From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jul 1 01:13:26 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:13:26 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: Greg, list, Having a Physician's perspective on this novel puts an extra light on the Honey Swamp episode. While atom maintains he loves his fellow man "least of all," he doesn't hesitate to help. I hadn't questioned, though, what his motive is in telling us that he does. He suffers from pride, if we want to head into 7 deadly sin territory. Is this pride too, or does it from some other function in the narrative? And what about Hester? Hard to miss the allusion to Hester Prynne, but what does a Hester do in the last half of the 20th century? Interesting that you bring up the home schoolers, who I've found to be an odd lot in my dealings with them, and as widely varied as you describe. The ones I've met do an abominable job of educating their young, though I'm sure that isn't universal. I don't see them as the equivalent of the swamp folks though. Having driven through coastal Northern California and southern Oregon, I sense the drop outs may be camping out there, where people still blithely hitchhike, smoke dope, and seem by and large like the kids Percy describes. In the meantime, the polarization quotient just ramped up by 100 degrees or so following the Supreme Court's ruling. Batten down the hatches, folks, we've got new storms a-brewing. Happy reading! Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 29, 2014, at 7:12 PM, "Plemmons, Gregory" wrote: > > The beauty of a great novel is that you can never see it for what it is, but only through your peculiar space and time?each and every time you reread it, something else shimmers through. I think I first read Love long before finishing medical school, but I immediately take a liking to meeting Dr. More again and particularly the opening section on this go-round. I trained in pediatrics, so I?m 100% biased and partial to the scene where Tom rescues that shriveled up baby with a ?bottle of glucose from a loblolly twig.? It seems that he chooses to do so, however, without any self-awareness, out of charity, as it just seems like the right thing to do (as opposed to making sure everyone knows he invented the lapsometer). Although he tells us all about it, so maybe he?s not that?s humble at all. > > I can?t help but imagine that the ?dropouts? in 2014 exiled to the island (self-exiled?) would probably be the anti-vaccination/home schooler camp of today--which I find fascinating as this group today is often comprised of both Knotheads and Liberals?some highly educated, some not, some atheists, some fundamentalists?butall of them suspicious of science, and any form of organized or rote education or government involvement. Some of my colleagues refuse to treat these families, with various arguments (public health, lack of trust in the medical profession/system). Like Dr. More, I generally never turn these folks away, and try to understand their viewpoints, my own biases, etc., but the conflict of the rights of the individual vs. the rights of the state seem as central today as ever: how does everybody get along in Paradise Estates? Just fine, it seems, until that measles outbreak?. > > I still can?t decide if there?s some subtle homophobia going on (the pederasts of New Orleans and Memphis, Homo Hijinks)?or if Dr. More is simply questioning and doubting (perhaps subconsciously) his own sexuality and masculinity. After all, he has three women camped out and waiting at the HoJo, but has his mind set on Hester, near the end of the section (interesting character name choice in itself). It makes me wonder what Walker thought of Uncle Will, and would he have evolved, or supported Uncle Will?s right to marry, in 2014. > > Page 32 I laughed out loud at Patient#1. If you can make up a name for a syndrome (or constellation of symptoms), or measure something (in the blood, in the brain, in the spirit) why does it always make the patient feel better? Why is that? (Leslie Jameson, a contemporary essayist, has some thoughts on the matter). Is it simply the tyranny of uncertainty and ambiguity about your condition, or the hope that maybe there are others like you as well, that you are not alone in your suffering? Perhaps a little of both? > > Finally, the lapsometer: did anyone else besides me see the parallels between the e-meter of Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists? I think I missed that the first go-round, since I wasn?t aware of Scientology the first time I read this..but obviously Dianetics was already well established by the time the novel was published: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditing_(Scientology) > > All best, > Greg Plemmons > > p.s. I just want to say I?ve enjoyed hearing the viewpoints of everyone on this listserv over the many years (although I?ve been much more of a lurker for the most part). I?m absolutely delighted to be taking part in this. > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:41 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > > I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. > > In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? > > So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: > > The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? > > Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. > > On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? > > Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. > I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? > > --Rhonda > > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." > > Walker Percy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jul 1 01:25:31 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jul 1 01:26:52 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. Sent from my iPad > On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: > > A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): > > "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" > > > > Jim > > > >> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: >> I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >> >> >> >> In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >> >> >> >> So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: >> >> >> >> The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >> >> >> >> Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. >> >> >> >> On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? >> >> >> >> Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. >> >> I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? >> >> >> --Rhonda >> >> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." >> >> Walker Percy >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > -- > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > * * * > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Tue Jul 1 10:20:52 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jul 1 11:14:42 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 10:14:42 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Nice distinction, Karl. I wonder which the maid was more comfortable with? Likely the old way, as it wouldn't lead to "trouble." Sent from my iPad > On Jul 1, 2014, at 9:21 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." > > The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. > > Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > > > >> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: >> >> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? > > I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. > > Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kfwacw at centurylink.net Tue Jul 1 11:32:52 2014 From: kfwacw at centurylink.net (Ken Wilson) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 11:32:52 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu><399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <0C096F1C367D4FD09DA13CF94C3B0B45@KenPC> > The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with > her. Well explained, but "make" seems carefully chosen as well. The liberal housewife does not "ask" or "invite" her maid to sit beside her - the maid, after all, might find the invitation discomfiting - but makes her sit there, exercising her will over her maid just as the conservative woman does. -----Original Message----- From: Karl M. Terrell Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 10:20 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: > > while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back > seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on > the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Tue Jul 1 11:39:13 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 15:39:13 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: <0C096F1C367D4FD09DA13CF94C3B0B45@KenPC> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu><399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <0C096F1C367D4FD09DA13CF94C3B0B45@KenPC> Message-ID: <7006ff52476449b08a94b1291a09353b@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> I agree. It was carefully chosen. Both are caught up in the times; both are exercising their will over the maid, the liberal housewife actually more so. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ken Wilson Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 11:33 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front > with her. Well explained, but "make" seems carefully chosen as well. The liberal housewife does not "ask" or "invite" her maid to sit beside her - the maid, after all, might find the invitation discomfiting - but makes her sit there, exercising her will over her maid just as the conservative woman does. -----Original Message----- From: Karl M. Terrell Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 10:20 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: > > while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back > seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on > the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From charlescowherd at hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:23:25 2014 From: charlescowherd at hotmail.com (Charles Cowherd) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 08:23:25 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th Message-ID: All, So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the group's reading of the book. Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and theme. Cannot wait for the next section. ` Charles R. Cowherd -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. Sent from my iPad > On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: > > A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): > > "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" > > > > Jim > > > >> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: >> I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >> >> >> >> In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >> >> >> >> So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: >> >> >> >> The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >> >> >> >> Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. >> >> >> >> On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? >> >> >> >> Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. >> >> I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? >> >> >> --Rhonda >> >> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." >> >> Walker Percy >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > > -- > Jim & Nancy Forest > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: > www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial > Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > * * * > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 *************************************** From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Thu Jul 3 11:09:25 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 10:09:25 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What was interesting for me in the "contradictory Judaism" passage was Tom's follow-up: he too gets the same reading . . . And then the lapsometer gets tossed! Sent from my iPad > On Jul 3, 2014, at 8:23 AM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: > > All, > So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the > group's reading of the book. > Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page > 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest > Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. > Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, > which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and > theme. > Cannot wait for the next section. > ` Charles R. Cowherd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) > 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) > 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 > From: RHONDA MCDONNELL > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >> wrote: >> >> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back > seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the > front seat? > > I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the > difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the > housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. > > Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife > dotted paradise he describes. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 > From: RHONDA MCDONNELL > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: >> >> A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is > up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): >> >> "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present > ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is > like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test > the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and > collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things > over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" >> >> >> >> Jim >> >> >> >>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL > wrote: >>> I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she > makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own > selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine > his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. > The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if > we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be > geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s > getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that > is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >>> >>> >>> >>> In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy > explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the > battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than > he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to > test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and > collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >>> >>> >>> >>> So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our > previous discussions: >>> >>> >>> >>> The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching > and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully > flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine > who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom > admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for > the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching > longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in > this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the > sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, > bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, > he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not > be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not > the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, > he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom > remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when > Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received > Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics > but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he > promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his > present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the > question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God > doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, > music, science, and whiskey. >>> >>> >>> >>> On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis > the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t > belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I > imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on > the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in > this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The > liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the > direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest > of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The > liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it > better in its subtlety? >>> >>> >>> >>> Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or > conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still > with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his > character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and > conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. > If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it > might sort itself out. >>> >>> I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about > all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that > will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker > watching the news? >>> >>> >>> --Rhonda >>> >>> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite > of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest > idea of who he is or what he is doing." >>> >>> Walker Percy >>> >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> >> >> -- >> Jim & Nancy Forest >> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> >> Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: >> www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ >> On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ >> A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ >> In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial >> Services: http://forestflier.com/ >> >> * * * >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment-0001.html> > -------------- next part -------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was > unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the > maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative > housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to > redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy > sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back > seat." > > The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with > her. > > Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world > Percy knew. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA > MCDONNELL > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > > > >>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >> wrote: >> >> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back > seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the > front seat? > > I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the > difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the > housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. > > Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife > dotted paradise he describes. > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wppdirector at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 08:05:01 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 08:05:01 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> Dear Percy-L, Ralph C. Wood -- author of /The Comedy of Redemption: Christian Faith and Comic Vision in Four American Novelists /(Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy, John Updike and Peter De Vries) and a University Professor of Theology and Literature at Baylor University -- prepared the following annotations for LITR that may be useful to our current slow read of the book. It's entitled, "Annotations for Walker Percy's /Love in the Ruins/" Keyed to the Picador USA edition, 1999 First version by Thomas F. Gossett, 1973; second by Ralph C. Wood, revised 1996-2005 The well-structured document contains over 400 entries that comment on textual references that may not be clear to modern readers of the book. See https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Ralph_Wood/www/percy/AnnotLoveInRuins.pdf Best, Henry Mills * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy On 7/3/14, 11:09 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > What was interesting for me in the "contradictory Judaism" passage was Tom's follow-up: he too gets the same reading . . . And then the lapsometer gets tossed! > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jul 3, 2014, at 8:23 AM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: >> >> All, >> So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the >> group's reading of the book. >> Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page >> 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest >> Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. >> Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, >> which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and >> theme. >> Cannot wait for the next section. >> ` Charles R. Cowherd >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 >> >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >> "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) >> 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) >> 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 >> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> >>>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>> wrote: >>> >>> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >> seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the >> front seat? >> >> I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the >> difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the >> housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. >> >> Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife >> dotted paradise he describes. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 >> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: >>> >>> A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is >> up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): >>> "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present >> ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is >> like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test >> the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and >> collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things >> over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" >>> >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL >> wrote: >>>> I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she >> makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own >> selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine >> his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. >> The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if >> we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be >> geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s >> getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that >> is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >>>> >>>> >>>> In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy >> explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the >> battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than >> he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to >> test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and >> collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >>>> >>>> >>>> So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our >> previous discussions: >>>> >>>> >>>> The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching >> and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully >> flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine >> who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom >> admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for >> the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching >> longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in >> this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the >> sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, >> bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >>>> >>>> >>>> Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, >> he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not >> be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not >> the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, >> he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom >> remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when >> Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received >> Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics >> but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he >> promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his >> present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the >> question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God >> doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, >> music, science, and whiskey. >>>> >>>> >>>> On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis >> the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t >> belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I >> imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on >> the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in >> this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The >> liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the >> direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest >> of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The >> liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it >> better in its subtlety? >>>> >>>> >>>> Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or >> conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still >> with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his >> character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and >> conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. >> If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it >> might sort itself out. >>>> I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about >> all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that >> will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker >> watching the news? >>>> >>>> --Rhonda >>>> >>>> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite >> of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest >> idea of who he is or what he is doing." >>>> Walker Percy >>>> >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jim & Nancy Forest >>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >>> >>> Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: >>> www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >>> Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ >>> On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ >>> A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ >>> In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial >>> Services: http://forestflier.com/ >>> >>> * * * >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> > tachment-0001.html> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 >> From: "Karl M. Terrell" >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >> Message-ID: >> >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was >> unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the >> maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative >> housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to >> redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy >> sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back >> seat." >> >> The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with >> her. >> >> Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world >> Percy knew. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA >> MCDONNELL >> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >> >> >> >>>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>> wrote: >>> >>> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >> seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the >> front seat? >> >> I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the >> difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the >> housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. >> >> Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife >> dotted paradise he describes. >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 >> *************************************** >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 09:48:31 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 06:48:31 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> References: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1404481711.68881.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Wow, that was fabulous! I knew a lot of them, but there were a lot I didn't know. I kept wondering about the war in Ecuador. Kennedy has a lot to answer for we now know, not least of the things his disgusting abandonment of those he promised to back up who tried to liberate Cuba at the Bay of Pigs and now we have the longest dictatorship in history. And oy, that Che is a hero even to this day when he was a murderer of so many face to face and he killed with such relish so many innocent people. And perhaps that right winger was a no goodnik but even a stopped watch...he wanted the U.S. to invade Cuba and set it free.? I never understood the line from Jambalaya - taking pirogues down the bayou. Now I know. Are we to assume Stryker is a reference to Streicher, the Nazi? That is not in these notes. I learned a lot from the Catholic and historical references. When I read things like this I feel so insignificant that I missed so much. But the best is that I can still enjoy Percy's writing even not knowing so much of these references. Thanks for this, Dr. Mills. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Henry Mills To: Sent: Friday, July 4, 2014 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th Dear Percy-L, Ralph C. Wood -- author of The Comedy of Redemption: Christian Faith and Comic Vision in Four American Novelists (Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy, John Updike and Peter De Vries) and a University Professor of Theology and Literature at Baylor University --? prepared the following annotations for LITR that may be useful to our current slow read of the book.? It's entitled, ??? "Annotations for Walker Percy?s Love in the Ruins" ??? Keyed to the Picador USA edition, 1999 ??? First version by Thomas F. Gossett, 1973; second by Ralph C. Wood, revised 1996-2005 The well-structured document contains over 400 entries that comment on textual references that may not be clear to modern readers of the book. See https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Ralph_Wood/www/percy/AnnotLoveInRuins.pdf Best, Henry Mills * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy On 7/3/14, 11:09 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: What was interesting for me in the "contradictory Judaism" passage was Tom's follow-up: he too gets the same reading . . . And then the lapsometer gets tossed! Sent from my iPad >On Jul 3, 2014, at 8:23 AM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: All, So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the group's reading of the book. Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and theme. Cannot wait for the next section. ` Charles R. Cowherd -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>>wrote: while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >>seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. Sent from my iPad >>On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is >>up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): >>"The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present >>ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" >>Jim >>>On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL >> wrote: >>I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she >>makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >>In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy >>explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >>So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our >>previous discussions: >>The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching >>and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >>Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, >>he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. >>On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis >>the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? >>Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or >>conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. >>I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about >>all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? >>--Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite >>of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." >>Walker Percy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>-- Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >>On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>>wrote: while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >>seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 *************************************** * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 09:56:46 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 06:56:46 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> References: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Also from page 161 Robert the Bruce was reputed to have learned courage from watching a spider spin its web. I keep thinking there is more to that dung beetle from The Moviegoer that interests Percy than meets the eye. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Henry Mills To: Sent: Friday, July 4, 2014 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th Dear Percy-L, Ralph C. Wood -- author of The Comedy of Redemption: Christian Faith and Comic Vision in Four American Novelists (Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy, John Updike and Peter De Vries) and a University Professor of Theology and Literature at Baylor University --? prepared the following annotations for LITR that may be useful to our current slow read of the book.? It's entitled, ??? "Annotations for Walker Percy?s Love in the Ruins" ??? Keyed to the Picador USA edition, 1999 ??? First version by Thomas F. Gossett, 1973; second by Ralph C. Wood, revised 1996-2005 The well-structured document contains over 400 entries that comment on textual references that may not be clear to modern readers of the book. See https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Ralph_Wood/www/percy/AnnotLoveInRuins.pdf Best, Henry Mills * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy On 7/3/14, 11:09 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: What was interesting for me in the "contradictory Judaism" passage was Tom's follow-up: he too gets the same reading . . . And then the lapsometer gets tossed! Sent from my iPad >On Jul 3, 2014, at 8:23 AM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: All, So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the group's reading of the book. Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and theme. Cannot wait for the next section. ` Charles R. Cowherd -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>>wrote: while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >>seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. Sent from my iPad >>On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is >>up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): >>"The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present >>ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" >>Jim >>>On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL >> wrote: >>I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she >>makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >>In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy >>explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >>So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our >>previous discussions: >>The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching >>and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >>Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, >>he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. >>On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis >>the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? >>Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or >>conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. >>I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about >>all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? >>--Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite >>of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." >>Walker Percy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>-- Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >>On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>>wrote: while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >>seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 *************************************** * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 11:06:31 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 11:06:31 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: By the way, Happy 4th of July, Tom More (and all)! Watch out for those 'fireworks'. . . or are those sniper shots from the swamp!? : ) HM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 4 11:23:38 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2014 08:23:38 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Creative fireworks In-Reply-To: <1404455494.75324.