From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 15:18:04 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [percy-l] a back and forth of opinions about The Moviegoer Message-ID: <1402341484.35759.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Here is a good review on Amazon and three comments, two of them mine: 65 of 72 people found the following review helpful ?One of the Greatest American Novels of the Twentieth Century,?August 12, 1997 By?A Customer This review is from:?Moviegoer (Paperback) The novel takes place over the course of one week, Mardi Gras week, in New Orleans, and concerns Binx Bolling, the eponymous moviegoer, who will turn thirty in the course of the novel. Binx is also the narrator of the novel, and it's his voice that gives the book its unique humor, irony, and poignance; a plot synopsis does not do justice to the complexity and compellingness of this influential novel. Binx, a dreamy stockbroker and scion of an old patriarchal New Orleans family, is (he tells us confidentially) on a search. The nature of Binx's search is only vaguely understood by the reader, but Binx himself seems to know exactly what he's talking about when he uses his own peculiar vocabulary to describe aspects of the search (words like "repetition" and "rotation" are specialized jargon in Binx's idiom, used to refer to specific phenomenon.) Percy's great achievement with this novel is handling the subtle variations of distance between the reader and Binx: Is he an entirely trustworthy narrator? Is he demented, dishonest, insane? Is he putting us on? Or does he distrust the reader? Does he know we're watching him? Binx slyly takes his part in the affairs of his family and community, all the while commenting sardonically on various aspects of modern American spirituality, all the while conducting his "search," which leads him to cross paths with his equally insane cousin, Kate, and to incur the wrath of his aristocratic old aunt. It's a very funny, very moving, ultimately heartbreaking book, for we are never sure what has become of Binx and his search. Was his spirit defeated, or does he merely withdraw to conduct his search further outside of the reader's eye? His and Kate's love story, if that's what it is, is tragic, and Binx himself might be a tragic figure--Percy complicates the question mightily. This is a great novel, my favorite of all novels, and it has influenced everyone from Larry McMurtry to Frederick Exley to charlatans like Richard Ford, whose "The Sportswriter" is a blatant ripoff of Percy's book. The cultural commentary of the novel (which was written in the fifties) could have been written yesterday; pay special attention to his aunt's stunning speech near the novel's end when she imperiously indicts the entire American value system. It's a glorious swan song and one of the best chewing-out scenes every written. If they tell me I can take one book to the moon with me, this is the book I'll take. Help other customers find the most helpful reviews? Thank you for your feedback. Report abuse?|?Permalink Comments You are tracking comments by e-mail?Cancel Tracked by 1 customer Sort:?Oldest first?|?Newest first Showing 1-3 of 3 posts in this discussion Your initial post: Jul 6, 2010 6:02:25 PM PDT honey?says: Yours is a lovely review. I'll add mine after I reread and think about the book. But having just finished my first reading of it, I love what you had to say. Thank you. Edit this post?|?Permalink 5 of 5 people think this post adds to the discussion. ________________________________ Posted on Jun 9, 2014 9:48:51 AM PDT John?Martin?says: I had the opposite view of this book. It is a boring account of worthless, arrogant Southern people. Aunt Emily's diatribe is a clear example of the false sense of superiority these people felt. As I said in my review, reading this book is like overturning a rock and seeing the vermin crawling around. I prefer books that are uplifting and promote the human spirit. You just replied with?a later post Reply to this post Permalink?|?Report abuse?|?Ignore this customer Do you think this post adds to the discussion???? ________________________________ 1 new post since your last visit Your post, in reply to?an earlier post?on Jun 9, 2014 12:12:49 PM PDT honey?says: If you are able to read The Moviegoer and not feel uplifted, I am sorry for you. The Epilogue alone makes the reader smile and sigh with wonder at the achievement of this unusual good novel. The book is hilarious and thoughtful at the same time. How can that be bad? You are not reading a pulp novel. You are reading a book about life's ultimate mysteries and how one searches for meaning. Percy makes his conclusions a reach for ? G-d's grace and the necessity to care for someone outside of ourselves. The theme comes in the final scene of the main novel, with the black man coming out of the church on Ash Wednesday. As you read Aunt Emily's rant notice how it is a clear rebuke of Binx's wasteful dreaming and her rage at his not growing up yet, but at the same time it is a representation of a particular attitude of a particular type. An author does not have to idealize his characters or make them lovable to you. He just has to make them worth reading about so you can have an interesting journey. But the book engages, as you read it, with movies, a young person's foolishness in his search, a connection to his cousin and that gorgeous relationship with his half brother which leads Binx toward his good conclusion. From the dung Beetle in the beginning to that trolley ride of his cousin in the Epilogue, a journey is made with wonderful stops along the way full of entertainment and enrichment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhforest at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 06:04:03 2014 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 12:04:03 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Message-ID: from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war The American War by Walker Percy WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians have achieved a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles the reader's enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as well. The general impression outside the South seems to be that it is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that the South has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my experience, that the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama had heard as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during the World War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for the first time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be held off and looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. The bigger it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the Event into a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been ossified too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to Washington than to us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what exactly has been recovered? WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the fight itself. The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and Lee in the McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a look at the fight itself. What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and more than in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, 2,300,000 for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible September 17 at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 when, beginning with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 men a day for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action took place on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this grim beauty when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing his, battle flags flying. "It is well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad was the fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, Union and Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost invincible; when his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union assault on Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they could no longer run over them. AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx. A Con?federate courier loses some battle orders; they are found wrapped around three cigars and brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the fascinating game of what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at Gettysburg? Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were always just short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit and so pass over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, sent Jackson to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have been notable, but they would not have approached the terror and piteousness of what actually did happen. The summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that some of the heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the peace a long descent into mediocrity. In the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of the Army of the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at his mercy. It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the ruined South, to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all other times, even the future. Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own literature and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing the Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of individuals, when a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He carried into battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He actually did have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be discounted because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of Democracy and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army and perhaps they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over slavery. But the other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern Virginia as Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South might even have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American Union. * * * *Jim & Nancy Forest* Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 09:11:03 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:11:03 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] St. Tammany Parish Public Library plans "Walker Percy bronze statue, reading room, and garden for new library" - Support welcomed Message-ID: <53A58467.4090409@gmail.com> Dear Percy-L, For Percy-L community members who wish to know of, if not support a unique and permanent project to honor Percy, please find below information about the forthcoming "Walker Percy Serenity Circle" garden and "Walker Percy Room" to be offered in the near future through a new public library being built near Percy's hometown of Covington in St. Tammany Parish, LA. I hope you will consider supporting this most worthy project and pass this information on to others who may wish to contribute to the library project. Contact information for the project is listed below. Best wishes, Henry Mills -- THE ST. TAMMANY LIBRARY FOUNDATION Invites interested persons to be part of Its new major historic project, the WALKER PERCY SERENITY CIRCLE, a place of quiet and peaceful repose next to the new St. Tammany Library in Madisonville, LA. The library project will honor Percy, as a longtime resident of Covington and world-wide acclaimed author, in three ways by: * Constructing a brick patio next to one of Louisiana's live oak trees and adjacent to the new library; * Creating a Walker Percy Room in the library containing his works and those written about him to offer a quiet place for reading and writing; and * Installing a permanent bronze statue of Percy and his Welsh Corgy "Sweet Thing" sitting on one of the patio's benches. Interested parties may support the project by sponsoring an engraved brick on the patio, or also by contributing a book. Donors may honor someone of their choosing through a personalized engraving on the brick, which can include space for a short quote. All donations are tax-deductible. For more information, contact Argiro Morgan, President, St. Tammany Library Foundation at argiro at bellsouth.net. http://www.sttammanylibraryfoundation.org/ STATUE SKETCH Local Sculptor Bill Binnings is creating the life-sized bronze statue of Percy. A rough sketch of the statue is viewable at: http://www.nola.com/community/st-tammany/index.ssf/2014/03/st_tammany_library_foundation_5.html "AN AFTERNOON WITH THE LAST GENTLEMAN" An earlier event this spring entitled, "An Afternoon with the Last Gentleman," was held on April 27 from 3-6 p.m. under the Seven Sisters Oak, the 1500 year-old National Champion Live Oak Tree, in nearby Mandeville, LA. The special tribute and fundraising gathering was staged to honor the legacy of Percy and raise funds for the library project. Readers may find information about the event here: http://www.nola.com/community/st-tammany/index.ssf/2014/05/st_tammany_library_foundation_6.html ************************************* Henry Mills, Director & Editor The Walker Percy Educational Project, Inc. http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy (web) wppdirector at gmail.com (email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 09:48:09 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:48:09 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] John R. May (1931-2013) - Community Remembrances Message-ID: <53A58D19.1030009@gmail.com> Dear Percy-L: The following are remembrances from friends and family of John R. May, former Walker Percy Project board member. His passing and contributions to Percy studies were noted on an earlier post to the list, where members were invited to share their own remembrances: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/2014-January/001855.html. I hope through this archival post others might have a chance to enjoy reading about Jack's wonderful legacy. I, like many, valued greatly his deep warmth, wisdom, and kindness to so many. Sincerely, Henry Mills ================================================= JOHN R. MAY (1931-2013) - COMMUNITY REMEMBRANCES Archived from Lake Lawn Metairie Funeral Home Guest Book, New Orleans, LA, and submissions by Percy-L members ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 24, 2013 Jack was a loving extension of our Burvant / Pomarede family. He was everpresent as a brother in the early lives of Shirley and Bob Burvant, Urban and Don Pfefferle. We enjoyed him as a brilliant Jesuit, a loving brother and uncle; and in his perfect union with Janet. He and Janet never stopped smiling together. Their union is one of incredible love and devotion, an example to all. Jack, you are missed dearly; our love, prayers, and thoughts are with his children and family. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 25, 2013 Today is Christmas Day and what a Christmas For Jack being both with Jesus and with dear Janet! I shall greatly miss my Jesuit High teacher, my patient and my friend. I shall keep Jack and his entire family in my prayers. ~ Boyd E. Helm, M.D., Baton Rouge, Louisiana ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 25, 2013 Johnny May was my junior year teacher at Jesuit High School in 1957-1958. We addressed him as Mr. May but as classmates he was Johnny May. This was a moniker of respect and admiration. I loved my days at Jesuit and Johnny May was one of my most loved teachers and memories. You have my sympathy but please know that I have thought of Johnny May fondly over the years. ~ Ken Adolph ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 25, 2013 Jack May officiated at my own wedding and my brother Dick's as well. He was an inspiration to me and I continue to consider him a major force in my own direction and growth. His sense of humor is forever memorable as well. ~ Jack Roniger New Orleans ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 25, 2013 Jack was my "spiritual father", as we used to call in those years the priests that helped us on our spiritual journey. That was the time I was a Jesuit scholastic at Spring Hill College. Jack was a kind and compassionate man. I remember him fondly. ~ Carlos de la Cruz, S.J. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 26, 2013 Our condolences on the passing of Daddy Jack. He is the first cousin of Julie May Carrigee, James G. May, and Geraldine May Davis. His father Henry Greve and our father Louis M. May were brothers. ~ Gerald May Metairie, Louisiana ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 26, 2013 Jack was on my dissertation committee years ago and an enormous help in my early years of teaching. I remember when he first arrived at LSU and was head of Freshman English, long before he would take over the chairmanship of the entire department. He was a delightful, wonderful man, a dear friend and brilliant scholar. I am deeply saddened to learn of his death. I send my condolences to his children and family. Rest in peace, dear friend. ~ Stella Nesanovich, Lake Charles, Louisiana ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 28, 2013 Dr. Jack May was a person whom all others should seek to emulate. As long as I'd known him, it was clear that he had lived as an example of academic excellence and perfect human kindness. He was a driving force for molding me and, I'm sure, countless others into responsible, deep-thinking scholars. With Jack, a student could be sure to evolve and move through the cloistered halls of theory and polemical discussion, while not losing sight of the joys of film, literature, and the real reasons why we were drawn to the humanities in the first place. More importantly, he was a good man. I'd come to count on his smiling face, his kind words, and his wisdom to brighten up the corridors of Allen Hall whenever I went in for his advice. I was also inspired by the dedication he showed his family when I was his student and afterwards. The slide show at his services reminded me of those days and made me truly grateful that I had known him. Thinking about Jack and talking with my colleagues from the English Department about his life was truly uplifting, despite the reasons why we were there. He will be missed. But the fond memories I have of him will serve to inspire me in my work and in my life from here on out. ~ Paul Graham New Orleans, Louisiana ------------------------------------------------------------------------ December 28, 2013 My condoleances to the children, relatives and friends of my esteemed colleague. With my deepest sympathy. ~ Adelaide Russo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 08, 2014 Jack May was a wonderful friend and mentor to me. We met in the 1970's, and he helped me spend a sabbatical year at LSU, helped my family find a place to live and schools to attend, and generally took us under his and Janet's wings. Beyond that, he was a fine scholar of religion and Southern literature whose penetrating insights helped shape my thinking for many years. Ever loyal, he would attend my conference presentations over the years, as I attended his when I was able. More than all that, he was a saintly person who always embodied the command to go the extra mile for others. In addition, he had a genial spirit and a wonderful sense of humor. We will miss him. Rest in peace, old friend. ~ john desmond, walla walla, Washington ------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 08, 2014 I just got the sad news of Dr, May's passing today via the LSU English department's Facebook. I knew him fron the time he was supervisor of graduate assistants in the late 1970s until the present. I felt he looked out for my welfare. He was a fine person. My deepest sympathy to his family. ~ Mary Clare Carruth, PhD ------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 14, 2014 I am saddened by the news of Jack's death (through his friend and neighbor, Tania Nyman), but grateful that I got to see him as recently as early November when he and his son John (and Tania) came to my reading at the Louisiana Book Festival. What a delight to see Jack again! He was greatly saddened by the loss of his beloved Janet some years before, but his cheerfulness and kindness were as warm as ever. I first met him in 1985 when I was in graduate school at LSU, and he was the genial chair of the English Department, always smiling and welcoming. He found some money for the printing of a modest publication by students in Andrei Codresu's essays & reviews class, The In-Patient Review (2 issues, 1985). We became friends, and in the early to mid 90s, Jack and Janet invited me to stay at their house a few times when I was visiting from New York. I think the last time I saw Janet May was in 2001, shortly before I moved from N.O. back to NYC, when I introduced my fianc?e, Janet Cameron, to Jack and Janet. It is good to see all the expressions of affection and admiration for Daddy Jack, Johnny May, etc. He was kind and warm and will live on with us all, and in his writings and teachings on literature and film and religion. ~ Mark LaFlaur, Kew Gardens, New York ------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 17, 2014 I was saddened to hear the news of Jack's death. He and Janet had always been strong supporters of me and my work, and we laughed together on many occasions. He introduced me to the work of William F. Lynch, among others, and thus helped shape my thinking about literature and its intersections with religion and philosophy. I am grateful to him, also, for his mentoring me through the rigors of grad school at LSU and, later, my entry into the academic work place. What a fine and holy man! ~ Edward Dupuy, San Antonio, Texas ------------------------------------------------------------------------ January 18, 2014 "A great teacher can inspire hope, ignite the imagination, and instill a love of learning..." -- Brad Henry "A teacher affects eternity; he can never tell where his influence stops..." -- Henry Adams "One looks back with appreciation to the brilliant teachers, but with gratitude to those who touched our human feelings. The curriculum is so much necessary raw material, but warmth is the vital element for the growing [student]..." -- Carl Jung "I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35 For all these gifts given to your students, family, friends, and former Jesuit brothers, I thank you, Jack, and honor you here with these permanently posted remembrances and quotes so apt in their description of you and the life you lived. Devotedly, Henry Archived photograph: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/content/photographs/johnrmay.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Remembrances archived from the Lake Lawn Metairie Funeral Home Guest Book: http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/nola/guestbook.aspx?n=john-may&pid=168714114#sthash.ogsImab7.dpuf. Guest Book will remain online until 1/22/2014. ************************************* Henry Mills, Director & Editor The Walker Percy Educational Project, Inc. http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy (web) wppdirector at gmail.com (email) From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 21 10:32:31 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:32:31 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Jim Forest To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal ? https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war ? The American War ? by Walker Percy ? WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians have achieved a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles the reader's enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as well. ? The general impression outside the South seems to be that it is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that the South has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my experience, that the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama had heard as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during the World War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. ? The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for the first time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be held off and looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. The bigger it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. ? A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the Event into a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been ossified too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to Washington than to us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what exactly has been recovered? ? WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the fight itself. The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and Lee in the McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a look at the fight itself. ? What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and more than in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, 2,300,000 for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible September 17 at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 when, beginning with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 men a day for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. ? Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action took place on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this grim beauty when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing his, battle flags flying.? "It is well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad? was the? fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, Union and Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost invincible; when his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union? assault on Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they could no longer run over them. ? AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx.? A Con?federate courier? loses some battle orders;? they? are found wrapped? around? three cigars and brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the fascinating game of what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at Gettysburg? Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were always just short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. ? Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit and so pass over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, sent Jackson to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. ? Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have been notable, but they would not have approached the terror and? piteousness of what actually did happen. The summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. ? YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that some of the heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the peace a long descent into mediocrity.? In the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of the Army of the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at his mercy. It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the ruined South, to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all other times, even the future. ? Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own literature and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing? the Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of individuals, when a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He carried into battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He actually did have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. ? THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be discounted because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. ? The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of Democracy and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army and perhaps they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over slavery. But the other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern Virginia as Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South might even have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American Union. ? * * * Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands? Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Sun Jun 22 08:50:35 2014 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2014 08:50:35 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> Janet, I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) -David Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? > Janet Cantor > > > ________________________________ > From: Jim Forest > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal > ? > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war > ? > The American War > ? > by Walker Percy > ? > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians > have achieved > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles > the reader's > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as > well. > ? > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that > the South > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my > experience, that > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama > had heard > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during > the World > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. > ? > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for > the first > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be > held off and > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. > The bigger > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. > ? > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the > Event into > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been > ossified > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to > Washington than to > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what > exactly has > been recovered? > ? > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the > fight itself. > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and > Lee in the > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a > look at the > fight itself. > ? > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and > more than > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, > 2,300,000 > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible > September 17 > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 > when, beginning > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 > men a day > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. > ? > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action > took place > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this > grim beauty > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing > his, battle flags flying.? "It is > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad? > was the? fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, > Union and > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost > invincible; when > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union? assault on > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they > could no longer run over them. > ? > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx.? A Con?federate > courier? loses some > battle orders;? they? are found wrapped? around? three cigars and > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the > fascinating game of > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at > Gettysburg? > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were > always just > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. > ? > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit > and so pass > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, > sent Jackson > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. > ? > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have > been notable, > but they would not have approached the terror and? piteousness of > what actually did happen. The > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. > ? > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that > some of the > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the > peace a long descent into mediocrity.? In > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of > the Army of > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at > his mercy. > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the > ruined South, > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all > other times, even the future. > ? > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own > literature > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing? the > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of > individuals, when > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He > carried into > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He > actually did > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. > ? > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be > discounted > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. > ? > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of > Democracy > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army > and perhaps > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over > slavery. But the > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern > Virginia as > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South > might even > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American > Union. > ? > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands? > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > * * * > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > @ sign when addressing email) From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 23 08:49:23 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 05:49:23 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> Message-ID: <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> David, I know the Percy Lists are supposed to try to avoid the political but you offered the Percy quote in response to my comment and I feel a need to have my say. I find it interesting that Coriolanus, my favorite Shakespeare play, is used by both goodies and baddies to justify their personal choices.? We fought in Korea and the president stopped the fighting and did not allow the fight to continue into the north. Where would Koreans prefer to live, in South Korea or North Korea? Americans do not fight to gain territory or to takeover countries. We fight to try to give others the chance to have liberty. We may differ on when it is our fight. If a cancer invades, it is something that is either fought or it kills. Islamism and Communism are the cancers.? So we may differ on whether something is our fight or not, or in how the fight is fought, but, please, let us at least agree that America represents ?the goodies and not the cancer. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: "Beck, David A" To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Janet, I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) -David Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? > Janet Cantor > > > ________________________________ > From: Jim Forest > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal > ? > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war > ? > The American War > ? > by Walker Percy > ? > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians > have achieved > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles > the reader's > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as > well. > ? > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that > the South > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my > experience, that > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama > had heard > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during > the World > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. > ? > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for > the first > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be > held off and > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. > The bigger > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. > ? > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the > Event into > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been > ossified > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to > Washington than to > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what > exactly has > been recovered? > ? > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the > fight itself. > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and > Lee in the > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a > look at the > fight itself. > ? > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and > more than > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, > 2,300,000 > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible > September 17 > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 > when, beginning > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 > men a day > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. > ? > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action > took place > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this > grim beauty > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing > his, battle flags flying.? "It is > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad? > was the? fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, > Union and > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost > invincible; when > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union? assault on > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they > could no longer run over them. > ? > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx.? A Con?federate > courier? loses some > battle orders;? they? are found wrapped? around? three cigars and > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the > fascinating game of > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at > Gettysburg? > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were > always just > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. > ? > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit > and so pass > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, > sent Jackson > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. > ? > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have > been notable, > but they would not have approached the terror and? piteousness of > what actually did happen. The > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. > ? > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that > some of the > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the > peace a long descent into mediocrity.? In > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of > the Army of > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at > his mercy. > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the > ruined South, > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all > other times, even the future. > ? > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own > literature > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing? the > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of > individuals, when > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He > carried into > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He > actually did > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. > ? > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be > discounted > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. > ? > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of > Democracy > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army > and perhaps > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over > slavery. But the > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern > Virginia as > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South > might even > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American > Union. > ? > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands? > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > * * * > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > @ sign when addressing email) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 10:19:12 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 10:19:12 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53A83760.4070508@gmail.com> it is with a tender heart that I write this in response to your dialogue. The good doctor was a diagnostician first and foremost. the chain of abstraction that comes with explanations was not his interest. Transcendence is in each one of us. Our job as humans as I understand it from reading him is to be suspect of our judgements and natural beliefs. Beware of the authority of the surrounding society. Being gradually unfolds and with it conscientiousness which we all have. The mystery of us cannot be claimed by politicians and their decisions. it is up to all of us to recover our sovereignty the feeling that the world is not quite as set and predictable as it seems. Ask yourself why this exchange is occurring? You have time to write these words in your life and have these thoughts. But the big "news" the news that he was interested in telling was much closer to home. Whats going on in your body, your mind, your thoughts. That is the search. That is what he left us. Thats the fight against mediocrity. everything else is distraction Politicians are people too just like us, poor things Lauren Stacy Berdy (614) 314-4162 cell (754) 816-7508 Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com LaurenBrdy at aol.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com On 6/23/2014 8:49 AM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > David, > I know the Percy Lists are supposed to try to avoid the political but > you offered the Percy quote in response to my comment and I feel a > need to have my say. I find it interesting that Coriolanus, my > favorite Shakespeare play, is used by both goodies and baddies to > justify their personal choices. > > We fought in Korea and the president stopped the fighting and did not > allow the fight to continue into the north. Where would Koreans prefer > to live, in South Korea or North Korea? > Americans do not fight to gain territory or to takeover countries. We > fight to try to give others the chance to have liberty. We may differ > on when it is our fight. > If a cancer invades, it is something that is either fought or it > kills. Islamism and Communism are the cancers. > > So we may differ on whether something is our fight or not, or in how > the fight is fought, but, please, let us at least agree that America > represents the goodies and not the cancer. > Janet Cantor > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "Beck, David A" > *To:* percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > *Sent:* Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:50 AM > *Subject:* Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Janet, > I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been > for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since > Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, > roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the > blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the > chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) > > -David > > > > Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L >: > > > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to > > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is > > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since > > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a > > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the > > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I > > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? > > Janet Cantor > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jim Forest > > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM > > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > > > > > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal > > > > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war > > > > The American War > > > > by Walker Percy > > > > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in > > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on > the War > > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a > very high > > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby > Foote's Shiloh! > > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly > > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race > issue may > > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians > > have achieved > > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote > from > > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the > same battle. > > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's > generalship; > > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern > soldier. > > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles > > the reader's > > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this > is just as > > well. > > > > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it > > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that > > the South > > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is > due to an > > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my > > experience, that > > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds > himself among > > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner > insists on > > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly > willing to > > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels > for the > > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I > > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the > twenties. > > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama > > had heard > > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but > every time > > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl > yet not > > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during > > the World > > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook > with the > > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. > > > > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South > > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for > > the first > > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering > and hatred, > > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be > > held off and > > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. > > The bigger > > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day > he looks > > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. > > > > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be > > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great > > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of > recollection, of in? > > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the > > Event into > > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside > > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, > there is > > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been > > ossified > > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and > McClellan and > > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to > > Washington than to > > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what > > exactly has > > been recovered? > > > > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics > > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the > > fight itself. > > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and > > Lee in the > > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little > was said > > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against > brother, > > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis > for the > > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a > > look at the > > fight itself. > > > > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet > > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its > Federal gunboat > > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came > > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more > casualties > > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and > > more than > > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, > > 2,300,000 > > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total > > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer > concentrated fury, > > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible > > September 17 > > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 > > when, beginning > > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 > > men a day > > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over > 8,000 men > > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West > which one > > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. > > > > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army > > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being > caught up in > > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action > > took place > > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a > personal > > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this > > grim beauty > > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army > facing > > his, battle flags flying. "It is > > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of > > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad > > was the fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, > > Union and > > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally > fight no > > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost > > invincible; when > > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly > > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union assault on > > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. > > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, > > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they > attacked all day > > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead > that they > > could no longer run over them. > > > > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon > > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight > when she > > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx. A Con?federate > > courier loses some > > battle orders; they are found wrapped around three cigars and > > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle > > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the > > fascinating game of > > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if > > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton > detectives) > > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at > > Gettysburg? > > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were > > always just > > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. > > > > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, > > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit > > and so pass > > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was > Chancellorsville when > > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, > > sent Jackson > > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and > attacked and > > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's > > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the > > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful > decision at > > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of > falling > > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three > years, > > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. > > > > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a > > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just > competent > > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have > > been notable, > > but they would not have approached the terror and piteousness of > > what actually did happen. The > > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly > in doubt > > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with > both sides > > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. > > > > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was > > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the > things a > > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as > the peace > > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that > > some of the > > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, > found the > > peace a long descent into mediocrity. In > > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, > revealing his > > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a > man was > > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what > he was > > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and > his hidden > > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by > having Lee's > > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of > > the Army of > > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the > West: > > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in > > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at > > his mercy. > > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the > > ruined South, > > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to > discount all > > other times, even the future. > > > > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any > > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own > > literature > > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture > of New > > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at > Bryce > > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing the > > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of > > individuals, when > > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing > in itself > > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite > > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He > > carried into > > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed > men with > > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by > parading a > > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He > > actually did > > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. > > > > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil > > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic > recovery of the > > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there > is also > > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past > seems to > > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be > > discounted > > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words > of the > > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow > > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath > after its one > > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same > romanticism > > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. > > > > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of > > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply > ideology too > > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of > > Democracy > > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army > > and perhaps > > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over > > slavery. But the > > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman > farmers who > > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern > > Virginia as > > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a > > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil > which was > > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South > > might even > > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out > seems to > > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the > American > > Union. > > > > * * * > > Jim & Nancy Forest > > > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > > > > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > > > > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > > > * * * > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > > @ sign when addressing email) > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ > sign when addressing email) > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Mon Jun 23 10:22:17 2014 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 10:22:17 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20140623102217.odehm1n9yo0osgc8@webmail.iu.edu> Janet, I didn't post that to start a political discussion. It was more in line with, What would Percy say about contemporary America? The passage to which I was referring has the protagonist (Tom More) questioning whether our luck has run out or God's blessings are over. While I certainly have a more cynical interpretation of our "freedom fighting" than you do, I don't really want to discuss it on this list. And I don't want to agree or disagree that "America represents the goodies and not the cancer." I think it's more complicated than that. Regardless, I didn't mean to offend but just wanted to throw out a Percean passage that seems to relate to the discussion. Peace. -David Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > David, > I know the Percy Lists are supposed to try to avoid the political but > you offered the Percy quote in response to my comment and I feel a > need to have my say. I find it interesting that Coriolanus, my > favorite Shakespeare play, is used by both goodies and baddies to > justify their personal choices.? > > We fought in Korea and the president stopped the fighting and did not > allow the fight to continue into the north. Where would Koreans > prefer to live, in South Korea or North Korea? > Americans do not fight to gain territory or to takeover countries. We > fight to try to give others the chance to have liberty. We may differ > on when it is our fight. > If a cancer invades, it is something that is either fought or it > kills. Islamism and Communism are the cancers.? > > So we may differ on whether something is our fight or not, or in how > the fight is fought, but, please, let us at least agree that America > represents ?the goodies and not the cancer. > Janet Cantor > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Beck, David A" > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > Janet, > I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been > for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since > Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, > roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the > blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the > machinery clanks, the > chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) > > -David > > > > Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > >> How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to >> think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is >> more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since >> the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a >> great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the >> switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I >> wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? >> Janet Cantor >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Jim Forest >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM >> Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> >> >> >> from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal >> ? >> https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war >> ? >> The American War >> ? >> by Walker Percy >> ? >> WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in >> the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War >> pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high >> order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground > and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! >> What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly >> non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race >> issue may >> be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians >> have achieved >> a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from >> Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the >> same battle. >> Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; >> Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern >> soldier. >> Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles >> the reader's >> enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this >> is just as >> well. >> ? >> The general impression outside the South seems to be that it >> is the rest of the country which has rediscovered > the Civil War, that >> the South >> has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is >> due to an >> understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my >> experience, that >> the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among >> Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on >> casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly >> willing to >> oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the >> first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I >> remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. >> The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama >> had heard >> as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time >> the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a > real brawl yet not >> really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during >> the World >> War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook >> with the >> Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. >> ? >> The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South >> included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for >> the first >> time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering >> and hatred, >> too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be >> held off and >> looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. >> The bigger >> it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day >> he looks >> back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. >> ? >> A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be >> enlightening. There > would probably emerge a pattern common to such great >> events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of >> recollection, of in? >> tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the >> Event into >> a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside >> Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, >> there is >> the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been >> ossified >> too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and >> even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to >> Washington than to >> us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what >> exactly has >> been recovered? >> ? >> WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics >> or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the >> fight > itself. >> The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and >> Lee in the >> McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said >> about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, >> etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the >> textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a >> look at the >> fight itself. >> ? >> What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet >> there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its >> Federal gunboat >> sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came >> through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties >> in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and >> more than >> in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under > arms, >> 2,300,000 >> for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total >> casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, >> there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible >> September 17 >> at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 >> when, beginning >> with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 >> men a day >> for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men >> fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West >> which one >> never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. >> ? >> Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army >> of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being >> caught up in >> the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the > action >> took place >> on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a >> personal >> encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this >> grim beauty >> when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing >> his, battle flags flying.? "It is >> well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of >> it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad? >> was the? fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, >> Union and >> Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no >> longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost >> invincible; when >> his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly >> famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union? assault on >> Longstreet's position in the > sunken road at Fredericksburg. >> The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, >> Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they >> attacked all day >> long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they >> could no longer run over them. >> ? >> AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon >> fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she >> dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx.? A Con?federate >> courier? loses some >> battle orders;? they? are found wrapped? around? three cigars and >> brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle >> of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the >> fascinating game of >> what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if >> McClellan had listened to Phil > Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) >> during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at >> Gettysburg? >> Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were >> always just >> short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. >> ? >> Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, >> the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit >> and so pass >> over immediately into the legend of the race. There was >> Chancellorsville when >> Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, >> sent Jackson >> to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and >> very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's >> "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the >> subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision > at >> Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling >> back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, >> re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. >> ? >> Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a >> little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just >> competent >> and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have >> been notable, >> but they would not have approached the terror and? piteousness of >> what actually did happen. The >> summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt >> after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with >> both sides >> attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. >> ? >> YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was >> always the feeling > then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a >> man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as >> the peace >> that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that >> some of the >> heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, >> found the >> peace a long descent into mediocrity.? In >> the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, >> revealing his >> character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was >> secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was >> shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and >> his hidden >> strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by >> having Lee's >> small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of >> the Army of >> the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from > victories in the West: >> "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in >> defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at >> his mercy. >> It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the >> ruined South, >> to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all >> other times, even the future. >> ? >> Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any >> one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own >> literature >> and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New >> Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce >> Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing? the >> Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of >> individuals, when >> a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted > for some? thing in itself >> but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite >> unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He >> carried into >> battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed >> men with >> it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a >> single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He >> actually did >> have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. >> ? >> THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil >> War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic >> recovery of the >> long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also >> the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to >> gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be >> discounted >> > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the >> old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow >> implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath >> after its one >> day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same >> romanticism >> which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. >> ? >> The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of >> ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too >> closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of >> Democracy >> and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army >> and perhaps >> they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over >> slavery. But the >> other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who >> largely made up the Army of the Tennessee > and the Army of Northern >> Virginia as >> Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a >> continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was >> being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South >> might even >> have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to >> transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the >> American >> Union. >> ? >> * * * >> Jim & Nancy Forest >> >> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands? >> >> Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ >> >> Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com >> >> Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> Photo collections: > www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ >> On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ >> A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ >> In Communion site: www.incommunion.org >> Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ >> >> * * * >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add >> @ sign when > addressing email) > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > @ sign when addressing email) From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Mon Jun 23 11:11:14 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 10:11:14 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Janet, Oh how I wish I could see things as you do. I fear, though, that I am more cynical, and I perceive that Percy was too. The Death-Dealing Death-Loving 20th century as moved into the 21st with no respite. If we are merely altruistic as a nation, how is it that we let genocide go unchecked in places like Myanmar? I fear our interests are often (always?) control by corporate interests and lobbyists. The days of the knotheads are here. Let us hope we survive them. ps--it'd be fun to do a slow read of Love in the Ruins together on the list. Maybe we could spark up a little life? Anyone in? Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 23, 2014, at 7:54 AM, "janetcantor37--- via Percy-L" wrote: > > David, > I know the Percy Lists are supposed to try to avoid the political but you offered the Percy quote in response to my comment and I feel a need to have my say. I find it interesting that Coriolanus, my favorite Shakespeare play, is used by both goodies and baddies to justify their personal choices. > > We fought in Korea and the president stopped the fighting and did not allow the fight to continue into the north. Where would Koreans prefer to live, in South Korea or North Korea? > Americans do not fight to gain territory or to takeover countries. We fight to try to give others the chance to have liberty. We may differ on when it is our fight. > If a cancer invades, it is something that is either fought or it kills. Islamism and Communism are the cancers. > > So we may differ on whether something is our fight or not, or in how the fight is fought, but, please, let us at least agree that America represents the goodies and not the cancer. > Janet Cantor > > > > > From: "Beck, David A" > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Janet, > I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been > for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since > Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, > roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the > blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the > chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) > > -David > > > > Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > > > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to > > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is > > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since > > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a > > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the > > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I > > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? > > Janet Cantor > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jim Forest > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM > > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > > > > > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal > > > > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war > > > > The American War > > > > by Walker Percy > > > > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in > > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War > > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high > > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! > > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly > > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may > > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians > > have achieved > > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from > > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. > > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; > > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. > > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles > > the reader's > > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as > > well. > > > > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it > > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that > > the South > > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an > > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my > > experience, that > > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among > > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on > > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to > > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the > > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I > > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. > > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama > > had heard > > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time > > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not > > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during > > the World > > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the > > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. > > > > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South > > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for > > the first > > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, > > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be > > held off and > > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. > > The bigger > > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks > > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. > > > > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be > > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great > > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? > > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the > > Event into > > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside > > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is > > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been > > ossified > > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and > > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to > > Washington than to > > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what > > exactly has > > been recovered? > > > > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics > > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the > > fight itself. > > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and > > Lee in the > > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said > > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, > > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the > > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a > > look at the > > fight itself. > > > > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet > > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat > > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came > > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties > > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and > > more than > > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, > > 2,300,000 > > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total > > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, > > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible > > September 17 > > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 > > when, beginning > > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 > > men a day > > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men > > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one > > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. > > > > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army > > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in > > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action > > took place > > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal > > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this > > grim beauty > > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing > > his, battle flags flying. "It is > > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of > > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad > > was the fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, > > Union and > > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no > > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost > > invincible; when > > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly > > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union assault on > > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. > > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, > > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day > > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they > > could no longer run over them. > > > > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon > > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she > > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx. A Con?federate > > courier loses some > > battle orders; they are found wrapped around three cigars and > > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle > > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the > > fascinating game of > > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if > > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) > > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at > > Gettysburg? > > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were > > always just > > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. > > > > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, > > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit > > and so pass > > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when > > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, > > sent Jackson > > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and > > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's > > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the > > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at > > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling > > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, > > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. > > > > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a > > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent > > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have > > been notable, > > but they would not have approached the terror and piteousness of > > what actually did happen. The > > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt > > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides > > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. > > > > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was > > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a > > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace > > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that > > some of the > > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the > > peace a long descent into mediocrity. In > > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his > > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was > > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was > > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden > > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's > > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of > > the Army of > > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: > > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in > > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at > > his mercy. > > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the > > ruined South, > > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all > > other times, even the future. > > > > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any > > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own > > literature > > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New > > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce > > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing the > > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of > > individuals, when > > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself > > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite > > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He > > carried into > > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with > > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a > > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He > > actually did > > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. > > > > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil > > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the > > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also > > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to > > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be > > discounted > > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the > > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow > > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one > > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism > > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. > > > > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of > > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too > > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of > > Democracy > > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army > > and perhaps > > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over > > slavery. But the > > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who > > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern > > Virginia as > > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a > > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was > > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South > > might even > > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to > > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American > > Union. > > > > * * * > > Jim & Nancy Forest > > > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > > > > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > > > > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > > > * * * > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > > @ sign when addressing email) > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) From kathena1 at aol.com Tue Jun 24 10:59:07 2014 From: kathena1 at aol.com (Karey) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 09:59:07 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rhonda: I'm in! Janet - I'm not sure what you thought the Iraq war was fought for? Or even Vietnam? (Yes, David, we agree on something! ;) ...) And Malaysia just indicted the Bush-Cheney admin for war crimes; I'd be surprised if other countries didn't follow suit. Percy definitely didn't see America through rose-colored glasses. He kinda thought we were going to hell in a handbasket. One of his most important themes is social criticism - not only the generic postmodernism of the 20th century West (a big one), but particular political and social issues of America of his day. Some of his critics have even said his themes were too contextual and that's why he's sort of faded in the 21st century - I don't think so though. Look at the Knotheads and the Leftpapas. The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. Smart guy that Percy. Karey Sent from my iPad On Jun 23, 2014, at 10:11 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: Janet, Oh how I wish I could see things as you do. I fear, though, that I am more cynical, and I perceive that Percy was too. The Death-Dealing Death-Loving 20th century as moved into the 21st with no respite. If we are merely altruistic as a nation, how is it that we let genocide go unchecked in places like Myanmar? I fear our interests are often (always?) control by corporate interests and lobbyists. The days of the knotheads are here. Let us hope we survive them. ps--it'd be fun to do a slow read of Love in the Ruins together on the list. Maybe we could spark up a little life? Anyone in? Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 23, 2014, at 7:54 AM, "janetcantor37--- via Percy-L" wrote: > > David, > I know the Percy Lists are supposed to try to avoid the political but you offered the Percy quote in response to my comment and I feel a need to have my say. I find it interesting that Coriolanus, my favorite Shakespeare play, is used by both goodies and baddies to justify their personal choices. > > We fought in Korea and the president stopped the fighting and did not allow the fight to continue into the north. Where would Koreans prefer to live, in South Korea or North Korea? > Americans do not fight to gain territory or to takeover countries. We fight to try to give others the chance to have liberty. We may differ on when it is our fight. > If a cancer invades, it is something that is either fought or it kills. Islamism and Communism are the cancers. > > So we may differ on whether something is our fight or not, or in how the fight is fought, but, please, let us at least agree that America represents the goodies and not the cancer. > Janet Cantor > > > > > From: "Beck, David A" > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Janet, > I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been > for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since > Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, > roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the > blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the > chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) > > -David > > > > Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > > > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to > > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is > > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since > > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a > > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the > > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I > > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? > > Janet Cantor > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Jim Forest > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM > > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > > > > > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal > > > > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war > > > > The American War > > > > by Walker Percy > > > > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in > > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War > > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high > > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! > > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly > > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may > > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians > > have achieved > > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from > > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. > > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; > > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. > > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles > > the reader's > > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as > > well. > > > > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it > > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that > > the South > > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an > > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my > > experience, that > > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among > > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on > > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to > > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the > > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I > > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. > > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama > > had heard > > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time > > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not > > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during > > the World > > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the > > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. > > > > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South > > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for > > the first > > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, > > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be > > held off and > > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. > > The bigger > > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks > > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. > > > > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be > > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great > > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? > > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the > > Event into > > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside > > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is > > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been > > ossified > > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and > > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to > > Washington than to > > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what > > exactly has > > been recovered? > > > > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics > > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the > > fight itself. > > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and > > Lee in the > > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said > > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, > > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the > > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a > > look at the > > fight itself. > > > > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet > > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat > > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came > > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties > > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and > > more than > > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, > > 2,300,000 > > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total > > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, > > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible > > September 17 > > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 > > when, beginning > > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 > > men a day > > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men > > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one > > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. > > > > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army > > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in > > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action > > took place > > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal > > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this > > grim beauty > > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing > > his, battle flags flying. "It is > > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of > > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad > > was the fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, > > Union and > > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no > > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost > > invincible; when > > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly > > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union assault on > > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. > > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, > > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day > > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they > > could no longer run over them. > > > > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon > > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she > > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx. A Con?federate > > courier loses some > > battle orders; they are found wrapped around three cigars and > > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle > > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the > > fascinating game of > > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if > > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) > > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at > > Gettysburg? > > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were > > always just > > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. > > > > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, > > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit > > and so pass > > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when > > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, > > sent Jackson > > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and > > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's > > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the > > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at > > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling > > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, > > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. > > > > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a > > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent > > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have > > been notable, > > but they would not have approached the terror and piteousness of > > what actually did happen. The > > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt > > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides > > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. > > > > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was > > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a > > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace > > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that > > some of the > > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the > > peace a long descent into mediocrity. In > > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his > > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was > > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was > > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden > > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's > > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of > > the Army of > > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: > > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in > > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at > > his mercy. > > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the > > ruined South, > > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all > > other times, even the future. > > > > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any > > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own > > literature > > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New > > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce > > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing the > > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of > > individuals, when > > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself > > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite > > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He > > carried into > > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with > > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a > > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He > > actually did > > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. > > > > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil > > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the > > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also > > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to > > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be > > discounted > > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the > > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow > > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one > > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism > > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. > > > > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of > > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too > > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of > > Democracy > > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army > > and perhaps > > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over > > slavery. But the > > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who > > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern > > Virginia as > > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a > > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was > > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South > > might even > > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to > > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American > > Union. > > > > * * * > > Jim & Nancy Forest > > > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > > > > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > > > > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > > > * * * > > -- > > An archive of all list discussion is available at > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > > @ sign when addressing email) > > > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Tue Jun 24 21:00:36 2014 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 21:00:36 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20140624210036.qi8qecsn40gsokso@webmail.iu.edu> I agree, Karey (did I just say that?). Seriously, though, I posted the opening to LIR, because, while it is a work of fiction, it shows that Percy saw where we were headed--in Karey's words, "hell in a handbasket." It seems to me--just off the top of my head--that his concern was not a right or left one, but one that concerned our "culture of death." I need to re-read Fr. Smith's "sermons" from the fire tower (it's been awhile). But I don't think he saw us as the "city on the hill." I think he had some legit concerns. He obviously saw and showed how easily we can "fall asleep at the wheel", with our endless distractions. -David Quoting Karey via Percy-L : > Rhonda: I'm in! > > Janet - I'm not sure what you thought the Iraq war was fought for? > Or even Vietnam? (Yes, David, we agree on something! ;) ...) And > Malaysia just indicted the Bush-Cheney admin for war crimes; I'd be > surprised if other countries didn't follow suit. > > Percy definitely didn't see America through rose-colored glasses. He > kinda thought we were going to hell in a handbasket. One of his most > important themes is social criticism - not only the generic > postmodernism of the 20th century West (a big one), but particular > political and social issues of America of his day. Some of his > critics have even said his themes were too contextual and that's why > he's sort of faded in the 21st century - I don't think so though. > Look at the Knotheads and the Leftpapas. The Knots ARE the Tea > Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. > > Smart guy that Percy. > > Karey > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 23, 2014, at 10:11 AM, RHONDA MCDONNELL > wrote: > > Janet, > > Oh how I wish I could see things as you do. I fear, though, that I am > more cynical, and I perceive that Percy was too. The Death-Dealing > Death-Loving 20th century as moved into the 21st with no respite. If > we are merely altruistic as a nation, how is it that we let genocide > go unchecked in places like Myanmar? I fear our interests are often > (always?) control by corporate