > that's beneath him.2 You see this "semiotic bubble" when the > executivesrunning A.I.G. and listening to their investment > products division didn't > understand the basics of forensic accounting, fraud and Ponzi > schemes (or > worse; perhaps they did). > > It's easy for the sign to drift away from the signified. Perhaps > we all > need a little shock every once in a while to prick the inflated > bubble and > shake loose the light - or, as Albert Gore, Sr., put it, "Defeat > may serve > as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." > > Having said that, when I consider the current socioeconomic and > technological trends, I can't help but worry that our capacity for > independent thought and collective judgment is in decline. > Perhaps this > upcoming political realignment will prove me wrong or at least > reset the > clock. I certainly hope so. > > If the medical examples don't stir your soul or bother your > students then > consider this: I've been in cash for several years now. Like Warren > Buffet, Paul Krugman and a lot of other contemporary critics of our > capitalism, I knew our economy was tied together with bubblegum and > shoestring and Bush was running short on shoestring. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. I think T.S. Kuhn would say it is and I would agree with him; but > that's entirely the problem. We don't train people to understand that > their grasp on rationality is essentially a "belief" that we need to > constantly question in light of new evidence - particularly in the > sciences. Yet as we need more of this as scientific knowledge > multiplies,we're getting less of this. > > 2. It's not a bad choice economically since it does make the patient > sicker which then sends them running back to the rheumatologist > for more > medicine. Of course, it's hard to construe this as good behavior > in the > context of the Hippocratic oath. For another example of bad medicine, > consider how many rheumatologists think it's acceptable to > prescribe COX-2 > inhibitors like celebrex to arthritis patients despite the fact > that it > makes autoimmunity worse and degrades the formation of new > collagen in > joints. > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From pbeurskens at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU Mon Oct 13 17:23:03 2008 From: pbeurskens at SOUTHEASTMN.EDU (Peter Beurskens) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:23:03 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA003ECB536@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Gee, I keep thinking of becoming a truck driver instead of a college English teacher--more time to think and write. The Persig quote only adds to my existential stewing about the problem of teaching. Cormac McCarthy says teaching writing is a racket. I think Percy would agree. I sometimes feel like Will Barrett in The Last Gentleman, down in the department store basement. As long as I don't have much contact with the outside world, I am fine. Take out the telescope, though, and it is hard to stay settled. Am I reading that character right? Pete -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 3:35 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays List This exchange has made me think of Pirsig in ZMM: "The school was what could euphemistically be called a "teaching college." At a teaching college you teach and you teach and you teach with no time for research, no time for contemplation, no time for participation in outside affairs. Just teach and teach and teach until your mind grows dull and your creativity vanishes and you become an automaton saying the same dull things over and over to endless waves of innocent students who cannot understand why you are so dull, lose respect and fan this disrespect out into the community. The reason you teach and you teach and you teach is that this is a very clever way of running a college on the cheap while giving a false appearance of genuine education." (Part II, Ch 13) Bob Eckert PS Cash, or gold? ----- Original Message ----- From: Wade Riddick Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008 16:04 Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >Peter and Rhonda, > > > >I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up > >with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in > >their work this week! > > If I could chime in my two cents, the decline in reading and > writing that's > occurred in American society across the last fifty years has had a > verydeep and detrimental effect on our collective capacity for > independent,critical thought. As life and our understanding of it > grows increasingly > complex, it's all-the-more crucial that we hone our analytical > skills; I > don't know how we do that if it's not writing and grading essays and > tossing around ideas in seminars. Instead of investing in the > developmentof these faculties, a variety of political choices has > made teaching this > sort of reflection more expensive and out-of-reach for the average > citizen. > If you or your students doubt the benefits, then let me simply say > this. I > doubt I would be alive today if I didn't have a degree in English and > graduate classes in microeconomics and statistics under my belt. The > amount of bullshit that masquerades for scientific truth in > medicine today > is truly staggering - and deadly. I didn't just encounter potentially > fatal misinformation from one doctor; I got it from almost every > corner. > For example, I brought in research published in scientific > journals linking > gut bacteria loss to autoimmunity and one gastroenterologist told > me he > didn't "believe" it - as if personal "belief" is supposed to be a > measureof scientific proof1 - and then he referred me to the local > doctor who had > first pointed me to the theory saying, "She has a good reputation with > problem cases like yours." > > I understood instantly from game theory that he was relying on a > reputational effect as a cognitive short-cut for his decision- > making. But > he didn't need to. All he had to do was stay current with the > literatureonce he got out of medical school - you know, do what > he's required to do > by law. He believed Dr. Cave could help me because she had a > "reputation"for helping problem patients no one else could deal > with. What was she > using? Magic? In his mind, what was her "reputation" supposed to > be based > on? > > In a competitive marketplace, economically useful information is > supposedto be disseminated. If a doctor does something better > than you do and > you're in competition with him, you're supposed to study what he > does. How > does that information travel? The only source of new information > for the > average doctor these days seems to come from drug company reps who > haveeconomic incentives to skew their spiel. And if it's not > covered by a > patent, they have no incentive to discuss it. > > If you haven't been trained to spot subtle lies, you can't get a > clear view > of reality and you can't help your patients. It's like > deconstruction.How do you understand what's not being said? How > do you understand the gap > between what is said and the underlying reality those symbols are > supposedto represent? How many doctors get the kind of liberal > arts education we > did? For that matter, take a look at the stock market slide and ask > yourself how many businessmen could benefit from a few history > classes. > Our economy brims with specialists who know very little about reality > outside their increasingly narrow field. They cannot integrate > what they > know with information from even closely related fields - even when > livesdepend on it. The result is a comedy (or tragedy) of > ironies. You see > this when a rheumatologist tells patients to eat foods that make their > inflammation worse because he thinks of it as a "nutritional" > problem and > that's beneath him.2 You see this "semiotic bubble" when the > executivesrunning A.I.G. and listening to their investment > products division didn't > understand the basics of forensic accounting, fraud and Ponzi > schemes (or > worse; perhaps they did). > > It's easy for the sign to drift away from the signified. Perhaps > we all > need a little shock every once in a while to prick the inflated > bubble and > shake loose the light - or, as Albert Gore, Sr., put it, "Defeat > may serve > as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." > > Having said that, when I consider the current socioeconomic and > technological trends, I can't help but worry that our capacity for > independent thought and collective judgment is in decline. > Perhaps this > upcoming political realignment will prove me wrong or at least > reset the > clock. I certainly hope so. > > If the medical examples don't stir your soul or bother your > students then > consider this: I've been in cash for several years now. Like Warren > Buffet, Paul Krugman and a lot of other contemporary critics of our > capitalism, I knew our economy was tied together with bubblegum and > shoestring and Bush was running short on shoestring. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. I think T.S. Kuhn would say it is and I would agree with him; but > that's entirely the problem. We don't train people to understand that > their grasp on rationality is essentially a "belief" that we need to > constantly question in light of new evidence - particularly in the > sciences. Yet as we need more of this as scientific knowledge > multiplies,we're getting less of this. > > 2. It's not a bad choice economically since it does make the patient > sicker which then sends them running back to the rheumatologist > for more > medicine. Of course, it's hard to construe this as good behavior > in the > context of the Hippocratic oath. For another example of bad medicine, > consider how many rheumatologists think it's acceptable to > prescribe COX-2 > inhibitors like celebrex to arthritis patients despite the fact > that it > makes autoimmunity worse and degrades the formation of new > collagen in > joints. > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Mon Oct 13 17:41:40 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:41:40 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA003ECB536@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA003ECB536@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: List Hemingway recommended combat for writers. KBR pays $200,000 a year to fuel truck drivers. CPL Eckert Ft. Riley, KS ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Beurskens Date: Monday, October 13, 2008 16:23 Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > Gee, I keep thinking of becoming a truck driver instead of a college > English teacher--more time to think and write. The Persig quote only > adds to my existential stewing about the problem of teaching. Cormac > McCarthy says teaching writing is a racket. I think Percy would > agree. > > I sometimes feel like Will Barrett in The Last Gentleman, down in the > department store basement. As long as I don't have much contact with > the outside world, I am fine. Take out the telescope, though, and > it is > hard to stay settled. Am I reading that character right? > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Eckert, > Robert G > SPC MIL USA FORSCOM > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 3:35 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays > > List > > This exchange has made me think of Pirsig in ZMM: > > "The school was what could euphemistically be called a "teaching > college." At a teaching college you teach and you teach and you teach > with no time for research, no time for contemplation, no time for > participation in outside affairs. Just teach and teach and teach until > your mind grows dull and your creativity vanishes and you become an > automaton saying the same dull things over and over to endless > waves of > innocent students who cannot understand why you are so dull, lose > respect and fan this disrespect out into the community. The reason you > teach and you teach and you teach is that this is a very clever > way of > running a college on the cheap while giving a false appearance of > genuine education." (Part II, Ch 13) > > Bob Eckert > > > PS > > Cash, or gold? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wade Riddick < > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008 16:04 > Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > < > > > > >Peter and Rhonda, > > > > > >I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up > > >with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in > > >their work this week! > > > > If I could chime in my two cents, the decline in reading and > > writing that's > > occurred in American society across the last fifty years has had a > > verydeep and detrimental effect on our collective capacity for > > independent,critical thought. As life and our understanding of it > > grows increasingly > > complex, it's all-the-more crucial that we hone our analytical > > skills; I > > don't know how we do that if it's not writing and grading essays and > > tossing around ideas in seminars. Instead of investing in the > > developmentof these faculties, a variety of political choices has > > made teaching this > > sort of reflection more expensive and out-of-reach for the average > > citizen. > > If you or your students doubt the benefits, then let me simply say > > this. I > > doubt I would be alive today if I didn't have a degree in English and > > graduate classes in microeconomics and statistics under my belt. The > > amount of bullshit that masquerades for scientific truth in > > medicine today > > is truly staggering - and deadly. I didn't just encounter potentially > > fatal misinformation from one doctor; I got it from almost every > > corner. > > For example, I brought in research published in scientific > > journals linking > > gut bacteria loss to autoimmunity and one gastroenterologist told > > me he > > didn't "believe" it - as if personal "belief" is supposed to be a > > measureof scientific proof1 - and then he referred me to the local > > doctor who had > > first pointed me to the theory saying, "She has a good reputation with > > problem cases like yours." > > > > I understood instantly from game theory that he was relying on a > > reputational effect as a cognitive short-cut for his decision- > > making. But > > he didn't need to. All he had to do was stay current with the > > literatureonce he got out of medical school - you know, do what > > he's required to do > > by law. He believed Dr. Cave could help me because she had a > > "reputation"for helping problem patients no one else could deal > > with. What was she > > using? Magic? In his mind, what was her "reputation" supposed to > > be based > > on? > > > > In a competitive marketplace, economically useful information is > > supposedto be disseminated. If a doctor does something better > > than you do and > > you're in competition with him, you're supposed to study what he > > does. How > > does that information travel? The only source of new information > > for the > > average doctor these days seems to come from drug company reps who > > haveeconomic incentives to skew their spiel. And if it's not > > covered by a > > patent, they have no incentive to discuss it. > > > > If you haven't been trained to spot subtle lies, you can't get a > > clear view > > of reality and you can't help your patients. It's like > > deconstruction.How do you understand what's not being said? How > > do you understand the gap > > between what is said and the underlying reality those symbols are > > supposedto represent? How many doctors get the kind of liberal > > arts education we > > did? For that matter, take a look at the stock market slide and ask > > yourself how many businessmen could benefit from a few history > > classes. > > Our economy brims with specialists who know very little about reality > > outside their increasingly narrow field. They cannot integrate > > what they > > know with information from even closely related fields - even when > > livesdepend on it. The result is a comedy (or tragedy) of > > ironies. You see > > this when a rheumatologist tells patients to eat foods that make their > > inflammation worse because he thinks of it as a "nutritional" > > problem and > > that's beneath him.2 You see this "semiotic bubble" when the > > executivesrunning A.I.G. and listening to their investment > > products division didn't > > understand the basics of forensic accounting, fraud and Ponzi > > schemes (or > > worse; perhaps they did). > > > > It's easy for the sign to drift away from the signified. Perhaps > > we all > > need a little shock every once in a while to prick the inflated > > bubble and > > shake loose the light - or, as Albert Gore, Sr., put it, "Defeat > > may serve > > as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." > > > > Having said that, when I consider the current socioeconomic and > > technological trends, I can't help but worry that our capacity for > > independent thought and collective judgment is in decline. > > Perhaps this > > upcoming political realignment will prove