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8242E4E2-5891-46EA-949C-A4FD9E6EDD0B@yahoo.com> <1404455494.75324.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1404487418.76590.YahooMailNeo@web126703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Percy always has light glinting off of golf clubs, brows, sparking things - all through the book. And? Speaking of Fireworks, check these Chinese fireworks out. ? >>>>? >>>>? >>>>??HAPPY 4TH OF JULY. >>>>? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>?Click here: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>fireworks !!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Janet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Fri Jul 4 12:42:02 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 12:42:02 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53B6D95A.1080006@gmail.com> But like Holden, Binx has had specific, terrible things happen to him, a fact that sometimes gets lost amid the abstractions. His brother dies on the first page. His father essentially commits suicide by enlistment. And Binx's Korean War wound is a turning point in his life: regaining consciousness under a chindolea bush, he sees, six inches from his nose, a dung beetle scratching in the leaves. "As I watched, there awoke in me an immense curiosity. I was onto something. I vowed that if I ever got out of this fix, I would pursue the search." This crucial scene reinforces Percy's wider theme of coming to a sense of self through ordeal. ("Isn't it true that the only happy men are wounded men?" Kate asks.) But it is also an *overt allusion to "War and Peace"! It's the passage where Prince Andrei, gravely wounded at Austerlitz, looks up and sees the clouds and the eternal sky, really sees them, for the first time in his life. (Prince Andrei gets clouds, Binx a dung beetle.) Binx has read "W&P": he calls it "the novel of novels." And why not? Don't forget that the Bollings are "a warrior gens." And war is one of several incrementally developed (non-Kierkegaardian!) themes that Percy uses in the novel in lieu of a more conventional "plot."* *Lauren Stacy Berdy* On 7/4/2014 9:56 AM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > Also from page 161 Robert the Bruce was reputed to have learned > courage from watching a spider spin its web. > I keep thinking there is more to that_dung beetle from The Moviegoer > th_at interests Percy than meets the eye. > Janet Cantor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Henry Mills > *To:* > *Sent:* Friday, July 4, 2014 8:05 AM > *Subject:* Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th > > Dear Percy-L, > > Ralph C. Wood -- author of > /The Comedy of Redemption: Christian Faith and Comic Vision in Four > American Novelists /(Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy, John Updike and > Peter De Vries) and a University Professor of Theology and Literature > at Baylor University -- prepared the following annotations for LITR > that may be useful to our current slow read of the book. It's entitled, > > "Annotations for Walker Percy's /Love in the Ruins/" > Keyed to the Picador USA edition, 1999 > First version by Thomas F. Gossett, 1973; second by Ralph C. Wood, > revised 1996-2005 > > The well-structured document contains over 400 entries that comment on > textual references that may not be clear to modern readers of the book. > > See https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Ralph_Wood/www/percy/AnnotLoveInRuins.pdf > > Best, > Henry Mills > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > On 7/3/14, 11:09 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: >> What was interesting for me in the "contradictory Judaism" passage was Tom's follow-up: he too gets the same reading . . . And then the lapsometer gets tossed! >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Jul 3, 2014, at 8:23 AM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the >>> group's reading of the book. >>> Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page >>> 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest >>> Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. >>> Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, >>> which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and >>> theme. >>> Cannot wait for the next section. >>> ` Charles R. Cowherd >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM >>> To:percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 >>> >>> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >>> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>> "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) >>> 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) >>> 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 >>> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> >>> >>>>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >>> seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the >>> front seat? >>> >>> I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the >>> difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the >>> housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. >>> >>> Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife >>> dotted paradise he describes. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 >>> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: >>>> >>>> A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is >>> up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): >>>> "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present >>> ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is >>> like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test >>> the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and >>> collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things >>> over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL >>> wrote: >>>>> I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she >>> makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own >>> selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine >>> his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. >>> The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if >>> we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be >>> geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s >>> getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that >>> is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. >>>>> In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy >>> explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the >>> battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than >>> he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to >>> test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and >>> collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? >>>>> So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our >>> previous discussions: >>>>> The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching >>> and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully >>> flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine >>> who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom >>> admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for >>> the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching >>> longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in >>> this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the >>> sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, >>> bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? >>>>> Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, >>> he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not >>> be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not >>> the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, >>> he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom >>> remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when >>> Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received >>> Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics >>> but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he >>> promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his >>> present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the >>> question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God >>> doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, >>> music, science, and whiskey. >>>>> On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis >>> the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t >>> belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I >>> imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on >>> the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in >>> this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The >>> liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the >>> direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest >>> of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The >>> liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it >>> better in its subtlety? >>>>> Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or >>> conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still >>> with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his >>> character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and >>> conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. >>> If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it >>> might sort itself out. >>>>> I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about >>> all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that >>> will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker >>> watching the news? >>>>> --Rhonda >>>>> >>>>> "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite >>> of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest >>> idea of who he is or what he is doing." >>>>> Walker Percy >>>>> >>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>> >>>>> * Manage Your Membership: >>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>> >>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> >>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> -- >>>> Jim & Nancy Forest >>>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >>>> >>>> Jim's books:www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: >>>> www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: >>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >>>> Photo collections:www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ >>>> On Pilgrimage blog:http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ >>>> A Tale of Two Kidneys blog:http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ >>>> In Communion site:www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial >>>> Services:http://forestflier.com/ >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >> tachment-0001.html> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 >>> From: "Karl M. Terrell" >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was >>> unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the >>> maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative >>> housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to >>> redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy >>> sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back >>> seat." >>> >>> The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with >>> her. >>> >>> Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world >>> Percy knew. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA >>> MCDONNELL >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM >>> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" >>> >>> >>> >>>>> On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back >>> seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the >>> front seat? >>> >>> I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the >>> difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the >>> housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. >>> >>> Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife >>> dotted paradise he describes. >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Percy-L mailing list >>> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 >>> *************************************** >>> >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Sun Jul 6 23:36:18 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 03:36:18 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Message-ID: Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these opening comments on chapter 2. Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story is going. In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about LITR: He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). Thoughts? Karl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Mon Jul 7 12:31:29 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 12:31:29 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53BACB61.3050908@gmail.com> Hello, He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, t*han I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious."* Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. The *comedy* comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own lives. here goes......... as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF THE STAGE. DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this play his "novel" so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. Dr. More does just that at the end. (The /other/ (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our story. Our human story. I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with > these opening comments on chapter 2. > > _Disclaimers_: One, I am not an academic -- just someone who has for > many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the > human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's > written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently > re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years > since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past > chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading > it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might > generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied > Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of > LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times > while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle > on the main plot-line -- turning back a few pages every so often, > looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed -- and just > generally wondering where the story is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not > what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me > along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid > characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, > set in an imagined future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, > for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts > with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. > 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] -- Farrar, Straus, 1991 > printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the > story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At > one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but > by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created > by this uncertainty -- Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a > Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter > 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and > everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 -- where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter -- is a brilliant exposition of the > subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning > of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, > and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 -- "Walker Percy Talks > about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard > is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years > ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more > knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's > role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on > the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic > (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true > self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy > said the following in the interview about LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly > disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he > states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in > progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise > of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in > any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what > is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? > (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as > agnostic -- I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his > emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather > than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the > Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental > mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the > communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Mon Jul 7 15:21:19 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" In-Reply-To: <53BACB61.3050908@gmail.com> References: <53BACB61.3050908@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed in his own life, isn't it? After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content with that answer. I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). http://nyti.ms/1mctVil Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Stacy Berdy Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM To: Percy-L@ Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Hello, He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own lives. here goes......... as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF THE STAGE. DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this play his "novel" so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. Dr. More does just that at the end. (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our story. Our human story. I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these opening comments on chapter 2. Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story is going. In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about LITR: He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). Thoughts? Karl * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Mon Jul 7 22:30:54 2014 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 02:30:54 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: <53B6D95A.1080006@gmail.com> References: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <53B6D95A.1080006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0442A9C@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Karl, I second your impressions--what stuck out for me on my reading of this last section is just how unreliable the narrator is quickly becoming. I'm not a Percy scholar, either, but I can't help but wonder if Percy was influenced by that other great physician-writer Chekhov in this section, as the dark humor and descent into disorganization seems to mirror Chekhov's famous short story "Ward No. 6". I won't go into details, but it involves a physician who directs an asylum ward who eventually becomes...a patient. The gradual transition is subtle, never overt, and it creates a lot of tension. And by using first-person narration, we're now down in the foxhole, inside Tom's mind. It's just not clear how much is virtual and how much is real. Sometimes that can be hard to sustain a reader's interest, but madness itself never seems arbitrary, at least to the mentally ill...and the tension created between what is real and imagined kept me going. It's interesting that Tom's institutionalization follows the death of his daughter, and his marriage. We don't find out how Samantha dies until the second section, and then in one fell swoop: "the neuroblastoma had pushed one eye out and around the nosebridge so that Samantha looked like a two-eyed Picasso profile." The description seems particularly grotesque (and twentieth-century-modern), designed to shock us (as Samantha's cancer did to Tom and Doris), but Tom also seems still quite removed from his loss (he's certainly acerbic about the death of his marriage). It makes me wonder, in a way, if Tom has truly grieved, or walled it off like an abscess, and if the whole event is at least the tacitly unspoken source for his suicide attempt and institutionalization. The description of his daughter's illness (the only one we have thus far) makes one of the most quoted lines seem even more poignant, at least when I re-read it this time: "We love those who know the worst of us and don't turn their faces away." I found Leroy and Ellen's roll-up-your-sleeves pragmatism and Protestant work ethic quite humorous, in comparison to Tom's lapsed and contemplative Catholicism ("Leroy believes that doctors do wonders...Doctors see patients. Then see patients."). Yet, doctors failed to save Samantha. I often wonder if Percy felt a twinge of Catholic guilt for never practicing, or becoming ill with tuberculosis, after four years of medical school, or what he thought of Chekhov, who spent most of his time eradicating cholera, instead of writing. If anyone on the listserv has a reference, let me know. I'm nowhere even an amateur theologian, but the choice to make Ellen a staunch Presbyterian (faith through actions, rather than words) seemed quite appropriate, as a foil. Gregory Plemmons ________________________________________ From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of Lauren Stacy Berdy [lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 04, 2014 11:42 AM To: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com; Percy-L@ Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th But like Holden, Binx has had specific, terrible things happen to him, a fact that sometimes gets lost amid the abstractions. His brother dies on the first page. His father essentially commits suicide by enlistment. And Binx?s Korean War wound is a turning point in his life: regaining consciousness under a chindolea bush, he sees, six inches from his nose, a dung beetle scratching in the leaves. ?As I watched, there awoke in me an immense curiosity. I was onto something. I vowed that if I ever got out of this fix, I would pursue the search.? This crucial scene reinforces Percy?s wider theme of coming to a sense of self through ordeal. (?Isn?t it true that the only happy men are wounded men?? Kate asks.) But it is also an overt allusion to ?War and Peace?! It?s the passage where Prince Andrei, gravely wounded at Austerlitz, looks up and sees the clouds and the eternal sky, really sees them, for the first time in his life. (Prince Andrei gets clouds, Binx a dung beetle.) Binx has read ?W&P?: he calls it ?the novel of novels.? And why not? Don?t forget that the Bollings are ?a warrior gens.? And war is one of several incrementally developed (non-Kierkegaardian!) themes that Percy uses in the novel in lieu of a more conventional ?plot.? Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/4/2014 9:56 AM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: Also from page 161 Robert the Bruce was reputed to have learned courage from watching a spider spin its web. I keep thinking there is more to that dung beetle from The Moviegoer that interests Percy than meets the eye. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Henry Mills To: Sent: Friday, July 4, 2014 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th Dear Percy-L, Ralph C. Wood -- author of The Comedy of Redemption: Christian Faith and Comic Vision in Four American Novelists (Flannery O'Connor, Walker Percy, John Updike and Peter De Vries) and a University Professor of Theology and Literature at Baylor University -- prepared the following annotations for LITR that may be useful to our current slow read of the book. It's entitled, "Annotations for Walker Percy?s Love in the Ruins" Keyed to the Picador USA edition, 1999 First version by Thomas F. Gossett, 1973; second by Ralph C. Wood, revised 1996-2005 The well-structured document contains over 400 entries that comment on textual references that may not be clear to modern readers of the book. See https://bearspace.baylor.edu/Ralph_Wood/www/percy/AnnotLoveInRuins.pdf Best, Henry Mills * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy On 7/3/14, 11:09 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: What was interesting for me in the "contradictory Judaism" passage was Tom's follow-up: he too gets the same reading . . . And then the lapsometer gets tossed! Sent from my iPad On Jul 3, 2014, at 8:23 AM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: All, So excited to be involved in this "Slow Read" and to benefit from the group's reading of the book. Marked passages for me include the "contradictory Judaism" diagnosis on page 54 along with the masterful take on American exceptionalism/ Manifest Destiny/ 'City on a Hill' narrative on page 57. Those more than made up for the limitations that I saw in the 1st chapter, which included Percy's usage of the interrogative to advance both plot and theme. Cannot wait for the next section. ` Charles R. Cowherd -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 9:21 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 3. Re: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:25:31 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 00:26:52 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I read that essay on Sunday, too. It's a fitting companion piece to LITR. Sent from my iPad On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:30 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" Jim On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2014 14:20:52 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" "Have" is more passive than "make." A more forceful action (and verb) was unnecessary. It was the "old style," backed by unspoken custom. If the maid were to violate the rule and drop into the front seat, the conservative housewife would have frowned uncomfortably. Some would have been quick to redirect the maid to the back seat, and would have done so with an icy sweetness -- "Annie Mae, no; you'll be much more comfortable in the back seat." The liberal housewife, therefore, must "make" the maid sit up front with her. Such as it was, it in the 'go fetch the maid' days of the Jim Crow world Percy knew. -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 1:26 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" On Jun 30, 2014, at 7:31 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat? I have the same passage highlighted in my book. I wonder, what is the difference between the verbs "have" and "make"? In either case, none of the housewives "let" the maids ride where the will. Interesting also that Tom's women have jobs in the midst of this housewife dotted paradise he describes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 2 *************************************** * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jul 8 00:00:18 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 23:00:18 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read- July 4th In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0442A9C@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: <53B6986D.1060000@gmail.com> <1404482206.12928.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53B6D95A.1080006@gmail.com> <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0442A9C@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: Greg, The essay "The Modern Malaise" (in Signposts in a Strange Land) is actually the text of an address Percy gave at a Chekhov festival. I didn't know that off the top of my head, by the way. Instead, I did a quick search of his non-fiction in my kindle editions. If you can get access to that, it will answer your question (sort of anyway). I don't know that Percy felt guilt over not practicing medicine. I think he saw himself as being onto a cure for what troubles modern humanity. He had his chances to be involved as a consultant in psychiatric clinical studies, but he only took that opportunity once. It's mentioned briefly in the biographies. On the other hand, his TB wouldn't have allowed him to practice medicine, most likely. He did a lot of resting and relapsed a couple of times. So maybe it sort of fell into the "road not taken" category. Half of his protagonists are doctors (or on the way to it) but the other half are lawyers. I'm not sure if that's significant or not. Any time an author chooses first person narration, some amount of unreliability enters the equation. I recently was involved in a debate regarding how reliable Jack Burden of All the King's Men is. Tom, I think, is more unreliable than Jack, by a good measure. I was struck again by Tom's vision of the "maculate Christ." I had remembered that sequence of events as having actually happened--Leroy and Victor helping him walk after finding him drunk in a ditch. Instead it's a flight of fancy for Tom. Wishful thinking on his part that stands in sharp contrast to the brilliantly described racial dynamics that are actually occurring (thanks for pointing that out, Karl). Tom's musing is also revelatory regarding his messiah complex. He's out to heal the world, but he may be as sick as everyone else--maybe even sicker. Rhonda From charlescowherd at hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 15:52:24 2014 From: charlescowherd at hotmail.com (Charles Cowherd) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Slomo Etc Message-ID: All, I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the others) become kind of grating. But we will see. I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. All my best, Charles -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" , "Percy-L@" <"Literary andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed in his own life, isn't it? After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content with that answer. I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). http://nyti.ms/1mctVil Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Stacy Berdy Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM To: Percy-L@ Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Hello, He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own lives. here goes......... as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF THE STAGE. DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this play his "novel" so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. Dr. More does just that at the end. (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our story. Our human story. I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these opening comments on chapter 2. Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story is going. In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about LITR: He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). Thoughts? Karl * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 *************************************** From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Thu Jul 10 16:36:54 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 20:36:54 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: > > All, > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, > Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > , "Percy-L@" <"Literary > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July First" > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed > in his own life, isn't it? > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content > with that answer. > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > Karl > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren > Stacy Berdy > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > To: Percy-L@ > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" > > Hello, > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > lives. > here goes......... > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF > THE STAGE. > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this > play his "novel" > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > Dr. More does just that at the end. > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > story. Our human story. > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > opening comments on chapter 2. > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story > is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about > LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the > late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 10 17:26:19 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 14:26:19 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. Janet Cantor Glad you liked the Slomo video.? The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: > > All, >? I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. >? Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. >? I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, >? ? Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >? ? percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >? ? http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >? ? percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at >? ? percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >? 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >? ? ? First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >? ? , "Percy-L@" <"Literary >? ? andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- >? ? "July First" > Message-ID: >? ? > >? ? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation.? It's also what Percy followed > in his own life, isn't it? > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he > liked because it was "not a place."? I've read also, people in Covington > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions > were asked that he didn't really want to explain.? Eventually, he took to > responding - "I don't do anything."? Most, he reported, were quite content > with that answer. > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and > asked him how he had achieved this.? The reply: "Do what you want." > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," > he said, in what he called "the rational world."? At the end of each day, > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself > financially.? Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of > a neurological explanation for this).? He spends his days flying ... which, > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will > be that he is crazy.? He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > Karl > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren > Stacy Berdy > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > To: Percy-L@ > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" > > Hello, > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious.? Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > lives. > here goes......... > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and > a long pull of? the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF > THE STAGE. > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play? to our attention thru Dr. > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this > play his "novel" > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > Dr. More does just that at the end. > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell? our > story. Our human story. > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone.? I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > opening comments on chapter 2. > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet.? I am reading this 'as we > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, > but to think of it as a trail.? I thought about that a few times while > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story > is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what > he was about.? Agree?? Disagree?? In any event, what carries me along is the > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator?? I noted, for > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing).? In other > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is > (so to speak) actually happening?? At one or two points I felt a tinge of > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot > at by a sniper?? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works?? See, > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily.? "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc.? All you got to do is move in with your mama.? She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a > yarn?? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion).? My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this > connection.? My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy > by Hegel.? The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > connection with K.? Except, Percy said the following in the interview about > LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious.? Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > thoughts one might have.? I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism.? In the > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the > late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 19:04:56 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 19:04:56 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Dr. Percy Knew that In-Reply-To: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com> through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable but laughable! ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) and Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of everything including his luck in this his only world. Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? Then they can help hold each other up? His story like our own is still unfolding? Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is > driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. > Janet Cantor > > > Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may > not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of > escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of > meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has > value, I think. > > Karl > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" > > wrote: > > > > All, > > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously > mentioned > > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal > Son: > > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The > Second > > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > > All my best, > > Charles > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > ] On Behalf Of > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > >, > "Percy-L@" <"Literary > > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > > "July First" > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy > followed > > in his own life, isn't it? > > > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine > as a > > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and > grabbed a > > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... > For him, > > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I > understand he > > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a > writer," no > > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many > questions > > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to > > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite > content > > with that answer. > > > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who > did the > > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as > Slomo - a > > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from > N.C., who > > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and > satisfied, and > > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live > "miserably," > > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each > day, > > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much > he had > > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced > himself > > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and > today, Slomo > > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours > roller-blading on > > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one > leg in > > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides > something of > > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... > which, > > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first > thought will > > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo > speak of > > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > > > Karl > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > ] On Behalf Of Lauren > > Stacy Berdy > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > > To: Percy-L@ > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July > > First" > > > > Hello, > > > > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly > disconnected > > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this > novel, I > > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > > lives. > > here goes......... > > > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of > Kierkegaard and > > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our > own best > > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and > decisions.We lack a > > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO > GET OFF > > THE STAGE. > > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention > thru Dr. > > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write > of this > > play his "novel" > > > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and > "grab a > > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > > Dr. More does just that at the end. > > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > > story. Our human story. > > > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony > up a bit > > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and > time.("on this > > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > > opening comments on chapter 2. > > > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for > many years > > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my > reading > > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, > though). > > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... > and, on > > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this > 'as we > > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' > of LITR, > > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on > the main > > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for > plot-line > > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where > the story > > is going. > > > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; > not what > > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me > along is the > > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined > future). > > > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I > noted, for > > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 > ["What > > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by > More, is > > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a > tinge of > > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found > myself > > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really > being shot > > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the > works? See, > > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now > everything's got to > > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... > "Not you, > > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the > subtleties > > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the > spinning of a > > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, > and came > > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), > and so I > > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable > in this > > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, > distinct from > > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to > philosophy > > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the > interview about > > LITR: > > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly > disconnected > > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this > novel, I > > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is > Percy > > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies > of the > > late 60s, early 70s). > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > > tachment.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > *************************************** > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From padraig at well.com Thu Jul 10 21:07:00 2014 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 18:07:00 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Dr. Percy Knew that In-Reply-To: <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com> References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53BF38B4.5090205@well.com> In response to Janet Cantor's query, "Slomo" captures the scientific and active spirit of LITR, as well as "Second Coming," as others have mentioned. However, Slomo's journey seems more individualistic where as Will and More had others journeying with them and sought to include these in their "experiments" (in the long run, excluding Will's cave adventure). I wonder what has become of Slomo's son and what that relationship is like... However, I am not sure that Slomo contains all of Percy's purpose. While spiritual, and while it attack malaise, Slomo's solution does not address a general malaise and a general 4 O'Clock feeling that Percy attends to in his work. Slomo HAS woken up on his own terms, but does it have a more universal methodology. So far Dr More knows he can only diagnose the problem (as of C 2), and he knows he lacks the best treatment for what ails us all, but Slomo seems aware of what treatment works for him. With all due respect, has the filmmaker marginalized and simplified Slomo to such an extent that it becomes difficult to compare him to More? I appreciate Lauren Stacy Berdy's observation that Slomo may need a female Will Barrett (or an Allison) to crash into him to set up a larger picture. Thanks all for such thoughtful comments. Patrick Lynch > Lauren Stacy Berdy > July 10, 2014 at 4:04 PM > > > through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable > but laughable! > ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) > > and > > Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. > Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he > is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? > ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is > very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of > everything including his luck in this his only world. > Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? > Then they can help hold each other up? > His story like our own is still unfolding? > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > janetcantor37--- via Percy-L > July 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM > Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is > driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. > Janet Cantor > > > Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may > not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of > escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of > meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has > value, I think. > > Karl > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" > > wrote: > > > > All, > > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously > mentioned > > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal > Son: > > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The > Second > > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > > All my best, > > Charles > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > ] On Behalf Of > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > >, > "Percy-L@" <"Literary > > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > > "July First" > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy > followed > > in his own life, isn't it? > > > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine > as a > > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and > grabbed a > > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... > For him, > > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I > understand he > > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a > writer," no > > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many > questions > > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he > took to > > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite > content > > with that answer. > > > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who > did the > > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as > Slomo - a > > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from > N.C., who > > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and > satisfied, and > > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live > "miserably," > > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each > day, > > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much > he had > > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced > himself > > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and > today, Slomo > > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours > roller-blading on > > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one > leg in > > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides > something of > > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... > which, > > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first > thought will > > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo > speak of > > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > > > Karl > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org > ] On Behalf Of Lauren > > Stacy Berdy > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > > To: Percy-L@ > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July > > First" > > > > Hello, > > > > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly > disconnected > > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this > novel, I > > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > > lives. > > here goes......... > > > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of > Kierkegaard and > > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our > own best > > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and > decisions.We lack a > > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO > GET OFF > > THE STAGE. > > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention > thru Dr. > > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write > of this > > play his "novel" > > > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and > "grab a > > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > > Dr. More does just that at the end. > > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > > story. Our human story. > > > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony > up a bit > > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and > time.("on this > > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > > opening comments on chapter 2. > > > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for > many years > > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my > reading > > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, > though). > > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... > and, on > > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this > 'as we > > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' > of LITR, > > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on > the main > > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for > plot-line > > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where > the story > > is going. > > > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; > not what > > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me > along is the > > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined > future). > > > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I > noted, for > > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 > ["What > > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by > More, is > > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a > tinge of > > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found > myself > > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really > being shot > > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the > works? See, > > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now > everything's got to > > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... > "Not you, > > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the > subtleties > > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the > spinning of a > > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, > and came > > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), > and so I > > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable > in this > > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, > distinct from > > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to > philosophy > > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the > interview about > > LITR: > > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly > disconnected > > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this > novel, I > > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is > Percy > > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies > of the > > late 60s, early 70s). > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > > tachment.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > *************************************** > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > Karl M. Terrell > July 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM > Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not > be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping > what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- > whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. > > Karl > > Sent from my iPhone > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Charles Cowherd > July 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM > All, > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, > Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > , "Percy-L@" <"Literary > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July First" > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed > in his own life, isn't it? > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For > him, > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I > understand he > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a > writer," no > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many > questions > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content > with that answer. > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from > N.C., who > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, > Slomo > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one > leg in > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides > something of > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first > thought will > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo > speak of > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > Karl > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Lauren > Stacy Berdy > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > To: Percy-L@ > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" > > Hello, > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this > novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > lives. > here goes......... > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of > Kierkegaard and > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We > lack a > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF > THE STAGE. > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention > thru Dr. > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of > this > play his "novel" > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and > "grab a > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > Dr. More does just that at the end. > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > story. Our human story. > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up > a bit > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and > time.("on this > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > opening comments on chapter 2. > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many > years > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my > reading > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of > LITR, > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the > main > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the > story > is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not > what > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined > future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by > More, is > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found > myself > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's > got to > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), > and so I > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, > distinct from > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to > philosophy > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about > LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this > novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies > of the > late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Thu Jul 10 22:07:26 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 02:07:26 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Dr. Percy Knew that In-Reply-To: <53BF38B4.5090205@well.com> References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com>,<53BF38B4.5090205@well.com> Message-ID: Interesting comments and questions. Thanks to all (or, I should say, 'thanks y'all,' since this is a list devoted to a Southern writer, though soon as I say that, I question ... did Percy use 'y'all' much in his dialogues?) I don't think Slomo has any ambitions for methodology. He's just hit on what seems to make sense for him. Maybe he does have a bad relationship with his son, both pre-Slomo and present. Maybe he does need a female Will Barrett to crash into him and set him up for a bigger picture. It would be interesting to know more about him than could be presented in a 15 minute film. Personally, for what it's worth, I would be less interested in him had he always been 'Slomo.' If he hadn't preceded this phase of his journey on the planet with a productive career inside the rational world, then his adoption of the Slomo-life wouldn't be worth remarking about. But he did, and has done so in a thoughtful way, it seems, and that's a refreshingly radical life story ... very much in the vein of WP's stories, I thought. Which is why I decided to share it with y'all. Karl Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:27 PM, "Patrick Lynch" > wrote: In response to Janet Cantor's query, "Slomo" captures the scientific and active spirit of LITR, as well as "Second Coming," as others have mentioned. However, Slomo's journey seems more individualistic where as Will and More had others journeying with them and sought to include these in their "experiments" (in the long run, excluding Will's cave adventure). I wonder what has become of Slomo's son and what that relationship is like... However, I am not sure that Slomo contains all of Percy's purpose. While spiritual, and while it attack malaise, Slomo's solution does not address a general malaise and a general 4 O'Clock feeling that Percy attends to in his work. Slomo HAS woken up on his own terms, but does it have a more universal methodology. So far Dr More knows he can only diagnose the problem (as of C 2), and he knows he lacks the best treatment for what ails us all, but Slomo seems aware of what treatment works for him. With all due respect, has the filmmaker marginalized and simplified Slomo to such an extent that it becomes difficult to compare him to More? I appreciate Lauren Stacy Berdy's observation that Slomo may need a female Will Barrett (or an Allison) to crash into him to set up a larger picture. Thanks all for such thoughtful comments. Patrick Lynch Lauren Stacy Berdy July 10, 2014 at 4:04 PM through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable but laughable! ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) and Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of everything including his luck in this his only world. Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? Then they can help hold each other up? His story like our own is still unfolding? Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy janetcantor37--- via Percy-L July 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. Janet Cantor Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" > wrote: > > All, > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, > Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >, "Percy-L@" <"Literary > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July First" > Message-ID: > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed > in his own life, isn't it? > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content > with that answer. > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > Karl > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren > Stacy Berdy > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > To: Percy-L@ > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" > > Hello, > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > lives. > here goes......... > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF > THE STAGE. > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this > play his "novel" > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > Dr. More does just that at the end. > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > story. Our human story. > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > opening comments on chapter 2. > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story > is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about > LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the > late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Karl M. Terrell July 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Charles Cowherd July 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM All, I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the others) become kind of grating. But we will see. I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. All my best, Charles -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" , "Percy-L@" <"Literary andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed in his own life, isn't it? After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content with that answer. I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). http://nyti.ms/1mctVil Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Stacy Berdy Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM To: Percy-L@ Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Hello, He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own lives. here goes......... as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF THE STAGE. DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this play his "novel" so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. Dr. More does just that at the end. (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our story. Our human story. I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these opening comments on chapter 2. Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story is going. In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about LITR: He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). Thoughts? Karl * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 *************************************** * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: compose-unknown-contact.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 770 bytes Desc: compose-unknown-contact.jpg URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Thu Jul 10 22:22:51 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 02:22:51 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Dr. Percy Knew that In-Reply-To: References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com>, <53BF38B4.5090205@well.com>, Message-ID: <2CF74F62-6CA3-446E-8030-C9B0C74760F0@stokeswagner.com> I need to rephrase a sentence in the last post: I said, "he did [previously live a productive life in the rational world]," and then said, "has done so in a thoughtful way." I meant to convey that his decision to become Slomo was done in a thoughtful way. Sorry (limited to iPhone at the moment). Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2014, at 7:08 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: I should have said: He beca Interesting comments and questions. Thanks to all (or, I should say, 'thanks y'all,' since this is a list devoted to a Southern writer, though soon as I say that, I question ... did Percy use 'y'all' much in his dialogues?) I don't think Slomo has any ambitions for methodology. He's just hit on what seems to make sense for him. Maybe he does have a bad relationship with his son, both pre-Slomo and present. Maybe he does need a female Will Barrett to crash into him and set him up for a bigger picture. It would be interesting to know more about him than could be presented in a 15 minute film. Personally, for what it's worth, I would be less interested in him had he always been 'Slomo.' If he hadn't preceded this phase of his journey on the planet with a productive career inside the rational world, then his adoption of the Slomo-life wouldn't be worth remarking about. But he did, and has done so in a thoughtful way, it seems, and that's a refreshingly radical life story ... very much in the vein of WP's stories, I thought. Which is why I decided to share it with y'all. Karl Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:27 PM, "Patrick Lynch" > wrote: In response to Janet Cantor's query, "Slomo" captures the scientific and active spirit of LITR, as well as "Second Coming," as others have mentioned. However, Slomo's journey seems more individualistic where as Will and More had others journeying with them and sought to include these in their "experiments" (in the long run, excluding Will's cave adventure). I wonder what has become of Slomo's son and what that relationship is like... However, I am not sure that Slomo contains all of Percy's purpose. While spiritual, and while it attack malaise, Slomo's solution does not address a general malaise and a general 4 O'Clock feeling that Percy attends to in his work. Slomo HAS woken up on his own terms, but does it have a more universal methodology. So far Dr More knows he can only diagnose the problem (as of C 2), and he knows he lacks the best treatment for what ails us all, but Slomo seems aware of what treatment works for him. With all due respect, has the filmmaker marginalized and simplified Slomo to such an extent that it becomes difficult to compare him to More? I appreciate Lauren Stacy Berdy's observation that Slomo may need a female Will Barrett (or an Allison) to crash into him to set up a larger picture. Thanks all for such thoughtful comments. Patrick Lynch Lauren Stacy Berdy July 10, 2014 at 4:04 PM through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable but laughable! ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) and Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of everything including his luck in this his only world. Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? Then they can help hold each other up? His story like our own is still unfolding? Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy janetcantor37--- via Percy-L July 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. Janet Cantor Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" > wrote: > > All, > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, > Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >, "Percy-L@" <"Literary > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July First" > Message-ID: > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed > in his own life, isn't it? > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content > with that answer. > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > Karl > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren > Stacy Berdy > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > To: Percy-L@ > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" > > Hello, > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > lives. > here goes......... > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF > THE STAGE. > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this > play his "novel" > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > Dr. More does just that at the end. > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > story. Our human story. > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > opening comments on chapter 2. > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story > is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about > LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the > late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Karl M. Terrell July 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Charles Cowherd July 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM All, I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the others) become kind of grating. But we will see. I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. All my best, Charles -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" , "Percy-L@" <"Literary andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed in his own life, isn't it? After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content with that answer. I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). http://nyti.ms/1mctVil Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Stacy Berdy Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM To: Percy-L@ Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Hello, He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own lives. here goes......... as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF THE STAGE. DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this play his "novel" so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. Dr. More does just that at the end. (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our story. Our human story. I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these opening comments on chapter 2. Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story is going. In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about LITR: He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). Thoughts? Karl * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 *************************************** * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Thu Jul 10 23:15:25 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2014 23:15:25 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] no becoming In-Reply-To: <2CF74F62-6CA3-446E-8030-C9B0C74760F0@stokeswagner.com> References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com> <53BF38B4.5090205@well.com> <2CF74F62-6CA3-446E-8030-C9B0C74760F0@stokeswagner.com> Message-ID: <4D76A1A4-F609-4440-9A2A-4CAD65B3CAD7@gmail.com> I believe Slomo didn't become he unfolded Becoming happens in time One day he saw and he just let go and could never go back through an old door And now he perfecting his flying And he like Dr More probably doesn't lie anymore Lying is acting and he isn't We all have this inside of us You just have to say yes to it ?? With an open heart of course Sent from my iPad On Jul 10, 2014, at 10:22 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > I need to rephrase a sentence in the last post: > > I said, "he did [previously live a productive life in the rational world]," and then said, "has done so in a thoughtful way." I meant to convey that his decision to become Slomo was done in a thoughtful way. > > Sorry (limited to iPhone at the moment). > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 10, 2014, at 7:08 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: I should have said: He beca > >> Interesting comments and questions. Thanks to all (or, I should say, 'thanks y'all,' since this is a list devoted to a Southern writer, though soon as I say that, I question ... did Percy use 'y'all' much in his dialogues?) >> >> I don't think Slomo has any ambitions for methodology. He's just hit on what seems to make sense for him. Maybe he does have a bad relationship with his son, both pre-Slomo and present. Maybe he does need a female Will Barrett to crash into him and set him up for a bigger picture. It would be interesting to know more about him than could be presented in a 15 minute film. >> >> Personally, for what it's worth, I would be less interested in him had he always been 'Slomo.' If he hadn't preceded this phase of his journey on the planet with a productive career inside the rational world, then his adoption of the Slomo-life wouldn't be worth remarking about. But he did, and has done so in a thoughtful way, it seems, and that's a refreshingly radical life story ... very much in the vein of WP's stories, I thought. Which is why I decided to share it with y'all. >> >> Karl >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:27 PM, "Patrick Lynch" wrote: >> >>> In response to Janet Cantor's query, "Slomo" captures the scientific and active spirit of LITR, as well as "Second Coming," as others have mentioned. However, Slomo's journey seems more individualistic where as Will and More had others journeying with them and sought to include these in their "experiments" (in the long run, excluding Will's cave adventure). I wonder what has become of Slomo's son and what that relationship is like... >>> >>> However, I am not sure that Slomo contains all of Percy's purpose. While spiritual, and while it attack malaise, Slomo's solution does not address a general malaise and a general 4 O'Clock feeling that Percy attends to in his work. Slomo HAS woken up on his own terms, but does it have a more universal methodology. So far Dr More knows he can only diagnose the problem (as of C 2), and he knows he lacks the best treatment for what ails us all, but Slomo seems aware of what treatment works for him. With all due respect, has the filmmaker marginalized and simplified Slomo to such an extent that it becomes difficult to compare him to More? >>> >>> I appreciate Lauren Stacy Berdy's observation that Slomo may need a female Will Barrett (or an Allison) to crash into him to set up a larger picture. >>> >>> Thanks all for such thoughtful comments. >>> Patrick Lynch >>> >>>> Lauren Stacy Berdy July 10, 2014 at 4:04 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable but laughable! >>>> ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) >>>> >>>> and >>>> >>>> Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. >>>> Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? >>>> ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of everything including his luck in this his only world. >>>> Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? Then they can help hold each other up? >>>> His story like our own is still unfolding? >>>> Lauren Stacy Berdy >>>> >>>> On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: >>>> >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> janetcantor37--- via Percy-L July 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM >>>> Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. >>>> Janet Cantor >>>> >>>> >>>> Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: >>>> > >>>> > All, >>>> > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual >>>> > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the >>>> > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned >>>> > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: >>>> > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. >>>> > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second >>>> > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the >>>> > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. >>>> > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I >>>> > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. >>>> > All my best, >>>> > Charles >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >>>> > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM >>>> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>> > >>>> > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >>>> > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > >>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > >>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > >>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>>> > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Today's Topics: >>>> > >>>> > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>> > First" (Karl M. Terrell) >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > >>>> > Message: 1 >>>> > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 >>>> > From: "Karl M. Terrell" >>>> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>>> > , "Percy-L@" <"Literary >>>> > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> >>>> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- >>>> > "July First" >>>> > Message-ID: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> > >>>> > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed >>>> > in his own life, isn't it? >>>> > >>>> > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a >>>> > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a >>>> > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, >>>> > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he >>>> > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington >>>> > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no >>>> > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions >>>> > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to >>>> > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content >>>> > with that answer. >>>> > >>>> > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the >>>> > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a >>>> > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who >>>> > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of >>>> > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. >>>> > >>>> > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and >>>> > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." >>>> > >>>> > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," >>>> > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, >>>> > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had >>>> > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself >>>> > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. >>>> > >>>> > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his >>>> > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo >>>> > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on >>>> > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in >>>> > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of >>>> > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, >>>> > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. >>>> > >>>> > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will >>>> > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory >>>> > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of >>>> > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). >>>> > >>>> > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil >>>> > >>>> > Karl >>>> > >>>> > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren >>>> > Stacy Berdy >>>> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM >>>> > To: Percy-L@ >>>> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>> > First" >>>> > >>>> > Hello, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>> > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>> > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>> > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. >>>> > >>>> > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. >>>> > >>>> > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own >>>> > lives. >>>> > here goes......... >>>> > >>>> > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and >>>> > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. >>>> > >>>> > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best >>>> > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a >>>> > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We >>>> > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF >>>> > THE STAGE. >>>> > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. >>>> > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this >>>> > play his "novel" >>>> > >>>> > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a >>>> > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. >>>> > Dr. More does just that at the end. >>>> > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) >>>> > >>>> > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our >>>> > story. Our human story. >>>> > >>>> > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit >>>> > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this >>>> > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? >>>> > >>>> > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. >>>> > >>>> > Lauren Stacy Berdy >>>> > >>>> > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these >>>> > opening comments on chapter 2. >>>> > >>>> > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years >>>> > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. >>>> > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading >>>> > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). >>>> > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on >>>> > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we >>>> > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. >>>> > >>>> > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, >>>> > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. >>>> > >>>> > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, >>>> > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while >>>> > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main >>>> > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line >>>> > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story >>>> > is going. >>>> > >>>> > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what >>>> > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the >>>> > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the >>>> > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). >>>> > >>>> > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for >>>> > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with >>>> > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What >>>> > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other >>>> > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is >>>> > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of >>>> > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself >>>> > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot >>>> > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, >>>> > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to >>>> > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, >>>> > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." >>>> > >>>> > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor >>>> > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, >>>> > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties >>>> > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. >>>> > >>>> > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a >>>> > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came >>>> > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about >>>> > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very >>>> > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I >>>> > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this >>>> > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of >>>> > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from >>>> > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy >>>> > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of >>>> > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about >>>> > LITR: >>>> > >>>> > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>> > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>> > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>> > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>> > >>>> > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any >>>> > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy >>>> > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth >>>> > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I >>>> > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the >>>> > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the >>>> > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman >>>> > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the >>>> > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the >>>> > late 60s, early 70s). >>>> > >>>> > Thoughts? >>>> > >>>> > Karl >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> > >>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> > URL: >>>> > >>> > tachment.html> >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > Subject: Digest Footer >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Percy-L mailing list >>>> > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------ >>>> > >>>> > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>> > *************************************** >>>> > >>>> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> > >>>> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> > >>>> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> > >>>> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> Karl M. Terrell July 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM >>>> Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> Charles Cowherd July 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM >>>> All, >>>> I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual >>>> crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the >>>> contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned >>>> quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: >>>> "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. >>>> Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second >>>> Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the >>>> others) become kind of grating. But we will see. >>>> I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I >>>> am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. >>>> All my best, >>>> Charles >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >>>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM >>>> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>> >>>> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >>>> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>>> "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>> First" (Karl M. Terrell) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 >>>> From: "Karl M. Terrell" >>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>>> , "Percy-L@" <"Literary >>>> andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- >>>> "July First" >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed >>>> in his own life, isn't it? >>>> >>>> After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a >>>> career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a >>>> wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, >>>> it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he >>>> liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington >>>> would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no >>>> one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions >>>> were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to >>>> responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content >>>> with that answer. >>>> >>>> I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the >>>> same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a >>>> successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who >>>> made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of >>>> expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. >>>> >>>> He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and >>>> asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." >>>> >>>> For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," >>>> he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, >>>> driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had >>>> advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself >>>> financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. >>>> >>>> Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his >>>> practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo >>>> as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on >>>> the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in >>>> the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of >>>> a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, >>>> in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. >>>> >>>> If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will >>>> be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory >>>> adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of >>>> it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). >>>> >>>> http://nyti.ms/1mctVil >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> >>>> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren >>>> Stacy Berdy >>>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM >>>> To: Percy-L@ >>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>> First" >>>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> >>>> He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>> ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>> was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>> other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>> >>>> >>>> Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. >>>> >>>> We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. >>>> >>>> The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own >>>> lives. >>>> here goes......... >>>> >>>> as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and >>>> a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. >>>> >>>> The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best >>>> audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a >>>> standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We >>>> become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF >>>> THE STAGE. >>>> DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. >>>> More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this >>>> play his "novel" >>>> >>>> so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a >>>> wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. >>>> Dr. More does just that at the end. >>>> (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) >>>> >>>> Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our >>>> story. Our human story. >>>> >>>> I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit >>>> by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this >>>> spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? >>>> >>>> Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. >>>> >>>> Lauren Stacy Berdy >>>> >>>> On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: >>>> >>>> Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these >>>> opening comments on chapter 2. >>>> >>>> Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years >>>> loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. >>>> Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading >>>> was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). >>>> And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on >>>> this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we >>>> go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. >>>> >>>> I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, >>>> from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. >>>> >>>> I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, >>>> but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while >>>> reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main >>>> plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line >>>> clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story >>>> is going. >>>> >>>> In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what >>>> he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the >>>> wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the >>>> descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). >>>> >>>> I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for >>>> example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with >>>> don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What >>>> was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other >>>> words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is >>>> (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of >>>> annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself >>>> enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot >>>> at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, >>>> end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to >>>> go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, >>>> Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." >>>> >>>> Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor >>>> assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, >>>> encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties >>>> of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. >>>> >>>> So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a >>>> yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came >>>> across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about >>>> Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very >>>> limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I >>>> bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this >>>> connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of >>>> existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from >>>> and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy >>>> by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of >>>> connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about >>>> LITR: >>>> >>>> He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>> ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>> was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>> other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>> >>>> Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any >>>> thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy >>>> really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth >>>> disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I >>>> believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the >>>> search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the >>>> church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman >>>> wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the >>>> interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the >>>> late 60s, early 70s). >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> >>> tachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Percy-L mailing list >>>> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>> *************************************** >>>> >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Fri Jul 11 00:35:26 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 04:35:26 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] no becoming In-Reply-To: <4D76A1A4-F609-4440-9A2A-4CAD65B3CAD7@gmail.com> References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com> <53BF38B4.5090205@well.com> <2CF74F62-6CA3-446E-8030-C9B0C74760F0@stokeswagner.com>, <4D76A1A4-F609-4440-9A2A-4CAD65B3CAD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Great points. As regards the topic of lying, my guess is Slomo -- like Dr. More, and also Binx -- has had his fill. The acts of lying imposes, after all, a most stressful way of life (you have to have too remarkable of a memory, as has been observed). I laugh often when reading dialogue with Binx and More. No matter the question posed, even those calling for an embarrassingly revealing response, the answer comes back precise as a bus stop -- "yes" or "no" or "that's true." Don't get me wrong .... Nothing really wrong with lying (we all do it, and most often without harming anyone other than possibly ourselves). To live without lying is indeed remarkable. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2014, at 8:16 PM, "Lauren Stacy Berdy" > wrote: I believe Slomo didn't become he unfolded Becoming happens in time One day he saw and he just let go and could never go back through an old door And now he perfecting his flying And he like Dr More probably doesn't lie anymore Lying is acting and he isn't We all have this inside of us You just have to say yes to it ?? With an open heart of course Sent from my iPad On Jul 10, 2014, at 10:22 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: I need to rephrase a sentence in the last post: I said, "he did [previously live a productive life in the rational world]," and then said, "has done so in a thoughtful way." I meant to convey that his decision to become Slomo was done in a thoughtful way. Sorry (limited to iPhone at the moment). Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2014, at 7:08 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: I should have said: He beca Interesting comments and questions. Thanks to all (or, I should say, 'thanks y'all,' since this is a list devoted to a Southern writer, though soon as I say that, I question ... did Percy use 'y'all' much in his dialogues?) I don't think Slomo has any ambitions for methodology. He's just hit on what seems to make sense for him. Maybe he does have a bad relationship with his son, both pre-Slomo and present. Maybe he does need a female Will Barrett to crash into him and set him up for a bigger picture. It would be interesting to know more about him than could be presented in a 15 minute film. Personally, for what it's worth, I would be less interested in him had he always been 'Slomo.' If he hadn't preceded this phase of his journey on the planet with a productive career inside the rational world, then his adoption of the Slomo-life wouldn't be worth remarking about. But he did, and has done so in a thoughtful way, it seems, and that's a refreshingly radical life story ... very much in the vein of WP's stories, I thought. Which is why I decided to share it with y'all. Karl Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:27 PM, "Patrick Lynch" > wrote: In response to Janet Cantor's query, "Slomo" captures the scientific and active spirit of LITR, as well as "Second Coming," as others have mentioned. However, Slomo's journey seems more individualistic where as Will and More had others journeying with them and sought to include these in their "experiments" (in the long run, excluding Will's cave adventure). I wonder what has become of Slomo's son and what that relationship is like... However, I am not sure that Slomo contains all of Percy's purpose. While spiritual, and while it attack malaise, Slomo's solution does not address a general malaise and a general 4 O'Clock feeling that Percy attends to in his work. Slomo HAS woken up on his own terms, but does it have a more universal methodology. So far Dr More knows he can only diagnose the problem (as of C 2), and he knows he lacks the best treatment for what ails us all, but Slomo seems aware of what treatment works for him. With all due respect, has the filmmaker marginalized and simplified Slomo to such an extent that it becomes difficult to compare him to More? I appreciate Lauren Stacy Berdy's observation that Slomo may need a female Will Barrett (or an Allison) to crash into him to set up a larger picture. Thanks all for such thoughtful comments. Patrick Lynch Lauren Stacy Berdy July 10, 2014 at 4:04 PM through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable but laughable! ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) and Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of everything including his luck in this his only world. Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? Then they can help hold each other up? His story like our own is still unfolding? Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy janetcantor37--- via Percy-L July 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. Janet Cantor Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" > wrote: > > All, > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, > Charles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" (Karl M. Terrell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 > From: "Karl M. Terrell" > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >, "Percy-L@" <"Literary > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- > "July First" > Message-ID: > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed > in his own life, isn't it? > > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content > with that answer. > > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. > > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." > > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. > > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. > > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). > > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil > > Karl > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren > Stacy Berdy > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM > To: Percy-L@ > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July > First" > > Hello, > > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. > > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. > > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own > lives. > here goes......... > > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. > > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF > THE STAGE. > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this > play his "novel" > > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. > Dr. More does just that at the end. > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) > > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our > story. Our human story. > > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? > > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these > opening comments on chapter 2. > > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. > > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. > > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story > is going. > > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). > > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." > > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. > > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about > LITR: > > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." > > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the > late 60s, early 70s). > > Thoughts? > > Karl > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > tachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 > *************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Karl M. Terrell July 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. Karl Sent from my iPhone * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Charles Cowherd July 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM All, I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the others) become kind of grating. But we will see. I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. All my best, Charles -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" (Karl M. Terrell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 From: "Karl M. Terrell" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" , "Percy-L@" <"Literary andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed in his own life, isn't it? After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content with that answer. I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). http://nyti.ms/1mctVil Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren Stacy Berdy Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM To: Percy-L@ Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July First" Hello, He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own lives. here goes......... as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF THE STAGE. DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this play his "novel" so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. Dr. More does just that at the end. (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our story. Our human story. I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these opening comments on chapter 2. Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story is going. In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about LITR: He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the late 60s, early 70s). Thoughts? Karl * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 00:59:11 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 00:59:11 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] wow In-Reply-To: References: <1405027579.11822.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53BF1C18.5050800@gmail.com> <53BF38B4.5090205@well.com> <2CF74F62-6CA3-446E-8030-C9B0C74760F0@stokeswagner.com> <4D76A1A4-F609-4440-9A2A-4CAD65B3CAD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: "Precise as a bus stop" An Agee line if I ever heard one! ( some reviewers compared WP sentences to Agee) Sent from my iPad On Jul 11, 2014, at 12:35 AM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > Great points. As regards the topic of lying, my guess is Slomo -- like Dr. More, and also Binx -- has had his fill. The acts of lying imposes, after all, a most stressful way of life (you have to have too remarkable of a memory, as has been observed). > > I laugh often when reading dialogue with Binx and More. No matter the question posed, even those calling for an embarrassingly revealing response, the answer comes back precise as a bus stop -- "yes" or "no" or "that's true." > > Don't get me wrong .... Nothing really wrong with lying (we all do it, and most often without harming anyone other than possibly ourselves). To live without lying is indeed remarkable. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 10, 2014, at 8:16 PM, "Lauren Stacy Berdy" wrote: > >> I believe Slomo didn't become he unfolded >> Becoming happens in time >> One day he saw and he just let go and could never go back through an old door >> And now he perfecting his flying >> And he like Dr More probably doesn't lie anymore >> Lying is acting and he isn't >> We all have this inside of us >> You just have to say yes to it ?? >> With an open heart of course >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 10, 2014, at 10:22 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: >> >>> I need to rephrase a sentence in the last post: >>> >>> I said, "he did [previously live a productive life in the rational world]," and then said, "has done so in a thoughtful way." I meant to convey that his decision to become Slomo was done in a thoughtful way. >>> >>> Sorry (limited to iPhone at the moment). >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2014, at 7:08 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: I should have said: He beca >>> >>>> Interesting comments and questions. Thanks to all (or, I should say, 'thanks y'all,' since this is a list devoted to a Southern writer, though soon as I say that, I question ... did Percy use 'y'all' much in his dialogues?) >>>> >>>> I don't think Slomo has any ambitions for methodology. He's just hit on what seems to make sense for him. Maybe he does have a bad relationship with his son, both pre-Slomo and present. Maybe he does need a female Will Barrett to crash into him and set him up for a bigger picture. It would be interesting to know more about him than could be presented in a 15 minute film. >>>> >>>> Personally, for what it's worth, I would be less interested in him had he always been 'Slomo.' If he hadn't preceded this phase of his journey on the planet with a productive career inside the rational world, then his adoption of the Slomo-life wouldn't be worth remarking about. But he did, and has done so in a thoughtful way, it seems, and that's a refreshingly radical life story ... very much in the vein of WP's stories, I thought. Which is why I decided to share it with y'all. >>>> >>>> Karl >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jul 10, 2014, at 6:27 PM, "Patrick Lynch" wrote: >>>> >>>>> In response to Janet Cantor's query, "Slomo" captures the scientific and active spirit of LITR, as well as "Second Coming," as others have mentioned. However, Slomo's journey seems more individualistic where as Will and More had others journeying with them and sought to include these in their "experiments" (in the long run, excluding Will's cave adventure). I wonder what has become of Slomo's son and what that relationship is like... >>>>> >>>>> However, I am not sure that Slomo contains all of Percy's purpose. While spiritual, and while it attack malaise, Slomo's solution does not address a general malaise and a general 4 O'Clock feeling that Percy attends to in his work. Slomo HAS woken up on his own terms, but does it have a more universal methodology. So far Dr More knows he can only diagnose the problem (as of C 2), and he knows he lacks the best treatment for what ails us all, but Slomo seems aware of what treatment works for him. With all due respect, has the filmmaker marginalized and simplified Slomo to such an extent that it becomes difficult to compare him to More? >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate Lauren Stacy Berdy's observation that Slomo may need a female Will Barrett (or an Allison) to crash into him to set up a larger picture. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks all for such thoughtful comments. >>>>> Patrick Lynch >>>>> >>>>>> Lauren Stacy Berdy July 10, 2014 at 4:04 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> through the self the predicament of self becomes not only speakable but laughable! >>>>>> ( kafka and his friends LAUGHED when the unnameable was named) >>>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. Percy has shown us to start with the world. It is our aggregate. >>>>>> Slomo laughs a lot and he seems to live very simply......... Maybe,he is some kind of Kafka on rollerbaldes? >>>>>> ( I sort of think he is a cousin to Ally in "The Second Coming") he is very careful with the words he uses and he makes good use of everything including his luck in this his only world. >>>>>> Maybe a female Will Barrett will crash into him on her roller blades? Then they can help hold each other up? >>>>>> His story like our own is still unfolding? >>>>>> Lauren Stacy Berdy >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/10/2014 5:26 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> >>>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> janetcantor37--- via Percy-L July 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM >>>>>> Does everyone on the Lists agree that this is what Walker Percy is driving at? I would like other feedback about this, please. >>>>>> Janet Cantor >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. >>>>>> >>>>>> Karl >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> > On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:52 PM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > All, >>>>>> > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual >>>>>> > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the >>>>>> > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned >>>>>> > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: >>>>>> > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. >>>>>> > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second >>>>>> > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the >>>>>> > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. >>>>>> > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I >>>>>> > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. >>>>>> > All my best, >>>>>> > Charles >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>>>> > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM >>>>>> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >>>>>> > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>>> > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>>> > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>>>>> > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Today's Topics: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>>>> > First" (Karl M. Terrell) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Message: 1 >>>>>> > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 >>>>>> > From: "Karl M. Terrell" >>>>>> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>>>>> > , "Percy-L@" <"Literary >>>>>> > andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- >>>>>> > "July First" >>>>>> > Message-ID: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed >>>>>> > in his own life, isn't it? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a >>>>>> > career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a >>>>>> > wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, >>>>>> > it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he >>>>>> > liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington >>>>>> > would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no >>>>>> > one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions >>>>>> > were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to >>>>>> > responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content >>>>>> > with that answer. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the >>>>>> > same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a >>>>>> > successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who >>>>>> > made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of >>>>>> > expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and >>>>>> > asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," >>>>>> > he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, >>>>>> > driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had >>>>>> > advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself >>>>>> > financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his >>>>>> > practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo >>>>>> > as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on >>>>>> > the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in >>>>>> > the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of >>>>>> > a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, >>>>>> > in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will >>>>>> > be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory >>>>>> > adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of >>>>>> > it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). >>>>>> > >>>>>> > http://nyti.ms/1mctVil >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Karl >>>>>> > >>>>>> > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren >>>>>> > Stacy Berdy >>>>>> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM >>>>>> > To: Percy-L@ >>>>>> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>>>> > First" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hello, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>>>> > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>>>> > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>>>> > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own >>>>>> > lives. >>>>>> > here goes......... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and >>>>>> > a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best >>>>>> > audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a >>>>>> > standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We >>>>>> > become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF >>>>>> > THE STAGE. >>>>>> > DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. >>>>>> > More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this >>>>>> > play his "novel" >>>>>> > >>>>>> > so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a >>>>>> > wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. >>>>>> > Dr. More does just that at the end. >>>>>> > (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our >>>>>> > story. Our human story. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit >>>>>> > by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this >>>>>> > spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Lauren Stacy Berdy >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these >>>>>> > opening comments on chapter 2. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years >>>>>> > loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. >>>>>> > Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading >>>>>> > was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). >>>>>> > And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on >>>>>> > this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we >>>>>> > go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, >>>>>> > from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, >>>>>> > but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while >>>>>> > reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main >>>>>> > plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line >>>>>> > clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story >>>>>> > is going. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what >>>>>> > he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the >>>>>> > wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the >>>>>> > descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for >>>>>> > example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with >>>>>> > don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What >>>>>> > was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other >>>>>> > words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is >>>>>> > (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of >>>>>> > annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself >>>>>> > enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot >>>>>> > at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, >>>>>> > end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to >>>>>> > go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, >>>>>> > Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor >>>>>> > assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, >>>>>> > encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties >>>>>> > of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a >>>>>> > yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came >>>>>> > across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about >>>>>> > Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very >>>>>> > limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I >>>>>> > bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this >>>>>> > connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of >>>>>> > existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from >>>>>> > and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy >>>>>> > by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of >>>>>> > connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about >>>>>> > LITR: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>>>> > ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>>>> > was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>>>> > other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any >>>>>> > thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy >>>>>> > really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth >>>>>> > disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I >>>>>> > believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the >>>>>> > search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the >>>>>> > church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman >>>>>> > wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the >>>>>> > interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the >>>>>> > late 60s, early 70s). >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Thoughts? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Karl >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>> > URL: >>>>>> > >>>>> > tachment.html> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Subject: Digest Footer >>>>>> > >>>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>>> > Percy-L mailing list >>>>>> > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > ------------------------------ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>>>> > *************************************** >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> > >>>>>> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> >>>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> >>>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> Karl M. Terrell July 10, 2014 at 1:36 PM >>>>>> Glad you liked the Slomo video. The idea of "do what you want" may not be particularly elegant, but when actually pursued by way of escaping what we call the rational world, in order to live a life of meaning -- whatever that might mean to a particular individual -- has value, I think. >>>>>> >>>>>> Karl >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> >>>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> >>>>>> Charles Cowherd July 10, 2014 at 12:52 PM >>>>>> All, >>>>>> I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual >>>>>> crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the >>>>>> contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned >>>>>> quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: >>>>>> "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. >>>>>> Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second >>>>>> Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the >>>>>> others) become kind of grating. But we will see. >>>>>> I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I >>>>>> am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. >>>>>> All my best, >>>>>> Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:22 PM >>>>>> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>>>> >>>>>> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >>>>>> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>>> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>>>>> "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Re: Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>>>> First" (Karl M. Terrell) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> Message: 1 >>>>>> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:21:19 +0000 >>>>>> From: "Karl M. Terrell" >>>>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>>>>> , "Percy-L@" <"Literary >>>>>> andPhilosophicalDiscussionpercy-l"@lists.ibiblio.org> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- >>>>>> "July First" >>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>>> >>>>>> This is, I think, a satisfying explanation. It's also what Percy followed >>>>>> in his own life, isn't it? >>>>>> >>>>>> After his recovery from tuberculosis, he turned his back on medicine as a >>>>>> career and, in your words, 'got off the stage and got quiet and grabbed a >>>>>> wife and lived a life of quiet joys or whatever came his way' .... For him, >>>>>> it was a life of study and writing, in Covington, La., which I understand he >>>>>> liked because it was "not a place." I've read also, people in Covington >>>>>> would ask him what he did for a living, and when he said, "I'm a writer," no >>>>>> one could accept just that as an answer, and I'm guessing too many questions >>>>>> were asked that he didn't really want to explain. Eventually, he took to >>>>>> responding - "I don't do anything." Most, he reported, were quite content >>>>>> with that answer. >>>>>> >>>>>> I saw a great, short documentary (linked below) about a fellow who did the >>>>>> same thing, in his own way .... Dr. John Kitchins - now known as Slomo - a >>>>>> successful neurologist/psychiatrist in San Diego, originally from N.C., who >>>>>> made a lot of money, lived in what he called a mansion, an owner of >>>>>> expensive sports cars, an exotic animal farm, etc., etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> He met, one day, a 90 year old man who appeared healthy and satisfied, and >>>>>> asked him how he had achieved this. The reply: "Do what you want." >>>>>> >>>>>> For the next 20 years, though, Dr. Kitchins continued to live "miserably," >>>>>> he said, in what he called "the rational world." At the end of each day, >>>>>> driving home in his 12-cylinder BMW, he would ask himself how much he had >>>>>> advanced himself that day spiritually and how much he had advanced himself >>>>>> financially. Increasingly, he was advancing only on the latter front. >>>>>> >>>>>> Taking the lesson from the old man to "do what you want," he gave up his >>>>>> practice and his possessions - save for a small apartment - and today, Slomo >>>>>> as he now calls himself, spends most of his waking hours roller-blading on >>>>>> the boardwalk in San Diego, balancing with arms outstretched and one leg in >>>>>> the air behind him, which he likens it to flying (and provides something of >>>>>> a neurological explanation for this). He spends his days flying ... which, >>>>>> in dreams, is interpreted usually as signifying happiness. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you've seen him there, or if you watch the video, your first thought will >>>>>> be that he is crazy. He seems, instead, to have made a satisfactory >>>>>> adjustment to the comic and the religious (or spiritual, for Slomo speak of >>>>>> it in the latter way, not in any kind of 'church' way). >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nyti.ms/1mctVil >>>>>> >>>>>> Karl >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Lauren >>>>>> Stacy Berdy >>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:31 PM >>>>>> To: Percy-L@ >>>>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins 'slow read' -- chapter 2 -- "July >>>>>> First" >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>>>> ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>>>> was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>>>> other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Explainer's are part of the comedy, Dr. Percy knew this so well. >>>>>> >>>>>> We are all being part of the broad comedy routine we call living. >>>>>> >>>>>> The comedy comes into the sweep of his thought thru the door our our own >>>>>> lives. >>>>>> here goes......... >>>>>> >>>>>> as I understand from reading a selective reading ( very) of Kierkegaard and >>>>>> a long pull of the good doctors diagnosis for all of us. >>>>>> >>>>>> The comedy is ourselves..........we ( us) are both actors and our own best >>>>>> audience. The doers and observers of our own actions and decisions.We lack a >>>>>> standpoint to view ourselves. To be fully revealed and fully known. We >>>>>> become the audience for our own tragic existence. WE ARE UNABLE TO GET OFF >>>>>> THE STAGE. >>>>>> DR. Percy is the ironist who is bringing the play to our attention thru Dr. >>>>>> More. He is not judging he is if you will the "producer"/Play write of this >>>>>> play his "novel" >>>>>> >>>>>> so it is hilarious that we don't get off the stage and get quiet and "grab a >>>>>> wife and live a life" of quiet joys or whatever comes our way. >>>>>> Dr. More does just that at the end. >>>>>> (The other (Ellen) will help him revel himself to himself) >>>>>> >>>>>> Frankly, for me everything else in the book is helping us to tell our >>>>>> story. Our human story. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the trick here is to see the humor of ourselves and to pony up a bit >>>>>> by examining our own everyday lives as we move thru space and time.("on this >>>>>> spinning cinder") After all he was a excellent diagnostician wasn't he? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you very much for this excellent dialogue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lauren Stacy Berdy >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/6/2014 11:36 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone. I am picking up the baton on the slow read, with these >>>>>> opening comments on chapter 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> Disclaimers: One, I am not an academic - just someone who has for many years >>>>>> loved Percy's prose, his ideas and observations on the human condition. >>>>>> Two, while I have read close to everything he's written, most of my reading >>>>>> was done quite a few years ago (I recently re-read The Moviegoer, though). >>>>>> And three, it's been 20 or more years since I last read LITR .... and, on >>>>>> this go-round, I haven't read past chapter 2 yet. I am reading this 'as we >>>>>> go,' and almost as if reading it for the first time. >>>>>> >>>>>> I welcome any insights my few observations and questions might generate, >>>>>> from amateurs like me, and from those who've really studied Percy. >>>>>> >>>>>> I like the comment someone made recently, not to 'make a campsite' of LITR, >>>>>> but to think of it as a trail. I thought about that a few times while >>>>>> reading this chapter, as I found myself trying to keep a handle on the main >>>>>> plot-line - turning back a few pages every so often, looking for plot-line >>>>>> clues maybe I might've missed - and just generally wondering where the story >>>>>> is going. >>>>>> >>>>>> In the end, I guess, plot/story line was not really Percy's forte; not what >>>>>> he was about. Agree? Disagree? In any event, what carries me along is the >>>>>> wonderful writing and his observations, the vivid characters, and the >>>>>> descriptions of his world (real world Louisiana, set in an imagined future). >>>>>> >>>>>> I also found myself wondering: how reliable is our narrator? I noted, for >>>>>> example, at least two passages where the characters More interacts with >>>>>> don't see the vines (Ruby the bartender at p. 88 and Max at p. 115 ["What >>>>>> was that about the vines?"] - Farrar, Straus, 1991 printing). In other >>>>>> words, how much of what is presented in the story, as told to us by More, is >>>>>> (so to speak) actually happening? At one or two points I felt a tinge of >>>>>> annoyance thinking about this, but by the end of the chapter I found myself >>>>>> enjoying the tension created by this uncertainty - Is he really being shot >>>>>> at by a sniper? Is a Bantu uprising, or worse, really in the works? See, >>>>>> end of subchapter 12, the conversation with Victor: "Now everything's got to >>>>>> go and everybody loses." / I rise unsteadily. "Everybody?" / ... "Not you, >>>>>> Doc. All you got to do is move in with your mama. She'll do for you." >>>>>> >>>>>> Speaking of Victor, the opening scene in subchapter 13 - where Victor >>>>>> assists our addled hero through the door of the Little Napoleon, >>>>>> encountering Leroy Ledbetter - is a brilliant exposition of the subtleties >>>>>> of racial mores and customs in the Jim Crow world. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, what's the larger goal or idea of this novel, beyond the spinning of a >>>>>> yarn? I'm aware of the Kierkegaard influence, so I googled that, and came >>>>>> across an interview Percy gave in 1974 - "Walker Percy Talks about >>>>>> Kierkegaard" (Journal of Religion). My knowledge of Kierkegaard is very >>>>>> limited (covered in a few philosophy courses taken many years ago), and so I >>>>>> bring this up only to invite comment from those more knowledgeable in this >>>>>> connection. My limited understanding is of K's role as the father of >>>>>> existentialism, and of his radical emphasis on the individual, distinct from >>>>>> and in reaction to the more systematic (right word?) approach to philosophy >>>>>> by Hegel. The search for the true self seems to be Percy's point of >>>>>> connection with K. Except, Percy said the following in the interview about >>>>>> LITR: >>>>>> >>>>>> He explains an idea from reading K, concerning the seemingly disconnected >>>>>> ideas of the comic and the religious. Of LITR, he states: "In this novel, I >>>>>> was less interested in a search, in progressing from one category to the >>>>>> other, than I was in the exercise of the comic and the religious." >>>>>> >>>>>> Not sure I fully understand this concept, and would be interested in any >>>>>> thoughts one might have. I get the comic end of things, but what is Percy >>>>>> really referring to when he terms More as a Bad Catholic? (Fourth >>>>>> disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, and in fact count myself as agnostic - I >>>>>> believe my interest in Percy nonetheless stems from his emphasis on the >>>>>> search for meaning at the individual level, rather than at the >>>>>> church/man-made level ... and, I like the skewering of the Englishman >>>>>> wife-Doris runs off with, who dabbles in Oriental mysticism. In the >>>>>> interview on K, he talks in the same vein about the communal hippies of the >>>>>> late 60s, early 70s). >>>>>> >>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> Karl >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>> URL: >>>>>> >>>>> tachment.html> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Digest Footer >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Percy-L mailing list >>>>>> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> >>>>>> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 9 >>>>>> *************************************** >>>>>> >>>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>>> >>>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>>> >>>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>>> >>>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>>>> >>>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>>> >>>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>>> >>>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>>> >>>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>>> >>>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>>> >>>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>>> >>>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Fri Jul 11 08:43:05 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 08:43:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Slomo Etc - Film links and related items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53BFDBD9.7010906@gmail.com> For those who missed it, here is the link to "Slomo," which is a film short of about 15". http://vimeo.com/90655826 An interesting inside look into Dr. John Kitchin's deliberate life change is found at the following URL, including writings and candid video. http://iamslomo.com/ You may also find a film review at: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/04/03/3755977/the-carolina-back-story-of-slomo.html Best, Henry Mills On 7/10/14, 3:52 PM, Charles Cowherd wrote: > All, > I loved the video of "Slomo", gives a modern example of the spiritual > crisis/ malaise at the heart of Percy's work. I am thinking about the > contrast between his mantra "Do what you want" to the previously mentioned > quotation/ repetition in Percy's work from the story of the Prodigal Son: > "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". Just a thought. > Had less joy with the second chapter of LITR. I had just read "The Second > Coming" and some of the similarities between the novels (as well as the > others) become kind of grating. But we will see. > I am on tap for the 3rd chapter, which I will deliver on the 13th, if I > am reading the schedule correctly. It's a much shorter chapter. > All my best, > Charles > > > > From wriddick at usa.net Sat Jul 12 01:11:38 2014 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 00:11:38 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Do what you want" => fulfill your desire (the Mallification of the American South; the reduction of worshippers to consumers - or, perhaps, their transformation into worshippers of Mammon) >"And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". => What you are is not what you want. What you want distracts you from what you are. This is Kierkegaard's rotation and repetition at work. We are all prodigal, in this sense, because we don't know what loss is. We don't even understand what the gift is. I'm thinking here of the lessons of Epictetus on loss and jealousy in the Prodigal Son. Jealousy seems a rather useless emotion in a world destined for nothing but loss. Can we not quote the entirety of other comments? It rather rapidly fills up our inboxes. From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sat Jul 12 12:15:40 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 12:15:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the gift In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53C15F2C.9030407@gmail.com> * **"we don't understand what the gift is" * I'm not sure who Slomo stands before and what his epistemology is? however just perhaps he is in the service of his Daemon? ( the opposite being narcissism) A NARCISSUS FEELS THAT THE "GIFT" COMES FROM HIMSELF. and yes we are in an age which no one sacrifices to his genius we live in a time when the adoration of the public turns men and woman into celebrities which cuts off all commerce with the guardian spirit. The celebrity trades on his gift. He doesn't sacrifice to them....... and without that sacrifice the returned GIFT cannot be set free. Slomo needs an audience............(the gift must stay in motion).hahah and Dr. More knows finally that his gifts can't be withheld. What is his gift? it is not the lapsometer. It is the discovery of the everyday magic, the delights of the ordinary things while living under the canopy of a the mystery which ) Percy called God and knew it was good and that Christianity and the Christ would teach us so.............( others might call it other names) For myself, I am drawn to fact that Dr. Percy knows that we humans have goodness inside of us it gets demented by our thinking.its all there for us to partake in maybe Slomo just isn't demented anymore? and what we are witness to is his learning how to crawl as an adult.....what it look like when he starts walking? I don't know. but that what makes life exciting and want to stay tuned..watch the world the story unfolds......... Lauren Stacy Berdy , Wade Riddick wrote: > "Do what you want" => fulfill your desire (the Mallification of the > American South; the reduction of worshippers to consumers - or, perhaps, > their transformation into worshippers of Mammon) > >> "And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". > => What you are is not what you want. What you want distracts you from > what you are. > > This is Kierkegaard's rotation and repetition at work. > > We are all prodigal, in this sense, because we don't know what loss is. We > don't even understand what the gift is. I'm thinking here of the lessons > of Epictetus on loss and jealousy in the Prodigal Son. Jealousy seems a > rather useless emotion in a world destined for nothing but loss. > > Can we not quote the entirety of other comments? It rather rapidly fills > up our inboxes. > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Sat Jul 12 14:22:18 2014 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 18:22:18 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB044C853@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Slomo is an interesting parallel, yet I'm not sure I put him on the ledge next to Dr. More, at least in the manner in which he's depicted. In a way, Slomo's story is only interesting to us in the upper-middle-class context of what he's seemingly left behind: a successful career and education, his native South, and the decision to pursue what he wants--a decision, it appears, that still required some sort of external catalyst, or event. As I take it from the video, he developed a neuropsychiatric condition which leaves him with the ability to recognize other people's faces, or prosopagnosia, which was brilliantly described by Oliver Sacks in The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat (I can only dream of the conversations those two might have had). It's Slomo's choice, that seems most interesting. One wonders if there hadn't been an event (or a disease) how much longer Slomo would have continued to "shovel shit" and "remain an asshole." He's lauded as a celebrity because somehow an external event outside his control has somehow managed to unsheath and demystify his gleaming purpose, and he transcends what the rest of us long for--to do what we want. But what we want, as pointed out earlier, distracts us from what we are. For me, at least, one of Percy's essential struggles, and questions, has been one of mindfulness: how do we access the Gift? There's a quote attributed to Chekhov, "Any idiot can face a crisis, it's the day-to-day living that wears you out"--that's always summed up for me what Percy is trying to access. Binx, and More are propelled to go on their Search after some tragic event, and it's a natural human reaction--purpose gives meaning to tragedy. Slomo has found his meaning in rollerblading, on the sun-drenched Zen coast of California. More, at least from what he tells us so far, does want to help humanity with his lapsometer. It may be far-fetched, or theoretical, the work of a madman, but it seems there's intention. As I watched the Slomo video, I could steadily hear my internal Nurse Ellen, prodding him to snap out of it and get back to work. Slomo loses some of his self-awareness the moment he becomes part of the larger narrative constructed by the film-maker (what would Percy think about selfies?)--to quote Percy, the thing is no longer the thing. I guess More loses some of the Self, as well, simply by telling us his story, in the constructed narrative of LiTR. I guess that's why I still enjoying reading much more than film. Thanks to everyone for all the interesting discussion and ideas so far! I've really been enjoying this campsite... Gregory Plemmons ________________________________________ From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of Wade Riddick [wriddick at usa.net] Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:11 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Slomo Etc "Do what you want" => fulfill your desire (the Mallification of the American South; the reduction of worshippers to consumers - or, perhaps, their transformation into worshippers of Mammon) >"And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". => What you are is not what you want. What you want distracts you from what you are. This is Kierkegaard's rotation and repetition at work. We are all prodigal, in this sense, because we don't know what loss is. We don't even understand what the gift is. I'm thinking here of the lessons of Epictetus on loss and jealousy in the Prodigal Son. Jealousy seems a rather useless emotion in a world destined for nothing but loss. Can we not quote the entirety of other comments? It rather rapidly fills up our inboxes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Sat Jul 12 17:49:28 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:49:28 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB044C853@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: , <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB044C853@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: <3d03dd90765e435c9d17df616539415f@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Very interesting. Thank you. It is sobering that Slomo, to the extent he participates in the narrative of his celebrity, loses some of his Self and self-awareness. But so it goes. This is the world we live in. This is why Warhol's phrase -- 'In the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes' -- captured everyone's imagination in 1968, as we found ourselves racing mid-way up the ramp into the modern-media world we know. I think Slomo gives a pretty fair description, though, of what he's up to in the film. I would note, first, that he doesn't condemn everything from the life he had before. He says nothing negative about his former profession, and in fact says he enjoyed, early on, a progress which was 90% spiritual and 10% financial. Not bad. But then time passed, those numbers were reversing, and he found himself in despair. He found himself having been cut loose - but, from what? Upon first embarking into Slomo-world, he most likely wasn't able to say - The dude just likes to rollerblade. But, I'm willing to bet he knew he was "onto something," as WP put it: "The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair." I too felt my 'inner Nurse Ellen,' while watching and thinking about the film. But, I think there's more to Slomo, more to what makes him interesting, beyond the narrative of what he left behind in the middle class context. We can't all be Slomo, at least not all of us all at once in the present, and even Slomo couldn't be Slomo all the time. At the basic level of day-to-day life, we the ordinary people, as we head past the age of "eleven and a half" -- the age of consciousness to which Slomo says he aspires -- have to begin the life process of providing for ourselves. If we choose a family (a good choice, for most), we have to provide for others. Perhaps a tragedy separates you from this life process of having to provide, and sends you on the search. Or, perhaps you're simply wealthy, or perhaps you truly care not for material possessions in excess of the basic needs, and thus -- either way -- you have the means to set aside the urgent need to provide, and at least have the opportunity to examine the fact of being stuck in your everydayness, and maybe even the insight to do something about it. Whatever may have been the case, in Dr. Kitchins' life, is interesting to think about, but is only (to me) of passing interest. What is truly interesting to me, is this: Regardless of what may have been his catalyst, we're witness to the story of an actual life (albeit, based only on the little we can actually know) of someone who appears genuinely engaged in the search which Percy wrote about. Percian fiction come to life, if you will. From Slomo's few comments, we can hear that he had become (Percy's words) "sunk in the everydayness of his own life." As Slomo puts it, he was on the track of "working himself into oblivion," was "shoveling shit," and had become "what Americans call an asshole." He identifies the enemy, so to speak, as the "rational world," which had driven him into this state. He was lashed by the whip, and thought he could ease the pain by writing checks to pay for the BMW, the Ferrari, the mansion, etc. What is interesting is the large way -- the refreshingly radical, and quite dramatic way -- in which Slomo has embarked upon the search, and that he does appear to have recaptured the spiritual consciousness of an "eleven and a half year old boy." He claims, genuinely I believe, to now "experience myself like a tip of a great iceberg of consciousness." I would be skeptical of most who would say such a thing (I wouldn't believe my own self, if those words were to tumble from my mouth), and yet in his case it appears genuine. It seems safe to say that he remains a thoughtful person, and has achieved a sense of ease within this world -- a flying happiness -- which very few in this "deranged age" will ever know. "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing" -- WP. Slomo, it appears, has at least some faint idea. Karl -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Plemmons, Gregory Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 2:22 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Slomo Etc Slomo is an interesting parallel, yet I'm not sure I put him on the ledge next to Dr. More, at least in the manner in which he's depicted. In a way, Slomo's story is only interesting to us in the upper-middle-class context of what he's seemingly left behind: a successful career and education, his native South, and the decision to pursue what he wants--a decision, it appears, that still required some sort of external catalyst, or event. As I take it from the video, he developed a neuropsychiatric condition which leaves him with the ability to recognize other people's faces, or prosopagnosia, which was brilliantly described by Oliver Sacks in The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat (I can only dream of the conversations those two might have had). It's Slomo's choice, that seems most interesting. One wonders if there hadn't been an event (or a disease) how much longer Slomo would have continued to "shovel shit" and "remain an asshole." He's lauded as a celebrity because somehow a n external event outside his control has somehow managed to unsheath and demystify his gleaming purpose, and he transcends what the rest of us long for--to do what we want. But what we want, as pointed out earlier, distracts us from what we are. For me, at least, one of Percy's essential struggles, and questions, has been one of mindfulness: how do we access the Gift? There's a quote attributed to Chekhov, "Any idiot can face a crisis, it's the day-to-day living that wears you out"--that's always summed up for me what Percy is trying to access. Binx, and More are propelled to go on their Search after some tragic event, and it's a natural human reaction--purpose gives meaning to tragedy. Slomo has found his meaning in rollerblading, on the sun-drenched Zen coast of California. More, at least from what he tells us so far, does want to help humanity with his lapsometer. It may be far-fetched, or theoretical, the work of a madman, but it seems there's intention. As I watched the Slomo video, I could steadily hear my internal Nurse Ellen, prodding him to snap out of it and get back to work. Slomo loses some of his self-awareness the moment he becomes part of the larger narrative constructed by the film-maker (what would Percy think about selfies?)