From steve.petrica at gmail.com Sat May 2 12:05:58 2015 From: steve.petrica at gmail.com (Steve Petrica) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 11:05:58 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Not *really* off-topic: Percy's mint julep recipe Message-ID: >From the "Business Insider" website yesterday: Walker Percy was a great, cosmopolitan southern novelist and essayist who > died in 1990. > Born in Alabama, he lived much of his life in Covington, a town near New > Orleans. > That's pretty far from Kentucky and the annual Run for the Roses, which > takes place on Saturday at the magnificent Churchill Downs racetrack. > But the signature drink of the Derby, the first leg of the Triple Crown, > is the mint julep. And Walker Percy knew mint juleps. > As it turns out, the recipe for [an] elegant and literary julep comes from > Percy, who won the National Book Award for his very first novel, "The > Moviegoer," and who for a generation of readers defined a post-William > Faulkner variety of thoughtful southern writing. I first encountered > Percy's recipe back in the 1980s, when I picked up a collection of his > essays, "Signposts in a Strange Land." > You need excellent Bourbon whiskey; rye or Scotch will not do. Put half an > inch of sugar in the bottom of glass and merely dampen it with water. Next, > very quickly ? and here is the trick in the procedure ? crush your ice, > actually powder it, preferably in a towel with a wooden mallet, so quickly > that it remains dry, and, slipping two sprigs of fresh mint against the > inside of the glass, cram the ice right to the brim, packing it with your > hand. Finally, fill the glass, which apparently has no room left for > anything else, with Bourbon, the older the better, and grate a bit of > nutmeg on the top. The glass will frost immediately. Then settle back in > your chair for half an hour of cumulative bliss. I may have to give his recipe a try! Read the whole article at http://www.businessinsider.com/walker-percys-perfect-mint-julep-recipe-2015-5 Steve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sat May 2 13:37:24 2015 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sat, 02 May 2015 13:37:24 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More Message-ID: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> I was wondering if anyone else thought of Dr Tom More while reading or watching Wolf Hall? Read Both "Wolf hall" and "Bring up the Bodies" and now watching "Wolf Hall" unfold on the T.V. Here is what this reader and watcher has noticed and wondered if others have anything to add?. Sir Thomas More was an intellect. He also had the fateful gift of pride ( Percy once said he too had this fateful gift) Pride seemed to be his undoing? His mind was his authority not his heart.He had no problem torturing others. His mental constructions came from his intellect. Therefore, he thought he had the right to hurt others which he did a lot! He thought he know better or knew something. He did not. He had self enhancing pieties and was full of himself. he became a martyr of the Catholic church .............Percy thought so......... History had always made Cromwell the demon........... he helped Henry dissolve the church and papal authority within England. Hilary mantel is a novelist. Novelist bring out factors that others leave behind. She has brought Cromwell forward and given him his due. From where I stand long over due.......... Now Dr. Tom More narrating "Love in the Ruins" says these days of "Christ forgetting, Christ haunted death dealing western world".No new Jerusalem etc Is Percy's Tom More a cynical version of Sir Thomas More? Dr More was a diagnostician he wanted to diagnose and heal. ( the deep abscesses in our souls) with the lapsometer. I cant see that part of Sir Thomas More..........as I have read and watch. What do they have in common? other than their name and why did Percy name him Dr Tom More? I haver read LITR many times and I feel that I know Tom and how he went the distance to test his own soul if you will.......he also had the gift of loving kindness Sir Thomas More did not......maybe he imagined in his head and could imagine a future "Utopia" but while on the ground in flesh he wasn't very nice. he needed a flask of bourbon............... From steve.petrica at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:04:58 2015 From: steve.petrica at gmail.com (Steve Petrica) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 13:04:58 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More In-Reply-To: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> References: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Lauren Stacy Berdy < lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com> wrote: Now Dr. Tom More narrating "Love in the Ruins" says these days of "Christ > forgetting, Christ haunted death dealing western world".No new Jerusalem etc > Is Percy's Tom More a cynical version of Sir Thomas More? Dr More was a > diagnostician he wanted to diagnose and heal. ( the deep abscesses in our > souls) with the lapsometer. I cant see that part of Sir Thomas > More..........as I have read and watch. What do they have in common? other > than their name and why did Percy name him Dr Tom More? You should be a bit