me wrong or at least > > reset the > > clock. I certainly hope so. > > > > If the medical examples don't stir your soul or bother your > > students then > > consider this: I've been in cash for several years now. Like Warren > > Buffet, Paul Krugman and a lot of other contemporary critics of our > > capitalism, I knew our economy was tied together with bubblegum and > > shoestring and Bush was running short on shoestring. > > > > Wade Riddick > > > > 1. I think T.S. Kuhn would say it is and I would agree with him; but > > that's entirely the problem. We don't train people to understand that > > their grasp on rationality is essentially a "belief" that we need to > > constantly question in light of new evidence - particularly in the > > sciences. Yet as we need more of this as scientific knowledge > > multiplies,we're getting less of this. > > > > 2. It's not a bad choice economically since it does make the patient > > sicker which then sends them running back to the rheumatologist > > for more > > medicine. Of course, it's hard to construe this as good behavior > > in the > > context of the Hippocratic oath. For another example of bad medicine, > > consider how many rheumatologists think it's acceptable to > > prescribe COX-2 > > inhibitors like celebrex to arthritis patients despite the fact > > that it > > makes autoimmunity worse and degrades the formation of new > > collagen in > > joints. > > > > > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From dabeck at iupui.edu Mon Oct 13 21:35:45 2008 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:35:45 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> Message-ID: <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> Bob, Maybe it is because I have stack of freshman comp portfolios leering at me, I tend to agree with Pirsig. I know my "creative" writing has diminished to near nothing. I somewhat jokingly tell my students, "Those who can't make it as fulltime writers, teach writing." (I remember Jackson Browne's lyrics about the Pretender "who started out so young and strong/Only to surrender.") In our defense, I do think, however, that freshman comp does teach more than writing: i.e. critical thinking and evaluation of sources. But, believe me, the reason I teach writing is because freshman comp is the only way to keep a job here. My favorite class to teach is Sin and Redemption in Fiction. In order to keep that gig, I teach writing. Freshman comp is the money-maker. ALL freshman have to take it. The second half (of freshman comp) is a little more rewarding (some of them can actually fog a mirror). Well, back to the pile. Wish me well! -David Quoting "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" : > List > > This exchange has made me think of Pirsig in ZMM: > > "The school was what could euphemistically be called a "teaching > college." At a teaching college you teach and you teach and you teach > with no time for research, no time for contemplation, no time for > participation in outside affairs. Just teach and teach and teach > until your mind grows dull and your creativity vanishes and you > become an automaton saying the same dull things over and over to > endless waves of innocent students who cannot understand why you are > so dull, lose respect and fan this disrespect out into the community. > The reason you teach and you teach and you teach is that this is a > very clever way of running a college on the cheap while giving a > false appearance of genuine education." (Part II, Ch 13) > > Bob Eckert > > > PS > > Cash, or gold? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Wade Riddick > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008 16:04 > Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > >> >Peter and Rhonda, >> > >> >I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up >> >with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in >> >their work this week! >> >> If I could chime in my two cents, the decline in reading and >> writing that's >> occurred in American society across the last fifty years has had a >> verydeep and detrimental effect on our collective capacity for >> independent,critical thought. As life and our understanding of it >> grows increasingly >> complex, it's all-the-more crucial that we hone our analytical >> skills; I >> don't know how we do that if it's not writing and grading essays and >> tossing around ideas in seminars. Instead of investing in the >> developmentof these faculties, a variety of political choices has >> made teaching this >> sort of reflection more expensive and out-of-reach for the average >> citizen. >> If you or your students doubt the benefits, then let me simply say >> this. I >> doubt I would be alive today if I didn't have a degree in English and >> graduate classes in microeconomics and statistics under my belt. The >> amount of bullshit that masquerades for scientific truth in >> medicine today >> is truly staggering - and deadly. I didn't just encounter potentially >> fatal misinformation from one doctor; I got it from almost every >> corner. >> For example, I brought in research published in scientific >> journals linking >> gut bacteria loss to autoimmunity and one gastroenterologist told >> me he >> didn't "believe" it - as if personal "belief" is supposed to be a >> measureof scientific proof1 - and then he referred me to the local >> doctor who had >> first pointed me to the theory saying, "She has a good reputation with >> problem cases like yours." >> >> I understood instantly from game theory that he was relying on a >> reputational effect as a cognitive short-cut for his decision- >> making. But >> he didn't need to. All he had to do was stay current with the >> literatureonce he got out of medical school - you know, do what >> he's required to do >> by law. He believed Dr. Cave could help me because she had a >> "reputation"for helping problem patients no one else could deal >> with. What was she >> using? Magic? In his mind, what was her "reputation" supposed to >> be based >> on? >> >> In a competitive marketplace, economically useful information is >> supposedto be disseminated. If a doctor does something better >> than you do and >> you're in competition with him, you're supposed to study what he >> does. How >> does that information travel? The only source of new information >> for the >> average doctor these days seems to come from drug company reps who >> haveeconomic incentives to skew their spiel. And if it's not >> covered by a >> patent, they have no incentive to discuss it. >> >> If you haven't been trained to spot subtle lies, you can't get a >> clear view >> of reality and you can't help your patients. It's like >> deconstruction.How do you understand what's not being said? How >> do you understand the gap >> between what is said and the underlying reality those symbols are >> supposedto represent? How many doctors get the kind of liberal >> arts education we >> did? For that matter, take a look at the stock market slide and ask >> yourself how many businessmen could benefit from a few history >> classes. >> Our economy brims with specialists who know very little about reality >> outside their increasingly narrow field. They cannot integrate >> what they >> know with information from even closely related fields - even when >> livesdepend on it. The result is a comedy (or tragedy) of >> ironies. You see >> this when a rheumatologist tells patients to eat foods that make their >> inflammation worse because he thinks of it as a "nutritional" >> problem and >> that's beneath him.2 You see this "semiotic bubble" when the >> executivesrunning A.I.G. and listening to their investment >> products division didn't >> understand the basics of forensic accounting, fraud and Ponzi >> schemes (or >> worse; perhaps they did). >> >> It's easy for the sign to drift away from the signified. Perhaps >> we all >> need a little shock every once in a while to prick the inflated >> bubble and >> shake loose the light - or, as Albert Gore, Sr., put it, "Defeat >> may serve >> as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." >> >> Having said that, when I consider the current socioeconomic and >> technological trends, I can't help but worry that our capacity for >> independent thought and collective judgment is in decline. >> Perhaps this >> upcoming political realignment will prove me wrong or at least >> reset the >> clock. I certainly hope so. >> >> If the medical examples don't stir your soul or bother your >> students then >> consider this: I've been in cash for several years now. Like Warren >> Buffet, Paul Krugman and a lot of other contemporary critics of our >> capitalism, I knew our economy was tied together with bubblegum and >> shoestring and Bush was running short on shoestring. >> >> Wade Riddick >> >> 1. I think T.S. Kuhn would say it is and I would agree with him; but >> that's entirely the problem. We don't train people to understand that >> their grasp on rationality is essentially a "belief" that we need to >> constantly question in light of new evidence - particularly in the >> sciences. Yet as we need more of this as scientific knowledge >> multiplies,we're getting less of this. >> >> 2. It's not a bad choice economically since it does make the patient >> sicker which then sends them running back to the rheumatologist >> for more >> medicine. Of course, it's hard to construe this as good behavior >> in the >> context of the Hippocratic oath. For another example of bad medicine, >> consider how many rheumatologists think it's acceptable to >> prescribe COX-2 >> inhibitors like celebrex to arthritis patients despite the fact >> that it >> makes autoimmunity worse and degrades the formation of new >> collagen in >> joints. >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Thu Oct 16 09:25:02 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:25:02 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> References: <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: David, Pirsig no doubt overstates it. He did believe that his teaching load contributed to his going insane--probably left him with a bad taste. SUNY Brockport had a policy that required all the teachers there to teach some freshman comp. The head of the philosophy department hated it. I wonder if kids are writing less, or just different. If texting is writing, then they are doing an awful lot of it. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beck, David A" Date: Monday, October 13, 2008 20:35 Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Bob, > > Maybe it is because I have stack of freshman comp portfolios > leering at > me, I tend to agree with Pirsig. I know my "creative" writing has > diminished to near nothing. I somewhat jokingly tell my students, > "Those who can't make it as fulltime writers, teach writing." (I > remember Jackson Browne's lyrics about the Pretender "who started > out > so young and strong/Only to surrender.") > > In our defense, I do think, however, that freshman comp does teach > more > than writing: i.e. critical thinking and evaluation of sources. > But, > believe me, the reason I teach writing is because freshman comp is > the > only way to keep a job here. My favorite class to teach is Sin and > Redemption in Fiction. In order to keep that gig, I teach writing. > Freshman comp is the money-maker. ALL freshman have to take it. > The > second half (of freshman comp) is a little more rewarding (some of > them > can actually fog