--to quote Percy, the thing is no longer the thing. I guess More loses some of the Self, as well, simply by telling us his story, in the constructed narrative of LiTR. I guess that's why I still enjoying reading much more than film. Thanks to everyone for all the interesting discussion and ideas so far! I've really been enjoying this campsite... Gregory Plemmons ________________________________________ From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of Wade Riddick [wriddick at usa.net] Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:11 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Slomo Etc "Do what you want" => fulfill your desire (the Mallification of the American South; the reduction of worshippers to consumers - or, perhaps, their transformation into worshippers of Mammon) >"And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". => What you are is not what you want. What you want distracts you from what you are. This is Kierkegaard's rotation and repetition at work. We are all prodigal, in this sense, because we don't know what loss is. We don't even understand what the gift is. I'm thinking here of the lessons of Epictetus on loss and jealousy in the Prodigal Son. Jealousy seems a rather useless emotion in a world destined for nothing but loss. Can we not quote the entirety of other comments? It rather rapidly fills up our inboxes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From charlescowherd at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 22:31:36 2014 From: charlescowherd at hotmail.com (Charles Cowherd) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2014 21:31:36 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 3 - "July Second" Message-ID: All, (DISCUSSION POINTS for Chapter 3 of Love in the Ruins) --> I'd be interested in everyone's commentary on the structure of LITR-- specifically the usage of flashbacks and the headings by specific "days". Why did Percy use this format? How does it advance his main purpose? I have no easy answers for this (or any of my questions) other to contrast it with the structure of The Moviegoer (formed around the religious holiday of Lent) or The Last Gentleman (a travel novel) or The Thanatos Syndrome (a mystery-adventure thriller). I realize those are all gross simplifications of Percy's intent but, particularly, with this very brief 3rd chapter of a novel set in the future the question seems relevant. --> Apologies if others have mentioned this previously, but did others catch the "integrationist Mormon President" as shades of both Romneys, George and Mitt? The book amazes with its ability to predict, but always with great subtlety. --> On a larger note, the "silent" sermon certainly speaks to Percy's continual fascination with language, signs and the meaning of words. I have been reading Louis Menand's The Metaphysical Club which feature Percy's muse Charles S. Pierce heavily. I will admit that I understand little philosophy and less semiotics so any help on that portion would be appreciated. --> The extended section where More reads the book on World War I is topical considering the 100 year anniversary of the "Great War." As a history teacher, I hope that the century mark will allow for increased study of how that conflict shaped our modern world. Again, Percy seemed to be onto that reality in a country (the United States, that is) that is overly focused on the Second World War. --> How about a present, overbearing mother figure in a Percy novel? Very different from his other works (not to mention his life). All my best and privileged to be sharing this journey with all of you. ~ Charles R. Cowherd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 13 16:47:23 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 13:47:23 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1405284443.47266.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I guess the pattern is that if a comment is on the same subject or in response to a particular thing, then the whole series of responses come added on automatically. ? "Do what you want" => fulfill your desire (the Mallification of the American South; the reduction of worshippers to consumers - or, perhaps, their transformation into worshippers of Mammon) >"And he came to himself". THUS: "Do what you are". => What you are is not what you want.? What you want distracts you from what you are. This is Kierkegaard's rotation and repetition at work. We are all prodigal, in this sense, because we don't know what loss is.? We don't even understand what the gift is.? I'm thinking here of the lessons of Epictetus on loss and jealousy in the Prodigal Son.? Jealousy seems a rather useless emotion in a world destined for nothing but loss. Can we not quote the entirety of other comments?? It rather rapidly fills up our inboxes. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 08:59:01 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 08:59:01 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Administrative: On quoting previous messages In-Reply-To: <1405284443.47266.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1405284443.47266.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53C3D415.9070003@gmail.com> Janet, Yes, I think Wade is simply asking each member if they would consider deleting past discussion not relevant to his/her own current reply where that past discussion material is automatically inserted in the body of a reply. Such a step, when taken, prevents the next reader from having to scroll through a long email. This is obviously not a requirement to befuddle oneself over, but is desireable in terms of general email etiquette. See below as a clean example. Henry Mills Percy-L Manager On 7/13/14, 4:47 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > I guess the pattern is that if a comment is on the same subject or in > response to a particular thing, then the whole series of responses > come added on automatically. > > > On 7/12/14, 1:11 AM, Wade Riddick wrote: > Can we not quote the entirety of other comments? It rather > rapidly fills > up our inboxes. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 10:35:55 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 07:35:55 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] the gift In-Reply-To: <53C15F2C.9030407@gmail.com> References: <53C15F2C.9030407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1405348555.39724.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Wow! So many good ideas in this post. I s\will steal from them in ?a future post. Just watch me. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] the gift "we don't understand what the gift is" I'm not sure who Slomo stands before and what his epistemology is? however just perhaps he is in the service of his Daemon? ( the opposite being narcissism) ?A NARCISSUS FEELS THAT THE "GIFT" COMES FROM HIMSELF. and yes we are in an age which no one sacrifices to his genius we live in a time when the adoration of the public turns men and woman into celebrities which cuts off all commerce with the guardian spirit. The celebrity trades on his gift. He doesn't sacrifice to them....... and without that sacrifice the returned GIFT? cannot be set free. ?Slomo needs an audience............(the gift must stay in motion).hahah and Dr. More knows? finally that his gifts can't be withheld. What is his gift? it is not the lapsometer.? It is the discovery of the everyday magic, the delights of the ordinary things while living under the canopy of a the mystery which ) Percy called God and? knew it was good and that Christianity and the Christ would teach us so.............( others might call it other names) For myself, I am drawn to fact that Dr. Percy knows that we humans have goodness inside of us it gets demented by our thinking.its all there for us to partake in maybe Slomo just isn't demented anymore? and what we are witness to is his learning how to crawl as an adult.....what it look like when he starts walking? I don't know. but that what makes life exciting and want to stay tuned..watch the world the story unfolds......... Lauren Stacy Berdy? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 10:42:26 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 07:42:26 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Slomo Etc In-Reply-To: <3d03dd90765e435c9d17df616539415f@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: , <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB044C853@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <3d03dd90765e435c9d17df616539415f@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1405348946.44983.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Yes, interesting guy. My first impulse when meeting him in this video and knowing his story was I have no objection to what anyone does as long as it does no harm to anyone else and as long as I don't have to pay for his right to do it. I still feel that way. But the comments here coming out of being introduced to SloMo have been so marvelous that it was worth it for that alone. More later. ________________________________ From: Karl M. Terrell To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Slomo Etc Very interesting.? Thank you.? It is sobering that Slomo, to the extent he participates in the narrative of his celebrity, loses some of his Self and self-awareness.? But so it goes.? This is the world we live in.? This is why Warhol's phrase -- 'In the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes' -- captured everyone's imagination in 1968, as we found ourselves racing mid-way up the ramp into the modern-media world we know. I think Slomo gives a pretty fair description, though, of what he's up to in the film.? I would note, first, that he doesn't condemn everything from the life he had before.? He says nothing negative about his former profession, and in fact says he enjoyed, early on, a progress which was 90% spiritual and 10% financial.? Not bad.? But then time passed, those numbers were reversing, and he found himself in despair.? He found himself having been cut loose - but, from what?? Upon first embarking into Slomo-world, he most likely wasn't able to say - The dude just likes to rollerblade.? But, I'm willing to bet he knew he was "onto something," as WP put it: "The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life.? To become aware of the search is to be onto something.? Not to be onto something is to be in despair." I too felt my 'inner Nurse Ellen,' while watching and thinking about the film.? But, I think there's more to Slomo, more to what makes him interesting, beyond the narrative of what he left behind in the middle class context. We can't all be Slomo, at least not all of us all at once in the present, and even Slomo couldn't be Slomo all the time.? At the basic level of day-to-day life, we the ordinary people, as we head past the age of "eleven and a half" -- the age of consciousness to which Slomo says he aspires -- have to begin the life process of providing for ourselves.? If we choose a family (a good choice, for most), we have to provide for others.? Perhaps a tragedy separates you from this life process of having to provide, and sends you on the search.? Or, perhaps you're simply wealthy, or perhaps you truly care not for material possessions in excess of the basic needs, and thus -- either way -- you have the means to set aside the urgent need to provide, and at least have the opportunity to examine the fact of being stuck in your everydayness, and maybe even the insight to do something about it.? Whatever may have been the case, in Dr. Kitchins' life, is interesting to think about, but is only (to me) of passing interest.? What is truly interesting to me, is this: Regardless of what may have been his catalyst, we're witness to the story of an actual life (albeit, based only on the little we can actually know) of someone who appears genuinely engaged in the search which Percy wrote about.? Percian fiction come to life, if you will.? From Slomo's few comments, we can hear that he had become (Percy's words) "sunk in the everydayness of his own life."? As Slomo puts it, he was on the track of "working himself into oblivion," was "shoveling shit," and had become "what Americans call an asshole."? He identifies the enemy, so to speak, as the "rational world," which had driven him into this state.? He was lashed by the whip, and thought he could ease the pain by writing checks to pay for the BMW, the Ferrari, the mansion, etc.? What is interesting is the large way -- the refreshingly radical, and quite dramatic way -- in which Slomo has embarked upon the search, and that he does appear to have recaptured the spiritual consciousness of an "eleven and a half year old boy."? He claims, genuinely I believe, to now "experience myself like a tip of a great iceberg of consciousness."? I would be skeptical of most who would say such a thing (I wouldn't believe my own self, if those words were to tumble from my mouth), and yet in his case it appears genuine.? It seems safe to say that he remains a thoughtful person, and has achieved a sense of? ease within this world -- a flying happiness -- which very few in this "deranged age" will ever know. "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing" -- WP.? Slomo, it appears, has at least some faint idea. Karl - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Mon Jul 14 11:38:30 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 11:38:30 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR Message-ID: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> * I apologize for not responding to the specific_excellent inquires_ that have been placed into out laps .* I am looking forward to reading the responses. If I can I will add something into the pot. ( perhaps I am not playing by the rules? I am sure......... someone will let me know) I am re reading the book electronically. I don't know how to find the specific chapter. Yes, it is a sad commentary on my technical skills. I have all the other books save for LITR which I lent out long ago....... All of this is to say that I might be a head of the reading group *again, I am sure someone will let me know.* Recently I came upon a paragraph in LITR P 119 I wanted to explore with others? I am not sure how to understand it? However, I believe that it is important in understanding and not only Dr. More as well as his creator Dr. Percy . We are in the " the little Napoleon" with Leroy and the Tom.( again in my version page 119) and I quote "Where did the terror come from? Not from the violence; violence gives release from terror. Not from Leroy's wrongness, for if he were altogether wrong , an evil man,the matter would be simple and no cause for terror. No, it came from Leroy's goodness, that he is a decent, sweet natured man who would help you if you needed help. go out of his way and bind up a strangers wounds. No, the terror comes from the goodness and what lies beneath, some fault in the soul's terrain so deep that all is well on top, evil grins like good, but something shears and tears deep down and the very ground stirs beneath one's feet." I haven't formed a question although a few are quietly bubbling up. Don Giovanni is about evil and Dr. More knows many of the arias. I believe this is part of the scented trail that Percy is leading us on away from the settled campsite of how we see the very ground that we walk on? Once again thank you for this exploration " -- Lauren Stacy Berdy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 12:13:13 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 09:13:13 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR In-Reply-To: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> References: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1405354393.66081.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I also commented on this paragraph and I think it is important. Percy has a habit of discussing vines invading, birds flying in formations, and negroes secretly having a meeting or some silliness going on in the sex clinic that everyone is taking deadly serious, except the reader, and then he will insert a big idea in the middle of the chaos and go on to more of the chaos. This paragraph offers a key idea, I think.? It is not the violence that shocks us much as the fact that it came out of a good man. I believe there is an admonition to the reader to please recognize there is a potential for evil in all of us and the only way to keep it at bay is to understand that it is possible so that we can tamp it down. If we assume we could never do bad things, then we are not on our guard to be ready to recognize our potential for evil. That is what I think Percy wants us to understand. In The Thanatos Syndrome Percy uses Father Smith big time. Father Smith says a line repeatedly, (a variant of an idea from Flannery O'Connor) "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." This is related to the paragraph you quote, I believe. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 11:38 AM Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR I apologize for not responding to the specificexcellent inquires that have been placed into out laps . I am looking forward? to reading the responses.? If I can I will add something into the pot. ( perhaps I am not playing by the rules? I am sure......... someone will let me know) I am re reading the book? electronically. I don't know how to find the specific chapter. Yes, it is a sad commentary on my technical skills. I have all the other books save for LITR which I lent out long ago....... All of this is to say that I might be a head of the reading group again, I am sure someone will let me know. Recently I came upon a paragraph in LITR? P 119 ?I? wanted to explore with others? ?I am not sure how to understand it? However, I believe that it is important in understanding and not only Dr. More as well as his creator Dr. Percy . We are in the " the little Napoleon" with Leroy and the Tom.( again in my version page 119) and I quote "Where did the terror come from? Not from the violence; violence gives release from terror. Not from Leroy's wrongness, for if he were altogether wrong , an evil man,the matter would be simple and no cause for terror. No, it came from Leroy's goodness, that he is a decent, sweet natured man who would help you if you needed help. go out of his way and bind up a strangers wounds. No, the terror comes from the goodness and what lies beneath, some fault in the soul's terrain so deep that all is well on top, evil grins like good, but something shears and tears deep down and the very ground stirs beneath one's feet." I haven't formed a question although a few are quietly bubbling up. Don Giovanni is about evil and Dr. More knows many of the arias. I believe this is part of the scented trail that Percy is leading us on away from the? settled campsite of how we see the very ground that we walk on? Once again thank you for this exploration ?? " -- Lauren Stacy Berdy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 14 15:09:55 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 12:09:55 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] July Second - in order of the pages I make note of what grabbed my attention along the way Message-ID: <1405364995.25302.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On the first page of this chapter we get again light reflecting off of a white jacket and off of grits. I keep wondering what these repetitions of light coming off of things represents. Later Max's pens, flashlight and reflex hammer glitter like diamonds in his vest pocket. ?And these examples appear all over the writing. ?Perhaps I got it from one of the commenters who said it is important to look for heavenly glory in ordinary things, and the light may be the light from heaven.? I found it funny that while Tom's mother wants to bring him back to the church, she is busy analyzing those astrological charts. And she does not like that Roman priest, Father Smith. The factionalism that is threatening to upend equilibrium is even happening in the church. ?She is earth bound, selling real estate. I wondered if Percy inserted the phrase in passing "As I Lay Dying" intentionally? Anyone know? ?In the dedication for his excellent memoir, Learning to Die in Miami, Carlos Eire named The Little Infant Jesus of Prague, whom he called a fellow exile. This statue is named in one of the pages of this section but I can't tell you which page because my numbers are not the same as others'. A tendril winds around his mother's antique table - I thought to myself - future ruins. Tom is changeable. One word and his attention goes to another of the ladies which are his current obsessions. The scene of Tom with one foot in and one foot out ready to make his escape from the church is so funny and I expect will be remembered in some way later. Lots of seemingly disconnected things will be explained later. As Father Smith talks about Lazarus, I get the feeling that he and the rest of us interpret things to please our own versions of truth. In a later page Tom muses parenthetically ("strange: no matter what one says, no matter how monstrous, garbled, unfittable, whoever hears it will somehow make it fit.") And I wondered if Percy was giving the reader a gentle nudge to make us aware of it when we do that as we read his novels, making things fit our own narratives and not allowing the author to write the story for us or going with HIS flow. The description of the parishioners as they enter Father Smith's church makes them sound like a strange lot. What is going on? They look to Tom like strays and stragglers after a battle. Tom wonders if he is one of them. Two cute things on one page - (As Tom makes his escape from the church) "Goodbye, Pius XII, Hello Lola Baby, big lovely cellist." and "It seemed he had behaved oddly at the ten o'clock mass and created consternation among the faithful." Phrases like that amuse me. Here's another one - "This was before Father Kev Kevin married Sister Magdalene and took charge of the vaginal computer in Love." Try to explain that sentence out of context to anyone who has not read this book.? I also liked the probable pun when Father Rinaldo, in his bed at the asylum, had eyes looking neither right nor left. In the dialogue between Max and Tom, Tom says death is winning and life is losing. And he tells Max that Max is safer than most because he doesn't know any better. He even tells Max that you doctors are doing the will of G-d even if you don't believe in him. I wonder what Slomo would say about that. Father Smith suggests to Tom that he move into his mother's house. Shades of the earlier warning that Tom would be safe if he moved there. What does this mean? Hmmmm. We were asked to explain the structure of the novel and what is the purpose of the way the chapters go?? I would suggest we trust our author as he takes us on his journey and not try to outguess him or think ahead. I would recommend to those ambitious enough, before you read July Third, that you reread carefully the last two pages of this section beginning with "Here's the riddle...". ?You won't know anything more than you now know, but you will get an idea of Percy's game. Generally his novels have confusion and fun and creative detours and you don't know what it is all leading to. More later.... That's my two cents on this section. Janet Cantor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Mon Jul 14 17:13:01 2014 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 21:13:01 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Section 3, LITR Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB044F3C0@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Regarding Charles's discussions about structure, I found them interesting to ponder, particularly in thinking about how the pieces of novels are put together--in which order things happen, or reveal. Traditionally, many novels have a climax at the middle, followed by a secondary climax, then resolution. This section is the shortest, however, and seems relatively void of tension or conflict, compared to the other sections so far, and clearly follows the campsite model more closely than the trail. Percy's novels, for me, have never been about plot (and this seems to pester a lot of non-Percy fans) but his beautiful prose and ideas have always been enough to pedal the flywheel to keep me suspended. Yet, on reading it the second time, I see some subtle structural things at play. We move quickly from the external chaos of the early Seventies into the seemingly more organized chaos of Tom's mind and modern psychiatry. The narrative unfolds in flashback, although linear. We know where we start, but we're not sure how we're going to find ourselves exactly back at the Howard Johnson's when we're through, and I think that propels me along. I'm now in the Section Four, and more disturbed by the unreliable narrator than ever, which actually leads me to wonder if Tom's trip to church with his mother actually happened, or if perhaps it was a memory--I almost wondered if he if was given a pass to leave the unit to attend church and he's been hospitalized all along. It was fairly common at the time for patients to be granted a pass to leave the unit with family (although he never hints at this). But whose grace does Tom really have at this point but his mother? "We love those who know the worst of us and don't turn their faces away." I'd be curious to hear what others think. I was only six years old when this was first published, and I'm wondering what influence, if any, other novels may have had (Kesey's One Few Over the Cuckoo's Nest and Plath's Bell Jar come to mind--both works I assume he would have been familiar with, by then). Gregory Plemmons, MD CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium. ________________________________ ________________________________ * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Mon Jul 14 23:24:13 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 22:24:13 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Looking for a leader for "July Fourth" Message-ID: We still need someone to take the lead for the "July Fourth" section -- post date would be July 27/28. Anyone? Rhonda Sent from my iPad From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Tue Jul 15 00:01:47 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 23:01:47 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 3 - "July Second" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Charles, list, Good call on the Romney thing: I'm sure you all have seen this photo of the elder Romney, but it was worth the space any way, just in light of Charles comment. What strikes me structurally in this novel is the compression of time. The headings help keep that in focus with the flashbacks to Tom's hospitalization, his marriage, etc. As for the silence, I wonder if Wittgenstein or Max Picard might not be more illuminating to the discussion than Peirce. I'm not an expert on Peirce but I don't recall him doing much with silence as a sign. Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:31 PM, "Charles Cowherd" wrote: > > All, > (DISCUSSION POINTS for Chapter 3 of Love in the Ruins) > ? I'd be interested in everyone's commentary on the structure of LITR-- specifically the usage of flashbacks and the headings by specific "days". Why did Percy use this format? How does it advance his main purpose? I have no easy answers for this (or any of my questions) other to contrast it with the structure of The Moviegoer (formed around the religious holiday of Lent) or The Last Gentleman (a travel novel) or The Thanatos Syndrome (a mystery-adventure thriller). I realize those are all gross simplifications of Percy's intent but, particularly, with this very brief 3rd chapter of a novel set in the future the question seems relevant. > ? Apologies if others have mentioned this previously, but did others catch the "integrationist Mormon President" as shades of both Romneys, George and Mitt? The book amazes with its ability to predict, but always with great subtlety. > > ? On a larger note, the "silent" sermon certainly speaks to Percy's continual fascination with language, signs and the meaning of words. I have been reading Louis Menand's The Metaphysical Club which feature Percy's muse Charles S. Pierce heavily. I will admit that I understand little philosophy and less semiotics so any help on that portion would be appreciated. > ? The extended section where More reads the book on World War I is topical considering the 100 year anniversary of the ?Great War.? As a history teacher, I hope that the century mark will allow for increased study of how that conflict shaped our modern world. Again, Percy seemed to be onto that reality in a country (the United States, that is) that is overly focused on the Second World War. > ? How about a present, overbearing mother figure in a Percy novel? Very different from his other works (not to mention his life). > > All my best and privileged to be sharing this journey with all of you. > ~ Charles R. Cowherd -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 200704 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 10:43:16 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 10:43:16 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR In-Reply-To: <1405426006.34247.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> <1405426006.34247.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53C53E04.50206@gmail.com> Yes, Janet I saw your comments. ( once again I am apologizing to the group that I am off the on the side of the road and not onto the particular thread/ tangent ) however, I mean well.................. " a fault in the soul's terrain" this is the phase that I had trouble with.......... and your explanation or examples didn't get me over to the to the other bank . Intellectual and insightful explanations and other examples from Dr. Percy writings just won't do here or father Smith in Thanatos etc. He was and we are still trying to figure out how a persons intentions change? Leroy is his kind of example. Leroy has different meanings for different things that are cast in front of him. "But the terror comes from his goodness and lies underneath." and here is the big problem. How do you catch yourself thinking about your actions? I "mean to do something means I intend to do it...... BUT something happens the self trips over itself it gets caught up in conditoning. ( runaway loop) Leroy has a previous perception about black people.....his choices are determined by the totality of significance at that moment. Percy says that ordinary he is good goodness resides inside of him But then what happens in another moment he abstracts and shifts to thought? *How does the bad intention get modified???????????????????????????* the point is that one acts thru intention and there is no seperation of the mental and the psychical. He would fix a tire for Tom but not for "bantus" "the other" you see I believe with all my heart that Percy was trying to get at *how we **make new meaning*s..........the brain holds on to the old meanings,how does the shift happen? its not about choice it happens with perception and realization and that changes the reality..........social change requires a different totally accepted meaning. Like autocracy to democracy. Meanings become fixed hence all the /tribes/ in the book. It's meaningless conflict " some fault in the soul's terrrain?????" I don't believe so I often wonder if Percy did? I am sorry that this is messy with thoughts but it is a messy conscientiousness isn't it? Lauren Stacy Berdy (614) 314-4162 cell (754) 816-7508 Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com LaurenBrdy at aol.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com On 7/15/2014 8:06 AM, janetcantor37 at yahoo.com wrote: > Lauren, > Did you see my comments on this section? It answers your question > about where the terror came from paragraph. > Did that help you? > Janet > > * > I apologize for not responding to the specific_excellent inquires_ > that have been placed into out laps .* I am looking forward to > reading the responses. > If I can I will add something into the pot. ( perhaps I am not playing > by the rules? I am sure......... someone will let me know) > > I am re reading the book electronically. > > I don't know how to find the specific chapter. Yes, it is a sad > commentary on my technical skills. I have all the other books save for > LITR which I lent out long ago....... > All of this is to say that I might be a head of the reading group > *again, I am sure someone will let me know.* > > Recently I came upon a paragraph in LITR P 119 > I wanted to explore with others? > I am not sure how to understand it? > However, I believe that it is important in understanding and not only > Dr. More as well as his creator Dr. Percy . > > > We are in the " the little Napoleon" with Leroy and the Tom.( again in > my version page 119) > > and I quote > "Where did the terror come from? Not from the violence; violence gives > release from terror. Not from Leroy's wrongness, for if he were > altogether wrong , an evil man,the matter would be simple and no cause > for terror. No, it came from Leroy's goodness, that he is a decent, > sweet natured man who would help you if you needed help. go out of his > way and bind up a strangers wounds. No, the terror comes from the > goodness and what lies beneath, some fault in the soul's terrain so > deep that all is well on top, evil grins like good, but something > shears and tears deep down and the very ground stirs beneath one's feet." > > I haven't formed a question although a few are quietly bubbling up. > Don Giovanni is about evil and Dr. More knows many of the arias. > I believe this is part of the scented trail that Percy is leading us > on away from the settled campsite of how we see the very ground that > we walk on? > > Once again thank you for this exploration > > > > > > > > > " > > > > -- > Lauren Stacy Berdy > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 15 11:09:20 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 08:09:20 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR In-Reply-To: <53C53E04.50206@gmail.com> References: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> <1405426006.34247.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53C53E04.50206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1405436960.33415.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I quite understand your confusion in all this. It is not cut and dried. Perhaps that is why so many like SloMo because he seems to have all the answers. But Percy understands that it is not easy. He went through many bouts of alcoholism and lapsing from his Catholicism and he finally realized, of course he was also older and mellowed, perhaps, that he had to go cold sober and go back To his Bunt and reach for G-d again. The thing is so often what I consider good is what my friends do not. Look how I was attacked merely for my comment on America being a shining country to the world.? But I try to stress to people that if we say, for example, Nazis are bad, without understanding that in the proper circumstances or with proper training or motivation, we could each easily do very bad things, and it is only that realization that can help us not to do them, I am met with blank stares. That is why I don't like Athol Fugard. He makes his audience proud of itself for its good morals. I prefer the play Good by C.P. Taylor, I think, which makes us identify with the Nazis - now THAT was scary. And I think a bit what Percy was getting at. I am rambling too. I don't know anything about semiotics and I think that is what you are referring to when ?you talk about Percy wanting to know how we think or how our intentions change. I know I watched my liberal friends change from reasonable people I disagreed with and who disagreed with me but we could have discussions, to angry intolerable, intolerant disagreeable people after the 2000 election. We cannot quietly say one word to each other. I am stunned at the change in them. And I would love to know how it happened so easily. People who loved Israel now find fault with things they would have been furious with others who found these faults before. (baD syntax ?but...) I have seen people change from nice to ugly and I hate it. They are influenced by blogs to change in horrid ways. Of course that is what they think of me. I believe Percy is trying to get us to understand in the end that with all the conflict and evil, there is a way for each of us. His excesses lead to calm in each novel. I can't help you because I don't know philosophy or scholarship. I am just a reader. But I love Percy so there must be something he is saying to me. I don't mind going on in this vein unless you think it is fruitless. Janet ________________________________ From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR Yes, Janet I saw your comments. ( once again I am apologizing to the group that I am off the on the side of the road? and not onto the particular thread/ tangent ) however, I mean well.................. " a fault in the soul's terrain" this is the phase that I had trouble with.......... and your explanation or examples didn't get me over to the to the other bank . Intellectual and insightful explanations and other examples from Dr. Percy writings just won't do here or father Smith in Thanatos? etc. He was and we are still trying to figure out how a persons intentions change? Leroy is his kind of example. Leroy has different meanings for different things that are cast in front of him. "But the terror comes from his goodness? and lies underneath." and here is the big problem. How do you catch yourself thinking about your actions? I "mean to do something means I intend to do it...... BUT something happens the self trips over itself it gets caught up in? conditoning. ( runaway loop) Leroy has a previous perception about black people.....his choices are determined by the totality of significance? at that moment. Percy says that ordinary he is good goodness resides inside of him But then what happens in another moment he abstracts and shifts to thought?? How does the bad intention get modified??????????????????????????? the point is that one acts thru intention and there is no seperation of the mental and the psychical. He would fix a tire for Tom but not for "bantus" "the other" you see I believe with all my heart that Percy was trying to get at how we make new meanings..........the brain holds on to the old meanings,how does the shift happen? its not about choice it happens with perception and realization and that changes the reality..........social change requires a different totally accepted meaning. Like autocracy to democracy. Meanings become fixed hence all the tribes in the book. It's meaningless conflict " some fault in the soul's terrrain?????"? I don't believe so I often wonder if Percy did? I am sorry that this is messy with thoughts but it is a messy conscientiousness isn't it? Lauren Stacy Berdy (614) 314-4162 cell (754) 816-7508 Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com LaurenBrdy at aol.