more skeptical about Hilary Mantel's depictions of More and Cromwell. She had an often and explicitly expressed hatred of the Catholic Church, which is on full display in *Wolf Hall*. But I have an entirely different theory about Tom More's name. I suspect that Percy's homage is to the Rev. Thomas Verner Moore, O.Cart, M.D., PhD (1877-1969). Moore was a psychiatrist *and* a psychologist; a priest and a Benedictine-turned-Carthusian monk; chairman of the Dept of Psychology at Catholic University for many years; and a well known author on religion and psychology in the 1940s and 50s. I have not turned up any evidence that Percy knew of Moore, but I think it's entirely plausible that he did. Steve Petrica -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sat May 2 14:23:37 2015 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 14:23:37 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More In-Reply-To: References: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <38FFDB5D-2596-4579-A3AD-45CD02DD3162@gmail.com> I think I read somewhere that the Percy's were related to Sir Thomas More? Also Hilary Mantel is a good watcher. ( like Cromwell)Maybe she likes lurking in the corners of history that others have overlooked ...... taken for granted? I dont think she assaults the church as much as she gives us a good sidelong glance of Sir T More and brings some oxygen into his stuffy historical dusty room. Pride is a nasty conditioning and he had it in spades. Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2015, at 2:04 PM, Steve Petrica wrote: > On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Lauren Stacy Berdy wrote: > > Now Dr. Tom More narrating "Love in the Ruins" says these days of "Christ forgetting, Christ haunted death dealing western world".No new Jerusalem etc > Is Percy's Tom More a cynical version of Sir Thomas More? Dr More was a diagnostician he wanted to diagnose and heal. ( the deep abscesses in our souls) with the lapsometer. I cant see that part of Sir Thomas More..........as I have read and watch. What do they have in common? other than their name and why did Percy name him Dr Tom More? > > You should be a bit more skeptical about Hilary Mantel's depictions of More and Cromwell. She had an often and explicitly expressed hatred of the Catholic Church, which is on full display in Wolf Hall. > > But I have an entirely different theory about Tom More's name. I suspect that Percy's homage is to the Rev. Thomas Verner Moore, O.Cart, M.D., PhD (1877-1969). Moore was a psychiatrist and a psychologist; a priest and a Benedictine-turned-Carthusian monk; chairman of the Dept of Psychology at Catholic University for many years; and a well known author on religion and psychology in the 1940s and 50s. I have not turned up any evidence that Percy knew of Moore, but I think it's entirely plausible that he did. > > > Steve Petrica > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Sat May 2 14:30:47 2015 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 18:30:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More In-Reply-To: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> References: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1623663469.298341.1430591447978.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Cromwell and More remained confidants and friends in this series. Cromwell tried to be honest with More in the end and show him his?hypocrisies to try to give him some self knowledge and save him, but More wanted the martyrdom it looks like. What to More looked like principle to others looked like foolishness. But More wanted to preserve the Church of Rome for England and Henry wanted a son and needed to dilute its influence. I don't think Henry comes off looking a whole lot more principled than More in this series. Cromwell is just discrete and using his influence to do what's best for Cromwell.?In fact I think More has the argument on his side, except for his own cruelties. Perhaps Percy called his character Tom More to reflect on present day challenges of consciences of faith. If the world is going to the dogs, then someone who is trying to correct humanity, whether through mental health examination and lapsometers or eventually coming home to faith could easily be seen as a current day More.Percy was irritated at the excesses of those around him who were forgetting the Church of Rome and he is showing the hubris and destruction of people trying to play G-d - and that's what the two More novels were satires of.All Percy novels may begin as funhouses but they all return home to faith.Janet Cantor From: Lauren Stacy Berdy To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2015 1:37 PM Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More I was wondering if anyone else thought of Dr Tom More while reading or watching Wolf Hall? Read Both "Wolf hall" and "Bring up the Bodies" and now watching "Wolf Hall"? unfold on the T.V. Here is what this reader and watcher has noticed and wondered if others have anything to add?. Sir Thomas More was an intellect. He also had the fateful gift of pride ( Percy once said he too had this fateful gift) Pride seemed to be his undoing? ? His mind was his authority not his heart.He had no problem torturing others. His mental constructions