a mirror). > > Well, back to the pile. Wish me well! > > -David > > > Quoting "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" <: > > > List > > > > This exchange has made me think of Pirsig in ZMM: > > > > "The school was what could euphemistically be called a "teaching > > college." At a teaching college you teach and you teach and you teach > > with no time for research, no time for contemplation, no time for > > participation in outside affairs. Just teach and teach and teach > > until your mind grows dull and your creativity vanishes and you > > become an automaton saying the same dull things over and over to > > endless waves of innocent students who cannot understand why you are > > so dull, lose respect and fan this disrespect out into the community. > > The reason you teach and you teach and you teach is that this is a > > very clever way of running a college on the cheap while giving a > > false appearance of genuine education." (Part II, Ch 13) > > > > Bob Eckert > > > > > > PS > > > > Cash, or gold? > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Wade Riddick < > > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008 16:04 > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > < > > > > > >> >Peter and Rhonda, > >> > > >> >I too sympathize. I normally stagger my assignments, but I messed up > >> >with my cut and past job on my syllabi. All four classes turned in > >> >their work this week! > >> > >> If I could chime in my two cents, the decline in reading and > >> writing that's > >> occurred in American society across the last fifty years has had a > >> verydeep and detrimental effect on our collective capacity for > >> independent,critical thought. As life and our understanding of it > >> grows increasingly > >> complex, it's all-the-more crucial that we hone our analytical > >> skills; I > >> don't know how we do that if it's not writing and grading essays and > >> tossing around ideas in seminars. Instead of investing in the > >> developmentof these faculties, a variety of political choices has > >> made teaching this > >> sort of reflection more expensive and out-of-reach for the average > >> citizen. > >> If you or your students doubt the benefits, then let me simply say > >> this. I > >> doubt I would be alive today if I didn't have a degree in English and > >> graduate classes in microeconomics and statistics under my belt. The > >> amount of bullshit that masquerades for scientific truth in > >> medicine today > >> is truly staggering - and deadly. I didn't just encounter potentially > >> fatal misinformation from one doctor; I got it from almost every > >> corner. > >> For example, I brought in research published in scientific > >> journals linking > >> gut bacteria loss to autoimmunity and one gastroenterologist told > >> me he > >> didn't "believe" it - as if personal "belief" is supposed to be a > >> measureof scientific proof1 - and then he referred me to the local > >> doctor who had > >> first pointed me to the theory saying, "She has a good reputation with > >> problem cases like yours." > >> > >> I understood instantly from game theory that he was relying on a > >> reputational effect as a cognitive short-cut for his decision- > >> making. But > >> he didn't need to. All he had to do was stay current with the > >> literatureonce he got out of medical school - you know, do what > >> he's required to do > >> by law. He believed Dr. Cave could help me because she had a > >> "reputation"for helping problem patients no one else could deal > >> with. What was she > >> using? Magic? In his mind, what was her "reputation" supposed to > >> be based > >> on? > >> > >> In a competitive marketplace, economically useful information is > >> supposedto be disseminated. If a doctor does something better > >> than you do and > >> you're in competition with him, you're supposed to study what he > >> does. How > >> does that information travel? The only source of new information > >> for the > >> average doctor these days seems to come from drug company reps who > >> haveeconomic incentives to skew their spiel. And if it's not > >> covered by a > >> patent, they have no incentive to discuss it. > >> > >> If you haven't been trained to spot subtle lies, you can't get a > >> clear view > >> of reality and you can't help your patients. It's like > >> deconstruction.How do you understand what's not being said? How > >> do you understand the gap > >> between what is said and the underlying reality those symbols are > >> supposedto represent? How many doctors get the kind of liberal > >> arts education we > >> did? For that matter, take a look at the stock market slide and ask > >> yourself how many businessmen could benefit from a few history > >> classes. > >> Our economy brims with specialists who know very little about reality > >> outside their increasingly narrow field. They cannot integrate > >> what they > >> know with information from even closely related fields - even when > >> livesdepend on it. The result is a comedy (or tragedy) of > >> ironies. You see > >> this when a rheumatologist tells patients to eat foods that make their > >> inflammation worse because he thinks of it as a "nutritional" > >> problem and > >> that's beneath him.2 You see this "semiotic bubble" when the > >> executivesrunning A.I.G. and listening to their investment > >> products division didn't > >> understand the basics of forensic accounting, fraud and Ponzi > >> schemes (or > >> worse; perhaps they did). > >> > >> It's easy for the sign to drift away from the signified. Perhaps > >> we all > >> need a little shock every once in a while to prick the inflated > >> bubble and > >> shake loose the light - or, as Albert Gore, Sr., put it, "Defeat > >> may serve > >> as well as victory to shake the soul and let the glory out." > >> > >> Having said that, when I consider the current socioeconomic and > >> technological trends, I can't help but worry that our capacity for > >> independent thought and collective judgment is in decline. > >> Perhaps this > >> upcoming political realignment will prove me wrong or at least > >> reset the > >> clock. I certainly hope so. > >> > >> If the medical examples don't stir your soul or bother your > >> students then > >> consider this: I've been in cash for several years now. Like Warren > >> Buffet, Paul Krugman and a lot of other contemporary critics of our > >> capitalism, I knew our economy was tied together with bubblegum and > >> shoestring and Bush was running short on shoestring. > >> > >> Wade Riddick > >> > >> 1. I think T.S. Kuhn would say it is and I would agree with him; but > >> that's entirely the problem. We don't train people to understand that > >> their grasp on rationality is essentially a "belief" that we need to > >> constantly question in light of new evidence - particularly in the > >> sciences. Yet as we need more of this as scientific knowledge > >> multiplies,we're getting less of this. > >> > >> 2. It's not a bad choice economically since it does make the patient > >> sicker which then sends them running back to the rheumatologist > >> for more > >> medicine. Of course, it's hard to construe this as good behavior > >> in the > >> context of the Hippocratic oath. For another example of bad medicine, > >> consider how many rheumatologists think it's acceptable to > >> prescribe COX-2 > >> inhibitors like celebrex to arthritis patients despite the fact > >> that it > >> makes autoimmunity worse and degrades the formation of new > >> collagen in > >> joints. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> An archive of all list discussion is available at > >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >> > >> Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wriddick at usa.net Thu Oct 16 13:02:03 2008 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:02:03 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: References: <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: >I wonder if kids are writing less, or just different. If texting is >writing, then they are doing an awful lot of it. > I don't think there's much depth or self-reflection that occurs in 'texting' - at least compared to regular writing. I don't know. I just wouldn't wait for a socratic dialogue to pop out of my cell phone. It's like waiting for the room of typing monkey's to pop out Shakespeare. It's ironic. People need to read and write more to achieve greater depth and yet technology has chopped up words into their smallest emissions, emptied of nuance and complexity. We're speaking more and saying less. Due to the limits of our thumbs and the size of a keyboard that can fit in our pocket, we even have to compress the spelling of our words. What's next? Hieroglyphics? I, for one, don't have faith that "new" communications technologies will usher in some sort of improved social order. We're reshuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, hoping this magically produces a new life raft. Interest groups can hijack just about any means of communication. We're lead where we want to get lead. If we're unwilling to invest in our own thought processes, we shouldn't be surprised down the road when we get outfoxed by ourselves. From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Thu Oct 16 13:32:19 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:32:19 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] College Essays In-Reply-To: References: <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <3920C4B0B41025479F39D775289D7AA0039973F6@wa-SEex.Southeasttech.edu> <20081013213545.6pvj54cauc4ssg84@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: Wade, You are certainly right about the depth of text messages. One thing communications technology is doing is bringing into being and expanding DeChardin's "Noosphere" (comparable to Peirce's thirdness.) For good and ill, we are practically never outside of the communication network--"can you hear me now?" There are not too many places in the world left that cannot be accessed from anywhere by relatively inexpensive cell phones. The expansion of communication shrinks the world community. This can lead to greater peace and it can facilitate the clashing of civilizations. Business relationships and religious conflicts can occur between people who live on opposite sides of the globe. I try to share DeChardin's optimism regarding human nature, that this increasing convergance will lead to good things, not bad, to community, not clash. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: Wade Riddick Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:07 Subject: Re: [percy-l] College Essays To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >I wonder if kids are writing less, or just different. If texting is > >writing, then they are doing an awful lot of it. > > > > I don't think there's much depth or self-reflection that occurs in > 'texting' - at least compared to regular writing. I don't know. > I just > wouldn't wait for a socratic dialogue to pop out of my cell phone. > It's > like waiting for the room of typing monkey's to pop out Shakespeare. > > It's ironic. People need to read and write more to achieve > greater depth > and yet technology has chopped up words into their smallest emissions, > emptied of nuance and complexity. We're speaking more and saying > less.Due to the limits of our thumbs and the size of a keyboard > that can fit in > our pocket, we even have to compress the spelling of our words. > What'snext? Hieroglyphics? > > I, for one, don't have faith that "new" communications > technologies will > usher in some sort of improved social order. We're reshuffling > deck chairs > on the Titanic, hoping this magically produces a new life raft. > Interestgroups can hijack just about any means of communication. > We're lead where > we want to get lead. If we're unwilling to invest in our own thought > processes, we shouldn't be surprised down the road when we get > outfoxed by > ourselves. > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil Thu Oct 30 21:44:10 2008 From: robert.g.eckert at us.army.mil (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism Message-ID: List, Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste of time or the beginning of something good? Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are we beginning the process of communication and community formation between disparate cultures that has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each other? I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of course. Will history agree that the effort and lives and injury and labor of our service members was worth it? Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Fri Oct 31 13:49:01 2008 From: marcus at loyno.edu (marcus at loyno.edu) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:49:01 -0600 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 Message-ID: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list), but I think using WP as a reference point or touchstone for verification of events and policies in the present world--such as the decision to invade Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the reason for this is that he remained alert and ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to the end. I think Percy probably would not see history an allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? Other may have different opinions. Marcus Smith New Orleans ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > List, > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste of > time or the beginning of something good? > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are we > beginning the process of communication and community > formation between disparate cultures that has since time > immemorial begun with bloodshed? > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground > upon which we cooperate with each other, not kill each > other? > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of course. > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and injury > and labor of our service members was worth it? > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > ************************************** From kterrell at sheastokes.com Fri Oct 31 13:58:52 2008 From: kterrell at sheastokes.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:58:52 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> References: <490b450d.2cf.c70ba.10434@loyno.edu> Message-ID: What about the Inquisition? -----Original Message----- From: percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of marcus at loyno.edu Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 1:49 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 I think Bob has every right to raise the questions he does (though not sure they warrant posting on this list), but I think using WP as a reference point or touchstone for verification of events and policies in the present world--such as the decision to invade Iraq--is asking for impossible. My experience with Percy is that he was predictable and unpredictable, always nuanced in ways that caught me by surprise. And the reason for this is that he remained alert and ingtellectually (and spiritually) active all the way to the end. I think Percy probably would not see history an allegorical figure. "Will history agree...." Obviously, yes and no for a very long time. Maybe forever. Does "history" agree on the Crusades? Are you going to submit this question to Southern Baptists? Moslem scholars? Other may have different opinions. Marcus Smith New Orleans ----- Original Message Follows ----- From: percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:21:33 -0400 > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > (Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:44:10 -0500 > From: "Eckert, Robert G SPC MIL USA FORSCOM" > > Subject: [percy-l] War :Christianity, Islam and Judaism > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > List, > > Would Percy consider the present war in Iraq a waste of time or the > beginning of something good? > > Are we wasting lives and money on foolishness, or are we beginning the > process of communication and community formation between disparate > cultures that has since time immemorial begun with bloodshed? > > Can Islam, Judaism and Christianity find common ground upon which we > cooperate with each other, not kill each other? > > I think Bush made the right decision. Mistakes, of course. > > Will history agree that the effort and lives and injury and labor of > our service members was worth it? > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20081030/cdc619e2 /attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 > ************************************** -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit the Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ********************************************************* PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION This e-mail and any attachments transmitted are legally privileged and confidential, and are intended only for the individual or entity to whom it is directed. 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