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com On 7/15/2014 8:06 AM, janetcantor37 at yahoo.com wrote: Lauren, >Did you see my comments on this section? It answers your question about where the terror came from paragraph. >Did that help you? >Janet > > > >I apologize for not responding to the specificexcellent inquires that have been placed into out laps . I am looking forward? to reading the responses.? >If I can I will add something into the pot. ( perhaps I am not playing by the rules? I am sure......... someone will let me know) > >I am re reading the book? electronically. > >I don't know how to find the specific chapter. Yes, it is a sad commentary on my technical skills. I have all the other books save for LITR which I lent out long ago....... >All of this is to say that I might be a head of the reading group >again, I am sure someone will let me know. > >Recently I came upon a paragraph in LITR? P 119 >?I? wanted to explore with others? >?I am not sure how to understand it? >However, I believe that it is important in understanding and not only Dr. More as well as his creator Dr. Percy . > > >We are in the " the little Napoleon" with Leroy and the Tom.( again in my version page 119) > >and I quote >"Where did the terror come from? Not from the violence; violence gives release from terror. Not from Leroy's wrongness, for if he were altogether wrong , an evil man,the matter would be simple and no cause for terror. No, it came from Leroy's goodness, that he is a decent, sweet natured man who would help you if you needed help. go out of his way and bind up a strangers wounds. No, the terror comes from the goodness and what lies beneath, some fault in the soul's terrain so deep that all is well on top, evil grins like good, but something shears and tears deep down and the very ground stirs beneath one's feet." > >I haven't formed a question although a few are quietly bubbling up. Don Giovanni is about evil and Dr. More knows many of the arias. >I believe this is part of the scented trail that Percy is leading us on away from the? settled campsite of how we see the very ground that we walk on? > >Once again thank you for this exploration > > > > > > >?? > >" > > > > >-- Lauren Stacy Berdy >* Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >* Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >* Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > >* Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kfwacw at centurylink.net Tue Jul 15 11:20:57 2014 From: kfwacw at centurylink.net (Ken Wilson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:20:57 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR In-Reply-To: <1405436960.33415.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> <1405426006.34247.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><53C53E04.50206@gmail.com> <1405436960.33415.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54D745C4FA984581BE90C3623F69D130@KenPC> Janet wrote: > But Percy understands that it is not easy. He went through many bouts of alcoholism and lapsing from his Catholicism and he finally realized, of course he was also older and mellowed, perhaps, that he had to go cold sober and go back To his Bunt and reach for G-d again. Is this substantiated? I?ve read the Tolson bio and skimmed the Samway, and I only remember that he drank too much at times (due to depression, if I remember correctly), not that he ever came to consider himself an alocholic, or that he ever quit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Tue Jul 15 11:36:09 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:36:09 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR In-Reply-To: <1405436960.33415.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <53C3F976.3070903@gmail.com> <1405426006.34247.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53C53E04.50206@gmail.com> <1405436960.33415.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53C54A69.60509@gmail.com> I will just point out that ego is just a function of the mind. the important thing is the self.....which is the totality of the function of mind.... .I write this thought with you and your /friends/ in mind. the ego established the person within the environment it is limited.the self is limited and limiting..... The "I" leaves a sort of question mark about where you are coming from. in true communication it would come from pure essence. we are just human.and so, we miss the mark.......in a sense all egoistic communication is less than real., less than true *there has to be an awareness of communion*...........we are all in this thing together.......... that is the work! Everything is not here for the ego to eat. I sit here at the center of the universe of MY PERCEPTIONS says the ego. religion tries to counterbalance that( ?).......we have to realize that we are living as particulars...........and sadly, not as wholes.......... On 7/15/2014 11:09 AM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > I quite understand your confusion in all this. It is not cut and > dried. Perhaps that is why so many like SloMo because he seems to have > all the answers. But Percy understands that it is not easy. He went > through many bouts of alcoholism and lapsing from his Catholicism and > he finally realized, of course he was also older and mellowed, > perhaps, that he had to go cold sober and go back To his Bunt and > reach for G-d again. > The thing is so often what I consider good is what my friends do not. > Look how I was attacked merely for my comment on America being a > shining country to the world. > But I try to stress to people that if we say, for example, Nazis are > bad, without understanding that in the proper circumstances or with > proper training or motivation, we could each easily do very bad > things, and it is only that realization that can help us not to do > them, I am met with blank stares. That is why I don't like Athol > Fugard. He makes his audience proud of itself for its good morals. I > prefer the play Good by C.P. Taylor, I think, which makes us identify > with the Nazis - now THAT was scary. And I think a bit what Percy was > getting at. > I am rambling too. I don't know anything about semiotics and I think > that is what you are referring to when you talk about Percy wanting > to know how we think or how our intentions change. I know I watched my > liberal friends change from reasonable people I disagreed with and who > disagreed with me but we could have discussions, to angry intolerable, > intolerant disagreeable people after the 2000 election. We cannot > quietly say one word to each other. I am stunned at the change in > them. And I would love to know how it happened so easily. People who > loved Israel now find fault with things they would have been furious > with others who found these faults before. (baD syntax but...) I have > seen people change from nice to ugly and I hate it. They are > influenced by blogs to change in horrid ways. Of course that is what > they think of me. > I believe Percy is trying to get us to understand in the end that with > all the conflict and evil, there is a way for each of us. His excesses > lead to calm in each novel. > I can't help you because I don't know philosophy or scholarship. I am > just a reader. > But I love Percy so there must be something he is saying to me. > I don't mind going on in this vein unless you think it is fruitless. > Janet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Lauren Stacy Berdy > *To:* > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 15, 2014 10:43 AM > *Subject:* Re: [percy-l] inquiry P 119 LITR > > Yes, Janet I saw your comments. > ( once again I am apologizing to the group that I am off the on the > side of the road and not onto the particular thread/ tangent ) > however, I mean well.................. > > " a fault in the soul's terrain" > this is the phase that I had trouble with.......... > and your explanation or examples didn't get me over to the to the > other bank . > Intellectual and insightful explanations and other examples from Dr. > Percy writings just won't do here or father Smith in Thanatos etc. > > He was and we are still trying to figure out how a persons intentions > change? > > Leroy is his kind of example. Leroy has different meanings for > different things that are cast in front of him. > "But the terror comes from his goodness and lies underneath." > and here is the big problem. > How do you catch yourself thinking about your actions? > I "mean to do something means I intend to do it...... BUT something > happens the self trips over itself it gets caught up in conditoning. > ( runaway loop) > Leroy has a previous perception about black people.....his choices are > determined by the totality of significance at that moment. > Percy says that ordinary he is good goodness resides inside of him > But then what happens in another moment he abstracts and shifts to > thought? *How does the bad intention get > modified???????????????????????????* > the point is that one acts thru intention and there is no seperation > of the mental and the psychical. He would fix a tire for Tom but not > for "bantus" "the other" > > you see I believe with all my heart that Percy was trying to get at > *how we **make new meaning*s..........the brain holds on to the old > meanings,how does the shift happen? > its not about choice it happens with perception and realization and > that changes the reality..........social change requires a different > totally accepted meaning. Like autocracy to democracy. Meanings become > fixed hence all the /tribes/ in the book. It's meaningless conflict > > " some fault in the soul's terrrain?????" I don't believe so I often > wonder if Percy did? > > I am sorry that this is messy with thoughts but it is a messy > conscientiousness isn't it? > > > Lauren Stacy Berdy > (614) 314-4162 cell > (754) 816-7508 > Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com > LaurenBrdy at aol.com > > LaurenStacyBerdy.com > On 7/15/2014 8:06 AM, janetcantor37 at yahoo.com > wrote: > > >> Lauren, >> Did you see my comments on this section? It answers your question >> about where the terror came from paragraph. >> Did that help you? >> Janet >> >> * >> I apologize for not responding to the specific_excellent inquires_ >> that have been placed into out laps .* I am looking forward to >> reading the responses. >> If I can I will add something into the pot. ( perhaps I am not >> playing by the rules? I am sure......... someone will let me know) >> >> I am re reading the book electronically. >> >> I don't know how to find the specific chapter. Yes, it is a sad >> commentary on my technical skills. I have all the other books save >> for LITR which I lent out long ago....... >> All of this is to say that I might be a head of the reading group >> *again, I am sure someone will let me know.* >> >> Recently I came upon a paragraph in LITR P 119 >> I wanted to explore with others? >> I am not sure how to understand it? >> However, I believe that it is important in understanding and not only >> Dr. More as well as his creator Dr. Percy . >> >> >> We are in the " the little Napoleon" with Leroy and the Tom.( again >> in my version page 119) >> >> and I quote >> "Where did the terror come from? Not from the violence; violence >> gives release from terror. Not from Leroy's wrongness, for if he were >> altogether wrong , an evil man,the matter would be simple and no >> cause for terror. No, it came from Leroy's goodness, that he is a >> decent, sweet natured man who would help you if you needed help. go >> out of his way and bind up a strangers wounds. No, the terror comes >> from the goodness and what lies beneath, some fault in the soul's >> terrain so deep that all is well on top, evil grins like good, but >> something shears and tears deep down and the very ground stirs >> beneath one's feet." >> >> I haven't formed a question although a few are quietly bubbling up. >> Don Giovanni is about evil and Dr. More knows many of the arias. >> I believe this is part of the scented trail that Percy is leading us >> on away from the settled campsite of how we see the very ground that >> we walk on? >> >> Once again thank you for this exploration >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> " >> >> >> >> -- >> Lauren Stacy Berdy >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Mon Jul 21 18:54:19 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:54:19 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR slow read Message-ID: I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of the novel this week. In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a discussion leader's post? Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August. Rhonda Sent from my iPad From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Mon Jul 21 21:09:36 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:09:36 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read Message-ID: My mistake, Folks, Patrick Lynch will be leading us off next week on the July 4th section. His initial message somehow was lost in the cosmos, but he was patient enough to resend! Rhonda Sent from my iPad From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Mon Jul 21 23:56:20 2014 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 03:56:20 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] [External] LITR slow read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Hi, y'all, Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section: Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this time on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play within a play...) I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this section. What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect here. Such amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational settings. How much of what we consider education is entertainment, and vice versa? Does it matter? Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be quite a sympathetic character? The public inquisition to which he is subjected here is quite humiliating, and yet while Tom initially seems sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation and mutism, how much is done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much is done for spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole guise of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the Game? (and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?) At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope? At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace? Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine? self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly, Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier, the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with? Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance ?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than ever?the center cannot hold... Greg CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium. ________________________________________ From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL [rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 5:54 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [External] [percy-l] LITR slow read I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of the novel this week. In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a discussion leader's post? Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August. Rhonda Sent from my iPad * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wppdirector at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 01:27:12 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 01:27:12 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53CDF630.1080707@gmail.com> Ah, yes, Rhonda, to me sometimes the randomness (seeming?) of the cosmos will cast a message in a bottle back upon our shore. All of us on the collective shore of Percy-L thank you, and Patrick forthcoming, for continuing to lead us into Percy's wonderful world of strange signposts in their insights about the enduring human search for transcendent meaning beyond the "vacuous self," the ghost in the machine that inhabits each. For me, as another prominent role he occupies, Percy is a writer who "speaks" to us in a novel form about an age when we more often than not are told that only the empirical or the material matters as a reigning worldview. Of course, one need only look as far as Percy's essay, "Culture: The Antinomy of the Scientific Method," in Message in the Bottle to see him initiate semiotic trouble there, with such poignant Percy-esque questions as: "who is studying the scientists?". I hope you will join me in a toast of bourbon to the good Doctor Percy and the enjoyable read of LiTR we continue. Despite the sometimes political differences that jaunt across our list, we all share in our community a common appreciation for Percy's work. I say let that appreciation continue, even when proverbially the sand trap beckons. Best, Henry On 7/21/14, 9:09 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > My mistake, Folks, > > Patrick Lynch will be leading us off next week on the July 4th section. His initial message somehow was lost in the cosmos, but he was patient enough to resend! > > Rhonda > > Sent from my iPad > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 12:16:55 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:16:55 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] [External] LITR slow read In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: <53CE8E77.1080506@gmail.com> as usual our diagnostician/author was prescient in so many ways the "pit" used as an educational setting? yes, Thomas Eakins has a beautiful painting rendering of others ( students) looking onto the surgical pit below. The pit is an excellent way to focus in and center ones attention and discipline gaze. (There is quiet in the room no booing or cheering) However Dr. Percy isn't using the pit like that..........no he tweaks it to show us that our minds are no longer habituated to attention. we are in the entertainment arena now. Huxley knew it in "Brave New World" didn't he? Huxley knew we have an enormous appetite for distractions. "We will love what ruins us."he said. Back to the pit. Gregory uses the word "entertainment", I think that this is the whole point of students and pit. As we all know and as The Doctor knew we are all dumbing down. Everything is fodder for entertainment, " In Amusing ourselves to death" Neil Postman wrote that Huxley got it right and I think the Doctor knew it and saw it and used it. Show business dominates the culture and the serious business of learning has been turned into entertainment. The fallacy for the ultimate truth of a proposition does not depend on content but on who is speaking it and getting the most cheers? I adore cranky Mr. Ives. He is pissing ( pooping) on everyone from a high height. He is on to them and Tom knows it. I believe Tom is on to all of it too as it unfolds yet plays his part. Maybe he also likes being on stage? As I have written elsewhere that's a big part of us and our problems. students too now think that learning should be fun. Students are now passive with no autonomy , sense of history or maturity. Their lessons aren't as much fun as television. maybe too the "pit" is a form of television like "Kitchen stadium" ( Iron Chef)? they are the future and Percy was pointing this out. about Tom and "grace" what comes up for me is not "grace" but a coming back into one ownself. After being away and drinking duck eggs and early times. He gets back to the business of living and being and what unfolds is just that. For me he got the gift of insight. Our very own precious human gift that each of us owns. (I also love that this thought arrives in his head as he is descending .........) I believe Mr. Ives can go fourth and live out his life in his lost cove or what ever.......... He isn't distracted!! (he might be displaced) The others are distracted playing their roles. He got out alive and I would add God help us if we have to be granted life according to a "Big brother." I recommend Aldous Huxleys"Brave new World" "people will love their oppression and the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance". Thank you Gregory for all your additional news about Tennessee. it seems to have a lot of flavor. I hear the BBQ is pretty good too but you don't hear about it in the NYTS. Good for them. Thank you, " Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/21/2014 11:56 PM, Plemmons, Gregory wrote: > Hi, y'all, > > Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section: > > Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this time on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play within a play...) > > I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this section. What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect here. Such amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational settings. How much of what we consider education is entertainment, and vice versa? Does it matter? Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be quite a sympathetic character? The public inquisition to which he is subjected here is quite humiliating, and yet while Tom initially seems sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation and mutism, how much is done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much is done for spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole guise of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the Game? (and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?) > > At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope? > > At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace? > > Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine? self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly, Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier, the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with? > > Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance ?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than ever?the center cannot hold... > > Greg > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium. > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL [rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 5:54 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [External] [percy-l] LITR slow read > > I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of the novel this week. > > In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a discussion leader's post? > > Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August. > > Rhonda > > Sent from my iPad > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From charlescowherd at hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 15:09:16 2014 From: charlescowherd at hotmail.com (Charles Cowherd) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:09:16 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] The Pit Message-ID: One note about the Pit mentioned in Greg's comments. Percy's Alma Mater, UNC- Chapel Hill, indeed has a "Pit" that is located at the center of the campus, near the Undergraduate library and the main academic buildings. My wife is a graduate (although much later than Percy) of the School and remarked that there is a saying that "If you stay at the Pit all day, you will see every undergraduate currently enrolled at the school." My guess is that the current version is toned down obviously from the area of dissent that college campuses were known for during the writing of LITR. However, if you go to the Pit at UNC, you will notice that all the surrounding buildings have very limited windows, if at all. This was, of course, to discourage bombs, etc. from being thrown in. My guess is that Percy had a more contentious, physically deeper (UNC's pit is only 6 or so feet deep) area in mind. ~ Charles -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:17 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 26 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. LITR slow read (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 2. LITR Slow Read (RHONDA MCDONNELL) 3. Re: [External] LITR slow read (Plemmons, Gregory) 4. Re: LITR Slow Read (Henry Mills) 5. Re: [External] LITR slow read (Lauren Stacy Berdy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 17:54:19 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: [percy-l] LITR slow read Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of the novel this week. In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a discussion leader's post? Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August. Rhonda Sent from my iPad ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:09:36 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My mistake, Folks, Patrick Lynch will be leading us off next week on the July 4th section. His initial message somehow was lost in the cosmos, but he was patient enough to resend! Rhonda Sent from my iPad ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 03:56:20 +0000 From: "Plemmons, Gregory" To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] LITR slow read Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE at ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Hi, y'all, Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section: Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this time on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play within a play...) I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this section. What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect here. Such amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational settings. How much of what we consider education is entertainment, and vice versa? Does it matter? Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be quite a sympathetic character? The public inquisition to which he is subjected here is quite humiliating, and yet while Tom initially seems sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation and mutism, how much is done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much is done for spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole guise of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the Game? (and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?) At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope? At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace? Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine? self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly, Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier, the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with? Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance ?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than ever?the center cannot hold... Greg CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium. ________________________________________ From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL [rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 5:54 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [External] [percy-l] LITR slow read I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of the novel this week. In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a discussion leader's post? Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August. Rhonda Sent from my iPad * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 01:27:12 -0400 From: Henry Mills To: Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org:Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read Message-ID: <53CDF630.1080707 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ah, yes, Rhonda, to me sometimes the randomness (seeming?) of the cosmos will cast a message in a bottle back upon our shore. All of us on the collective shore of Percy-L thank you, and Patrick forthcoming, for continuing to lead us into Percy's wonderful world of strange signposts in their insights about the enduring human search for transcendent meaning beyond the "vacuous self," the ghost in the machine that inhabits each. For me, as another prominent role he occupies, Percy is a writer who "speaks" to us in a novel form about an age when we more often than not are told that only the empirical or the material matters as a reigning worldview. Of course, one need only look as far as Percy's essay, "Culture: The Antinomy of the Scientific Method," in Message in the Bottle to see him initiate semiotic trouble there, with such poignant Percy-esque questions as: "who is studying the scientists?". I hope you will join me in a toast of bourbon to the good Doctor Percy and the enjoyable read of LiTR we continue. Despite the sometimes political differences that jaunt across our list, we all share in our community a common appreciation for Percy's work. I say let that appreciation continue, even when proverbially the sand trap beckons. Best, Henry On 7/21/14, 9:09 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > My mistake, Folks, > > Patrick Lynch will be leading us off next week on the July 4th section. His initial message somehow was lost in the cosmos, but he was patient enough to resend! > > Rhonda > > Sent from my iPad > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 12:16:55 -0400 From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org:Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] LITR slow read Message-ID: <53CE8E77.1080506 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed as usual our diagnostician/author was prescient in so many ways the "pit" used as an educational setting? yes, Thomas Eakins has a beautiful painting rendering of others ( students) looking onto the surgical pit below. The pit is an excellent way to focus in and center ones attention and discipline gaze. (There is quiet in the room no booing or cheering) However Dr. Percy isn't using the pit like that..........no he tweaks it to show us that our minds are no longer habituated to attention. we are in the entertainment arena now. Huxley knew it in "Brave New World" didn't he? Huxley knew we have an enormous appetite for distractions. "We will love what ruins us."he said. Back to the pit. Gregory uses the word "entertainment", I think that this is the whole point of students and pit. As we all know and as The Doctor knew we are all dumbing down. Everything is fodder for entertainment, " In Amusing ourselves to death" Neil Postman wrote that Huxley got it right and I think the Doctor knew it and saw it and used it. Show business dominates the culture and the serious business of learning has been turned into entertainment. The fallacy for the ultimate truth of a proposition does not depend on content but on who is speaking it and getting the most cheers? I adore cranky Mr. Ives. He is pissing ( pooping) on everyone from a high height. He is on to them and Tom knows it. I believe Tom is on to all of it too as it unfolds yet plays his part. Maybe he also likes being on stage? As I have written elsewhere that's a big part of us and our problems. students too now think that learning should be fun. Students are now passive with no autonomy , sense of history or maturity. Their lessons aren't as much fun as television. maybe too the "pit" is a form of television like "Kitchen stadium" ( Iron Chef)? they are the future and Percy was pointing this out. about Tom and "grace" what comes up for me is not "grace" but a coming back into one ownself. After being away and drinking duck eggs and early times. He gets back to the business of living and being and what unfolds is just that. For me he got the gift of insight. Our very own precious human gift that each of us owns. (I also love that this thought arrives in his head as he is descending .........) I believe Mr. Ives can go fourth and live out his life in his lost cove or what ever.......... He isn't distracted!! (he might be displaced) The others are distracted playing their roles. He got out alive and I would add God help us if we have to be granted life according to a "Big brother." I recommend Aldous Huxleys"Brave new World" "people will love their oppression and the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance". Thank you Gregory for all your additional news about Tennessee. it seems to have a lot of flavor. I hear the BBQ is pretty good too but you don't hear about it in the NYTS. Good for them. Thank you, " Lauren Stacy Berdy On 7/21/2014 11:56 PM, Plemmons, Gregory wrote: > Hi, y'all, > > Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section: > > Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the > confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly > uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this > time on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play > within a play...) > > I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this > section. What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect > here. Such amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational > settings. How much of what we consider education is entertainment, and > vice versa? Does it matter? Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be > quite a sympathetic character? The public inquisition to which he is > subjected here is quite humiliating, and yet while Tom initially seems > sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation and mutism, how much is > done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much is done for > spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole guise > of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant > satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at > times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the > Game? (and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?) > > At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope? > > At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace? > > Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine? self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly, Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier, the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with? > > Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance ?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than ever?the center cannot hold... > > Greg > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete the contents of this message without disclosing the contents to anyone, using them for any purpose, or storing or copying the information on any medium. > > > > ________________________________________ > From: Percy-L [percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] on behalf of RHONDA > MCDONNELL [rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com] > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 5:54 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [External] [percy-l] LITR slow read > > I'm looking forward to reading Greg's thoughts on the July 3rd section of the novel this week. > > In the mean time, no one has stepped forward for the July 4th section, so why don't we all just post whatever random thoughts we might be having on that section next week (the last week of July), without waiting for a discussion leader's post? > > Janet will wrap the novel up during the first full week of August. > > Rhonda > > Sent from my iPad > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 108, Issue 26 **************************************** From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 22 17:32:42 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:32:42 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] July Third Love in the Ruins Message-ID: <1406064762.38972.