came from his intellect. Therefore, he thought he had the right to hurt others which he did a lot! He thought he know better or knew something. He did not. He had self enhancing pieties and was full of himself. he became a martyr of the Catholic church .............Percy thought so......... History had always made Cromwell the demon........... he helped Henry dissolve the church and? papal authority within England. Hilary mantel is a novelist. Novelist bring out factors that others leave behind. She has brought Cromwell forward and given him his due. From where I stand long over due.......... Now? Dr. Tom More narrating "Love in the Ruins" says these days of "Christ forgetting, Christ haunted death dealing western world".No new Jerusalem etc Is Percy's Tom More a cynical version of? Sir Thomas More?? Dr More was a diagnostician he wanted to diagnose and heal. ( the deep abscesses in our souls) with the lapsometer. I cant see that part of Sir Thomas More..........as I have read and watch. What do they have in common? other than their name and why did Percy name him Dr Tom More? I haver read LITR many times and I feel that I know Tom and how he went the distance to test his own soul if you will.......he also had the gift of loving kindness Sir Thomas More did not......maybe he imagined in his head and could imagine a future "Utopia" but while on the ground in flesh he wasn't very nice. he needed a flask of bourbon............... * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Sat May 2 14:31:59 2015 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 18:31:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <817711095.259375.1430591519545.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Very interesting point.Janet Cantor From: Steve Petrica To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2015 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Lauren Stacy Berdy wrote: Now? Dr. Tom More narrating "Love in the Ruins" says these days of "Christ forgetting, Christ haunted death dealing western world".No new Jerusalem etc Is Percy's Tom More a cynical version of? Sir Thomas More?? ?Dr More was a diagnostician he wanted to diagnose and heal. ( the deep abscesses in our souls) with the lapsometer. I cant see that part of Sir Thomas More..........as I have read and watch. What do they have in common? other than their name and why did Percy name him Dr Tom More? You should be a bit more skeptical about Hilary Mantel's depictions of More and Cromwell. She had an often and explicitly expressed hatred of the Catholic Church, which is on full display in Wolf Hall.? But I have an entirely different theory about Tom More's name. I suspect that Percy's homage is to the Rev. Thomas Verner Moore, O.Cart, M.D., PhD (1877-1969). Moore was a psychiatrist and?a psychologist; a priest and a Benedictine-turned-Carthusian monk; chairman of the Dept of Psychology at Catholic University for many years; and a well known author on religion and psychology in the 1940s and 50s. I have not turned up any evidence that Percy knew of Moore, but I think it's entirely plausible that he did. Steve Petrica * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sun May 3 08:57:40 2015 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 08:57:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More In-Reply-To: <1623663469.298341.1430591447978.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <55450B54.1020903@gmail.com> <1623663469.298341.1430591447978.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <499FAA4B-B753-4C8D-AD72-4398EE771E68@gmail.com> Our thoughts have limitations How do we approach a question ? I see below that it has been approached by conclusion I was starting an investigation that's all Hilary Mantel made flesh what others deemed written in stone Watch where your own conclusions come from and you will get a taste of Henry himself Or Sir Thomas More. Cromwell lived in the present no matter what you conclude he was a most modern man He gave his complete attention to observing the chaos about him. Whatever you might conclude of him he wasn't a second hand person. Thank you Sent from my iPad On May 2, 2015, at 2:30 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > Cromwell and More remained confidants and friends in this series. Cromwell tried to be honest with More in the end and show him his hypocrisies to try to give him some self knowledge and save him, but More wanted the martyrdom it looks like. What to More looked like principle to others looked like foolishness. But More wanted to preserve the Church of Rome for England and Henry wanted a son and needed to dilute its influence. I don't think Henry comes off looking a whole lot more principled than More in this series. Cromwell is just discrete and using his influence to do what's best for Cromwell. > In fact I think More has the argument on his side, except for his own cruelties. > > Perhaps Percy called his character Tom More to reflect on present day challenges of consciences of faith. If the world is going to the dogs, then someone who is trying to correct humanity, whether through mental health examination and lapsometers or eventually coming home to faith could easily be seen as a current day More. > Percy was irritated at the excesses of those around him who were forgetting the Church of Rome and he is showing the hubris and destruction of people trying to play G-d - and that's what the two More novels were satires of. > All Percy novels may begin as funhouses but they all return home to faith. > Janet Cantor > > From: Lauren Stacy Berdy > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2015 1:37 PM > Subject: [percy-l] Walker Percy, Sir Thomas More and Tom More > > I was wondering if anyone else thought of Dr Tom More while reading or > watching Wolf Hall? > > Read Both "Wolf hall" and "Bring up the Bodies" and now watching "Wolf > Hall" unfold on the T.V. > > Here is what this reader and watcher has noticed and wondered if others > have anything to add?. > > Sir Thomas More was an intellect. He also had the fateful gift of pride > ( Percy once said he too had this fateful gift) Pride seemed to be his > undoing? > His mind was his authority not his heart.He had no problem torturing > others. His mental constructions came from his intellect. > Therefore, he thought he had the right to hurt others which he did a > lot! He thought he know better or knew something. He did not. He had > self enhancing pieties and was full of himself. > he became a martyr of the Catholic church .............Percy thought > so......... > > History had always made Cromwell the demon........... he helped Henry > dissolve the church and papal authority within England. Hilary mantel > is a novelist. Novelist bring out factors that others leave behind. She > has brought Cromwell forward and given him his due. From where I stand > long over due.......... > > Now Dr. Tom More narrating "Love in the Ruins" says these days of > "Christ forgetting, Christ haunted death dealing western world".No new > Jerusalem etc > Is Percy's Tom More a cynical version of Sir Thomas More? Dr More was > a diagnostician he wanted to diagnose and heal. ( the deep abscesses in > our souls) with the lapsometer. I cant see that part of Sir Thomas > More..........as I have read and watch. What do they have in common? > other than their name and why did Percy name him Dr Tom More? > I haver read LITR many times and I feel that I know Tom and how he went > the distance to test his own soul if you will.......he also had the gift > of loving kindness > Sir Thomas More did not......maybe he imagined in his head and could > imagine a future "Utopia" but while on the ground in flesh he wasn't > very nice. > > he needed a flask of bourbon............... > > > > > > > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip.collins at gmail.com Tue May 26 21:54:29 2015 From: skip.collins at gmail.com (Skip Collins) Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 21:54:29 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] quote source Message-ID: Hello, I am new to the list, but have been reading Percy since college, around 1987. Percy's 99th birthday this week prompted me to search for a quote I have seen attributed to him: "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us something we know but don?t know that we know." I have not been able to locate a source for the quote. This paradoxical idea of "unknown knowns" fills a gap in the Rumsfeldian epistemology of "known knowns," "known unknowns," and "unknown unknowns." Can anyone provide the source for the quote above? The closest I could find was from an interview he gave in the Paris Review in 1987, reprinted in More Conversations with Walker Percy: "The most commonplace example of the cognitive dimension in fiction is the reader?s recognition---sometimes the shock of recognition---the "verification" of a sector of reality that he had known but not known that he had known. I think of letters I get from readers, which may refer to a certain scene and say, in effect, yes! that?s the way it is!" -- skip From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Tue May 26 23:12:01 2015 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 03:12:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Whatever I looked up, it only listed the quote as one of Percy's famous ones. It gave no source so I am assuming he said it in a speech at some point.Janet Cantor From: Skip Collins Hello, I am new to the list, but have been reading Percy since college, around 1987. Percy's 99th birthday this week prompted me to search for a quote I have seen attributed to him: "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us something we know but don?t know that we know." I have not been able to locate a source for the quote. This paradoxical idea of "unknown knowns" fills a gap in the Rumsfeldian epistemology of "known knowns," "known unknowns," and "unknown unknowns." Can anyone provide the source for the quote above? The closest I could find was from an interview he gave in the Paris Review in 1987, reprinted in More Conversations with Walker Percy: "The most commonplace example of the cognitive dimension in fiction is the reader?s recognition---sometimes the shock of recognition---the "verification" of a sector of reality that he had known but not known that he had known. I think of letters I get from readers, which may refer to a certain scene and say, in effect, yes! that?s the way it is!" -- skip * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Wed May 27 10:55:12 2015 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 10:55:12 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5565DAD0.6030308@gmail.com> /shock of recognition/ is talked about in his interview with Zoltan abadi-nagy about the quote know it but can't place it......... and do we think Rumsfeld read Dr. Percy? On 5/26/2015 11:12 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > Whatever I looked up, it only listed the quote as one of Percy's > famous ones. It gave no source so I am assuming he said it in a speech > at some point. > Janet Cantor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Skip Collins > > > Hello, I am new to the list, but have been reading Percy since > college, around 1987. > > Percy's 99th birthday this week prompted me to search for a quote I > have seen attributed to him: > "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us > something we know but don?t know that we know." > > I have not been able to locate a source for the quote. > > This paradoxical idea of "unknown knowns" fills a gap in the > Rumsfeldian epistemology of "known knowns," "known unknowns," and > "unknown unknowns." > > Can anyone provide the source for the quote above? The closest I could > find was from an interview he gave in the Paris Review in 1987, > reprinted in More Conversations with Walker Percy: > "The most commonplace example of the cognitive dimension in fiction is > the reader?s recognition---sometimes the shock of recognition---the > "verification" of a sector of reality that he had known but not known > that he had known. I think of letters I get from readers, which may > refer to a certain scene and say, in effect, yes! that?s the way it > is!" > > -- > skip > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com AmericanGarum at gmail.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com/Garum.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Wed May 27 12:30:09 2015 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 16:30:09 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: <5565DAD0.6030308@gmail.com> References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>, <5565DAD0.6030308@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rumsfeld? Doubtful. He's a Knothead. Sent from my iPad On May 27, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Lauren Stacy Berdy > wrote: shock of recognition is talked about in his interview with Zoltan abadi-nagy about the quote know it but can't place it......... and do we think Rumsfeld read Dr. Percy? On 5/26/2015 11:12 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: Whatever I looked up, it only listed the quote as one of Percy's famous ones. It gave no source so I am assuming he said it in a speech at some point. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Skip Collins Hello, I am new to the list, but have been reading Percy since college, around 1987. Percy's 99th birthday this week prompted me to search for a quote I have seen attributed to him: "Fiction doesn't tell us something we don't know, it tells us something we know but don't know that we know." I have not been able to locate a source for the quote. This paradoxical idea of "unknown knowns" fills a gap in the Rumsfeldian epistemology of "known knowns," "known unknowns," and "unknown unknowns." Can anyone provide the source for the quote above? The closest I could find was from an interview he gave in the Paris Review in 1987, reprinted in More Conversations with Walker Percy: "The most commonplace example of the cognitive dimension in fiction is the reader's recognition---sometimes the shock of recognition---the "verification" of a sector of reality that he had known but not known that he had known. I think of letters I get from readers, which may refer to a certain scene and say, in effect, yes! that's the way it is!" -- skip * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com AmericanGarum at gmail.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com/Garum.html * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:38:05 2015 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 13:38:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>, <5565DAD0.6030308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <556600FD.1070808@gmail.com> all humans are in a predicament the predicament of being a human a knothead is part of this mad picnic everyone is in the basket Dr Percy sucked crayfish with known Klansman...... we are all in trouble On 5/27/2015 12:30 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > Rumsfeld? Doubtful. He's a Knothead. > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 27, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Lauren Stacy Berdy > > > wrote: > >> /shock of recognition/ is talked about in his interview with Zoltan >> abadi-nagy >> >> about the quote know it but can't place it......... >> >> and >> do we think Rumsfeld read Dr. Percy? >> >> >> On 5/26/2015 11:12 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: >>> Whatever I looked up, it only listed the quote as one of Percy's >>> famous ones. It gave no source so I am assuming he said it in a >>> speech at some point. >>> Janet Cantor >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* Skip Collins >>> >>> >>> Hello, I am new to the list, but have been reading Percy since >>> college, around 1987. >>> >>> Percy's 99th birthday this week prompted me to search for a quote I >>> have seen attributed to him: >>> "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us >>> something we know but don?t know that we know." >>> >>> I have not been able to locate a source for the quote. >>> >>> This paradoxical idea of "unknown knowns" fills a gap in the >>> Rumsfeldian epistemology of "known knowns," "known unknowns," and >>> "unknown unknowns." >>> >>> Can anyone provide the source for the quote above? The closest I could >>> find was from an interview he gave in the Paris Review in 1987, >>> reprinted in More Conversations with Walker Percy: >>> "The most commonplace example of the cognitive dimension in fiction is >>> the reader?s recognition---sometimes the shock of recognition---the >>> "verification" of a sector of reality that he had known but not known >>> that he had known. I think of letters I get from readers, which may >>> refer to a certain scene and say, in effect, yes! that?s the way it >>> is!" >>> >>> -- >>> skip >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at)lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -- >> Lauren Stacy Berdy >> Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com >> >> AmericanGarum at gmail.com >> LaurenStacyBerdy.com/Garum.html >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com AmericanGarum at gmail.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com/Garum.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Wed May 27 13:45:01 2015 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 17:45:01 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: <556600FD.1070808@gmail.com> References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5565DAD0.6030308@gmail.com> <556600FD.1070808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <302B81CA-78C8-4F21-AB5E-7FF522D6BEBE@stokeswagner.com> Well put. Sent from my iPhone On May 27, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Lauren Stacy Berdy > wrote: all humans are in a predicament the predicament of being a human a knothead is part of this mad picnic everyone is in the basket Dr Percy sucked crayfish with known Klansman...... we are all in trouble On 5/27/2015 12:30 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Rumsfeld? Doubtful. He's a Knothead. Sent from my iPad On May 27, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Lauren Stacy Berdy > wrote: shock of recognition is talked about in his interview with Zoltan abadi-nagy about the quote know it but can't place it......... and do we think Rumsfeld read Dr. Percy? On 5/26/2015 11:12 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: Whatever I looked up, it only listed the quote as one of Percy's famous ones. It gave no source so I am assuming he said it in a speech at some point. Janet Cantor ________________________________ From: Skip Collins Hello, I am new to the list, but have been reading Percy since college, around 1987. Percy's 99th birthday this week prompted me to search for a quote I have seen attributed to him: "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us something we know but don?t know that we know." I have not been able to locate a source for the quote. This paradoxical idea of "unknown knowns" fills a gap in the Rumsfeldian epistemology of "known knowns," "known unknowns," and "unknown unknowns." Can anyone provide the source for the quote above? The closest I could find was from an interview he gave in the Paris Review in 1987, reprinted in More Conversations with Walker Percy: "The most commonplace example of the cognitive dimension in fiction is the reader?s recognition---sometimes the shock of recognition---the "verification" of a sector of reality that he had known but not known that he had known. I think of letters I get from readers, which may refer to a certain scene and say, in effect, yes! that?s the way it is!" -- skip * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com AmericanGarum at gmail.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com/Garum.html * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- Lauren Stacy Berdy Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com AmericanGarum at gmail.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com/Garum.html * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip.collins at gmail.com Wed May 27 16:41:48 2015 From: skip.collins at gmail.com (Skip Collins) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 16:41:48 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us > something we know but don?t know that we know." As with many pithy quotes found on the internet, I believe that this is a paraphrase. I suspect the original source is what Percy said in his interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy, which has been edited to be more quotable. Another famous quote that I came across, attributed to Flannery O'Connor, seems like it might have influenced Percy's thinking: "I write to discover what I know." This is supposedly from The Habit of Being, a collection of O'Connor's letters that Percy must have read. But when I went on Amazon to find the quote, it did not show up in the search. It too appears to be a cleaned up version of a less quotable passage from a letter she wrote in 1948: "I don't have my novel outlined and I have to write to discover what I am doing. Like the old lady, I don't know so well what I think until I see what I say; then I have to say it over again." This is more about her process of writing than some general theory of coming to discover what she already knows through writing. I would love to be proven wrong about both the Percy and O'Connor quotes. -- skip From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Wed May 27 17:25:50 2015 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 21:25:50 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Quote-accuracy aside, this an interesting idea from both Percy and O?Connor, and reminds me of an observation I once heard or read, somewhere ? my spin of which is: One sign of a capable mind, or of at least a careful mind, is the ability to distinguish the things you don?t know. Far too many fail to understand this, and get themselves in all kinds of trouble. Percy and O?Connor, though, speak to a higher ambition ? the undertaking of a search to identify the things we know, but as to which ? while stuck in our everydayness ? we didn?t realize we knew, or were perhaps unable to know. Karl On 5/27/15, 4:41 PM, "Skip Collins" wrote: >> "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us >> something we know but don?t know that we know." > >As with many pithy quotes found on the internet, I believe that this >is a paraphrase. I suspect the original source is what Percy said in >his interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy, which has been edited to be more >quotable. > >Another famous quote that I came across, attributed to Flannery >O'Connor, seems like it might have influenced Percy's thinking: >"I write to discover what I know." > >This is supposedly from The Habit of Being, a collection of O'Connor's >letters that Percy must have read. But when I went on Amazon to find >the quote, it did not show up in the search. It too appears to be a >cleaned up version of a less quotable passage from a letter she wrote >in 1948: >"I don't have my novel outlined and I have to write to discover what I >am doing. Like the old lady, I don't know so well what I think until I >see what I say; then I have to say it over again." > >This is more about her process of writing than some general theory of >coming to discover what she already knows through writing. > >I would love to be proven wrong about both the Percy and O'Connor quotes. > >-- >skip >* Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >* Manage Your Membership: >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >* Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > >* Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy From wppdirector at gmail.com Wed May 27 20:54:08 2015 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry Mills) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 20:54:08 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55666730.7020005@gmail.com> Here is a quote I have set aside as a Percy favorite. Perhaps it sheds some light? I can't say exactly where I transcribed it from sometime in the past, but I believe one of Percy's interviews. "My theory is that the purpose of art is to transmit universal truths of a sort, but of a particular sort, that in art, whether it's poetry, fiction or painting, you are telling the reader or the listener or the viewer something he already knows but which he doesn't quite know that he knows, so that in the action of communication he experiences a recognition, a feeling that he has been there before, a shock of recognition. And so what the artist does, or tries to do, is simply to validate the human experience and to tell people the deep human truths which they already unconsciously know." Cheers, Henry On 5/27/15 5:25 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: > Quote-accuracy aside, this an interesting idea from both Percy and > O?Connor, and reminds me of an observation I once heard or read, somewhere > ? my spin of which is: One sign of a capable mind, or of at least a > careful mind, is the ability to distinguish the things you don?t know. > Far too many fail to understand this, and get themselves in all kinds of > trouble. > > Percy and O?Connor, though, speak to a higher ambition ? the undertaking > of a search to identify the things we know, but as to which ? while stuck > in our everydayness ? we didn?t realize we knew, or were perhaps unable to > know. > > Karl > > On 5/27/15, 4:41 PM, "Skip Collins" wrote: > >>> "Fiction doesn?t tell us something we don?t know, it tells us >>> something we know but don?t know that we know." >> As with many pithy quotes found on the internet, I believe that this >> is a paraphrase. I suspect the original source is what Percy said in >> his interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy, which has been edited to be more >> quotable. >> >> Another famous quote that I came across, attributed to Flannery >> O'Connor, seems like it might have influenced Percy's thinking: >> "I write to discover what I know." >> >> This is supposedly from The Habit of Being, a collection of O'Connor's >> letters that Percy must have read. But when I went on Amazon to find >> the quote, it did not show up in the search. It too appears to be a >> cleaned up version of a less quotable passage from a letter she wrote >> in 1948: >> "I don't have my novel outlined and I have to write to discover what I >> am doing. Like the old lady, I don't know so well what I think until I >> see what I say; then I have to say it over again." >> >> This is more about her process of writing than some general theory of >> coming to discover what she already knows through writing. >> >> I would love to be proven wrong about both the Percy and O'Connor quotes. >> >> -- >> skip >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kterrell at stokeswagner.com Wed May 27 21:52:55 2015 From: kterrell at stokeswagner.com (Karl M. Terrell) Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 01:52:55 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: <55666730.7020005@gmail.com> References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> , <55666730.7020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E9FA7A1-01BC-4FBF-BA51-1164688DC867@stokeswagner.com> Thank you, Henry. Percy refers to the "shock of recognition." Sort of ... an unexpected confrontation with what we already know (can we call this truth?) Anyway, resonates with me. The real juice in the value of art ... Karl Sent from my iPhone On May 27, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Henry Mills > wrote: Here is a quote I have set aside as a Percy favorite. Perhaps it sheds some light? I can't say exactly where I transcribed it from sometime in the past, but I believe one of Percy's interviews. "My theory is that the purpose of art is to transmit universal truths of a sort, but of a particular sort, that in art, whether it's poetry, fiction or painting, you are telling the reader or the listener or the viewer something he already knows but which he doesn't quite know that he knows, so that in the action of communication he experiences a recognition, a feeling that he has been there before, a shock of recognition. And so what the artist does, or tries to do, is simply to validate the human experience and to tell people the deep human truths which they already unconsciously know." Cheers, Henry On 5/27/15 5:25 PM, Karl M. Terrell wrote: Quote-accuracy aside, this an interesting idea from both Percy and O^1Connor, and reminds me of an observation I once heard or read, somewhere < my spin of which is: One sign of a capable mind, or of at least a careful mind, is the ability to distinguish the things you don^1t know. Far too many fail to understand this, and get themselves in all kinds of trouble. Percy and O^1Connor, though, speak to a higher ambition < the undertaking of a search to identify the things we know, but as to which < while stuck in our everydayness < we didn^1t realize we knew, or were perhaps unable to know. Karl On 5/27/15, 4:41 PM, "Skip Collins" wrote: "Fiction doesn^1t tell us something we don^1t know, it tells us something we know but don^1t know that we know." As with many pithy quotes found on the internet, I believe that this is a paraphrase. I suspect the original source is what Percy said in his interview with Zoltan Abadi-Nagy, which has been edited to be more quotable. Another famous quote that I came across, attributed to Flannery O'Connor, seems like it might have influenced Percy's thinking: "I write to discover what I know." This is supposedly from The Habit of Being, a collection of O'Connor's letters that Percy must have read. But when I went on Amazon to find the quote, it did not show up in the search. It too appears to be a cleaned up version of a less quotable passage from a letter she wrote in 1948: "I don't have my novel outlined and I have to write to discover what I am doing. Like the old lady, I don't know so well what I think until I see what I say; then I have to say it over again." This is more about her process of writing than some general theory of coming to discover what she already knows through writing. I would love to be proven wrong about both the Percy and O'Connor quotes. -- skip * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip.collins at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:05:48 2015 From: skip.collins at gmail.com (Skip Collins) Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 22:05:48 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] quote source In-Reply-To: <55666730.7020005@gmail.com> References: <1735846165.125.1432696321309.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55666730.7020005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Henry Mills wrote: > "My theory is that the purpose of art is to transmit universal truths of a > sort, but of a particular sort, that in art, whether it's poetry, fiction or > painting, you are telling the reader or the listener or the viewer something > he already knows but which he doesn't quite know that he knows, so that in > the action of communication he experiences a recognition, a feeling that he > has been there before, a shock of recognition. And so what the artist does, > or tries to do, is simply to validate the human experience and to tell > people the deep human truths which they already unconsciously know." This is from a 1968 interview with Carlton Cremeens collected in Conversations with Walker Percy. -- skip