interests and lobbyists. The days of > the knotheads are here. Let us hope we survive them. > > ps--it'd be fun to do a slow read of Love in the Ruins together on > the list. Maybe we could spark up a little life? Anyone in? > > Rhonda > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jun 23, 2014, at 7:54 AM, "janetcantor37--- via Percy-L" >> wrote: >> >> David, >> I know the Percy Lists are supposed to try to avoid the political >> but you offered the Percy quote in response to my comment and I feel >> a need to have my say. I find it interesting that Coriolanus, my >> favorite Shakespeare play, is used by both goodies and baddies to >> justify their personal choices. >> >> We fought in Korea and the president stopped the fighting and did >> not allow the fight to continue into the north. Where would Koreans >> prefer to live, in South Korea or North Korea? >> Americans do not fight to gain territory or to takeover countries. >> We fight to try to give others the chance to have liberty. We may >> differ on when it is our fight. >> If a cancer invades, it is something that is either fought or it >> kills. Islamism and Communism are the cancers. >> >> So we may differ on whether something is our fight or not, or in how >> the fight is fought, but, please, let us at least agree that America >> represents the goodies and not the cancer. >> Janet Cantor >> >> >> >> >> From: "Beck, David A" >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> >> Janet, >> I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been >> for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since >> Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, >> roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the >> blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the >> chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) >> >> -David >> >> >> >> Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : >> >> > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to >> > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is >> > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since >> > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a >> > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the >> > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I >> > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? >> > Janet Cantor >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Jim Forest >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM >> > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> > >> > >> > >> > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal >> > >> > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war >> > >> > The American War >> > >> > by Walker Percy >> > >> > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in >> > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books >> on the War >> > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high >> > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby >> Foote's Shiloh! >> > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly >> > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The >> race issue may >> > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians >> > have achieved >> > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from >> > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the >> same battle. >> > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's >> generalship; >> > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the >> Northern soldier. >> > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles >> > the reader's >> > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this >> is just as >> > well. >> > >> > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it >> > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that >> > the South >> > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and >> is due to an >> > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my >> > experience, that >> > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds >> himself among >> > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner >> insists on >> > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly >> willing to >> > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he >> feels for the >> > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I >> > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the >> twenties. >> > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama >> > had heard >> > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but >> every time >> > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not >> > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during >> > the World >> > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a >> donnybrook with the >> > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. >> > >> > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South >> > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for >> > the first >> > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering >> and hatred, >> > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be >> > held off and >> > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. >> > The bigger >> > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one >> day he looks >> > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. >> > >> > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be >> > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great >> > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of >> recollection, of in? >> > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the >> > Event into >> > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside >> > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain >> circumstances, there is >> > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been >> > ossified >> > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and >> McClellan and >> > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to >> > Washington than to >> > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what >> > exactly has >> > been recovered? >> > >> > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics >> > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the >> > fight itself. >> > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and >> > Lee in the >> > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little >> was said >> > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against >> brother, >> > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring >> emphasis for the >> > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a >> > look at the >> > fight itself. >> > >> > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet >> > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its >> Federal gunboat >> > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came >> > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties >> > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and >> > more than >> > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, >> > 2,300,000 >> > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total >> > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer >> concentrated fury, >> > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible >> > September 17 >> > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 >> > when, beginning >> > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 >> > men a day >> > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over >> 8,000 men >> > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the >> West which one >> > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. >> > >> > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army >> > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being >> caught up in >> > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action >> > took place >> > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, >> a personal >> > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this >> > grim beauty >> > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire >> army facing >> > his, battle flags flying. "It is >> > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of >> > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad >> > was the fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, >> > Union and >> > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no >> > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost >> > invincible; when >> > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly >> > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union assault on >> > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. >> > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, >> > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they >> attacked all day >> > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead >> that they >> > could no longer run over them. >> > >> > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon >> > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she >> > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx. A Con?federate >> > courier loses some >> > battle orders; they are found wrapped around three cigars and >> > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle >> > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the >> > fascinating game of >> > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if >> > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton >> detectives) >> > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at >> > Gettysburg? >> > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were >> > always just >> > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. >> > >> > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, >> > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit >> > and so pass >> > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was >> Chancellorsville when >> > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, >> > sent Jackson >> > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and >> attacked and >> > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's >> > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the >> > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at >> > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead >> of falling >> > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past >> three years, >> > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. >> > >> > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a >> > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been >> just competent >> > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have >> > been notable, >> > but they would not have approached the terror and piteousness of >> > what actually did happen. The >> > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue >> hardly in doubt >> > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with >> both sides >> > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. >> > >> > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was >> > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that >> the things a >> > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable >> as the peace >> > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that >> > some of the >> > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser >> man, found the >> > peace a long descent into mediocrity. In >> > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, >> revealing his >> > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If >> a man was >> > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was >> what he was >> > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and >> his hidden >> > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by >> having Lee's >> > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of >> > the Army of >> > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: >> > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in >> > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at >> > his mercy. >> > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the >> > ruined South, >> > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to >> discount all >> > other times, even the future. >> > >> > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any >> > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own >> > literature >> > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New >> > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce >> > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing the >> > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of >> > individuals, when >> > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? >> thing in itself >> > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite >> > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He >> > carried into >> > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually >> killed men with >> > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by >> parading a >> > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He >> > actually did >> > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. >> > >> > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil >> > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic >> recovery of the >> > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet >> there is also >> > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the >> past seems to >> > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be >> > discounted >> > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the >> > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow >> > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath >> after its one >> > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same >> romanticism >> > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. >> > >> > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of >> > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply >> ideology too >> > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of >> > Democracy >> > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army >> > and perhaps >> > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over >> > slavery. But the >> > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who >> > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern >> > Virginia as >> > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a >> > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil >> which was >> > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South >> > might even >> > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to >> > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, >> the American >> > Union. >> > >> > * * * >> > Jim & Nancy Forest >> > >> > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> > >> > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ >> > >> > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com >> > >> > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ >> > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ >> > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ >> > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ >> > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org >> > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ >> > >> > * * * >> > -- >> > An archive of all list discussion is available at >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add >> > @ sign when addressing email) >> >> >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add >> @ sign when addressing email) >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add >> @ sign when addressing email) > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > @ sign when addressing email) > From wriddick at usa.net Wed Jun 25 10:17:40 2014 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:17:40 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 5916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 11:21:48 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:21:48 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Message-ID: <53aae933.a5bdec0a.2266.ffffff05@mx.google.com> Dear Mr Beck Its the 50th anniversary of Freedom summer Take it in! For a moment don't think Humans are messy And the good doctor knew it Better than most! Take care and remember to remember Sent from my Windows Phone -----Original Message----- From: "Beck, David A" Sent: ?6/?23/?2014 8:20 AM To: "percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Janet, I'm not sure we are a "shining light to the world" anymore or have been for a long time. Our credibility has been on a downhill slide since Viet Nam. I'm more apt to remember Percy's analogy of the old, rusting, roller coaster at the beginning of Love in the Ruins: "now [is]the blessing [on the U.S.A.] or the luck is over, the machinery clanks, the chain catches hold, and the cars jerk forward?" (I love that passage.) -David Quoting janetcantor37--- via Percy-L : > How lovely to read this now. But how sad because I am beginning to > think that this is becoming obsolete thinking these days. There is > more race rancor in our conversation today than I can remember since > the 60's. It shouldn't be this way. I wish it were not so. We have a > great country. I hope we don't lose it because we are asleep at the > switch. It is a country worth saving, a shining light to the world. I > wonder what Percy would be saying about current attitudes? > Janet Cantor > > > ________________________________ > From: Jim Forest > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:04 AM > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > from the March 29, 1957 issue of Commonweal > ? > https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/american-war > ? > The American War > ? > by Walker Percy > ? > WHAT ARE THE reasons for the current revival of interest in > the Civil War? That there is such a revival is undeniable. Books on the War > pour off the presses every week?some of them, incidentally, of a very high > order, such as Bruce Catton's This Hallowed Ground and Shelby Foote's Shiloh! > What is at once noticeable about the current literature is its frankly > non-political character and the absence of the old rancor. The race issue may > be still very much an issue, but Northern and Southern historians > have achieved > a common view of the War itself. When Catton from Michigan and Foote from > Mississippi write about the battle of Shiloh, it sounds like the same battle. > Catton is never more eloquent than when he is appraising Lee's generalship; > Foote is just as impressed by the fighting qualities of the Northern soldier. > Indeed, from this distance the underdog psychology probably kindles > the reader's > enthusiasm more readily than do the social issues?and perhaps this is just as > well. > ? > The general impression outside the South seems to be that it > is the rest of the country which has rediscovered the Civil War, that > the South > has never stopped looking back. This is mistaken, I believe, and is due to an > understandable optical illusion. The truth is, at least in my > experience, that > the Southerner never thinks about the Civil War?until he finds himself among > Northerners. Then, for some reason-perhaps because the Northerner insists on > casting him in his historical role and the Southerner is perfectly willing to > oblige, or because, lost in the great cities of the North, he feels for the > first time the need of his heritage?he breaks out the Stars and Bars. I > remember traveling from Alabama to summer camp in Wisconsin in the twenties. > The train would stop in Chicago to pick up more boys. We from Alabama > had heard > as little about the Civil War as the Boer War and cared less, but every time > the Illinois boys got on in Chicago the War started, a real brawl yet not > really bad-tempered. The same sort of thing must have happened during > the World > War I when an Alabama division suddenly found itself in a donnybrook with the > Fighting 69th at Plattsburg. > ? > The truth of it is, I think, that the whole country, South > included, is just beginning to see the Civil War whole and entire for > the first > time. The thing was too big and too bloody, too full of suffering and hatred, > too closely knit into the fabric of our meaning as a people, to be > held off and > looked at-until now. It is like a man walking away from a mountain. > The bigger > it is, the farther he's got to go before he can see it. Then one day he looks > back and there it is, this colossal thing lying across his past. > ? > A history of the shifting attitudes toward the War would be > enlightening. There would probably emerge a pattern common to such great > events, a dialectic of loss-recovery: the long period of recollection, of in? > tense partisan interest which is followed by a gradual fading of the > Event into > a dusty tapestry. (Lee and Grant at Appomattox taking their place beside > Washington Crossing the Delaware.) Then under certain circumstances, there is > the recovery. Perhaps Washington will never be recovered, having been > ossified > too long in grammar school tableaus. But Lincoln and Grant and McClellan and > even the legendary Lee, who after all are closer in time to > Washington than to > us, have come very much alive. Why, then, their recovery, and what > exactly has > been recovered? > ? > WHAT HAS been recovered, it seems clear, is not the politics > or the sociology of the War, nor even the slavery issue, but the > fight itself. > The tableau I remember from school was the Reconciliation, Grant and > Lee in the > McLean house, Lee healing the wounds at Washington College. Little was said > about the War, except that it was tragic; brother fighting against brother, > etc. Undoubtedly this was the necessary if somewhat boring emphasis for the > textbooks. Now, after ninety years of Reconciliation, we can take a > look at the > fight itself. > ? > What a fight it was! The South is a very big place, yet > there is hardly a district that didn't have its skirmish, its Federal gunboat > sunk in a bayou?where some old-timer won't tell you, "Yes, they came > through here." It is startling to realize that there were more casualties > in the Civil War than in all the American forces of World War II, and > more than > in all other American wars put together. Of 3,000,000 men under arms, > 2,300,000 > for the Union, 750,000 for the Con? federacy, 618,222 died, with total > casualties probably going well past a million. For sheer concentrated fury, > there are few events even in modern warfare to equal that terrible > September 17 > at Antietam Creek when over 20,000 men fell?or the May-June of '64 > when, beginning > with the battle of the Wilderness, Grant lost on the average of 2,000 > men a day > for 30 days, culminating in the slaughter at Cold Harbor when over 8,000 men > fell in about ten minutes! There were murderous battles in the West which one > never heard of, like Stone's River with over 25,000 casualties. > ? > Yet terrible as it was, it is impossible to read of the Army > of Northern Virginia or of the Army of the Potomac without being caught up in > the tremendous drama. The armies were big enough so that the action > took place > on an epic scale, yet the War was, as much as were the Punic Wars, a personal > encounter of the opposing leaders. Lee was very much aware of this > grim beauty > when the fog rose over Fredericksburg showing Burnside's entire army facing > his, battle flags flying.? "It is > well that war is so terrible,? he said; "else we should grow too fond of > it." But what gave the Civil War the tragic proportions of the Iliad? > was the? fact, apparent after Shiloh, that the American soldier, > Union and > Confederate, was not going to be beaten until he could literally fight no > longer or was killed. When his leader was great, he was almost > invincible; when > his leader was mediocre, he was still superb. Pickett's charge is justly > famous, but just as heartbreaking was the Union? assault on > Longstreet's position in the sunken road at Fredericksburg. > The difference was that where Pickett?s men had every confidence in Lee, > Couch's men knew very well that Burnside was wrong. Yet they attacked all day > long, and only stopped when the field was piled so high with dead that they > could no longer run over them. > ? > AS IN ALL tragedies, a great deal seemed to de? pend upon > fate. Small mischances become as important as Thetis?s oversight when she > dipped Achilles?all but his heel?into the Styx.? A Con?federate > courier? loses some > battle orders;? they? are found wrapped? around? three cigars and > brought to McClellan; the direct result is the battle > of Antietam. One can't read of that war without playing the > fascinating game of > what-if.... What if Jackson had lived through Chancellorsville? What if > McClellan had listened to Phil Kearny (instead of the Pinkerton detectives) > during the Seven Days? What if Jeb Stuart had tended to business at > Gettysburg? > Lee was always just missing his Cannae and Lincoln's generals were > always just > short of ordinary competence?until he got Grant. > ? > Besides the great failures, there were the great successes, > the heroes' deeds which are always irresistible to the human spirit > and so pass > over immediately into the legend of the race. There was Chancellorsville when > Lee, facing Hooker's 85,000, divided his battered army of 43,000, > sent Jackson > to the left, leaving him in front of Hooker with 17,000 men?and attacked and > very nearly destroyed the Army of the Potomac. There was the Union's > "Pap" Thomas's assault on Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga and the > subsequent demoralization of Bragg. And there was the fateful decision at > Spotsylvania when, after taking a fearful mauling, Grant, instead of falling > back toward Washington as the army had been doing for the past three years, > re?treated south, sliding around Lee's right. > ? > Therein lies the tragedy. If Lee had been a little more or a > little less?if he had gotten his Cannae or if he had only been just competent > and been whipped by McClellan in '62?the results would still have > been notable, > but they would not have approached the terror and? piteousness of > what actually did happen. The > summer of 1864 has a Gotterdammerung quality. With the issue hardly in doubt > after Gettysburg, the fighting nevertheless increased in fury with both sides > attacking steadily, without the usual remissions between battles. > ? > YET WITH all the horror, or perhaps because of it, there was > always the feeling then, and even now as we read about it, that the things a > man lived through were somehow twice as real, twice as memorable as the peace > that followed. Peace is better than war, yet it is a sad fact that > some of the > heroes of the War, like Grant and Longstreet and many a lesser man, found the > peace a long descent into mediocrity.? In > the ordeal the man himself seemed to become more truly himself, revealing his > character or the lack of it, than at any time before or after. If a man was > secretly cowardly or secretly brave, stupid or shrewd, that was what he was > shown to be. The War infallibly discovered his hidden weakness and his hidden > strength. Hooker the braggart was reduced to impotence simply by having Lee's > small army in front of him (and understandably, for the veterans of > the Army of > the Potomac used to say to replacements fresh from victories in the West: > "Wait till you meet Bobby Lee"). Grant the ne'er-do-well matured in > defeat and became a noble and sensitive human being by having Lee at > his mercy. > It is no wonder that there was the temptation, especially in the > ruined South, > to enshrine those four years as the four years of truth and to discount all > other times, even the future. > ? > Then there were the thousand and one lesser en?counters, any > one of which, if it had happened at another time, would have its own > literature > and its own historians: the Confederate raiders, Farragut's capture of New > Orleans, the battle of the ironclads, Forrest's miniature Cannae at Bryce > Crossroads, James Andrews' stealing? the > Confederate train, and so on. It was the last of the wars of > individuals, when > a single man's ingenuity and pluck not only counted for some? thing in itself > but could conceivably a:ffect the entire issue. Forrest himself is quite > unbelievable. It is as if Launcelot had been reborn in Memphis. He > carried into > battle a cavalry saber sharpened to a razor edge and actually killed men with > it. He actually did fool a Yankee commander into surrendering by parading a > single cannon back and forth in the distance as they parleyed. He > actually did > have twenty-nine horses shot from under him. > ? > THERE IS an ambiguity about this new interest in the Civil > War. On the one hand it is the past recaptured, the authentic recovery of the > long agony during which this nation came to be what it is. Yet there is also > the temptation to yield to an historical illusion by which the past seems to > gain in stature and authenticity as it recedes and the present to be > discounted > because it is the here and now. We sense the illusion in the words of the > old-timer, "Yes, they came through here," in which it is somehow > implied that this place has existed in a long trivial aftermath after its one > day of glory. Perhaps the North is in for a mild case of the same romanticism > which the South recovered from over fifty years ago. > ? > The increased emphasis upon the fighting at the expense of > ideology is probably good. One does well, anyway, not to apply ideology too > closely to that war. James Truslow Adams can talk about the March of > Democracy > and Bruce Catton can call the Union army a truly revolutionary army > and perhaps > they are right. Perhaps the War was really and truly fought over > slavery. But the > other case can be made too. It is difficult to see the yeoman farmers who > largely made up the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of Northern > Virginia as > Southern Bourbons. The South had some reason to regard the fight as a > continuation of the American Revolution. After all it was her soil which was > being invaded and her independence which was being denied. The South > might even > have the better of the constitutional argument; yet what won out seems to > transcend all the arguments. For it is that extraordinary thing, the American > Union. > ? > * * * > Jim & Nancy Forest > > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands? > > Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > > Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com > > Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ > Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ > On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ > A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ > In Communion site: www.incommunion.org > Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ > > * * * > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add > @ sign when addressing email) -- An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Jun 25 12:37:03 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 11:37:03 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nice to "hear" from you Wade. Nice evisceration of Rand Paul! When I was an undergrad I had a great history professor for a class on the Holocaust. I don't remember his name now, as it's faded along with lots of other things, into the murkiness of the past. However, I will never forget a point he emphasized: if society goes too far right or too far left, it ends in the same place--with thugs in jackboots. Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 25, 2014, at 9:21 AM, "Wade Riddick" wrote: > > >> The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. > > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. > > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, > > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. > > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. > > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. > > What sense does that make? > > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. > > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). > > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. > > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) > > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? > > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. > > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:23:44 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 14:23:44 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8C62405E-0B51-46E9-868D-8B0C48150836@gmail.com> Sent from my iPad On Jun 25, 2014, at 12:37 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > Nice to "hear" from you Wade. Nice evisceration of Rand Paul! > > When I was an undergrad I had a great history professor for a class on the Holocaust. I don't remember his name now, as it's faded along with lots of other things, into the murkiness of the past. However, I will never forget a point he emphasized: if society goes too far right or too far left, it ends in the same place--with thugs in jackboots. > > Rhonda > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jun 25, 2014, at 9:21 AM, "Wade Riddick" wrote: >> >> >>> The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. >> >> The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. >> >> Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, >> >> 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. >> >> 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. >> >> Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. >> >> What sense does that make? >> >> It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. >> >> Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). >> >> The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. >> >> The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that fo > cuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) >> >> Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? >> >> Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. >> >> Wade Riddick >> >> 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. >> >> -- >> An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) > -- > An archive of all list discussion is available at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > Visit The Walker Percy Project at http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > Contact the moderator: percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org (note: add @ sign when addressing email) From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Thu Jun 26 09:56:06 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 13:56:06 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Well put, I say. I have had Percy's Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the 'birthers,' and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp's revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn't erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which - relatively speaking - there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South's retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 - 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson's imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of 'separate but equal'). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name ("Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ..."). This wave could grow larger - particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they'll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That's usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I like, therefore, what you said: " Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom." ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman's ironic song released during the 2012 election, I'm Dreaming of a White President (sung to the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. What sense does that make? It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. Wade Riddick 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 11:07:18 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 08:07:18 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. But, sir, you go too far. I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here.? But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. Respectfully, Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Karl M. Terrell To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Well put, I say.? I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** ?These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction.? Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations.? Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. ?? There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe.? The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?).? Racism was its height then.? The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. These things come in waves.? Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real.? It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??).? This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. ??Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over.? That?s usually what happens.? It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads.? I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition.? It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us.? It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? ?** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to the tune of White Christmas) ?Karl Montague Terrell ? From:Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War ? ? The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new.? They are, in fact, very old.? They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty.? These were enemies to the Constitution. Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us.? He believes, 1)? Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government.? This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve.? He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved).? The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand.? This is not "devaluation" per se. 2)? Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers.? He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws.? This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base.? This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments.? They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. What sense does that make? It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly).? I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death.? American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion.? She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience.? (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?")? It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same.? They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty.? Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society.? Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government.? Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond.? (Oh, God.? Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.)? A true conservative stresses social responsibility.? A true conservative doesn't lie about science.? These people aren't conservatives.? They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs.? Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery).? This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment.? (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition.? It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1].? It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? Being lost is the human condition.? It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark.? Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. Wade Riddick 1.? Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term.? You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color."? Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kfwacw at centurylink.net Thu Jun 26 21:48:16 2014 From: kfwacw at centurylink.net (Ken Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2014 21:48:16 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <773A3E804E4249ED91C73176582C64C1@KenPC> Amen to this. Let?s not forget that in Love in the Ruins Percy skewered the Left as well as the Right. All the Left?s stereotypes of the Tea Party are true ? about a minority of Tea Partiers. And all the Right?s worst stereotypes about the Left are true ? about a minority of liberals. Percy with his realistic view of human nature recognized his own sins and shortcomings, and would be still skewering his own side today, and still recognizing the decency on the other side. Ken Wilson From: janetcantor37--- via Percy-L Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Fri Jun 27 11:45:24 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 15:45:24 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in which we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per se. I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar beverages (and I would laugh right along). Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential for the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his borrowing from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for the USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the rise of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I did not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the attitudes then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just disappear) that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in your camp. You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I think spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would be appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political viewpoint. Karl Montague Terrell From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of janetcantor37--- via Percy-L Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. But, sir, you go too far. I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here. But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. Respectfully, Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Karl M. Terrell > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. What sense does that make? It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. Wade Riddick 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Fri Jun 27 13:42:17 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:42:17 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel up into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone volunteers to be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We discuss one section a week (hence the term "slow read"). The discussion leader starts each week off with an initial post reflecting on that section. As long as we remain connected to the text, I think it's fair to say that anything goes--connections to contemporary politics, politics in the 1970s, philosophy, science, Percy's other fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as follows: 1. July Fourth 2. July First 3. July Second 4. July Third 5. July Fourth (again) 6. Five Years Later So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, academic or otherwise. I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by Monday, June 30. Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for initial section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section 2 on July 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; Section 5 on July 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when the center is not holding. Is anyone else game to take on a section? Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:21 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in which we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? > > I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per se. I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar beverages (and I would laugh right along). > > Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential for the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his borrowing from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). > > I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for the USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the rise of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. > > I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I did not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the attitudes then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just disappear) that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in your camp. > > You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. > > Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I think spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would be appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political viewpoint. > > Karl Montague Terrell > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of janetcantor37--- via Percy-L > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. > > But, sir, you go too far. > > I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. > When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." > > If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. > Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. > I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. > I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here. > > But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. > Respectfully, > Janet Cantor > > From: Karl M. Terrell > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. > These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand > In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? > ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to the tune of White Christmas) > Karl Montague Terrell > > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. > > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, > > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. > > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. > > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. > > What sense does that make? > > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. > > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). > > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. > > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) > > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? > > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wppdirector at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 14:30:48 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:30:48 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] "Love in the Ruins" - Proposed Plan for Slow Reading Discussion In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53ADB858.4060609@gmail.com> Rhonda, Thank you for your leadership in proposing a plan for a "Slow Reading Discussion" of Love in the Ruins. All of us can be sure to find this a great opportunity for spirited and respectful discussion in our community as you have outlined. I, as I know all on the list do, look forward to learning the consensus of the group and welcoming with appreciation those who are willing to volunteer in initiating discussion of each section. For those not familiar with LITR, the following is the book description found on the back of the Picador edition: "Dr. Tom More is the creator of the Ontological Lapsometer, a kind of stethoscope of the human soul. With it, he embarks on an unforgettable odyssey to cure mankind's spiritual malaise. Ultimately, he begins to understand what he can never really know --- the value of life and its susceptibility to chance and ruin." Kindle, hard copy, and paperback versions are available on Amazon at: http://www.amazon.com/Love-Ruins-Walker-Percy/dp/0312243111/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403892183&sr=8-1&keywords=Love+in+the+Ruins Sincerely, Henry Mills Percy-L Manager On 6/27/14, 1:42 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel > up into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone > volunteers to be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We > discuss one section a week (hence the term "slow read"). The > discussion leader starts each week off with an initial post reflecting > on that section. As long as we remain connected to the text, I think > it's fair to say that anything goes--connections to contemporary > politics, politics in the 1970s, philosophy, science, Percy's other > fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. > > It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as > follows: > 1. July Fourth > 2. July First > 3. July Second > 4. July Third > 5. July Fourth (again) > 6. Five Years Later > > So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of > Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, > academic or otherwise. > > I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by > Monday, June 30. > > Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for > initial section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section > 2 on July 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; > Section 5 on July 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. > > To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when > the center is not holding. > > Is anyone else game to take on a section? > > Rhonda > > > Sent from my iPad > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Fri Jun 27 14:20:18 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:20:18 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If enough respond, I?ll be in for a chapter. Thank you. Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:42 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel up into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone volunteers to be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We discuss one section a week (hence the term "slow read"). The discussion leader starts each week off with an initial post reflecting on that section. As long as we remain connected to the text, I think it's fair to say that anything goes--connections to contemporary politics, politics in the 1970s, philosophy, science, Percy's other fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as follows: 1. July Fourth 2. July First 3. July Second 4. July Third 5. July Fourth (again) 6. Five Years Later So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, academic or otherwise. I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by Monday, June 30. Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for initial section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section 2 on July 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; Section 5 on July 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when the center is not holding. Is anyone else game to take on a section? Rhonda Sent from my iPad On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:21 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in which we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per se. I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar beverages (and I would laugh right along). Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential for the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his borrowing from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for the USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the rise of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I did not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the attitudes then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just disappear) that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in your camp. You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I think spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would be appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political viewpoint. Karl Montague Terrell From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of janetcantor37--- via Percy-L Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. But, sir, you go too far. I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here. But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. Respectfully, Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Karl M. Terrell > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. What sense does that make? It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. Wade Riddick 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nikkibar at aol.com Fri Jun 27 14:59:57 2014 From: nikkibar at aol.com (Garic Barranger) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:59:57 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War In-Reply-To: <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <1403795238.85072.YahooMailNeo@web126704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2FF0E09D-195D-4404-90B0-A7A6DE160508@aol.com> Perhaps you could help me out here by defining for me just what is a Tea Party Member. Nikki Barranger On Jun 26, 2014, at 10:07 AM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. > > But, sir, you go too far. > > I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. > When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." > > If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. > Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. > I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. > I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here. > > But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. > Respectfully, > Janet Cantor > > From: Karl M. Terrell > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. > These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand > In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? > ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to the tune of White Christmas) > Karl Montague Terrell > > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Wade Riddick > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. > > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, > > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. > > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. > > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. > > What sense does that make? > > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. > > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). > > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. > > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that focuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) > > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? > > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From charlescowherd at hotmail.com Fri Jun 27 14:45:01 2014 From: charlescowherd at hotmail.com (Charles Cowherd) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:45:01 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read Message-ID: All, I would love to participate in the reading of "Love in the Ruins" and to lead a weekly discussion, if necessary. ~ Charles R. Cowherd -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:00 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Walker Percy on the Cil War (RHONDA MCDONNELL) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:42:17 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel up into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone volunteers to be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We discuss one section a week (hence the term "slow read"). The discussion leader starts each week off with an initial post reflecting on that section. As long as we remain connected to the text, I think it's fair to say that anything goes--connections to contemporary politics, politics in the 1970s, philosophy, science, Percy's other fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as follows: 1. July Fourth 2. July First 3. July Second 4. July Third 5. July Fourth (again) 6. Five Years Later So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, academic or otherwise. I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by Monday, June 30. Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for initial section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section 2 on July 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; Section 5 on July 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when the center is not holding. Is anyone else game to take on a section? Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:21 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in which we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? > > I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per se. I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar beverages (and I would laugh right along). > > Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential for the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his borrowing from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). > > I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for the USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the rise of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. > > I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I did not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the attitudes then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just disappear) that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in your camp. > > You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. > > Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I think spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would be appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political viewpoint. > > Karl Montague Terrell > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > janetcantor37--- via Percy-L > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. > > But, sir, you go too far. > > I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. > When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." > > If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. > Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. > I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. > I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here. > > But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. > Respectfully, > Janet Cantor > > From: Karl M. Terrell > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. > These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand > In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? > ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released > during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to > the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell > > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Wade Riddick > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. > > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak > still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, > > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. > > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. > > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. > > What sense does that make? > > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. > > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). > > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. > > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just > the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the > obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better > society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the > responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing > but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop > me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative > stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about > science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals > hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn > America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all > corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, > consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the > cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is > the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that fo cuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) > > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? > > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 **************************************** From mhsmithjrlaw at gmail.com Fri Jun 27 15:03:07 2014 From: mhsmithjrlaw at gmail.com (Marshall Smith) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 14:03:07 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't feel qualified to lead a discussion, but would enjoy participating. Marshall Smith Lexington, Mississippi On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Charles Cowherd wrote: > All, > I would love to participate in the reading of "Love in the Ruins" and to > lead a weekly discussion, if necessary. > ~ Charles R. Cowherd > > -----Original Message----- > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:00 PM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Walker Percy on the Cil War (RHONDA MCDONNELL) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:42:17 -0500 > From: RHONDA MCDONNELL > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel up > into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone volunteers to > be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We discuss one section > a week (hence the term "slow read"). The discussion leader starts each > week > off with an initial post reflecting on that section. As long as we remain > connected to the text, I think it's fair to say that anything > goes--connections to contemporary politics, politics in the 1970s, > philosophy, science, Percy's other fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. > > It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as > follows: > 1. July Fourth > 2. July First > 3. July Second > 4. July Third > 5. July Fourth (again) > 6. Five Years Later > > So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of > Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, > academic or otherwise. > > I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by Monday, > June 30. > > Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for > initial > section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section 2 on July > 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; Section 5 on July > 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. > > To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when the > center is not holding. > > Is anyone else game to take on a section? > > Rhonda > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:21 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" > wrote: > > > > In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in which > we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and > Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? > > > > I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and > right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per > se. > I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor > Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar > beverages (and I would laugh right along). > > > > Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential for > the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his > borrowing > from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the > LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As > Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best lack > all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). > > > > I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a > political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out > of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of > political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the > Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which > initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party > (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for the > USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the > rise > of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. > > > > I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when > describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I did > not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I > can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my > ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the attitudes > then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just > disappear) > that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the > Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in > your camp. > > > > You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your > denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I > respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with > racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. > > > > Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. > I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I think > spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would be > appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again > that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political > viewpoint. > > > > Karl Montague Terrell > > > > > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > janetcantor37--- via Percy-L > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than > sullying the Lists with the mere political. > > > > But, sir, you go too far. > > > > I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I have > NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's > phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. > > When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I > told > her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may > G-d be with him." > > > > If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said here, > it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because > as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and > remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. > > Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no > liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of > liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I > would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my > motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. > > I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller > government that does not make up new rights everyday. > > I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business > of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right > to > do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the > knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that > would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome > warning > us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams > here. > > > > But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. > It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed > minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to > yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. > Please stop insulting mine. > > Respectfully, > > Janet Cantor > > > > From: Karl M. Terrell > > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the > emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others > viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** > These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist > comments, > but racism is clearly driving them. > > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of > Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history > (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t > erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively > speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out > that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to > an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to > the fantasy of the patrician South. > > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North > to > the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted > by > (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from > southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology > popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy > v > Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually > bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The > KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. > > These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but > the > Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly > obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name > (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could > grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or > maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all > blow > over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the > last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last > stand > > In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I > like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to > rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction > for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and > therein lies the possibility of freedom.? > > ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released > > during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to > > the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell > > > > > > > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > > Wade Riddick > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > > > > The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever > came about. > > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in > fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness > that > goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to > the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed > confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was > really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. > > > > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak > > still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, > > > > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs > of > the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He > believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the > moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; > money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple > fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest > rate) > can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. > > > > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to > discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business > with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of > the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse > discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood > designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who > now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession > and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never > survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of > the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker > Percy > loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. > > > > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend > the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and > then > corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. > > > > What sense does that make? > > > > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in the > South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't > be > American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship > "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for > no > other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so > openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps > and > the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense > with religious and class warfare in Europe. > > > > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed > Christianity > was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally > worshipped > psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that > just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the > building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so > many > white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians > as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson > (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). > > > > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original Tea > Party stood for no taxation without representation. > > > > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just > > the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the > > obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better > > society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the > > responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing > > but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop > > me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative > > stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about > > science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals > > hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn > > America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all > > corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, > > consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the > > cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is > > the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that fo > cuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they > are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers > have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in > need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great > example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the > sick.) > > > > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It > highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a > perspective > outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of > freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a > straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me > the > Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? > > > > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found > yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever > understood grace knows that. > > > > Wade Riddick > > > > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things > have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and > define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a > concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic > currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and > ironies for his novels. > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20140627/81f84e6f/at > tachment.html> > -------------- next part -------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 > **************************************** > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Fri Jun 27 15:16:31 2014 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:16:31 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0431A22@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> I would also be interested in participating and leading, if needed. All best, Greg Plemmons -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Charles Cowherd Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:45 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read All, I would love to participate in the reading of "Love in the Ruins" and to lead a weekly discussion, if necessary. ~ Charles R. Cowherd -----Original Message----- From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:00 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Walker Percy on the Cil War (RHONDA MCDONNELL) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:42:17 -0500 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel up into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone volunteers to be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We discuss one section a week (hence the term "slow read"). The discussion leader starts each week off with an initial post reflecting on that section. As long as we remain connected to the text, I think it's fair to say that anything goes--connections to contemporary politics, politics in the 1970s, philosophy, science, Percy's other fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as follows: 1. July Fourth 2. July First 3. July Second 4. July Third 5. July Fourth (again) 6. Five Years Later So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, academic or otherwise. I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by Monday, June 30. Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for initial section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section 2 on July 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; Section 5 on July 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when the center is not holding. Is anyone else game to take on a section? Rhonda Sent from my iPad > On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:21 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" wrote: > > In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in > which we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? > > I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per se. I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar beverages (and I would laugh right along). > > Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential > for the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his borrowing from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). > > I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for the USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the rise of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. > > I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I did not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the attitudes then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just disappear) that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in your camp. > > You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. > > Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I think spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would be appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political viewpoint. > > Karl Montague Terrell > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > janetcantor37--- via Percy-L > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than sullying the Lists with the mere political. > > But, sir, you go too far. > > I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I > have NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. > When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I > told her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may G-d be with him." > > If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said > here, it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you because as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. > Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and I would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning my motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. > I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller government that does not make up new rights everyday. > I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this > business of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right to do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome warning us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams here. > > But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with names. It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. Please stop insulting mine. > Respectfully, > Janet Cantor > > From: Karl M. Terrell > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since > the emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career > of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow didn?t erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the > North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. The KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. > These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but > the Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most nakedly obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all blow over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last stand > In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. > I like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom.? > ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released > during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to > the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell > > > > > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of > Wade Riddick > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War > > > The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever came about. > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, > in fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness that goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves to the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves was really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. > > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak > still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, > > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important > jobs of the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest rate) can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. > > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions of the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees who now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that never survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker Percy loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. > > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to > defend the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and then corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. > > What sense does that make? > > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in > the South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't be American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for no other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps and the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary sense with religious and class warfare in Europe. > > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed > Christianity was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally worshipped psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so many white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas Jefferson (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). > > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original > Tea Party stood for no taxation without representation. > > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just > the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the > obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better > society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the > responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing > but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop > me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative > stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about > science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals > hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn > America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all > corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, > consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the > cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is > the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that fo cuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently they are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a great example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the sick.) > > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. > It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me the Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? > > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's ever understood grace knows that. > > Wade Riddick > > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these linguistic currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and ironies for his novels. > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Percy-L mailing list Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l ------------------------------ End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 **************************************** * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sat Jun 28 03:08:25 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 02:08:25 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0431A22@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0431A22@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: Great news--it looks like we have the needed interest. Here's a draft of our list: > > 1. July Fourth--Rhonda McDonnell--June 29/30 > 2. July First--Karl Terrell--July 6/7 > 3. July Second--Charles Cowherd--July 13/14 > 4. July Third--Greg Plemmons--July 20/21 > 5. July Fourth (again) Anyone??? > 6. Five Years Later--Janet Cantor--Aug. 3/4 > We still need someone to take the lead for the fifth section. The rest of the book covered. Let me know if you're interested. Enjoy the weekend! Rhonda From jhforest at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 06:37:40 2014 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 12:37:40 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not able to commit to leading a section but would do my best to participate. Let's give this a new subject heading. (Slow reading of Love in the Ruins?) Jim Forest On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Marshall Smith wrote: > I don't feel qualified to lead a discussion, but would enjoy participating. > > Marshall Smith > Lexington, Mississippi > > > On Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Charles Cowherd < > charlescowherd at hotmail.com> wrote: > >> All, >> I would love to participate in the reading of "Love in the Ruins" and >> to >> lead a weekly discussion, if necessary. >> ~ Charles R. Cowherd >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:00 PM >> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 >> >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >> "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Walker Percy on the Cil War (RHONDA MCDONNELL) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 12:42:17 -0500 >> From: RHONDA MCDONNELL >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> My understanding of a slow read is that we (the list) divide the novel up >> into sections (using Percy's divisions is natural). Someone volunteers to >> be a "discussion leader" of sorts for each section. We discuss one >> section >> a week (hence the term "slow read"). The discussion leader starts each >> week >> off with an initial post reflecting on that section. As long as we remain >> connected to the text, I think it's fair to say that anything >> goes--connections to contemporary politics, politics in the 1970s, >> philosophy, science, Percy's other fiction, Percy's non-fiction, etc. >> >> It looks like (based on my kindle edition) that the sections are as >> follows: >> 1. July Fourth >> 2. July First >> 3. July Second >> 4. July Third >> 5. July Fourth (again) >> 6. Five Years Later >> >> So over a period of six weeks, we'd engage in a spirited discussion of >> Percy's novel without straining those of us busy with other projects, >> academic or otherwise. >> >> I'd happily take the first section and have an initial post up by Monday, >> June 30. >> >> Then if five others would be willing to lead sections, we'd look for >> initial >> section posts on Sunday/Monday of each following week: Section 2 on July >> 6/7; Section 3 on July 13/14; Section 4 on July 20/21; Section 5 on July >> 27/28; and Section 6 on Aug. 3/4. >> >> To me, it seems like a brilliant way to spend July during a time when the >> center is not holding. >> >> Is anyone else game to take on a section? >> >> Rhonda >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Jun 27, 2014, at 12:21 PM, "Karl M. Terrell" >> wrote: >> > >> > In Love in the Ruins, Walker Percy described an imagined America in >> which >> we ?have turned against each other.? He wrote, ?There are Left states and >> Knothead states, Left towns and Knothead towns, but no center towns.? >> > >> > I agree certainly with the comments that Percy skewered both left and >> right, and that it was not his intent to make a political statement, per >> se. >> I agree with you that, if here today, he would skewer (for example) Mayor >> Bloomberg?s attempt to regulate the cup sizes of our favorite sugar >> beverages (and I would laugh right along). >> > >> > Percy?s intent, at the political level, was to describe the potential >> for >> the disintegration of our ?beloved USA.? This is reflected in his >> borrowing >> from Yeats? The Second Coming, when first describing the situation of the >> LeftPapas and Knotheads: ?The center did not hold,? Percy described. (As >> Yeats spot-on put it, ?The ceremony of innocence is drowned / The best >> lack >> all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity?). >> > >> > I know we shouldn?t drag the discussions on this list into a >> political-bickering fest. But, Percy did create his imaginary America out >> of the cloth of the country in which he lived, and so some degree of >> political comment, I think, is fair game. He described, for example, the >> Knothead Party as derived from the ?old Republican Party,? and which >> initially called itself the Christian Conservative Constitutional Party >> (until someone pointed out the acronym ? CCCP ? is the same as that for >> the >> USSR in their alphabet). ? And so, Percy pretty accurately foresaw the >> rise >> of the Tea Party, and the center failing to hold. >> > >> > I perhaps fell victim to my own passions of the present era when >> describing my personal disagreements with the current-day Knotheads. I >> did >> not mean to offend, or drag this list into a political discussion. And I >> can certainly agree not all Tea Partiers are racist ? but I can?t avoid my >> ability to observe (being old enough to remember Jim Crow and the >> attitudes >> then openly expressed, and knowing that such attitudes don?t just >> disappear) >> that there are still plenty of racists out there. Unfortunately, for the >> Tea Party, it?s hard to deny that a lot of them have aligned themselves in >> your camp. >> > >> > You?re obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. I accept your >> denial of racist motives on the part of the Tea Party you know, and I >> respect the fact you took offense at the suggestion of being lumped with >> racist cretins. But to deny those cretins are out there is a mistake. >> > >> > Someone made the suggestion of doing a ?slow read? of LITR on this list. >> I don?t know how that works, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I >> think >> spirited comment and comparison to present-day political realities would >> be >> appropriate, but I agree ?name-calling? should be avoided, and agree again >> that it was not Percy?s intent to advocate any particular political >> viewpoint. >> > >> > Karl Montague Terrell >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> > janetcantor37--- via Percy-L >> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 11:07 AM >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> > >> > I have taken to answering some things in personal E-mails rather than >> sullying the Lists with the mere political. >> > >> > But, sir, you go too far. >> > >> > I am a Tea Party member. I know dozens of other Tea Party members. I >> have >> NEVER met or known indirectly one member who, to use President Obama's >> phrase, has a smidgeon of racism in choosing to be a Tea Party member. >> > When the president was elected, my liberal friend asked how I felt. I >> told >> her, "He is my president. I hope he does good work for the country and may >> G-d be with him." >> > >> > If it makes you feel better or superior to state what you have said >> here, >> it is a free country and I would be the last one to try to stop you >> because >> as a Tea Party member we are about protecting individual freedom and >> remembering and honoring the Constitution and thus the Bill of Rights. >> > Please, everybody, cease and desist from this name calling. I am no >> liberal in my political persuasion. But I do not impugn the motives of >> liberals. I like to think liberals want what is best for this country and >> I >> would sincerely enjoy it so much better if the left would stop impugning >> my >> motives, because, believe me, sir, I have the best motives in the world. >> > I want a return to Constitutional government, a return to smaller >> government that does not make up new rights everyday. >> > I do not believe Walker Percy would be pleased with all of this business >> of telling us what to eat, how to live, what the government has the right >> to >> do to us to keep us in line. And I will best Percy would not describe the >> knot heads as those who believe in an overweening government. I think that >> would disturb him no end. Read Father Smith in the Thanatos Syndrome >> warning >> us that "All tenderness leads to the gas chambers." I could write reams >> here. >> > >> > But I will just ask, please, stop calling others you disagree with >> names. >> It always amazes me that liberals love to consider Tea Party people closed >> minded and savage. But do they ever listen to themselves? Listen to >> yourself, for example, Mr. Terrell. I do not insult you or your motives. >> Please stop insulting mine. >> > Respectfully, >> > Janet Cantor >> > >> > From: Karl M. Terrell >> > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 9:56 AM >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> > >> > Well put, I say. I have had Percy?s Knotheads on my mind ever since the >> emergence of the Tea Party, and the ?birthers,? and all the others >> viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the White House. ** >> These folks are careful to avoid (most of the time) obvious racist >> comments, >> but racism is clearly driving them. >> > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange Career of >> Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampp?s revisionist history >> (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward teaches that Jim Crow >> didn?t >> erect himself until the 1890s, following a period in which ? relatively >> speaking ? there was a real progress in race relations. Stampp points out >> that the South?s retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to >> an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890 ? 1910 sympathetic to >> the fantasy of the patrician South. >> > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the North >> to >> the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the Negro, prompted >> by >> (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in the North to immigration >> from >> southern and eastern Europe. The sociology, anthropology and psychology >> popular at that time supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., >> Plessy v >> Ferguson?s imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually >> bankrupt notion of ?separate but equal?). Racism was its height then. >> The >> KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. >> > These things come in waves. Maybe the waves are weaker each time, but >> the >> Tea Party wave is very real. It is full of people who, at its most >> nakedly >> obvious, are like that fellow out West, Clive Bunden I think is his name >> (?Now, let me tell you another thing about the Negro ??). This wave could >> grow larger ? particularly if the GOP takes the Senate in November. Or >> maybe they?ll just make bigger asses out of themselves, and it will all >> blow >> over. That?s usually what happens. It is, after all, what happened the >> last time around, mid-century, when the segregationists made their last >> stand >> > In any event, we need Walker Percy, and his vision of the Knotheads. I >> like, therefore, what you said: ? Percy pointed to the power of irony to >> rescue us from this condition. It highlights hypocrisy and contradiction >> for us. It gives us a perspective outside of ourself to see ourselves and >> therein lies the possibility of freedom.? >> > ** I bet Percy would have loved Randy Newman?s ironic song released >> > during the 2012 election, I?m Dreaming of a White President (sung to >> > the tune of White Christmas) Karl Montague Terrell >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of >> > Wade Riddick >> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 10:18 AM >> > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Cil War >> > >> > >> > The Knots ARE the Tea Party, envisioned 30 - 40 years before they ever >> came about. >> > The knotheads - and thus the Tea Party - are not very new. They are, in >> fact, very old. They represent a strain of Southern self-righteousness >> that >> goes back well beyond the outbreak of the Civil War and trace themselves >> to >> the imagined courtliness of the planter classes who secretly believed >> confiscating the private property of black people by making them slaves >> was >> really a form of liberty. These were enemies to the Constitution. >> > >> > Rand Paul is a perfect example of the anti-liberty libertarian streak >> > still alive in the neofeudalists among us. He believes, >> > >> > 1) Defending the value of the dollar is one of the most important jobs >> of >> the federal government. This is why he's mad at the Federal Reserve. He >> believes they're devaluing money by printing dollars (ignoring for the >> moment that he's been wrong about imminent inflation for six years now; >> money behaves differently in a depression, as Keynes proved). The simple >> fact is money is a good like any other in that its price (the interest >> rate) >> can fluctuate due to demand. This is not "devaluation" per se. >> > >> > 2) Paul believes it's anti-property rights to force businesses not to >> discriminate on the basis of race (or sex or religion) when doing business >> with their customers. He's against the public accommodations provisions >> of >> the civil rights era laws. This is a David Duke-esque message of "reverse >> discrimination" or well-cultivated white Southern Christian victimhood >> designed to appeal to the militantly overprivileged rightwing Pharisees >> who >> now constitute his base. This is why all these guys talk about succession >> and state's right and nullification and other imaginary concepts that >> never >> survived the 13th and 14th Amendments. They're the sons and grandsons of >> the white citizenship councils and sovereignty commissions that Walker >> Percy >> loathed in the '60s and '70s and targeted squarely in _Love in the Ruins_. >> > >> > Combine 1 + 2: Paul believes it's a top job of the government to defend >> the value of the greenback except when the hand holding it is black and >> then >> corporation can infinitely devalue it to zero. >> > >> > What sense does that make? >> > >> > It makes plenty of sense when you realize there's a long tradition in >> the >> South dating back to before _Dred Scot_ declaring that black people can't >> be >> American citizens and thus they're free targets (Obama's citizenship >> "controversy" fits into this pattern; they don't think he's a citizen for >> no >> other reason than the color of his skin, even if they can no longer say so >> openly). I think this is why Percy was fascinated with Nazi death camps >> and >> the culture of death. American racism in the South fit in a literary >> sense >> with religious and class warfare in Europe. >> > >> > Rand Paul got his political theory from Ayn Rand who believed >> Christianity >> was for rubes and altruism was a form of delusion. She literally >> worshipped >> psychopaths for their "will" - i.e., lack of conscience. (Wouldn't that >> just tickle Goebbels who said, "Intellectual activity is a danger to the >> building of character?") It's an irony but no mere coincidence that so >> many >> white Evangelical Christians now believe the same. They're not Christians >> as much as they are Southern Nationalists in the stripe of Thomas >> Jefferson >> (an historical figure I've come to loath the more I age and read). >> > >> > The modern Tea Party pushes for voting restrictions when the original >> Tea >> Party stood for no taxation without representation. >> > >> > The fact is the modern Tea Party hates liberty. Liberty isn't just >> > the freedom to do something like speak your mind - it's also the >> > obligation to use that freedom responsibly on behalf of a better >> > society. Liberty, to paraphrase the founding fathers, is the >> > responsible exercise of self-government. Tea Party anger is nothing >> > but incoherent id, barbarian-yawping like Jim Bond. (Oh, God. Stop >> > me from having another Faulkner episode.) A true conservative >> > stresses social responsibility. A true conservative doesn't lie about >> > science. These people aren't conservatives. They're radicals >> > hell-bent on overturning campaign finance laws so they can turn >> > America into a newly reborn plantation economy where we're all >> > corporate serfs. Since the Civil War the South has had one central, >> > consistent response to economic development which is to drive down the >> > cost of labor - (infinitely to zero, in the case of slavery). This is >> > the "moonlight and magnolias" economic strategy that fo >> cuses on tax credits/giveaways to rich businessmen because apparently >> they >> are lazy and have to be paid to make money and create jobs whereas workers >> have to be punished because they work for a living and thus are, well, in >> need of punishment. (Refusing to accept matching Medicaid funds is a >> great >> example of believing it builds character to ration medical care to the >> sick.) >> > >> > Percy pointed to the power of irony to rescue us from this condition. >> It >> highlights hypocrisy and contradiction for us[1]. It gives us a >> perspective >> outside of ourself to see ourselves and therein lies the possibility of >> freedom. Listen to John Kyl on the floor of the Senate saying with a >> straight face, "This may not be a factually true statement," and tell me >> the >> Republicans aren't so lost they no longer have even irony? >> > >> > Being lost is the human condition. It's when you think you've found >> yourself all on your own that you are truly in the dark. Anyone who's >> ever >> understood grace knows that. >> > >> > Wade Riddick >> > >> > 1. Without this tension, "meaning" itself would be impossible; things >> have to be different or "contradict" to fall into he same category and >> define a term. You must have different colors like red and blue to have a >> concept of "color." Percy was probably thinking of all of these >> linguistic >> currents and eddies as he was manipulating old Southern contradictions and >> ironies for his novels. >> > >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > * Manage Your Membership: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > >> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> > >> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > * Manage Your Membership: >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > >> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> > >> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> < >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20140627/81f84e6f/at >> tachment.html >> >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13 >> **************************************** >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- *Jim & Nancy Forest* Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 09:33:09 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:09 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - A Few Logistical Recommendations from the List Administrator (Please read) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53AEC415.10703@gmail.com> Jim, you have an excellent idea in suggesting a specific subject title line for the LITR Slow Read. Rhonda, thanks for lining up the "discussion leaders." In terms of myself as Percy-L administrator, my general goals and service to the list are simply to promote smooth operation of the list logistically. I customarily, thus, set aside my own political perspectives in wishing to advance a healthy, productive community process in what I hope will always remain a democratic forum. As such, as facilitator, I welcome any comments or suggestions at anytime from Percy-L members as they relate to issues facing the entire list, as mailed to percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org . In contrast, more pointed personal disagreements between members are best handled off-line between the parties involved and should not necessarily involve me. The civility and broad-mindedness of Walker Percy, I hope, will always be our highest model of good in our exchanges, both public and private. With that understanding in mind of my role, I currently have three suggestions at this time to offer the group for optimal flow of LITR discussion: --------------------------------- 1) MESSAGE NAMING As per Jim's comment above, perhaps a good naming convention for posts would be to follow the chapter titles of LITR being discussed each week. For example, to start: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" The title of discussion can then change each time a new chapter is begun. Rhonda, you will be in the best position to start such a convention. Karl, you could then follow suit with a change to: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 2 - "July First" when you pick up with your discussion post the following week. --------------------------------- 2) REPLYING TO PREVIOUS MESSAGES For the benefit of all Percy-L members - those active in discussion or simply observing -- in replying to posted LITR topics, it may be helpful if LITR discussion members provide a beginning line in their message response indicating to whom they are replying and about what using key quotes (brevity is encouraged when it comes to quoting). --------------------------------- 3) DISCUSSION TO REMAIN UNMODERATED I foresee the LITR discussion (as in general it is) will remain unmoderated according to the Percy-L "Welcome Message," which outlines that: "The Percy-L forum is open to the discussion of all topics pertaining to the work and thought of the American novelist and philosopher Walker Percy. Students, general readers, and scholars are all welcome, as well as simply the curious. There is no standing agenda for the list except the promotion of commentary of the sort that one would expect from people with a special interest in Percy. As such, the list will remain unmoderated unless some future reason requires it. A diverse range of critical and lay perspectives is therefore welcomed, if not encouraged, as long as the manner and method of expression are responsible toward and respectful of the parties they are addressed to, as well as the interests of the larger list membership as a whole." And further, "Needless to say, both patience and tolerance are encouraged in all matters related to the list, for electronic discussion of this sort is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding, even as it provides for new channels of discussion." For a complete review of the Percy-L guidelines and basic user commands for the list, I invite members to visit; http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/discussion/listserv/listserv.guidelines.html Thank you again to our leaders, and let us look forward to some exciting reading discussion starting with Rhonda's introduction of topics on 6/29-6/30. Success with LITR may mean future slow reads of other Percy's works for the list's enjoyment. Happy reading and discussion! Henry Mills Percy-L Manager On 6/28/14, 6:37 AM, Jim Forest wrote: > I'm not able to commit to leading a section but would do my best to participate. > > Let's give this a new subject heading. (Slow reading of Love in the Ruins?) > > Jim Forest > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sat Jun 28 13:16:58 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 13:16:58 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - A Few Logistical Recommendations from the List Administrator (Please read) In-Reply-To: <53AEC415.10703@gmail.com> References: <53AEC415.10703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53AEF88A.9090102@gmail.com> I,too,have an interest in reading what others survey as they read "Love in the Ruins" I can't say that I will want to comment. Although I would agree reading some of the threads that have come my way that there seems to be a tendency towards making a campsite of " Love in the Ruins" instead of a trail. Become a pilgrim. See the world thru his words and see what arising as you read them. Watch where your thoughts come from. Who is making these opinions in your head? Watch yourself and travel lightly with no preconceived thoughts in the rucksack of your mind. Watch how you laugh and in what parts,,,,,,,and know that it is a cosmic laughter of saying Yes....... I KNOW JUST WHAT HE MEANS stand out of the way and let the good doctor tell his story he is a story teller first and we are all his characters with gratitude, Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren Stacy Berdy (614) 314-4162 cell (754) 816-7508 Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com LaurenBrdy at aol.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com On 6/28/2014 9:33 AM, Henry Mills wrote: > Jim, you have an excellent idea in suggesting a specific subject title > line for the LITR Slow Read. Rhonda, thanks for lining up the > "discussion leaders." > > In terms of myself as Percy-L administrator, my general goals and > service to the list are simply to promote smooth operation of the list > logistically. I customarily, thus, set aside my own political > perspectives in wishing to advance a healthy, productive community > process in what I hope will always remain a democratic forum. As such, > as facilitator, I welcome any comments or suggestions at anytime from > Percy-L members as they relate to issues facing the entire list, as > mailed to percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org . In contrast, more pointed > personal disagreements between members are best handled off-line > between the parties involved and should not necessarily involve me. > The civility and broad-mindedness of Walker Percy, I hope, will always > be our highest model of good in our exchanges, both public and private. > > With that understanding in mind of my role, I currently have three > suggestions at this time to offer the group for optimal flow of LITR > discussion: > > --------------------------------- > 1) MESSAGE NAMING > As per Jim's comment above, perhaps a good naming convention for posts > would be to follow the chapter titles of LITR being discussed each > week. For example, to start: > > LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" > > The title of discussion can then change each time a new chapter is > begun. Rhonda, you will be in the best position to start such a > convention. Karl, you could then follow suit with a change to: LITR > Slow Read - Chapter 2 - "July First" when you pick up with your > discussion post the following week. > > > --------------------------------- > 2) REPLYING TO PREVIOUS MESSAGES > For the benefit of all Percy-L members - those active in discussion or > simply observing -- in replying to posted LITR topics, it may be > helpful if LITR discussion members provide a beginning line in their > message response indicating to whom they are replying and about what > using key quotes (brevity is encouraged when it comes to quoting). > > > --------------------------------- > 3) DISCUSSION TO REMAIN UNMODERATED > I foresee the LITR discussion (as in general it is) will remain > unmoderated according to the Percy-L "Welcome Message," which outlines > that: > > "The Percy-L forum is open to the discussion of all topics pertaining > to the work and thought of the American novelist and philosopher > Walker Percy. Students, general readers, and scholars are all welcome, > as well as simply the curious. There is no standing agenda for the > list except the promotion of commentary of the sort that one would > expect from people with a special interest in Percy. As such, the > list will remain unmoderated unless some future reason requires it. A > diverse range of critical and lay perspectives is therefore welcomed, > if not encouraged, as long as the manner and method of expression are > responsible toward and respectful of the parties they are addressed > to, as well as the interests of the larger list membership as a whole." > > And further, "Needless to say, both patience and tolerance are > encouraged in all matters related to the list, for electronic > discussion of this sort is fraught with the potential for > misunderstanding, even as it provides for new channels of discussion." > > For a complete review of the Percy-L guidelines and basic user > commands for the list, I invite members to visit; > http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/discussion/listserv/listserv.guidelines.html > > Thank you again to our leaders, and let us look forward to some > exciting reading discussion starting with Rhonda's introduction of > topics on 6/29-6/30. Success with LITR may mean future slow reads of > other Percy's works for the list's enjoyment. > > Happy reading and discussion! > Henry Mills > > Percy-L Manager > > > On 6/28/14, 6:37 AM, Jim Forest wrote: > > I'm not able to commit to leading a section but would do my best to > participate. > > > > Let's give this a new subject heading. (Slow reading of Love in the > Ruins?) > > > > Jim Forest > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 28 17:21:27 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 14:21:27 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - A Few Logistical Recommendations from the List Administrator (Please read) In-Reply-To: <53AEF88A.9090102@gmail.com> References: <53AEC415.10703@gmail.com> <53AEF88A.9090102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1403990487.27518.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Excellent comment. I love it, especially when you tell us to watch where we laugh. I read two pages and I am already laughing. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: wppdirector at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - A Few Logistical Recommendations from the List Administrator (Please read) I,too,have an interest in reading what others survey as they read "Love in the Ruins" I can't say that I will want to comment. Although I would agree reading some of the threads that have come my way that there seems to be a tendency towards making a campsite of " Love in the Ruins" instead of a trail. Become a pilgrim. See the world thru his words and see what arising as you read them. Watch where your thoughts come from. Who is making these opinions in your head? ?Watch yourself and travel lightly with no? preconceived thoughts in the? rucksack of your mind. Watch how you laugh and in what parts,,,,,,,and know that it is a cosmic laughter of saying Yes....... I KNOW JUST WHAT HE MEANS stand out of the way and let the good doctor tell his story he is a story teller first and we are all his characters with gratitude, Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren Stacy Berdy (614) 314-4162 cell (754) 816-7508 Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com LaurenBrdy at aol.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com On 6/28/2014 9:33 AM, Henry Mills wrote: Jim, you have an excellent idea in suggesting a specific subject title line for the LITR Slow Read. Rhonda, thanks for lining up the "discussion leaders." In terms of myself as Percy-L administrator, my general goals and service to the list are simply to promote smooth operation of the list logistically.? I customarily, thus, set aside my own political perspectives in wishing to advance a healthy, productive community process in what I hope will always remain a democratic forum. As such, as facilitator, I welcome any comments or suggestions at anytime from Percy-L members as they relate to issues facing the entire list, as mailed to percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org .? In contrast, more pointed personal disagreements between members are best handled off-line between the parties involved and should not necessarily involve me.? The civility and broad-mindedness of Walker Percy, I hope, will always be our highest model of good in our exchanges, both public and private. With that understanding in mind of my role, I currently have three suggestions at this time to offer the group for optimal flow of LITR discussion: --------------------------------- 1) MESSAGE NAMING As per Jim's comment above, perhaps a good naming convention for posts would be to follow the chapter titles of LITR being discussed each week.? For example, to start: ??? LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" The title of discussion can then change each time a new chapter is begun.? Rhonda, you will be in the best position to start such a convention.? Karl, you could then follow suit with a change to: LITR Slow Read - Chapter 2 - "July First" when you pick up with your discussion post the following week. --------------------------------- 2) REPLYING TO PREVIOUS MESSAGES For the benefit of all Percy-L members - those active in discussion or simply observing -- in replying to posted LITR topics, it may be helpful if LITR discussion members provide a beginning line in their message response indicating to whom they are replying and about what using key quotes (brevity is encouraged when it comes to quoting). --------------------------------- 3) DISCUSSION TO REMAIN UNMODERATED I foresee the LITR discussion (as in general it is) will remain unmoderated according to the Percy-L "Welcome Message," which outlines that: "The Percy-L forum is open to the discussion of all topics pertaining to the work and thought of the American novelist and philosopher Walker Percy. Students, general readers, and scholars are all welcome, as well as simply the curious. There is no standing agenda for the list except the promotion of commentary of the sort that one would expect from people with a special interest in Percy.? As such, the list will remain unmoderated unless some future reason requires it. A diverse range of critical and lay perspectives is therefore welcomed, if not encouraged, as long as the manner and method of expression are responsible toward and respectful of the parties they are addressed to, as well as the interests of the larger list membership as a whole." And further, "Needless to say, both patience and tolerance are encouraged in all matters related to the list, for electronic discussion of this sort is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding, even as it provides for new channels of discussion." For a complete review of the Percy-L guidelines and basic user commands for the list, I invite members to visit; http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/discussion/listserv/listserv.guidelines.html Thank you again to our leaders, and let us look forward to some exciting reading discussion starting with Rhonda's introduction of topics on 6/29-6/30.? Success with LITR may mean future slow reads of other Percy's works for the list's enjoyment. Happy reading and discussion! Henry Mills Percy-L Manager On 6/28/14, 6:37 AM, Jim Forest wrote: > I'm not able to commit to leading a section but would do my best to participate. > > Let's give this a new subject heading. (Slow reading of Love in the Ruins?) >? > Jim Forest > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 28 17:48:32 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 14:48:32 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Colin Quinn Message-ID: <1403992112.61939.YahooMailNeo@web126703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> To all on the Lists: Today I went to see Colin Quinn in his one person show, Unconstitutional. You would think he was privy to what has been going on back and forth in our discussion since that Civil War essay by Percy that was posted. I waited for Quinn afterward and told him about the messages and that he must read Percy because his whole show is in Percy's novels. ?He promised he would. If anyone has the chance to see this show and Quinn's other HBO special, Colin Quinn, Long Story Short, do take them in. He is a genius and very much on Percy's wavelength whether he recognizes it or not. Janet Cantor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wriddick at usa.net Sat Jun 28 22:43:34 2014 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 21:43:34 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Civil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Nice to "hear" from you Wade. Nice evisceration of Rand Paul! > >When I was an undergrad I had a great history professor for a class on the >Holocaust. I don't remember his name now, as it's faded along with lots of >other things, into the murkiness of the past. However, I will never forget >a point he emphasized: if society goes too far right or too far left, it >ends in the same place--with thugs in jackboots. > Walter Dean Burnham taught me that the ideological spectrum is a bracelet. Both ends are closer to each other than the middle (and I think it's this self-righteousness). Hitler and Stalin both had death camps, both had secret police, both pretended to be democrats and had a civil religion of unquestioned authority. The opposite of a psychopath isn't a psychopath with a different agenda; it's someone with a conscious. It's like the old love/hate problem in seminars. It takes a while to get through to students that love and hate are closely related and only apathy is their opposite. From wriddick at usa.net Sat Jun 28 23:06:06 2014 From: wriddick at usa.net (Wade Riddick) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 22:06:06 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Civil War In-Reply-To: <59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 3205 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 11:02:33 2014 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:02:33 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Love in the Ruins, Book Description Message-ID: <53B02A89.6070406@gmail.com> */Love in the Ruins/**Description**(from Wikipedia)* /Love in the Ruins/ is a novel of speculative or science fiction by author Walker Percy from 1971. It follows its main character, Dr Thomas More, namesake and descendant of Sir Thomas More (author of /Utopia/), a psychiatrist in a small town in Louisiana called Paradise. Over time, the US has become progressively more fragmented, between left and right, black and white, as social trends of the 1960s run to illogical extremes. Society begins to come apart at the seams and no one except More seems to notice and no one, including him, seems particularly to care. More, a lapsed Catholic, an alcoholic, and a womanizer, invents a device that he names the Ontological Lapsometer, which can diagnose and treat the harmful mental states at the root of society's slow disintegration. However, in the wrong hands, the device can also exacerbate the problems, and a government representative, intent on getting More a Nobel Prize, seeks to put it to his own uses while More attempts to prevent a disaster. *Themes* The novel investigates and satirizes many facets of American society, including religion, sexuality, medical and scientific ethics, and race relations. As in many of Percy's other works, among them /The Moviegoer, The Second Coming/, and /The Last Gentleman/, the novel's protagonist suffers from alienation and existential doubt. But the protagonists' detachment from themselves allows for a lighter tone and often a comic distance from the world. Dr More's hyper-fragmented community allows for comic caricatures while still reflecting on the roots of society's problems. --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_in_the_Ruins Thanks, Wade, for your comments and personal insights. Looking forward to community discussion of the book, I hope the above brief description of LITR, as the delightful Percy story it is, will be helpful as we begin discussion of it with Rhonda. Thanks, Rhonda! Best, Henry Mills -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sun Jun 29 11:56:38 2014 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:56:38 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy on the Civil War In-Reply-To: References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53B03736.7000608@gmail.com> and who says we are any better or any worse??? Jim Crow was old, very old news in a new bottle... there are many ways we humans have used to say "we are better than others"...... Even the Doctor did battle with that devil Pride The Good Doctor is calling us all out......... ALL OF US to look our own selves.......... Love in the Ruin is the background noise to our foreground. We are messy and getting messier (sp) the further we fuel ourselves from thinking and our ways of knowing and thinking that thought(s) is the answer it aint!!!. We then move away from our hearts and what makes us humans humans. To notice one another? I have drank deeply of this man work and the one thing I want is for us not to frame him and explain him. Keep the ambiguity, keep the mystery alive! and Laugh at ourselves that's our melting our peeling.............its our best signal to notice ourselves??? its what he noticed and I really believe its why LITR is so funny? Now there is something to explore Laughter and how it touches us in this book? All this knothead stuff has already been masticated the question is........when are you a knothead?? Remember the very best way to change someone is to begin by your own example. Onward! On 6/28/2014 11:06 PM, Wade Riddick wrote: > > > Content-Language: en-US > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="_000_59210203e3bc4f3c99cd49b208de3754BN1PR04MB552namprd04pro_" > > > Well put, I say. I have had Percys Knotheads on my mind ever > since the emergence of the Tea Party, and the birthers, and all > the others viscerally at odds with the image of a black man in the > White House. ** These folks are careful to avoid (most of the > time) obvious racist comments, but racism is clearly driving them. > > I am currently re-reading (after 30 or more years) the Strange > Career of Jim Crow by C. Vann Woodward, and Kenneth Stampps > revisionist history (written in 1965) of Reconstruction. Woodward > teaches that Jim Crow didnt erect himself until the 1890s, > following a period in which  relatively speaking  there was a > real progress in race relations. Stampp points out that the > Souths retrospective loathing of Reconstruction was distorted to > an unwarranted extreme by histories written in 1890  1910 > sympathetic to the fantasy of the patrician South. > > There was, at that time in 1890 - 1910, growing sympathies in the > North to the situation of the white man in the South vis a vis the > Negro, prompted by (among other factors) xenophobic reactions in > the North to immigration from southern and eastern Europe. The > sociology, anthropology and psychology popular at that time > supported a racist view, as did the law (e.g., Plessy v Fergusons > imprimatur of the demonstrably unsound and intellectually bankrupt > notion of separate but equal). Racism was its height then. The > KKK re-emerged, the movie Birth of a Nation by D. W. Griffith, etc. > > > > I had forgotten about this part of Southern history and you're right > to put your finger on it. You might be interested in V.O. Key's > masterwork on Southern politics and there's also a recent work on > modern Jim Crow and the harsh drug sentencing laws and the way they're > used to strip black voting power. The names of both escape me at the > moment. Blacks use marijuana at the same rate whites do yet get sent > to prison far more often and lose their voting rights when they come > out. The sgregationists have used a million little ways to dilute > black voting power in the South (and it's got many similarities to > methods of minority control in China and the old Soviet Union; if you > put someone in prison and then out on parole you can keep them from > voting in many of these states and require written permission from the > authorities to move). > > It's a function of money, really. Cotton profits and the tariff drove > most of the myth of the Caveliers built up before the Civil War. These > were deliberate, artificial cultural distinctions that were carefully > constructed. _The New York Times_ ran a number of interesting articles > on the subject back in 2010 to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the > way. > > Government provides justice. You can't steal from voters if you can't > pervert government in some way. It's not a surprise that the rebirth > of Jim Crow occurs at the dawn of the age of large railroad trusts. > These movements need money and the best distraction for thieves is to > get the victims to attack one another (racism, sexism and other bigotry). > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kennenathens at frontier.com Sun Jun 29 13:49:42 2014 From: kennenathens at frontier.com (Ken Armstrong) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 13:49:42 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy stirs... In-Reply-To: <53B03736.7000608@gmail.com> References: <1403361151.24600.YahooMailNeo@web126702.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20140622085035.grdmkf20e88o8oow@webmail.iu.edu> <1403527763.28860.YahooMailNeo@web126701.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53B03736.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <53B051B6.50104@frontier.com> Walker Percy rides again! Nice to see the list activity and looking forward to at least following the LiTR discussion, travel plans commencing this week probably not permitting much more (much More?) than that. I like Wade's mentor's bracelet analogy and psychopath algebra. I'm not certain I follow the sentence below ending "thought(s) is the answer it ain't!!!" But since we're dishing out cliches, the one that comes to mind in relation to thought is, "There is no inevitability where there is a willingness to contemplate." A cynic looking around might say, yeah, sure, there must not be a lot of contemplating going on......but here's a chance to counter that trend. Best to all listers and remember, there's no fine for LiTRing. Ken Armstrong On 6/29/2014 11:56 AM, Lauren Stacy Berdy wrote: > and who says we are any better or any worse??? > > > Jim Crow was old, very old news in a new bottle... > > there are many ways we humans have used to say "we are better than > others"...... > > Even the Doctor did battle with that devil Pride > > The Good Doctor is calling us all out......... ALL OF US to look our > own selves.......... Love in the Ruin is the background noise to our > foreground. > We are messy and getting messier (sp) the further we fuel ourselves > from thinking and our ways of knowing and thinking that thought(s) is > the answer it aint!!!. > > We then move away from our hearts and what makes us humans humans. > To notice one another? > > I have drank deeply of this man work and the one thing I want is for > us not to frame him and explain him. > Keep the ambiguity, keep the mystery alive! and Laugh at ourselves > that's our melting our peeling.............its our best signal to > notice ourselves??? its what he noticed and I really believe its why > LITR is so funny? > > Now there is something to explore Laughter and how it touches us in > this book? > > All this knothead stuff has already been masticated the question > is........when are you a knothead?? > > Remember the very best way to change someone is to begin by your own > example. > > Onward!it The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sun Jun 29 17:40:41 2014 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 14:40:41 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" Message-ID: I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu Sun Jun 29 19:38:56 2014 From: gregory.plemmons at Vanderbilt.Edu (Plemmons, Gregory) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 23:38:56 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> The beauty of a great novel is that you can never see it for what it is, but only through your peculiar space and time-each and every time you reread it, something else shimmers through. I think I first read Love long before finishing medical school, but I immediately take a liking to meeting Dr. More again and particularly the opening section on this go-round. I trained in pediatrics, so I'm 100% biased and partial to the scene where Tom rescues that shriveled up baby with a "bottle of glucose from a loblolly twig." It seems that he chooses to do so, however, without any self-awareness, out of charity, as it just seems like the right thing to do (as opposed to making sure everyone knows he invented the lapsometer). Although he tells us all about it, so maybe he's not that's humble at all. I can't help but imagine that the "dropouts" in 2014 exiled to the island (self-exiled?) would probably be the anti-vaccination/home schooler camp of today--which I find fascinating as this group today is often comprised of both Knotheads and Liberals-some highly educated, some not, some atheists, some fundamentalists-but all of them suspicious of science, and any form of organized or rote education or government involvement. Some of my colleagues refuse to treat these families, with various arguments (public health, lack of trust in the medical profession/system). Like Dr. More, I generally never turn these folks away, and try to understand their viewpoints, my own biases, etc., but the conflict of the rights of the individual vs. the rights of the state seem as central today as ever: how does everybody get along in Paradise Estates? Just fine, it seems, until that measles outbreak.... I still can't decide if there's some subtle homophobia going on (the pederasts of New Orleans and Memphis, Homo Hijinks)-or if Dr. More is simply questioning and doubting (perhaps subconsciously) his own sexuality and masculinity. After all, he has three women camped out and waiting at the HoJo, but has his mind set on Hester, near the end of the section (interesting character name choice in itself). It makes me wonder what Walker thought of Uncle Will, and would he have evolved, or supported Uncle Will's right to marry, in 2014. Page 32 I laughed out loud at Patient#1. If you can make up a name for a syndrome (or constellation of symptoms), or measure something (in the blood, in the brain, in the spirit) why does it always make the patient feel better? Why is that? (Leslie Jameson, a contemporary essayist, has some thoughts on the matter). Is it simply the tyranny of uncertainty and ambiguity about your condition, or the hope that maybe there are others like you as well, that you are not alone in your suffering? Perhaps a little of both? Finally, the lapsometer: did anyone else besides me see the parallels between the e-meter of Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists? I think I missed that the first go-round, since I wasn't aware of Scientology the first time I read this..but obviously Dianetics was already well established by the time the novel was published: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditing_(Scientology) All best, Greg Plemmons p.s. I just want to say I've enjoyed hearing the viewpoints of everyone on this listserv over the many years (although I've been much more of a lurker for the most part). I'm absolutely delighted to be taking part in this. From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:41 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" I'd like to start be referring to Lauren's most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for "ALL OF US to look our own selves." In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy's anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he's getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, "Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!" That co-celebration was Percy's main goal. In his essay, "Notes for a Novel about the End of the World," Percy explains the novelists role: "The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over." So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy's protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can't help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, "Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet." Tom admits, "My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name." In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can't fill it? Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out-the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a "good" Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, "The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . ." At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn't rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it's pretty clear that Tom More doesn't belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don't fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment-Homo Hijinks-is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals' racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I'm not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. I'll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed-what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Mon Jun 30 08:22:18 2014 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:22:18 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> Message-ID: <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Thank you, Rhonda, for starting this slow-read discussion. It's certainly true Tom More is neither LeftPapa nor Knothead, and Percy casts his critical eye toward both (e.g., while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the "old style" ... "Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat"). His protagonist, in fact, has the "misfortune - and blessing" to "suffer from both liberal and conservative complaints, e.g., both morning terror [liberal] and large-bowel disorders [conservative]." Why that's also a "blessing" is a question I'm interested in. Makes him a better diagnostician? Or is there more to that? One reason I love Percy is the incisive humor. He delivers not only a medical diagnosis by political affiliation, but gives us bon mots like: "So it is that a small Knothead city like my hometown yonder can support half a dozen proctologists, while places like Berkeley or Beverly Hills have a psychiatrist in every block." I was first attracted so many years ago (mid 70s, in college) to his frequently wonderful sentences - like the one remembering "his heart-leaping desire for Doris, go fetch Doris, whose lip would curl at my proposal but who was nonetheless willing, who in fact now that she thought of it was as lusty as could be, her old self once again, a lusty Shenandoah Valley girl ..." - and his quirkily detailed and accurate descriptions of various character types - like the one describing the "dark, quick little Pocahontas . . . a certain kind of Smith girl, a thin moody Smithie who pops chin on knee, doesn't speak to freshman, doesn't focus her eyes, and is prone to quick sullen decisions, leaping onto her little basketed bike and riding off without explanation." His scene descriptions are wonderful also (while in the pirogue in the wee hours, "A sinking yellow moon shatters in the ripples"). I have a different take from the interesting one by Gregory on the dropouts in the swamp, which may be a generational thing. Percy published LiTR in 1971, and appears to have in mind mainly the hippie types who went native back in the day, and aspired to a communal style of living (and then pretty quickly dropped that idea, and headed off to law school). Although, the mix he describes living there on the hummocks, "rubbed bare as monkey islands at the zoo [include] . . . all manner of disaffected folk." The Bantus appears modeled after the Black Panthers, from also back in the day, as well as, intriguingly, ex-Ayn Randers. It will be interesting to read again (having forgotten) how he further develops this crowd. The question about More's longings is an interesting one. I haven't thought it through yet. But it seems somehow the flipside of the - is it 'detached irony'? - of the character, shown for example by the dialogue with the love couple and Hester toward the end of the chapter ("There's nothing wrong with sex, Doc. You shouldn't put it down." / "I don't." / It's not even the most important thing." / "It's not?" / "With us it's far down the list." / "Hm." I look at my watch. "You can take me back"). Such a rich novel. I tell everyone I know, You should read Walker Percy. But, it seems, a lot of people don't get him. Karl From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Plemmons, Gregory Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 7:39 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" The beauty of a great novel is that you can never see it for what it is, but only through your peculiar space and time-each and every time you reread it, something else shimmers through. I think I first read Love long before finishing medical school, but I immediately take a liking to meeting Dr. More again and particularly the opening section on this go-round. I trained in pediatrics, so I'm 100% biased and partial to the scene where Tom rescues that shriveled up baby with a "bottle of glucose from a loblolly twig." It seems that he chooses to do so, however, without any self-awareness, out of charity, as it just seems like the right thing to do (as opposed to making sure everyone knows he invented the lapsometer). Although he tells us all about it, so maybe he's not that's humble at all. I can't help but imagine that the "dropouts" in 2014 exiled to the island (self-exiled?) would probably be the anti-vaccination/home schooler camp of today--which I find fascinating as this group today is often comprised of both Knotheads and Liberals-some highly educated, some not, some atheists, some fundamentalists-but all of them suspicious of science, and any form of organized or rote education or government involvement. Some of my colleagues refuse to treat these families, with various arguments (public health, lack of trust in the medical profession/system). Like Dr. More, I generally never turn these folks away, and try to understand their viewpoints, my own biases, etc., but the conflict of the rights of the individual vs. the rights of the state seem as central today as ever: how does everybody get along in Paradise Estates? Just fine, it seems, until that measles outbreak.... I still can't decide if there's some subtle homophobia going on (the pederasts of New Orleans and Memphis, Homo Hijinks)-or if Dr. More is simply questioning and doubting (perhaps subconsciously) his own sexuality and masculinity. After all, he has three women camped out and waiting at the HoJo, but has his mind set on Hester, near the end of the section (interesting character name choice in itself). It makes me wonder what Walker thought of Uncle Will, and would he have evolved, or supported Uncle Will's right to marry, in 2014. Page 32 I laughed out loud at Patient#1. If you can make up a name for a syndrome (or constellation of symptoms), or measure something (in the blood, in the brain, in the spirit) why does it always make the patient feel better? Why is that? (Leslie Jameson, a contemporary essayist, has some thoughts on the matter). Is it simply the tyranny of uncertainty and ambiguity about your condition, or the hope that maybe there are others like you as well, that you are not alone in your suffering? Perhaps a little of both? Finally, the lapsometer: did anyone else besides me see the parallels between the e-meter of Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists? I think I missed that the first go-round, since I wasn't aware of Scientology the first time I read this..but obviously Dianetics was already well established by the time the novel was published: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditing_(Scientology) All best, Greg Plemmons p.s. I just want to say I've enjoyed hearing the viewpoints of everyone on this listserv over the many years (although I've been much more of a lurker for the most part). I'm absolutely delighted to be taking part in this. From: Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:41 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" I'd like to start be referring to Lauren's most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for "ALL OF US to look our own selves." In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy's anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he's getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, "Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!" That co-celebration was Percy's main goal. In his essay, "Notes for a Novel about the End of the World," Percy explains the novelists role: "The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over." So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy's protagonists. Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can't help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, "Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet." Tom admits, "My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name." In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can't fill it? Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out-the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not be a "good" Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, "The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . ." At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God doesn't rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party. But in this novel, it's pretty clear that Tom More doesn't belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the liberals don't fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment-Homo Hijinks-is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals' racism might be more subtle, but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us). I'm not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out. I'll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed-what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." Walker Percy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 10:05:41 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:05:41 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1404137141.88003.YahooMailNeo@web126703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thank you Rhonda, for suggesting this project for the Lists and for starting with your wonderful stimulating opening.? I am going to offer a long piece of my own, always with the caveat that I am not a scholar; I am merely a reader. The opening salvo in the first section of LITR is a great tour de force. I am going to comment on details and then end with a bottom line for this section from my perspective. LITR is the Fourth novel by date that Percy wrote. He dedicated it to Shelby Foote. Shelby Foote dedicated his fourth novel to Percy. The book opens and closes on July 4th, our nation's birthday. "...the outlook is not so good" is the diagnosis for our country as the book opens. I was reminded of Colin Quinn's one person show, Unconstitutional. It surprised me that Quinn had not read Percy because they were so in tune. When I told him how similar his show was to Percy's ideas, he promised to read him now. So herewith my thoughts on the first section. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Phrases I liked: Directly above, a hawk balances on a column of air rising from the concrete geometry of the cloverleaf. My scalp ...now and then pops a hair root like a dirigible popping its hawsers one by one. ...The Dutch schismatics who believe in relevance but not G-d. The vines begin to sprout in earnest...(and the whole idea of the menace of nature overtaking the ostensible order that man has contrived over our world through science and politics.)? The buzzards are lower and more hopeful...(another example of nature threatening order) (One of my favorites) ?...our private school, which was founded on religious and patriotic principles and to keep negroes out. (Percy is so funny.) All quiet in front. (a pun?) In "Love" as it is called....(the Love clinic where volunteers perform sexual acts where others can watch and learn.) Could this also be the Love in the title? American literature is not having its finest hour. The Southern gothic novel yielded to the Jewish masturbatory novel, which in turn gave way to the WASP homosexual novel, which has nearly run its course. (Percy is so funny.) The Knotheads enacted a law requiring compulsory prayers in the black schools and made funds available for birth control in Africa, Asia, and Alabama. (Alliteration only makes the joke funnier.) Paradise Estates, where I live, is a paradise indeed, an oasis of concord in a troubled land. Some of the patients got better and some of the psychiatrists got worse. (Describing a diagnosis of one patient with a high reading from his lapsometer) ?...he cannot, so to speak, reenter the lovely ordinary world. Instead he orbits the earth and himself... [and] is destined to haunt the human condition... Here began the...death by suicide of the Old Western world: white Christian Caucasian Europeans, sentimental music loving Germans and rational clear-minded Frenchmen, slaughtering each other without passion. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? And those are just a few examples in this opening section. This book is a partner to The Thanatos Syndrome with an overlap of characters and plot with that novel. so Father Smith and Max Gottlieb are in both, just to name two. In the same way, The Last Gentleman has some companionship with The Second Coming. There are many examples of themes, plot points and subjects which are echoed in other Percy novels: Percy likes to talk about birds and bird formations. Here we have the swooping Eagles, buzzards, and the Martins. In Thanatos bird formations are key in a small plot point. Percy uses the local habitat as a major character all through his novels. The observation that the mark of genius is the ability to see not one thing or another but the ability to discern connection between the two also appears in Thanatos. As do case histories. As does sodium water. As is someone watching and waiting over all he surveys. Golf and golf courses figure prominently here and in The Second Coming. In passing we read about a Creole, and remember that The Moviegoer's?Kate's father was a Creole. ?Suddenly he tells us, "I've stopped going to movies." Ha - another reminder of The Moviegoer.? Science vs. common sense is a major theme in his novels. Catholics, lapsed Catholics, Jews, people using fervor in politics to replace religion, lost souls searching for meaning in the universe, lusting after many women, three in LITR, this is an obsession of most of his male protagonists; blacks and whites and the problem of the negro in the south, these pervade Walker Percy novels. But above all, Percy is funny. I laugh out loud all the time I am reading all of his novels because of the juxtapositions of the serious and the ridiculous. Percy uses repetition a lot. It is sometimes hard to decide if it is the fault of his editors or if it is deliberate. How many times did he tell us here that his scalp was tingling with a peculiar emotion? Or how his allergy to egg whites gave him a strange feeling? Percy uses his life to fill his plot lines. His characters grapple with the same things he has. So there is the physician or psychiatrist who needs to heal himself or winds up in an institution or a prison, reminiscent of his stay in the TB ward of a hospital. Or there is the conflict of choices between the artist, the scientist and the do gooders. There is drinking and Catholicism. Percy's life enriches his writing. In this first section of the book he presents his lapsometer. As he describes what it can do, it reminds me of psychotropic drugs that can be beneficial, but have so many side effects that other drugs are necessary to combat the side effects. Atomic energy can benefit mankind, but like his lapsometer, in the wrong hands atomic energy can lead to catastrophe. We get forebodings of what has brought everything to this pass. There is unrest due to a lack of purpose, a breakdown of standards. "Our U.S.A. is in a bad way." Tom's contribution is ..."in the realm of science not sanctity." LITR examines a world where science thinks it has all the answers. We try to play G-d to fix things, to bring about Eden and we get repercussions we never envisioned. Does the disintegration of societal norms make Tom believe his lapsometer can fix things or does it contribute in the end to that disintegration? See Thanatos for more of this. I could write reams more, but I think I will stop here and just form a conclusion. So what do I see as the bottom line in this great first section of the book? I do not look for baddies merely in either the lefties or the knot heads. They are just Percy's way of being an equal opportunity mocker of all things fanatic. I think the bottom line comes from the end of Percy's essay on the Civil War. (What year did that come out?) Percy celebrates the miracle that our Constitutional Republic survived the horrors of the Civil War. Like Lincoln, he had the realization that we were only 3/4 of a century old in our magnificent and singular experiment. But we were given a reprieve and a second chance to make it last longer. Percy doesn't want us to muck it up and he wrote novels to admonish us to be careful or we might lose it all.? What he was warning against is that we should not forget our national motto E Pluribus Unum, which announces "Out of the many, one." ?(Not, as Al Gore said, hysterically enough, Out of the one, many - oy.) So Walker Percy is telling us not to imitate the patient who ?... cannot, so to speak, reenter the lovely ordinary world. Instead he orbits the earth and himself... [and] is destined to haunt the human condition... ?We should get over ourselves and join the rest, remembering what it is we have to lose; we should stop pushing ourselves into corners and calling the "others" names and separating ourselves from one another, but we should remember that it is important to celebrate together this great country's uniqueness. That does not mean we can't have healthy arguments over what we think works best and we can disagree. But we have to be careful not to paint ourselves into corners and throw away the beautiful, fragile thing we have her in a free country. This is nothing less than a harking back to Madison in the Federalist Papers where he talked about the dangers of factionalism. It is fine to believe in principles whether you are a liberal or a conservative, a Jew or a Catholic, a black or a white, but do not forget while you are at it, that we are all Americans and lucky to be so. That is what I believe is Percy's plea in his books. I will go more into detail on this when I cover the last section of the book, Five Years Later, and offer my thoughts on what I believe to be Percy's bottom line. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Now let's hear your two cents. ________________________________ From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 5:40 PM Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.?? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally.? That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!?? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists.? Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.?? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others).? What is this longing all about?? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it?? Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist.? He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .?? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him?? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party.? But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives.? I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. ?But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective.? The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present.? Is it better in its subtlety? Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us).? I?m not so sure, in either case.? If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others.? Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual.? If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out.? I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." ?? ??????????????????????????????????? Walker Percy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 30 10:09:49 2014 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 07:09:49 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> References: <5EC8B5055FCBD04E8197CAD3EA5A1FB0434CD1@ITS-HCWNEM104.ds.vanderbilt.edu> <399d3403b68e48d8aaee872cbb2672a9@BN1PR04MB552.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1404137389.6547.YahooMailNeo@web126706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Karl, this is wonderful. All of it. And look how I singled out phrases I liked and there is no overlap because he is such a wonderful writer. Always more to discover with each reading. Thank you. This is terrific. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Karl M. Terrell To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" ? Thank you, Rhonda, for starting this slow-read discussion.? ? It?s certainly true Tom More is neither LeftPapa nor Knothead, and Percy casts his critical eye toward both (e.g., while conservative Christian housewives have their maids ride in the back seat, in the ?old style? ? ?Liberal housewives make their maids ride on the front seat?).? ? His protagonist, in fact, has the ?misfortune ? and blessing? to ?suffer from both liberal and conservative complaints, e.g., both morning terror [liberal] and large-bowel disorders [conservative].?? ?Why that?s also a ?blessing? is a question I?m interested in.? Makes him a better diagnostician? Or is there more to that? ? One reason I love Percy is the incisive humor.? He delivers not only a medical diagnosis by political affiliation, but gives us bon mots like: ?So it is that a small Knothead city like my hometown yonder can support half a dozen proctologists, while places like Berkeley or Beverly Hills have a psychiatrist in every block.? ? I was first attracted so many years ago (mid 70s, in college) to his frequently wonderful sentences ? like the one remembering ?his heart-leaping desire for Doris, go fetch Doris, whose lip would curl at my proposal but who was nonetheless willing, who in fact now that she thought of it was as lusty as could be, her old self once again, a lusty Shenandoah Valley girl ?? ? and his quirkily detailed and accurate descriptions of various character types ? like the one describing the ?dark, quick little Pocahontas . . . a certain kind of Smith girl, a thin moody Smithie who pops chin on knee, doesn?t speak to freshman, doesn?t focus her eyes, and is prone to quick sullen decisions, leaping onto her little basketed bike and riding off without explanation.? ?His scene descriptions are wonderful also (while in the pirogue in the wee hours, ?A sinking yellow moon shatters in the ripples?). ? I have a different take from the interesting one by Gregory on the dropouts in the swamp, which may be a generational thing.? Percy published LiTR in 1971, and appears to have in mind mainly the hippie types who went native back in the day, and aspired to a communal style of living (and then pretty quickly dropped that idea, and headed off to law school).? Although, the mix he describes living there on the hummocks, ?rubbed bare as monkey islands at the zoo [include] . . . all manner of disaffected folk.?? The Bantus appears modeled after the Black Panthers, from also back in the day, as well as, intriguingly, ex-Ayn Randers.? It will be interesting to read again (having forgotten) how he further develops this crowd.? ? The question about More?s longings is an interesting one.? I haven?t thought it through yet.? But it seems somehow the flipside of the ? is it ?detached irony?? ? of the character, shown for example by the dialogue with the love couple and Hester toward the end of the chapter (?There?s nothing wrong with sex, Doc.? You shouldn?t put it down.? / ?I don?t.? / It?s not even the most important thing.? / ?It?s not?? / ?With us it?s far down the list.? / ?Hm.?? I look at my watch. ?You can take me back?). ? Such a rich novel.? I tell everyone I know, You should read Walker Percy.? But, it seems, a lot of people don?t get him. ? Karl ? ? From:Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Plemmons, Gregory Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 7:39 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" ? The beauty of a great novel is that you can never see it for what it is, but only through your peculiar space and time?each and every time you reread it, something else shimmers through. I think I first read Love long before finishing medical school, but I immediately take a liking to meeting Dr. More again and particularly the opening section on this go-round. I trained in pediatrics, so I?m 100% biased and partial to the scene where Tom rescues that shriveled up baby with a ?bottle of glucose from a loblolly twig.? It seems that he chooses to do so, however, without any self-awareness, out of charity, as it just seems like the right thing to do (as opposed to making sure everyone knows he invented the lapsometer). Although he tells us all about it, so maybe he?s not that?s humble at all. ? I can?t help but imagine that the ?dropouts? in 2014 exiled to the island (self-exiled?) would probably be the anti-vaccination/home schooler camp of today--which I find fascinating as this group today is often comprised of both Knotheads and Liberals?some highly educated, some not, some atheists, some fundamentalists?but all of them suspicious of science, and any form of organized or rote education or government involvement. Some of my colleagues refuse to treat these families, with various arguments (public health, lack of trust in the medical profession/system). Like Dr. More, I generally never turn these folks away, and try to understand their viewpoints, my own biases, etc., but the conflict of the rights of the individual vs. the rights of the state seem as central today as ever: how does everybody get along in Paradise Estates? Just fine, it seems, until that measles outbreak?. ? I still can?t decide if there?s some subtle homophobia going on (the pederasts of New Orleans and Memphis,Homo Hijinks)?or if Dr. More is simply questioning and doubting (perhaps subconsciously) his own sexuality and masculinity. After all, he has three women camped out and waiting at the HoJo, but has his mind set on Hester, near the end of the section (interesting character name choice in itself). It makes me wonder what Walker thought of Uncle Will, and would he have evolved, or supported Uncle Will?s right to marry, in 2014. ? Page 32 I laughed out loud at Patient#1. If you can make up a name for a syndrome (or constellation of symptoms), or measure something (in the blood, in the brain, in the spirit) why does it always make the patient feel better? Why is that? (Leslie Jameson, a contemporary essayist, has some thoughts on the matter). Is it simply the tyranny of uncertainty and ambiguity about your condition, or the hope that maybe there are others like you as well, that you are not alone in your suffering? Perhaps a little of both? ? Finally, the lapsometer: did anyone else besides me see the parallels between the e-meter of Ron Hubbard and the Scientologists? I think I missed that the first go-round, since I wasn?t aware of Scientology the first time I read this..but obviously Dianetics was already well established by the time the novel was published: ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditing_(Scientology) ? All best, Greg Plemmons ? p.s. I just want to say I?ve enjoyed hearing the viewpoints of everyone on this listserv over the many years (although I?ve been much more of a lurker for the most part). I?m absolutely delighted to be taking part in this. ? From:Percy-L [mailto:percy-l-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:41 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" ? I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own selves.?? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not examine his work communally.? That, however, is contrary to Percy?s anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, yes, that is how it is with me, too!?? That co-celebration was Percy?s main goal. ? In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? ? So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our previous discussions: ? The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists.? Tom More is a beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not yet.?? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit on longing in this novel (and his others).? What is this longing all about?? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it?? ? Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist.? He may not be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .?? At his present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him?? Certainly, God doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, music, science, and whiskey. ? On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis the Tea Party.? But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the conservatives.? I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads.? But the liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above the fighting) perspective.? The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, but it is still present.? Is it better in its subtlety? ? Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still with us).? I?m not so sure, in either case.? If Percy was anything like his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues and conservative on others.? Perhaps he was more concerned with the individual.? If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the rest of it might sort itself out.? I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker watching the news? ? --Rhonda "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea of who he is or what he is doing." ?? ??????????????????????????????????? Walker Percy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhforest at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 11:30:06 2014 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2014 17:30:06 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] LITR Slow Read - Chapter 1 - "July Fourth" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A brief quote from Walker Percy that sheds a little light about what is is up to in LITR (and in his fiction as a whole): "The novelist writes about the coming end in order to warn about present ills and so avert the end.... [but he] is less like a prophet than he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over..." -- from "Notes for a Novel About the End of the World" Jim On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 11:40 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > I?d like to start be referring to Lauren?s most recent post. In it she > makes a great point: Percy is calling for ?ALL OF US to look our own > selves.? In the same post, though, she also seems to urge us to not > examine his work communally. That, however, is contrary to Percy?s > anthropology. The intersubjectivity of the communal experience is what he > was after. So if we read the novel together, no matter how far apart we may > be geographically, and discuss what in it speaks to us, what we each think > he?s getting at, we can have that affirming moment, where we say, ?Yes, > yes, that is how it is with me, too!? That co-celebration was Percy?s > main goal. > > > In his essay, ?Notes for a Novel about the End of the World,? Percy > explains the novelists role: ?The wounded man has a better view of the > battle than those still shooting. The novelist is less like a prophet than > he is like the canary that coal miners used to take down into the shaft to > test the air. When the canary gets unhappy, utters plaintive cries, and > collapses, it may be time for the miners to surface and think things over.? > > > So I turn my thoughts to the opening chapter, partly in light of our > previous discussions: > > > The novel opens with Tom More above the battle, so to speak, and watching > and waiting, like many of Percy?s protagonists. Tom More is a > beautifully flawed narrator, and I can?t help but see him in the mold of > St. Augustine who prayed, ?Lord, grant me chastity and continence, but not > yet.? Tom admits, ?My life is a longing, longings for women, for the > Nobel Prize, for the hot bosky bite of bourbon whiskey, and other great > heart-wrenching longings that have no name.? In fact, he dwells quite a bit > on longing in this novel (and his others). What is this longing all > about? Is it the sensual longings he identifies or is more hiding behind > it so that women, bourbon, the Nobel Prize can?t fill it? > > > Tom is unique in his society, being neither Left nor Knothead. Instead, he > is the odd man out?the true believer who is also a scientist. He may not > be a ?good? Catholic, yet, as he asserts, he believes. And his belief is > not the watered down belief of Catholicism steeped in scientific humanism. > No, he makes the point that he believes the mystery and miracle of it. Tom > remembers, ?The best of times were after mass on summer evenings when > Samantha and I would walk home in the violet dusk, we having received > Communion and I rejoicing afterwards, caring nought for my fellow Catholics > but only for myself and Samantha and Christ swallowed, remembering what he > promised me for eating him, that I would have life in me . . .? At his > present time, though, Tom is no longer taking Communion, which leads to the > question: Despite his avowed belief, is Christ in him? Certainly, God > doesn?t rank particularly high on his priority list, coming after women, > music, science, and whiskey. > > > On the list, a lot of discussion has been focused on Knotheads vis-a-vis > the Tea Party. But in this novel, it?s pretty clear that Tom More > doesn?t belong to the liberals any more than he belongs to the > conservatives. I imagine that overall, the list leans liberal, so the > tendency is to focus on the criticisms of the Knotheads. But the > liberals don?t fare any better in this novel, not from an objective (above > the fighting) perspective. The liberal entertainment?Homo Hijinks?is a > pretty good prediction of the direction of contemporary entertainment > (e.g., Shades of Gray and the rest of the mommy porn). And, in truth, > everyone in the novel is racist. The liberals? racism might be more subtle, > but it is still present. Is it better in its subtlety? > > > Most folks who have been commenting lately, whether liberal or > conservative, want to claim Percy as being in their camp (if he were still > with us). I?m not so sure, in either case. If Percy was anything like > his character, Tom, he was somewhere in the middle, liberal on some issues > and conservative on others. Perhaps he was more concerned with the > individual. If the sundered selves of modern people could be mended, the > rest of it might sort itself out. > > I?ll come to a close, though much more remains to be discussed?what about > all of the dropouts in the swamp? What about Tom being the only doctor that > will treat the dropouts? What about the vines? What about Charley Parker > watching the news? > > --Rhonda > > "You live in a deranged age, more deranged than usual, because in spite of > great scientific and technological advances, man has not the faintest idea > of who he is or what he is doing." > > Walker Percy > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- *Jim & Nancy Forest* Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands Jim's books: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/sets/ Photo collections: www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/collections/ On Pilgrimage blog: http://jimandnancyonpilgrimage.blogspot.com/ A Tale of Two Kidneys blog: http://ataleof2kidneys.blogspot.com/ In Communion site: www.incommunion.org Forest-Flier Editorial Services: http://forestflier.com/ * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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