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> What wonderful comments so far on this section! I particularly appreciated Greg's last paragraph about Tennessee.? July Second ends with Tom wondering who is more alive, The Frenchman now who chooses life and who will die for nothing or the Frenchman of the First World War who chose to die for what he considered a purpose. This leads to variations and jokes and the chapter ends in spectacular writing about the chasm that has rent the soul of western man ever since Descartes' coined his famous phrase. So philosophy is entering our story. July Third: I love Percy's juxtapositions in phrases of his own: No one is in but Father Kev Kevin who is sitting at the vaginal computer reading a book, Christianity Without G-d.? So funny.? And when asked if it is good, Father Kev answers"...Yes, this is where it's at." What a wonderful set up to the hilarious scenes which are to follow. And, no doubt, a gentle nudge by our author to remind us of what happens when such books are considered where it's at. Tom wonders how Art Immelman could have found out about his invention... The next line is "Speak of the devil." Perhaps over obvious, but funny, nonetheless. Later there are some hairs on Art's head that stick up like a wet airdale's and I wonder if that refers to horns? When Immelman tells Tom to sign the funding application for research grants and Tom resists, he is told, "Just in case anything should go wrong, I'll be around." Tom asks what could go wrong and Immelman tells him, "Just in case." Ha. Whenever Immelman is around there is a strange smell of sweat overlaid by deodorant. And Immelman always seems to show up out of nowhere. He uses phrases Tom hasn't heard for decades; so he also seems to fit into any time frame, thus immortal. The phrase "Well, well" shows up. It is also in The Thanatos Syndrome and I found something interesting when I was doing research on that book. I wonder if it is just an accident that it is here, too. So is Tom the patient or the doctor diagnostician? Is all that is to happen in the Pit a figment of his imagination or does it happen exactly as described? He asks himself why he feels better when he feels crazy. Tom has been expecting the Director to sanction his lapsometer. And when he asks the Director why he told Art Immelman that he had approved the application, the Director asserts he never heard of Immelman. Uh oh. The heavy sodium mentioned in this novel comes back with a flourish in The Thanatos Syndrome. When Art ?adds his improvements to the gadget and uses it on Tom, Tom gets a big boost. There is much technical talk of the brain and of how we perceive women and music. ?The author as scientist and semioticist visits our story here. SloMo comes in here too. Happiness, spontaneity now can give each of us a great sense of freedom and omniscience. "Isn't it better to feel good rather than bad?" Art asks Tom. ?Tom is losing his terror. He has a conversation with himself. Is he mad or more sane than ever as he approaches the subject to be evaluated in the Pit? After worrying that there are dangers if his invention falls into the wrong hands, Immelman gives some quasi assurances and Tom signs the contract, sealing his pact with the devil. Art tells him he has nothing to do but never look back and never regret as per agreement. "What agreement?" Tom asks. On to the Pit. The page that describes Tom's entrance has many small details I like. He walks like the relief pitcher making his slow dramatic entrance from the bullpen. Buddy's fans are euthanasists. Later in the page Tom talks of the famous judge who once improved the quality of life in India in a successful program of 100,000,000 abortions and an equal number of painless "terminations" of miserable and unproductive folk. Such tossed off things in the text will be used in Thanatos to register Percy's worry about these cavalier attitudes. A student or two, fans, assume they share the same convictions as Tom; this is another reference to Percy's idea from the last section that we see what we want to see. Again there is a phrase that Tom says he doesn't pay much attention left or right, referring to the people on both sides of the aisle, but obliquely it is a reference to the factions, the Leftists and the Knotheads of the first section of the book. And I liked the phrase that the kids now don't have enough sense to know what they don't know. I liked the description of the students later in the text that the freer they are the more dogmatic they are; and at heart they are totalitarian. Later Tom sees that mysteriously Art has found his lapsometers. I loved the whole scene with Mr. Ives. I found it all so funny. I could just see Percy enjoying himself as he wrote this part. Then Art goes to town. And then Art uses the new improved lapsometer on everyone and everyone loses inhibition and, pun intended, all hell breaks loose. Sensible Ellen is angry and worried. Art is proud of himself at his pilot test of the object. Tom wants to cancel the contract but Arts just brushes him off. Max Gottlieb and Ellen on each side of Tom, The Three Musketeers, understand that they must get Tom out of there to be ready to face the next day. The reference to Sewanee in the closing sentence is for two things: Percy's "Uncle Will" went to college there and Sewanee is the fictionalized setting of The Second Coming. Janet Cantor Send and everyone who gets the treatment with the new and improved lapsometer loses inhibition and? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 21:42:39 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 21:42:39 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 4 - "July Third" In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: <53CF130F.5030005@gmail.com> Thanks for your great comments, Greg. I'm restarting this thread with a chapter heading for the subject line, so all can follow along more easily. Not all list members are able to follow discussion in "real time." Best, Henry Mills Percy-L Administrator On 7/21/14, 11:56 PM, Plemmons, Gregory wrote: > Hi, y'all, > > Below are some thoughts I had on reading this section: > > Percy?s July Third section takes place almost exclusively within the confines of the medical school. After a relatively brief and seemingly uneventful section with Tom?s mother, action/machination returns, this time on an stage, which is often a useful device itself (the play within a play...) > > I wondered about Percy?s choice of the Pit as the setting for this section. What do others think? He seems to use it to great effect here. Such amphitheaters are still fairly common in educational settings. How much of what we consider education is entertainment, and vice versa? Does it matter? Did everyone else find Mr. Ives to be quite a sympathetic character? The public inquisition to which he is subjected here is quite humiliating, and yet while Tom initially seems sympathetic, defending Mr. Ive?s defecation and mutism, how much is done out of empathy, and self-recognition? How much is done for spectacle? Tom is quite the critic of how gladiatorial the whole guise of academic ?sportsmanship? pretends to be?and a brilliant satirist--yet I feel finds himself completely swept up in the game, at times. Is it humanly possible to remain objective and aware of the Game? (and what would Percy think of Dr. Phil?) > > At one point (p. 219) Tom says ?students are, if the truth be known, a bad lot.? Does he believe this? In this section, the teachers act just as juvenile?is there hope for future generations, or are we essentially trapped in the human condition? I keep thinking of the young hippie couple with the baby, on Honey Island?are they lost, or simply Hope? > > At one point, Tom has a fleeting moment of insight??the thing to do, it occurs to me halfway down into the pit, is to concern myself with the patient and what ails him, and forget the rest??which I think is a shining moment of grace?but it seems to me that the challenge is how to forget the rest?is it humanly possible, without the Gift? Without Grace? > > Although Percy has never been pegged as a traditional Southern writer, at least in the Faulknerian sense of place, I?m always struck by his keen awareness of the nuances of each region and his depiction of Mr. Ives here?Mr. Ives seems curiously displaced, yet is most likely typical Everyman for your average 1960?s middle-class Southerner. Ives, we?re told, is from Tennessee, but lived for forty years in Hartford, Connecticut as an insurance controller before his wife died (shades of Doris/Catherine? self-identification?), and he desires to return home to Tennessee (aptly, Lost Cove--Lost Self?). I?m sure whole essays have been written on this choice, and What is Home, and what is Self (as someone pointed out earlier, the Mall-ification of the South)?but it seemed at least worth a comment here. Can he truly go home? Was he there to begin with? > > Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance ?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than ever?the center cannot hold... > > Greg > > > > > > From jhforest at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 08:29:33 2014 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 14:29:33 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 4 - "July Third" In-Reply-To: <53CF130F.5030005@gmail.com> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <53CF130F.5030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: Probably many others on the WP List are following the comments on LITR as attentively as I am but, like me, just listening in with immense gratitude to those who are speaking up. What a joy it is rereading LITR in good company. One minor comment. WP?s portrait of the devil (Art Immelman) is strikingly similar to Mikhail Bulkagov?s portrait of the devil (Pofessor Woland) in The Master & Margarita. Had Percy read Bulgakov?s novel? My guess is yes. Jim Forest * * * *Jim & Nancy Forest* Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands *new book*: *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Wed Jul 23 09:17:26 2014 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:17:26 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 4 - "July Third" In-Reply-To: References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <53CF130F.5030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20140723091726.x4hpsoru9wk8woww@webmail.iu.edu> Jim, I can't answer your question, but Art also reminds me of the "devil" Ivan converses with in the Brothers Karamazov. I, too, am enjoying the discussion. -David Quoting Jim Forest : > Probably many others on the WP List are following the comments on LITR as > attentively as I am but, like me, just listening in with immense gratitude > to those who are speaking up. What a joy it is rereading LITR in good > company. > > > > One minor comment. WP?s portrait of the devil (Art Immelman) is strikingly > similar to Mikhail Bulkagov?s portrait of the devil (Pofessor Woland) in > The Master & Margarita. Had Percy read Bulgakov?s novel? My guess is yes. > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > > *Jim & Nancy Forest* > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > *new book*: *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment*: > www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > * * * > From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 10:53:18 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:53:18 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 4 - "July Third" In-Reply-To: <20140723091726.x4hpsoru9wk8woww@webmail.iu.edu> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <53CF130F.5030005@gmail.com> <20140723091726.x4hpsoru9wk8woww@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <1406127198.83447.YahooMailNeo@web126703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Yes, David. That also makes sense because we know that Percy read that book and loved it. Janet Jim, I can't answer your question, but Art also reminds me of the "devil" Ivan converses with in the Brothers Karamazov. I, too, am enjoying the discussion. -David Quoting Jim Forest : > Probably many others on the WP List are following the comments on LITR as > attentively as I am but, like me, just listening in with immense gratitude > to those who are speaking up. What a joy it is rereading LITR in good > company. > > > > One minor comment. WP?s portrait of the devil (Art Immelman) is strikingly > similar to Mikhail Bulkagov?s portrait of the devil (Pofessor Woland) in > The Master & Margarita. Had Percy read Bulgakov?s novel? My guess is yes. > > > > Jim Forest > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Wed Jul 23 11:46:44 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 11:46:44 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] art Immelman and us Message-ID: <53CFD8E4.1000305@gmail.com> the devil has been around in many guises... hasn't he? his most recent visitation for this reader was in Hitlers boy hood bedroom (Norman Mailer "Castle in the Forest") the point is he is around us still...........?? and I think that this is want needs to be noticed? we all have a little Art Immelman inside of us??? He isn't separate from us? Perhaps he is Tom Mores SHADOW Persona? Percy had a knack for knowing his own devils...........don't you think? of course" what with the world ending" ( tom at the beginning is waiting for the world to end?) the Devil is sure to rise from the ground to make more mischief it is his best time after all? to be there in a time of uncertainty? he is there to stop the wayfarer's on their journey? Maybe its' Dr, More temptations( like Faust's) those temptations fatally deceive a self but they sure bring up the devil in us?????? eh? be careful what you wish for? -- Lauren Stacy Berdy ( -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 23 11:50:02 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 08:50:02 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] art Immelman and us - July third In-Reply-To: <53CFD8E4.1000305@gmail.com> References: <53CFD8E4.1000305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1406130602.9105.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> A plus all the way. You ?are stealing some of my thunder for my comments on the last section. But it is good to know that I am not alone in thinking these things. Thanks. Janet ________________________________ From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: [percy-l] art Immelman and us the devil has been around in many guises... hasn't he? his most recent visitation for this reader was in? Hitlers boy hood bedroom (Norman Mailer? "Castle in the Forest") the point is he is around us still...........?? and I think that this is want needs to be noticed? we all have a little Art Immelman inside of us??? He isn't separate from us? Perhaps he is Tom Mores SHADOW Persona? Percy had a knack for knowing his own devils...........don't you think? of course" what with the world ending" ( tom at the beginning is waiting for the world to end?) the Devil is sure to rise from the ground to make more mischief it is his best time after all? to be there in a time of uncertainty? he is there to stop the wayfarer's? on their journey? Maybe its' Dr, More temptations( like? Faust's) those temptations fatally deceive? a self but they sure bring up the devil in us?????? eh? be careful what you wish for? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Jul 23 11:56:20 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 08:56:20 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 4 - "July Third" In-Reply-To: References: , <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu>, <53CF130F.5030005@gmail.com>, , <20140723091726.x4hpsoru9wk8woww@webmail.iu.edu>, <1406127198.83447.YahooMailNeo@web126703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: I checked Percy's collection at UNC-Chapel Hill, but it doesn't have the Bulkagov book in it. On the other hand, it doesn't have The Brothers Karamozov either, and we know how central that novel was for him. So, no illumination from this end either, Jim. Rhonda McDonnellInstitute for Studies in PragmaticismTexas Tech University "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." ~Walker Percy~ Walker Percy Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 07:53:18 -0700 To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 4 - "July Third" From: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Yes, David. That also makes sense because we know that Percy read that book and loved it.Janet Jim, I can't answer your question, but Art also reminds me of the "devil" Ivan converses with in the Brothers Karamazov. I, too, am enjoying the discussion. -David Quoting Jim Forest : > Probably many others on the WP List are following the comments on LITR as > attentively as I am but, like me, just listening in with immense gratitude > to those who are speaking up. What a joy it is rereading LITR in good > company. > > > > One minor comment. WP?s portrait of the devil (Art Immelman) is strikingly > similar to Mikhail Bulkagov?s portrait of the devil (Pofessor Woland) in > The Master & Margarita. Had Percy read Bulgakov?s novel? My guess is yes. > > > > Jim Forest > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Jul 23 12:17:57 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 09:17:57 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR July Third In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: , <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB046D6CE@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: The description of Mr. Ives hit me too, though without your comments, Greg, I wouldn't have connected it to the Scopes trial. Percy claimed he believed in creation through evolution--he said it wasn't an either/or--that science and religion didn't have to be in conflict. I love the humor in this section. Percy knew how to play to the groundlings. Dr. Bung . . . c'mon, am I the only one that laughs out loud at that? Perhaps, as I am still 12 years old on the inside. Immelman, with his crotch adjusting, hawking, spitting, and sweaty smell--pretty comic as a devil, what with the running around distributing the lapsometers and then justifying it as a pilot. I think (if I remember rightly) Percy's devils are always crotch adjusters, as though when they are embodied, they are a mirror image of humans (like Lauren said about Immelman perhaps being Tom's shadow self), so they look okay until it's something that the mirror flips--best illustrated apparently by the side he "dresses" on. Buddy with his "I see Christmas" statement. The "piss on Ohioans" and the ruckus that causes, with the Ohioan in the audience getting hot under the collar, and then Max getting stirred up by the mention of Jews, while Colley Wilkes just stays hunkered down was some pretty good social satire. No one bothers to be offended until it gets personal. Say what you want about my neighbor, my colleague, my friend . . . just don't say it about me. The comments about the students cracked me up, too. Any one who has been a teacher and is honest with him/her self ought to see the truth in those observations. The best thing about the truth is that it is so funny. Perhaps that's why when Kafka read his work aloud to his friends, they would laugh until tears came to their eyes. Rhonda McDonnellInstitute for Studies in PragmaticismTexas Tech University "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." ~Walker Percy~ Walker Percy > Mr. Ives: ?his monkey eyes snap??I couldn?t help but chuckle, and wonder about Percy?s word choice here, having spent the weekend not too far from Dayton, Tennessee?home of the Monkey Trial?(which is not too far from Lost Cove, either?if any of you are wondering, which is a real, not fictional place). Both of those locales are fairly close to Sewanee, where Percy's family had property, I'm told, and where he spent some time. Nearly a hundred years later, evolutionary biology is still being debated here (and nationally) and I continue to be fascinated by the constant intersection/conflict of science and faith. Interestingly, of note, here in Tennessee a rebuttal ?play/musical? has been written to counterbalance ?Inherit The Wind?--entitled "Inherit The Truth" (and the Creation Museum up the road in Kentucky is erecting a life-size replica of Noah?s Ark). At least in my neck of the woods, it seems we need Percy?s voice more than ever?the center cannot hold... > > Greg > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From padraig at well.com Sun Jul 27 15:57:13 2014 From: padraig at well.com (Patrick Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 12:57:13 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] =?windows-1252?q?LITR_Slow_Read_Chapter_5_=96=93July_Fo?= =?windows-1252?q?urth=94?= Message-ID: <53D55999.9010300@well.com> Note: Like others, I enjoy Percy from an amateur (in its original sense) perspective. We read about the times before and after the opening July Fourth section. There is a Bantu uprising and More has turned over the lapsometer to Art Immelmann. He also has holed up Moira, Lola, and Ellen in a motel as the sand pits in the golf course; Art has loosed the lapsometer on Knothead, Bantu, and others while imminent destruction may happen, according to Dr More. Currently I am reading Karl Ove Knausgaard?s /My Struggle/ (Vol. 1) and it seems to parallel one of the points Percy may be making in this section, as Knausgaard meditates on art and how it changes over time: The fact that things other and mysterious were relevant to us had led my thoughts to angels, those mystical creatures who not only were linked to the divine but also to humanness, and therefore expressed the duality of the nature of otherness better than any other figure. /At the same time there was something deeply dissatisfying about both the paintings and angels, since they both belonged to the past in such a fundamental way, that part of the past we have put behind us, that is, which no longer fit in, into this world we had created where the great, the divine, the solemn, the holy, the beautiful, and the true were no longer valid entities but quite the contrary, dubious or even laughable/[Emphasis added.] ? As far as Norwegian art is concerned, the break came with Munch; it was in his paintings that, for the first time, man took up all the space. Whereas man was subordinate to the Divine through to the Age of Enlightenment, and to the landscape he was depicted in during Romanticism - the mountains are vast and intense, the sea is vast and intense, even the trees are vast and intense while humans, without exception, are small - the situation is reversed with Munch. /It is as if humans swallow up everything, make everything theirs. The mountains, the sea, the trees, and the forests, everything is colored by humanness. Not human actions and external life, but human feelings and inner life./ [Emphasis added.] ? We understand everything, and we do so because we have turned everything into ourselves. Nowadays, as one might expect, all those who have occupied themselves with the neutral, the negative, the nonhuman in art, have turned to language, that is where the incomprehensible and the otherness have been sought, as if they were to be found on the margins of human expression, on the fringes of what we understand, and of course, actually, that is logical: where else would it be found in a world that no longer acknowledges that there is a beyond? (pp. 220-22 in Knausgaard, /My Struggle/, Vol. 1, (trans. Don Bartlett), New York: Archipelgo Books, 2012) While there is a lot here about art, I think it also reflects More?s point of view in this section. He talks of angelism and bestialism. Everything becomes shaped by his humanness, his perspective. Everything, the women, the lapsometer, the Bantus, the Knotheads, reflect him and where he currently exists. Winner in The Pit (almost by accident), he now must go out into the world as it is in this section. In one sense, this section is More in The Pit, not as himself, but as Mr. Ives.He knows what others do not. His responses are determined by his inner comprehension. Yes, he is abstracted from himself by love/lust for the three women, and yes, this Pit (with fire and brimstone burning in the sand pits of the gold course) may even be the Inferno, and yes, More finds it very more difficult to breath and stay awake, because some kind of revelation is at hand.(Are the three women parallels to the three temptations of Christ in the desert in some way?) Dr. More will see it all come together in his own epiphany, similar to Mr. Ives understanding of what he perceives everything is about in the Pit section. This may be because all of this is a much needed distraction. He must be distracted because, as Mr Ives must shut down, he will reveal a frightening and hard-to-express revelation about what Samantha?s death means to him. (He will also need a grace to process this. Three graces in Lola, Moira, and Ellen?) In a comic sense (very much like the /Divine Comedy/ and very much as Lauren Stacy Berdy has already hinted), More for this section seems very much Percy?s ?man on the train.? Snipers are shooting at him; colleagues are attacking him; only a few like Ellen and Victor truly commiserate with him. He annotates every moment with a keen sense of that moment and he details every move. He answers all questions curtly because he ?s ?focused.? Here arises the comedy because he is focused on the moment (shades of Kiekegaard) and the current crisis. Yet he remains distracted by needing to ?save? the women and his lapsometer. He has a clear antagonist in Immelmann (with a nod to the Satanic overtures many here have mentioned). In fact, he resembles a Flannery O?Connor?s character with a gun (lapsometers?) pressed against the head. But is all of this some kind of strange grace that Percy has assembled, leading to More?s very quick revelation about what happened toward the end of Samantha?s life? Is this the Pit where More reveals to himself, as he revealed to the crowd the ?truth? about Mr Ives, the utter truth necessary to seek a grace? To comprehend a grace? Are we joining More in answering what may be a key question, ?If only??If only we hadn?t been defeated by humdrum humming present time and missed it, missed ourselves, missed everything? (p. 374)? Is he finding a way to step past his broke heart and find the grace to return to the present and his present life, and consequently to be present to his own life and ?pineal self?? And what of the lines from Christmas carols/songs that echo throughout the chapter? Where do they fit into all of this? Thanks to all the thoughtful consideration of the previous section (in the the future subsequent section. I offer these as thoughts to begin consideration of Chapter 5 of our online discussion. Have at them, reinforce them, undermine them, ignore them. Please accept these amateur considerations as a mere invitation for more wonderful thoughts, draft-like as they are. Patrick Lynch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jul 28 02:10:04 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 23:10:04 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] =?utf-8?b?ICBMSVRSIFNsb3cgUmVhZCBDaGFwdGVyIDUg4oCT4oCc?= =?utf-8?q?July_Fourth=E2=80=9D_the_penultimate_section_of_LITR=2E?= In-Reply-To: <53D55999.9010300@well.com> References: <53D55999.9010300@well.com> Message-ID: <1406527804.19376.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Wow, Patrick. Terrific. What an act to follow. I hope I don't disappoint when I do the last section for next week. So now we get to the section where?Tom is filling us in about how he got to that spot where he could see everything, and knew better than most, the dangers all around. ?In the midst of all the potshots taken at him, the threats of the potential kidnappings, the chaos that Immelman is creating with the lapsometer and all the rest there are some areas where there is normalcy and people are unaffected by what is going on.. We learn in this chapter why Tom was urged to go to his mother's house; it was because the Bantus wanted his house as part of the whole area and they needed Tom out of there, so the shootings were not to kill him, but to encourage him to leave. His chest is buzzing. He fears the worst. But it is only his phone. Ha. Ellen's voice, like a tiny Presvbyterian cricket scolds him from the phone, reminiscent of Binx's aunt in the Moviegoer, that he is not living up to his potential. Something is going to happen today. Tom tells Moira they can't leave the hotel until he makes sure that it's safe for them either in Paradise or the Center. I like that those two are place names of our story but they have convenient double meanings. Someone is shooting into the hotel. Tom has to go out to find who it is. The scene with his mother makes me wonder what is real and what is not in the story. She goes about blithely doing what she wants as if none of the violence or chaos is affecting her. Why is that so? ? Tom gets locked up in the rectory by Uru, one of the Bantus. But Tom was on the building committee and figures a way to get out. ? All of this is very funny, especially with the loud music punctuating everything. There could be complete chaos with Tom and his three ladies. Tom wants all three. He is in love with Lola and Moira and Ellen is efficient. As Ellen takes over, Tom tells himself that no one ever had a better nurse than Ellen. Later he talks to Max Gottlieb who tells him that the only two people in the world who believe in Tom are Max and Ellen and that he had better take care of Ellen. Tom meets a group of leftists. I loved it when they told him "We practice creative nonviolent violence, that is, violence in the service of nonviolence. It is a matter of intention." Tom tells us that the one who said this a semanticist. And it continues on that page getting more hilarious as it goes. When Tom says if it is so bad here why, don't you live in Sweden or North Ecuador, he is told, don't be silly; do you know how much I am earning here? Too funny. On page 353 we get back to where the novel started. He leaves his safe venue on the interstate from which he can see everything. Art Immelman tells Tom, "We never do anything to anybody. We only help people do what they want to do. This is a key. He also tells Tom, "We are dedicated to the freedom of the individual to choose his own destiny and develop his potential." I thought of Slomo. Suddenly Tom is waking up from an injection that Dr. Gottlieb has given him and Ellen is there. The girls have all left the hotel. Lola has returned to Tara and Moira has left with Buddy Brown. The Bantus have been foiled in their plans. There were only a few of them anyway. ?Most people black and white liked things the way they were. (This reminded me of the end of Percy's Civil War essay where he was glad the Union held.) Ellen tells Tom to go back to work. He says he couldn't. There is the terror. And the useless longing on weekdays. On page 366 some of the people from his case studies at the beginning of the book suddenly appear and I believe this is a dream sequence. Is most of the rest of this section a dream? In a scene reminiscent of the one in The Moviegoer when Lonnie tells Binx he is taking his communion for Binx, Tom remembers when his daughter Samantha asks him why he doesn't go to mass anymore. She urges her father not to commit the sin against grace. "If G-d gives you the grace to believe in him and love him and you refuse, the sin will not be forgiven you." When Art tries to take Tom to Denmark, Ellen won't let Tom go. (good and evil in combat?) Tom also stops Ellen from going with Art. When Art says that the two of them will go with him, Tom says, "Don't touch her!" Tom asks Sir Thomas More to pray for them and drive Art hence. Art slowly recedes.? This harks back to when Art told him ?that he only helped people do what they wanted to do. ?Tom prays and the devil loses. That's my two cents. Can't wait to hear from others. On to the next section. See you next week. Janet Cantor Note: Like others, I enjoy Percy from an amateur (in its original sense) perspective. We read about the times before and after the opening July Fourth section. There is a Bantu uprising and More has turned over the lapsometer to Art Immelmann. He also has holed up Moira, Lola, and Ellen in a motel as the sand pits in the golf course; Art has loosed the lapsometer on Knothead, Bantu, and others while imminent destruction may happen, according to Dr More. ? Currently I am reading Karl Ove Knausgaard?s My Struggle (Vol. 1) and it seems to parallel one of the points Percy may be making in this section, as Knausgaard meditates on art and how it changes over time: ? The fact that things other and mysterious were relevant to us had led my thoughts to angels, those mystical creatures who not only were linked to the divine but also to humanness, and therefore expressed the duality of the nature of otherness better than any other figure. At the same time there was something deeply dissatisfying about both the paintings and angels, since they both belonged to the past in such a fundamental way, that part of the past we have put behind us, that is, which no longer fit in, into this world we had created where the great, the divine, the solemn, the holy, the beautiful, and the true were no longer valid entities but quite the contrary, dubious or even laughable[Emphasis added.] ? As far as Norwegian art is concerned, the break came with Munch; it was in his paintings that, for the first time, man took up all the space. Whereas man was subordinate to the Divine through to the Age of Enlightenment, and to the landscape he was depicted in during Romanticism - the mountains are vast and intense, the sea is vast and intense, even the trees are vast and intense while humans, without exception, are small - the situation is reversed with Munch. It is as if humans swallow up everything, make everything theirs. The mountains, the sea, the trees, and the forests, everything is colored by humanness. Not human actions and external life, but human feelings and inner life. [Emphasis added.] ?? We understand everything, and we do so because we have turned everything into ourselves. Nowadays, as one might expect, all those who have occupied themselves with the neutral, the negative, the nonhuman in art, have turned to language, that is where the incomprehensible and the otherness have been sought, as if they were to be found on the margins of human expression, on the fringes of what we understand, and of course, actually, that is logical: where else would it be found in a world that no longer acknowledges that there is a beyond? (pp. 220-22 in Knausgaard, My Struggle, Vol. 1, (trans. Don Bartlett), New York: Archipelgo Books, 2012) ? While there is a lot here about art, I think it also reflects More?s point of view in this section. He talks of angelism and bestialism. Everything becomes shaped by his humanness, his perspective. Everything, the women, the lapsometer, the Bantus, the Knotheads, reflect him and where he currently exists. Winner in The Pit (almost by accident), he now must go out into the world as it is in this section. ? In one sense, this section is More in The Pit, not as himself, but as Mr. Ives.? He knows what others do not. His responses are determined by his inner comprehension. Yes, he is abstracted from himself by love/lust for the three women, and yes, this Pit (with fire and brimstone burning in the sand pits of the gold course) may even be the Inferno, and yes, More finds it very more difficult to breath and stay awake, because some kind of revelation is at hand.? (Are the three women parallels to the three temptations of Christ in the desert in some way?) Dr. More will see it all come together in his own epiphany, similar to Mr. Ives understanding of what he perceives everything is about in the Pit section. This may be because all of this is a much needed distraction. He must be distracted because, as Mr Ives must shut down, he will reveal a frightening and hard-to-express revelation about what Samantha?s death means to him. (He will also need a grace to process this. Three graces in Lola, Moira, and Ellen?) ? In a comic sense (very much like the Divine Comedy and very much as Lauren Stacy Berdy has already hinted), More for this section seems very much Percy?s ?man on the train.? Snipers are shooting at him; colleagues are attacking him; only a few like Ellen and Victor truly commiserate with him. He annotates every moment with a keen sense of that moment and he details every move. He answers all questions curtly because he ?s ?focused.? Here arises the comedy because he is focused on the moment (shades of Kiekegaard) and the current crisis. Yet he remains distracted by needing to ?save? the women and his lapsometer. He has a clear antagonist in Immelmann (with a nod to the Satanic overtures many here have mentioned). In fact, he resembles a Flannery O?Connor?s character with a gun (lapsometers?) pressed against the head. ? But is all of this some kind of strange grace that Percy has assembled, leading to More?s very quick revelation about what happened toward the end of Samantha?s life? Is this the Pit where More reveals to himself, as he revealed to the crowd the ?truth? about Mr Ives, the utter truth necessary to seek a grace? To comprehend a grace? Are we joining More in answering what may be a key question, ?If only??If only we hadn?t been defeated by humdrum humming present time and missed it, missed ourselves, missed everything? (p. 374)? Is he finding a way to step past his broke heart and find the grace to return to the present and his present life, and consequently to be present to his own life and ?pineal self?? ? And what of the lines from Christmas carols/songs that echo throughout the chapter? Where do they fit into all of this? Thanks to? all the thoughtful consideration of the previous section (in the the future subsequent section. I offer these as thoughts to begin consideration of Chapter 5 of our online discussion. Have at them, reinforce them, undermine them, ignore them. Please accept these amateur considerations as a mere invitation for more wonderful thoughts, draft-like as they are. Patrick Lynch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Tue Jul 29 14:24:10 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 14:24:10 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] his name is "Art" Immelman In-Reply-To: <53D55999.9010300@well.com> References: <53D55999.9010300@well.com> Message-ID: <53D7E6CA.4040408@gmail.com> * **"Everything becomes shaped by his humanness, his perspective"* Thank you Patrick for expanding meaning and bringing more oxygen inti the room. The thoughts about art that engaged the author that you quoted ( My Struggle Vol 1) have been given voice by many other writers and teachers. Very very simply stated art no longer serves the soul it serves the personality. It has become a private truth. We have permitted a normal sensibility only to some men/ women and to take it for granted that other men/ women have to be taught to feel. this must be attributed to the kind of civilization that we have put up with? Art at its bests and at its' most well served sense .........."is the good of man" ( Aristotle) Now, it is used as a way to make an exhibition of oneself . (Personalities are interesting only to their owners.) Art is a kind of knowledge. ( think Shaker furniture) The knower is one with the known. ( think Tom More aligning himself to a more intelligent pattern of thought) At one time art was a common language in the world. it served the inner man. Now, personal symbols have evolved which are not based on any natural correspondence. it seems to be based on private associations of ideas. ( now it is all about reaction) I for one firmly believe that Tom discovers the " divine awareness" in himself. ( Grace maybe? I dunno.) In the best sense this is what art can lay claim to. It can help towards a greater consciousness of being. "Art" Immelman is the very opposite he is distorted . he is interested in sensation. he is compulsive.He is not united with anyone in spirit. He is for himself. (Not unlike many modern artists) he is concrete ( without ambiguity) to Dr. More's eternal (resuscitated self) /however even our devils are our teaches..................../ /(or our inadequacies are our teachers?)/ And.........what /are /those Christmas carols telling us?????? are they a reminder of Samantha of a time when caroling was part of the everyday and caroling is in the atmosphere like harps to his ears and he is now open to hearing it....?( frankly, I would choose different music)) Somehow I feel they are a calling attention but attention to what?......( not my own cultural background) (I read somewhere that Santa claus was left over from Sun worship? he enters through the chimney bearing gifts not the front door. Light finds a way in;-) ...........) Thank you, Lauren Stacy Berdy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: