From honeyjbc at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 15:04:26 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2016 15:04:26 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Pages 199 to 250 of The Second Coming - Janet Cantor continues the slow read Message-ID: We are back with Allison as she is trying to figure out how to bring that mammoth, all purpose stove into place. Like an innocent creature from outer space who does not know how to use our language, Allison uses what her visitor told her, and her own wits, which we see are considerable, to bring that miracle about. In her Miranda way she is helping the reader to observe ordinary behaviors in new ways. Percy has some fun with the reader. Allison displays extraordinary skills at engineering concepts and physics. As she goes shopping, she is pleased that this time "she had all the words and got the things without pointing..." When she asks for the "man", and is told she must mean Mister Barrett, she wonders if it was her imagination or did she detect a certain affection in his voice for his employer. Thus does Percy sweetly gives us a good view of Will from his employee's perspective. Page 204 - again sunlight bejewels her eyelashes. I don't know why but I enjoy pointing out these frequent references to reflected light. I guess it harks back to that beautiful way Jay Tolson speculated on what Percy was trying to say. While Allie is working her machinations, Will is taking pleasure in his own explorations.. He carries out his plan which seems airtight to him. He will test every possible source, religion, or lack of, to see if he will be given an answer. I don't know about you but this whole part of this otherwise darling, lovable book, made me distinctly uncomfortable. I don't know if if is the fear of his never being found, or of his being in an unpredictable tight space, but I never enjoy reading this part of the book. Will has his pills at the ready, and if no answer comes, at least Sutter will get the insurance money and he will get the suicide his father presaged. He takes comfort in his whole idea. Once again Percy offers the theme that the option and availability of suicide can be comforting.. This sequence finally ends with Will falling again. Not to worry. Allison is there to pick him up again. Did Will get an answer? We readers know that he did. But he hasn't figured that out, yet. Let's take a bite out of Part Two: Page 233 - Allison gives us more information about herself. She knows a great deal. She does better on her own, when no one is watching. As soon as someone is looking at her, she falls apart. Somehow, Will's watching does not bother her, in the same way as the dog's watching. Trust. She decides her best job is to be a nurse for comatose patients. She has hoisted her stove into place. She still has the equipment and knows how to use it. She hoists Will onto the bed. Next following musings about love and home and making merry. These are original in Allison's peculiar voice and so special to read. They conclude on the top of 242. Considerations of remunerations and thoughts of a job come. On page 247 there is her analysis analysis of how glorious it is to have a job where someone tells you what to do and pays you for doing it. An accomplishment for both. How happy people with jobs must be! This would be funny at any time, but especially these days it made me laugh out loud. Percy thought he was exposing unnecessary complaints from employed people. How Percy would be shocked today to confront our entitlement culture. Reminiscent of Binx's cousin taking orders from him in the Epilogue of the Moviegoer, and feeling safe as long as he tells her what to do, here we have Allison delighted with her new milestone as she goes about carrying out Will's orders in her new "job." She tells Dr. Battle what is going on and the outside world will begin to deal with Will again. Things I liked: Page - 199 - Allison realizes if she can hoist this monster of a Grand Crown stove, she could do anything life. Page 201 - "Have a nice day..." For some reason people had stopped saying goodbye. Very well." Another lesson learned and another cute jab from Percy at goofy empty niceties. Page 216 end and so on - Why did G-d make ugly girls? He can make her happy, and maybe that is why they were made. Maybe that is a plan. He could make ugly girls happy and selfish him less selfish. Then she smiles and she is not ugly. He notices the cicada shell, which the insect had left, just as he will later come out of HIS cave, which will mean coming out of his isolation. And just so Allison will emerge. Page 234 - When Will, a stranger falls into the greenhouse, the dog growls and takes his hand into his mouth ready to protect his mistress, but the dog recognizes him and lets the hand slip out of his mouth. "The furious growl wound down to become an apology." This helps Allison to see Will can be trusted. Okay everybody, summer's over. Someone come on in and share this conversation, comment, analyze. Don't leave me stranded by myself in the greenhouse. The Garden of Eden may have been empty and isolated. But Percy is about to bring in the real world. I would like to ask the rest of the Percy List to mimic that and join me in this discussion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhforest at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 09:03:33 2016 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2016 15:03:33 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming Message-ID: Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on vacation in Norway. Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick sense of life return?? There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide attractive. As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for all.? (186) Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the madhouse? I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? Jim Forest * * * On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 4:52 AM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: > Section V - takes us from pages 122 to 199. > > We leave Allison as she was preparing her way to freedom from the > institution. > > > This part is all Will Barrett. > > Jack Curl, another marvelous Percy character, the preacher who is > supposed to conduct the ceremony for Will's daughter, Leslie's > wedding, has a wish that Will spend some of his inheritance in a good > deed scheme of Marion's, a retirement village and faith community. > Will's dead wife has left him millions. > > This entire section is musings on death and life and death in life. It > bounces back and forth without warning between the present semi > oblivion of Will and evocations of his father's suicide attempt. > What is the past, is there a present and will there be a future? His > daughter, Leslie's impending marriage also stirs questions. > But the odd thing is as Will is asking these "deep" questions. Percy > is whimsical in his writing so that the reader smiles, and even laughs > along the way. There's a whole paragraph on funerals and why people > like going to them on page 124 - such a solemn subject - but with the > adorable Percy touch. > > Will wonders why he suddenly sees things more clearly than he has. > Something has given him leave to live in the present - bottom of page > 123. I am guessing it is Allison is entering his subconscious. > > When Percy was a teenager his parents took the family on a vacation in > Germany, Hitler was in power but it was early days. The teenaged Percy > was captivated by a Hitler Youth boy with his dashing looks and > excellent uniform and pride. When Percy got home and later realized > the horrors of what that youth really represented, Percy was haunted > by his impressionistic self. It was an obsessive memory and he felt > ashamed. In The Thanatos Syndrome a character spends a lot of time on > a similar episode as Percy tried to atone for his gullibility. > Here in this book we have on Page 132 again some thoughts on this > subject in a smaller example. It ends with a letter Will has memorized > from a Roman Centurian who expresses the hope that the deeds they do > are for a higher goal. It is fascinating to read this letter in light > of this incident in Percy's life. > Once again Will wonders if the Jews' leaving is a sign. The way this > is written, it is strangely funny at the same time as it is ominous. > > Will continues to look for answers. He questions the chaplain about > religion and belief. The scene keeps shifting in Will's mind without > any warning to the reader. from a conversation he is trying to engage > himself in and reminders of his father's event with that shotgun. > Looking for answers Will keeps going back to trying to figure out what > his father was trying to tell him. There is much thought about the > shells in the gun. Will figures out that his father's plan was to > shoot Will and then himself. He failed on both counts, but his father > finally did himself in later. > Will figures out that his father was trying to prevent his son from > suffering as he did in a world where there is no reason to go on. > > Will decides, he won't go that way. He will seek answers. > This may relate to Percy's good acquaintance with so many people > around him committing suicide and Percy decided that it was not going > to happen to him. > > > Lewis Peckham, the golf pro wonders if Will needs a psychiatrist > because he seems depressed over the loss of his wife. He invites Will > to listen to Beethoven. This is not inviting to Will and he makes the > excuse that he has to return to the wedding preparations. > > Plans are being made for the wedding and all parties to the occasion are > there. > We met Kitty and her husband in the last section when they visited > Allison. It turns out that Kitty was an old "flame" of Will's. Kitty > was a character in The Last Gentlemen. > > Kitty flirts with Will and arranges to meet him later for perhaps a > rendezvous. (Oy, she is Allison's mother.) > She tells Will. "You must meet my daughter. I know you could help her." > > Will feels bad that he wasn't good father, what with his fade outs, > whatever is causing them. While his daughter, Leslie, is not happy > about those episodes, she tells him, "You always turned up when I > needed you." > He takes his leave saying goodbye and taking a long look at her. This > seems ominous. > > Leslie is deep in preparation for her wedding. Kitty has left for her > rendezvous with Will. > > Resolving to meet Kitty, he falls down some steps on his way. Ewell > McBee confronts him and harangues him about what a snob he is. Will is > bleeding and McBee doesn't notice because he is wrapped up in his > diatribe. He wants Will to invest in his blue movies.There will be a > couple of girls there for them, one is Jewish. (The Jews haven't all > left?) > > Will thinks again about his father. > Will has an epiphany. Maybe his father was right in choosing to kill him. > Okay, Will gets an idea. > > Kitty had mentioned Dr. Sutter Vaught, someone we meet in The Last > Gentleman, the other novel involving Will Barrett. > > Will writes two letters. One is to Lewis Peckham that he would love to > come listen to music with him. And the other to Vaught with a > complicated series of instructions for him to carry out if he hasn't > heard from Will within three weeks. One wonders what Sutter will make > of this goofy letter. > > Will is going to put G-d to the test. If He exists and cares, he will > give a sign. > > Thus ends part V. > > > Some things I liked: > > Reading these pages, one is tempted to write about every sentence. > There is so much wonderful observation, philosophy, wit and beautiful > characterization, and the writing is masterful all the way. > > I will only choose to notice a few things. > > Here we go again. Page 122 - bright sunlight races like quicksilver > around the beveled glass of a door. Page 130 - A shaft of light > strikes his hand refracted by a prism. This kind of thing repeats > often in Percy as I mentioned last time. > > Again on Page 122 - The only time Will knows what to do is when > something happens to somebody; disaster gives him leave to act. > Another common theme. > > Page 137 - more crow's feet iron out on a face. Percy likes this image. > > I liked the question on page 124, "Is it possible for people to miss > their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" > > I like this - "We're the once born in a world of twice born." and the > rest of that paragraph on page 151. > > > I hope others decide to join in the discussion. > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -- just out: *The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers:* http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ recent books: *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: * www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ *Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: * www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ *Books in print*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ *Jim & Nancy web site*: www.jimandnancyforest.com *Photo albums*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums *Facebook*: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 *Jim & Nancy Forest* Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 15:23:46 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 15:23:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: > Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming > discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had > intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been > disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an > exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on > vacation in Norway. > > > > Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): > > > > I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only > time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. > Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had > given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of > himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- > we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet > quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to > miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" > > > > Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why > is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next > page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick > sense of life return?? > > > > There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse > -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the > possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) > > > > There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the > mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the > end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where > does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world > yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of > violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide > attractive. > > > > As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? > (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack > Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? > > > > It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then > 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, > but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out > from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that > there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of > the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that > his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to > answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the > darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate > scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for > all.? (186) > > > > Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent > centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything > for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the > unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) > > > > ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) > > > > It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the > madhouse? > > > > I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. > > > > Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? > > > > Jim Forest > > > > * * * > >> >> >> > > -- > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Fri Sep 9 18:38:55 2016 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 22:38:55 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Janet, Jim, and Nancy, I've so appreciated your comments on Second Coming. I don't know about the rest of the list, but I have been utterly buried in work. The good news is that two of the projects that have me buried are Percy related. More news on those if/ when appropriate. Thanks for soldiering on. Best wishes for good healing, Nancy! Rhonda PS -- Janet, I agree and would add that religious belief is often manipulated to lead to killing, whether by Christians, Muslims, or others of any stripe. I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and again. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 9, 2016, at 12:24 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" > wrote: Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on vacation in Norway. Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says "the only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. Disaster gave me leave to act." (122) Then on the next page: "Something had given [Will] leave to live in the present ... in the quiet center of himself.... Not once had he been present for his life." (Later on -- p 153 -- we learn that he married Marion "because he pleased her so much.") Janet quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: "Why is it that without death one misses one's life?" (124) And on the next page: "How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick sense of life return?" There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse -- but it's Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will's Luger is described on p 131!) There is Will's realization is anger having been, up to now, the mainspring of his life. (133) "You were possessed by anger ... which in the end you turned on yourself." Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: "Where does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of violence all is in the end impotence?" These are thoughts that make suicide attractive. As I read it, the book's pivotal question is: "Do you believe in God?" (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack Curl, who finds it embarrassing: "How's that?" "You know, God." It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God's hand -- to draw God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It's nothing less than "one of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man." Will decides that his father's suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to answer the "are You there?" question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven's silence. It's "the ultimate scientific experiment.... I aim to settle the question of God once and for all." (186) Sadly Christians themselves, who "have killed off more people in recent centuries than all other people put together" (188), fail to prove anything for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the unbelievers. They are "two classes of maniacs." 190) "So it was that Will Barrett went mad." (197) It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the madhouse... I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. Janet, I know you're there. Anybody else? Jim Forest * * * -- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Fri Sep 9 22:32:13 2016 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 02:32:13 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <1473474734022.80284@iupui.edu> Ditto. Like Rhonda, I've been buried this semester. I agreed to do an independent study on Milan Kundera, with a really good student (I was hoping she might select Percy. I gave her the options of Percy, DeLillo, or Kundera, and she picked Kundera.) And then one of my colleagues became ill and they spread his work out among some of us. So this semester is a crazy one. I have been reading with interests the posts by Janet and Jim. Please keep them coming. Maybe next semester--with a promised course release--I'll be able to participate, with another book. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 6:38 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming Janet, Jim, and Nancy, I've so appreciated your comments on Second Coming. I don't know about the rest of the list, but I have been utterly buried in work. The good news is that two of the projects that have me buried are Percy related. More news on those if/ when appropriate. Thanks for soldiering on. Best wishes for good healing, Nancy! Rhonda PS -- Janet, I agree and would add that religious belief is often manipulated to lead to killing, whether by Christians, Muslims, or others of any stripe. I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and again. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 9, 2016, at 12:24 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" > wrote: Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on vacation in Norway. Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick sense of life return?? There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide attractive. As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for all.? (186) Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the madhouse? I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? Jim Forest * * * -- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 04:53:46 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 04:53:46 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Fwd: the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: <1473474734022.80284@iupui.edu> References: <1473474734022.80284@iupui.edu> Message-ID: Dear David, So far we have attempted the slow read in the summer. I love Milan Kundera. His Book of Laughter and Forgetting should be required reading these days. His The Joke also is relevance, inc. He tackles lots of my perspectives. De Lillo does not speak to me. I know that is a minority voice these days. He seems to be the flavor of the times. Percy is the most enduring for me. Rhonda said, "...I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and again... " Very true, Rhonda. I think Percy enjoys poking fun at phony faith. Almost as much as he enjoys bringing his readers home to faith. Janet I strikes me funny that I, an ordinary reader, have been the analyzer in chief this time. There are so many of you who have more important things to say and I miss you. But thank you Rhonda and David and Jim and Nancy. Very much appreciated. From: Beck, David A Date: Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" < percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> Ditto. Like Rhonda, I've been buried this semester. I agreed to do an independent study on Milan Kundera, with a really good student (I was hoping she might select Percy. I gave her the options of Percy, DeLillo, or Kundera, and she picked Kundera.) And then one of my colleagues became ill and they spread his work out among some of us. So this semester is a crazy one. I have been reading with interests the posts by Janet and Jim. Please keep them coming. Maybe next semester--with a promised course release--I'll be able to participate, with another book. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ------------------------------ *From:* Percy-L on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL *Sent:* Friday, September 9, 2016 6:38 PM *To:* Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion *Subject:* Re: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming Janet, Jim, and Nancy, I've so appreciated your comments on Second Coming. I don't know about the rest of the list, but I have been utterly buried in work. The good news is that two of the projects that have me buried are Percy related. More news on those if/ when appropriate. Thanks for soldiering on. Best wishes for good healing, Nancy! Rhonda PS -- Janet, I agree and would add that religious belief is often manipulated to lead to killing, whether by Christians, Muslims, or others of any stripe. I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and again. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 9, 2016, at 12:24 PM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sat Sep 10 05:03:06 2016 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 09:03:06 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Fwd: the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: <1473474734022.80284@iupui.edu>, Message-ID: I do believe, Janet, that you are serving as our soul during this distracted and busy season. Bless you! Sent from my iPad On Sep 10, 2016, at 1:54 AM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: Dear David, So far we have attempted the slow read in the summer. I love Milan Kundera. His Book of Laughter and Forgetting should be required reading these days. His The Joke also is relevance, inc. He tackles lots of my perspectives. De Lillo does not speak to me. I know that is a minority voice these days. He seems to be the flavor of the times. Percy is the most enduring for me. Rhonda said, "...I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and again... " Very true, Rhonda. I think Percy enjoys poking fun at phony faith. Almost as much as he enjoys bringing his readers home to faith. Janet I strikes me funny that I, an ordinary reader, have been the analyzer in chief this time. There are so many of you who have more important things to say and I miss you. But thank you Rhonda and David and Jim and Nancy. Very much appreciated. From: Beck, David A > Date: Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > Ditto. Like Rhonda, I've been buried this semester. I agreed to do an independent study on Milan Kundera, with a really good student (I was hoping she might select Percy. I gave her the options of Percy, DeLillo, or Kundera, and she picked Kundera.) And then one of my colleagues became ill and they spread his work out among some of us. So this semester is a crazy one. I have been reading with interests the posts by Janet and Jim. Please keep them coming. Maybe next semester--with a promised course release--I'll be able to participate, with another book. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L > on behalf of RHONDA MCDONNELL > Sent: Friday, September 9, 2016 6:38 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming Janet, Jim, and Nancy, I've so appreciated your comments on Second Coming. I don't know about the rest of the list, but I have been utterly buried in work. The good news is that two of the projects that have me buried are Percy related. More news on those if/ when appropriate. Thanks for soldiering on. Best wishes for good healing, Nancy! Rhonda PS -- Janet, I agree and would add that religious belief is often manipulated to lead to killing, whether by Christians, Muslims, or others of any stripe. I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and again. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 9, 2016, at 12:24 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 10:55:59 2016 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Stacy Berdy) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 10:55:59 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2363c8a9-1356-8d8f-a013-46344f789d5a@gmail.com> Dr. Percy read Carl Jung................I add a few more words on the subject of the /boundaries/ we make in our own heads........... if you will................... almost everyone at one time has seen or heard or participated in some form of Witch hunt and as grotesque as these things are they nevertheless illustrate the disasters of projection. and the persistent blindness of us humans to our OWN foibles. We loathe in others those things and only those things that we secretly loathe in ourselves. A witch hunt begins when a person loses track of some trait of tendency which he/she deems evil,satanic,demonic,or at least unworthy. it could be something inconsequential as well.......All of us ALL OF US have a dark side ( READ Lancelot) (According to the Hebrews tradition maybe G-d placed this wayward tendency in us to prevent us from perishing from boredom............) but the witch hunter believe he doesn't have a black heart.the more his little black heart clamors for attention the more he resists.........then he starts to SEE IT IN OTHERS he knows someone has a black heart and it cant be him it must be someone else........atrocious dimensions happen like the Shoah. we who are doing this projecting strongly affect us instead of just INFORMING us. /I looked and looked and this I came to see that what I thought was you and you/ /was really me and me/ Dr Percy once again is offering us a way to see one another to hear one another. Forgive me my trespasses but in a way he /is/ aligning us to see one another and to hear one another. Will is no longer exclusively preoccupied with his own personal vantage point. His process quickens correctly upon meeting Ally. His identity his very self expands. and his soul becomes saturated with depth. They are both no longer suffocating under the the individual concerns and view them with a creative detachment. A quiet source of strength is both theirs to be used unperturbed. Lauren Berdy Lauren Stacy Berdy (614) 314-4162 cell (754) 816-7508 Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.com LaurenBrdy at aol.com LaurenStacyBerdy.com On 9/9/2016 6:38 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > Janet, Jim, and Nancy, > > I've so appreciated your comments on Second Coming. I don't know about > the rest of the list, but I have been utterly buried in work. The good > news is that two of the projects that have me buried are Percy > related. More news on those if/ when appropriate. Thanks for > soldiering on. > > Best wishes for good healing, Nancy! > > Rhonda > > PS -- Janet, I agree and would add that religious belief is often > manipulated to lead to killing, whether by Christians, Muslims, or > others of any stripe. I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for > instance, that indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as > they recognize that faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by > leaders, and that weapon can be used for evil as well as > righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson history has shown us time and > again. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 9, 2016, at 12:24 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: > >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back >> too much. >> >> You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in >> recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a >> pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if >> you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have >> killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of >> millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. >> If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and >> certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real >> champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it >> illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I >> try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for >> conscience. >> >> But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less >> lonely here. >> >> Janet >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" > > wrote: >> >> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second >> Coming discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes >> from the book. I had intended to respond to the first one sooner >> but domestic life has been disrupted by Nancy breaking her right >> arm; she was knocked down by an exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland >> of Viking descent -- while we were on vacation in Norway. >> >> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): >> >> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says >> ?the only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened >> to somebody. Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the >> next page: ?Something had given [Will] leave to live in the >> present ? in the quiet center of himself?. Not once had he been >> present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- we learn that he >> married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet quoted >> the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to >> miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" >> >> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this >> question: ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? >> (124) And on the next page: ?How can it be that only with death >> and dying does the sharp quick sense of life return?? >> >> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise >> greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden >> -- but with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger >> is described on p 131!) >> >> There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the >> mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? >> which in the end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will >> asks the question: ?Where does such rage come from? From the >> discovery that in the end the world yields only to violence, that >> only the violent bear it away, that short of violence all is in >> the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide attractive. >> >> As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in >> God?? (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal >> priest Jack Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You >> know, God.? >> >> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for >> Percy. Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a >> way (his cave quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to >> force God?s hand -- to draw God out from behind the curtain or >> not show up, in which case demonstrating that there is >> nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of >> the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will >> decides that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to >> answer or even attempt to answer the ?are You there?? question. >> Either Will will pry a yes out of the darkness of heaven or he >> will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate scientific >> experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for >> all.? (186) >> >> Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in >> recent centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail >> to prove anything for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are >> worse, the believers or the unbelievers. They are ?two classes of >> maniacs.? 190) >> >> ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) >> >> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather >> than the madhouse? >> >> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. >> >> Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? >> >> Jim Forest >> >> * * * >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> >> * Manage Your Membership: >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership:http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project:http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 11:07:08 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 11:07:08 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: <2363c8a9-1356-8d8f-a013-46344f789d5a@gmail.com> References: <2363c8a9-1356-8d8f-a013-46344f789d5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lauren Stacy Berdy, whoever you are I adore you. This was so perfect. Everything you say intrigues me. When we read Sophie's Choice in my book group, I believe the choice of the title was not which child she should give up to Mengele, but earlier in the novel, when she was asked to participate in trying to stop the Nazis and she didn't want to get involved. I said that what we learn about this time, or any time of evil, is not that "they" are bad people.We have the potential in ourselves to do evil and only by recognizing that can we tamp it down and not become a part of it. If we look at "them" as bad, that lets us off the hook. Needless to say they were appalled and could not believe they could ever do such things. Thanks for this contribution to the discussion. On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Lauren Stacy Berdy < lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com> wrote: > Dr. Percy read Carl Jung................I add a few more words on the > subject of the *boundaries* we make in our own heads........... if you > will................... > > almost everyone at one time has seen or heard or participated in some form > of Witch hunt and as grotesque as these things are they nevertheless > illustrate the disasters of projection. and the persistent blindness of us > humans to our OWN foibles. We loathe in others those things and only those > things that we secretly loathe in ourselves. > > A witch hunt begins when a person loses track of some trait of tendency > which he/she deems evil,satanic,demonic,or at least unworthy. it could be > something inconsequential as well.......All of us ALL OF US have a dark > side ( READ Lancelot) > > (According to the Hebrews tradition maybe G-d placed this wayward > tendency in us to prevent us from perishing from boredom............) > > but the witch hunter believe he doesn't have a black heart.the more his > little black heart clamors for attention the more he resists.........then > he starts to SEE IT IN OTHERS > > he knows someone has a black heart and it cant be him it must be someone > else........atrocious dimensions happen like the Shoah. > > we who are doing this projecting strongly affect us instead of just > INFORMING us. > > *I looked and looked and this I came to see that what I thought was you > and you* > > *was really me and me* > > Dr Percy once again is offering us a way to see one another to hear one > another. Forgive me my trespasses but in a way he *is* aligning us to see > one another and to hear one another. Will is no longer exclusively > preoccupied with his own personal vantage point. His process quickens > correctly upon meeting Ally. His identity his very self expands. and his > soul becomes saturated with depth. They are both no longer suffocating > under the the individual concerns and view them with a creative detachment. > A quiet source of strength is both theirs to be used unperturbed. > > Lauren Berdy > > > > Lauren Stacy Berdy(614) 314-4162 cell(754) 816-7508Lauren.Stacy.Berdy at gmail.comLaurenBrdy@aol.com > > LaurenStacyBerdy.com > > On 9/9/2016 6:38 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > > Janet, Jim, and Nancy, > > I've so appreciated your comments on Second Coming. I don't know about the > rest of the list, but I have been utterly buried in work. The good news is > that two of the projects that have me buried are Percy related. More news > on those if/ when appropriate. Thanks for soldiering on. > > Best wishes for good healing, Nancy! > > Rhonda > > PS -- Janet, I agree and would add that religious belief is often > manipulated to lead to killing, whether by Christians, Muslims, or others > of any stripe. I've read perceptive analysis on ISIS, for instance, that > indicates that the leaders are not believers so much as they recognize that > faith can become a powerful weapon when wielded by leaders, and that weapon > can be used for evil as well as righteousness. Certainly it's a lesson > history has shown us time and again. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 9, 2016, at 12:24 PM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: > > I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too > much. > > You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent > centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of > mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of > the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all > stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at > the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths > calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, > you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d > and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. > It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d > for conscience. > > But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely > here. > > Janet > > > > On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: > >> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming >> discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had >> intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been >> disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an >> exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on >> vacation in Norway. >> >> >> >> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): >> >> >> >> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only >> time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. >> Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had >> given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of >> himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- >> we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet >> quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to >> miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" >> >> >> >> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why >> is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next >> page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick >> sense of life return?? >> >> >> >> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse >> -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the >> possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) >> >> >> >> There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the >> mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the >> end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where >> does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world >> yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of >> violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide >> attractive. >> >> >> >> As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? >> (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack >> Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? >> >> >> >> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then >> 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, >> but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out >> from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that >> there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of >> the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that >> his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to >> answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the >> darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate >> scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for >> all.? (186) >> >> >> >> Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent >> centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything >> for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the >> unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) >> >> >> >> ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) >> >> >> >> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the >> madhouse? >> >> >> >> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. >> >> >> >> Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? >> >> >> >> Jim Forest >> >> >> >> * * * >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > > ------------------------------ > [image: Avast logo] > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhforest at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 11:12:37 2016 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 17:12:37 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming Message-ID: Janet, as always I appreciated your comments? >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. Nancy makes a little headway every day. She?s back to work (she?s a literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13. >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity, that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people ? Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? ? but was putting such sweeping declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett, Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous? God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between. Jim * * * On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: > I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too > much. > > You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent > centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of > mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of > the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all > stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at > the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths > calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, > you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d > and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. > It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d > for conscience. > > But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely > here. > > Janet > > > > On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: > >> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming >> discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had >> intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been >> disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an >> exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on >> vacation in Norway. >> >> >> >> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): >> >> >> >> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only >> time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. >> Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had >> given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of >> himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- >> we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet >> quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to >> miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" >> >> >> >> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why >> is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next >> page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick >> sense of life return?? >> >> >> >> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse >> -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the >> possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) >> >> >> >> There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the >> mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the >> end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where >> does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world >> yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of >> violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide >> attractive. >> >> >> >> As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? >> (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack >> Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? >> >> >> >> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then >> 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, >> but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out >> from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that >> there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of >> the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that >> his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to >> answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the >> darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate >> scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for >> all.? (186) >> >> >> >> Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent >> centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything >> for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the >> unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) >> >> >> >> ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) >> >> >> >> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the >> madhouse? >> >> >> >> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. >> >> >> >> Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? >> >> >> >> Jim Forest >> >> >> >> * * * >> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -- just out: *The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers:* http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ recent books: *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: * www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ *Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: * www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ *Books in print*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ *Jim & Nancy web site*: www.jimandnancyforest.com *Photo albums*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums *Facebook*: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 *Jim & Nancy Forest* Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kevinkeough710 at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 13:30:04 2016 From: kevinkeough710 at gmail.com (kevin keough) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 13:30:04 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, I am brand new to the list. I'm a 56 yo divorced clinical psychologist with two adult children living in Wilmington, Delaware. I got turned on to WP in college and the bug bit. I've read all of his non fiction and lots of fiction. I haven't learned all the rules for the list yet but I thought I'd jump in with two thought about the Second Coming without knowing the page numbers. The image-depiction of the young woman in the psychiatric hospital writing directions for an escape immediately following her shock treatment the following day has always been very evocative and powerful for me. Many times I've written to myself instructions/guidance during a more lucid and together time to be read when I am lost in the craziness of life--very much like telling myself how to exit the craziness/nut hut in my mind when I find myself lost in the cosmos. I've found this idea has intuitive appeal to patients I see who will write themselves their own directions for exiting craziness---written when they are in better spots. The other major theme is Percy's discussion of non-suicides and ex-suicides. I always felt quite at home with this observation. It's brought me comfort. Again, I've found patients-especially those struggling with suicidal feelings find some solace in this view point. So many other exceptional things about this book but I'll keep it short. I will look to find where I introduce myself and make sure I am following directions properly. It is very nice to be a part of this group of people. Thank you for having me. Kevin Keough Dr. Kevin L. Keough 215 South Bancroft Parkway Wilmington, Delaware 19805 (W) 302.654.5075 (C) 302.650.4686 On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Jim Forest wrote: > Janet, as always I appreciated your comments? > > > > >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too > much. > > > > Nancy makes a little headway every day. She?s back to work (she?s a > literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously > untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13. > > > > >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent > centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet peeve > of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all > of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all > stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at > the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths > calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, > you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d > and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. > It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d > for conscience. > > > > I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many > places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity, > that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people ? > Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? ? but was putting such sweeping > declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett, > Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind > one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous? > > > > God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths > (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between. > > > > Jim > > > > * * * > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: > >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too >> much. >> >> You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent >> centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of >> mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of >> the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all >> stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at >> the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths >> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, >> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d >> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. >> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d >> for conscience. >> >> But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely >> here. >> >> Janet >> >> >> >> On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: >> >>> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming >>> discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had >>> intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been >>> disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an >>> exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on >>> vacation in Norway. >>> >>> >>> >>> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): >>> >>> >>> >>> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only >>> time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. >>> Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had >>> given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of >>> himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- >>> we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet >>> quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people >>> to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" >>> >>> >>> >>> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why >>> is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next >>> page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick >>> sense of life return?? >>> >>> >>> >>> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse >>> -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the >>> possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) >>> >>> >>> >>> There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the >>> mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the >>> end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where >>> does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world >>> yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of >>> violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide >>> attractive. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? >>> (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack >>> Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? >>> >>> >>> >>> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then >>> 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, >>> but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out >>> from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that >>> there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of >>> the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that >>> his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to >>> answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the >>> darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate >>> scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for >>> all.? (186) >>> >>> >>> >>> Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent >>> centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything >>> for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the >>> unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) >>> >>> >>> >>> ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) >>> >>> >>> >>> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the >>> madhouse? >>> >>> >>> >>> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. >>> >>> >>> >>> Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jim Forest >>> >>> >>> >>> * * * >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/piper >> mail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailm >> an/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > > -- > just out: > > *The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers:* > http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ > > recent books: > > *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: * > www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ > *Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: * > www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ > > *Books in print*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ > *Jim & Nancy web site*: www.jimandnancyforest.com > *Photo albums*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums > *Facebook*: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 > > *Jim & Nancy Forest* > Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands > > * * * > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 13:54:28 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 13:54:28 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Kevin, I shall consider myself the official greeter for this book's discussion. Welcome to the List. As far as I can see you are doing a lot better than I did when I first joined. I kept writing the same letter repeatedly because I wasn't getting any responses and didn't realize that each post was there for all time as each letter was anthologized. Your comments are insightful and most welcome. What I love is that we all read and comment from different perspectives and Percy appeals to people of all stripes. (He also does not appeal to too many. But that's another story.) Percy studied medicine and hope to become a psychiatrist. His plans were put off because of tuberculosis and he read during his recuperation. He decided to change directions and lucky us that he did. So do feel free to have your say any time, even to open up new things. I can tell you from personal experience that members of the list are most welcoming. I am so happy that you joined the discussion. If you haven't see the rest of it on this book, you only need go to the archives and you can catch up. I think this will work: Percy-L Info Page Janet Cantor Percy-L Info Page On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 1:30 PM, kevin keough wrote: > Hello All, > > I am brand new to the list. I'm a 56 yo divorced clinical psychologist > with two adult children living in Wilmington, Delaware. I got turned on to > WP in college and the bug bit. I've read all of his non fiction and lots > of fiction. > > I haven't learned all the rules for the list yet but I thought I'd jump in > with two thought about the Second Coming without knowing the page numbers. > > The image-depiction of the young woman in the psychiatric hospital writing > directions for an escape immediately following her shock treatment the > following day has always been very evocative and powerful for me. Many > times I've written to myself instructions/guidance during a more lucid and > together time to be read when I am lost in the craziness of life--very much > like telling myself how to exit the craziness/nut hut in my mind when I > find myself lost in the cosmos. I've found this idea has intuitive appeal > to patients I see who will write themselves their own directions for > exiting craziness---written when they are in better spots. > > The other major theme is Percy's discussion of non-suicides and > ex-suicides. I always felt quite at home with this observation. It's > brought me comfort. Again, I've found patients-especially those > struggling with suicidal feelings find some solace in this view point. > > So many other exceptional things about this book but I'll keep it short. > I will look to find where I introduce myself and make sure I am following > directions properly. > > It is very nice to be a part of this group of people. Thank you for > having me. > > Kevin Keough > > Dr. Kevin L. Keough > 215 South Bancroft Parkway > Wilmington, Delaware 19805 > (W) 302.654.5075 > (C) 302.650.4686 > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Jim Forest wrote: > >> Janet, as always I appreciated your comments? >> >> >> >> >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back >> too much. >> >> >> >> Nancy makes a little headway every day. She?s back to work (she?s a >> literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously >> untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13. >> >> >> >> >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in >> recent centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet >> peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count >> all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of >> all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died >> at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths >> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, >> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d >> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. >> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d >> for conscience. >> >> >> >> I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many >> places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity, >> that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people ? >> Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? ? but was putting such sweeping >> declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett, >> Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind >> one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous? >> >> >> >> God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths >> (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between. >> >> >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> * * * >> >> On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: >> >>> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too >>> much. >>> >>> You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent >>> centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of >>> mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of >>> the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all >>> stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at >>> the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths >>> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, >>> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d >>> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. >>> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d >>> for conscience. >>> >>> But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less >>> lonely here. >>> >>> Janet >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming >>>> discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had >>>> intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been >>>> disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an >>>> exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on >>>> vacation in Norway. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the >>>> only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. >>>> Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had >>>> given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of >>>> himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- >>>> we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet >>>> quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people >>>> to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: >>>> ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next >>>> page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick >>>> sense of life return?? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise >>>> greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but >>>> with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on >>>> p 131!) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the >>>> mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the >>>> end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where >>>> does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world >>>> yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of >>>> violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide >>>> attractive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? >>>> (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack >>>> Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. >>>> Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave >>>> quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw >>>> God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating >>>> that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one >>>> of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides >>>> that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt >>>> to answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of >>>> the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the >>>> ultimate scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once >>>> and for all.? (186) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent >>>> centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything >>>> for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the >>>> unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the >>>> madhouse? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim Forest >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/piper >>> mail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailm >>> an/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> just out: >> >> *The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers:* >> http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ >> >> recent books: >> >> *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: * >> www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ >> *Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: * >> www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ >> >> *Books in print*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ >> *Jim & Nancy web site*: www.jimandnancyforest.com >> *Photo albums*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums >> *Facebook*: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 >> >> *Jim & Nancy Forest* >> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> >> * * * >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/piper >> mail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailm >> an/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sat Sep 10 17:32:09 2016 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 21:32:09 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Welcome Kevin! As far as my understanding of our culture here, having been a long time list member, you are following protocol quite nicely. :-) I am glad you've joined us. Given Percy's focus on the dis-ease that plagues humanity, I'm looking forward to more of your insights. So many of his characters were patients, therapists (or both)! Here's a question for Kevin or any other Percyan out there on the list -- Percy said war was better than an ordinary Wednesday afternoon ... But what might he (and/or what do we) make of a world where war has become so blas? that it feels like any Wednesday? Just random thoughts on an ordinary Saturday (which is no better than any given Wednesday). Hope y'all have a good one, where ever you may be! Rhonda Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2016, at 10:30 AM, kevin keough > wrote: Hello All, I am brand new to the list. I'm a 56 yo divorced clinical psychologist with two adult children living in Wilmington, Delaware. I got turned on to WP in college and the bug bit. I've read all of his non fiction and lots of fiction. I haven't learned all the rules for the list yet but I thought I'd jump in with two thought about the Second Coming without knowing the page numbers. The image-depiction of the young woman in the psychiatric hospital writing directions for an escape immediately following her shock treatment the following day has always been very evocative and powerful for me. Many times I've written to myself instructions/guidance during a more lucid and together time to be read when I am lost in the craziness of life--very much like telling myself how to exit the craziness/nut hut in my mind when I find myself lost in the cosmos. I've found this idea has intuitive appeal to patients I see who will write themselves their own directions for exiting craziness---written when they are in better spots. The other major theme is Percy's discussion of non-suicides and ex-suicides. I always felt quite at home with this observation. It's brought me comfort. Again, I've found patients-especially those struggling with suicidal feelings find some solace in this view point. So many other exceptional things about this book but I'll keep it short. I will look to find where I introduce myself and make sure I am following directions properly. It is very nice to be a part of this group of people. Thank you for having me. Kevin Keough Dr. Kevin L. Keough 215 South Bancroft Parkway Wilmington, Delaware 19805 (W) 302.654.5075 (C) 302.650.4686 On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Jim Forest > wrote: Janet, as always I appreciated your comments? >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. Nancy makes a little headway every day. She?s back to work (she?s a literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13. >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity, that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people ? Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? ? but was putting such sweeping declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett, Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous? God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between. Jim * * * On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" > wrote: Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on vacation in Norway. Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick sense of life return?? There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide attractive. As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for all.? (186) Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the madhouse? I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? Jim Forest * * * -- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- just out: The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers: http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ recent books: Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ Books in print: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands * * * * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Sat Sep 10 23:30:20 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 23:30:20 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is in response to Rhonda McDonnell's questions: I am not sure Percy meant war as in going to war because a country is an aggressor. I think he meant that for many daily life can be so humdrum that a cataclysmic event can shake us out of our doldrums and make us feel more alive. A tornado or a hurricane that threatens works just as well in his fiction or in his essays to make the same point. It is akin to the idea in Percy that an accident shakes a day up and takes a Percy character out of his malaise. I think it is also akin to the thought that knowing suicide is available calms down someone who wants to commit suicide and makes the need less strongly felt. I don't think we are more immune to reaction to war than we ever were. Horrors go on all the time. The only time we get less blas? or really revved up is when we are harmed. A war in Aleppo, no matter how horrific it is, can be more easily ignored when it is happening all the way over there, than when people aligned with those bad actors mow down people in an American city. My two cents. Janet Cantor On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:32 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL wrote: > Welcome Kevin! > > As far as my understanding of our culture here, having been a long time > list member, you are following protocol quite nicely. :-) > > I am glad you've joined us. Given Percy's focus on the dis-ease that > plagues humanity, I'm looking forward to more of your insights. So many of > his characters were patients, therapists (or both)! > > Here's a question for Kevin or any other Percyan out there on the list -- > Percy said war was better than an ordinary Wednesday afternoon ... But what > might he (and/or what do we) make of a world where war has become so blas? > that it feels like any Wednesday? > > Just random thoughts on an ordinary Saturday (which is no better than any > given Wednesday). > > Hope y'all have a good one, where ever you may be! > > Rhonda > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 10, 2016, at 10:30 AM, kevin keough > wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am brand new to the list. I'm a 56 yo divorced clinical psychologist > with two adult children living in Wilmington, Delaware. I got turned on to > WP in college and the bug bit. I've read all of his non fiction and lots > of fiction. > > I haven't learned all the rules for the list yet but I thought I'd jump in > with two thought about the Second Coming without knowing the page numbers. > > The image-depiction of the young woman in the psychiatric hospital writing > directions for an escape immediately following her shock treatment the > following day has always been very evocative and powerful for me. Many > times I've written to myself instructions/guidance during a more lucid and > together time to be read when I am lost in the craziness of life--very much > like telling myself how to exit the craziness/nut hut in my mind when I > find myself lost in the cosmos. I've found this idea has intuitive appeal > to patients I see who will write themselves their own directions for > exiting craziness---written when they are in better spots. > > The other major theme is Percy's discussion of non-suicides and > ex-suicides. I always felt quite at home with this observation. It's > brought me comfort. Again, I've found patients-especially those > struggling with suicidal feelings find some solace in this view point. > > So many other exceptional things about this book but I'll keep it short. > I will look to find where I introduce myself and make sure I am following > directions properly. > > It is very nice to be a part of this group of people. Thank you for > having me. > > Kevin Keough > > Dr. Kevin L. Keough > 215 South Bancroft Parkway > Wilmington, Delaware 19805 > (W) 302.654.5075 > (C) 302.650.4686 > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Jim Forest wrote: > >> Janet, as always I appreciated your comments? >> >> >> >> >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back >> too much. >> >> >> >> Nancy makes a little headway every day. She?s back to work (she?s a >> literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously >> untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13. >> >> >> >> >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in >> recent centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet >> peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count >> all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of >> all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died >> at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths >> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, >> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d >> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. >> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d >> for conscience. >> >> >> >> I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many >> places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity, >> that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people ? >> Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? ? but was putting such sweeping >> declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett, >> Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind >> one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous? >> >> >> >> God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths >> (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between. >> >> >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> * * * >> >> On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . wrote: >> >>> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too >>> much. >>> >>> You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent >>> centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of >>> mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of >>> the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all >>> stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at >>> the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths >>> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, >>> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d >>> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. >>> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d >>> for conscience. >>> >>> But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less >>> lonely here. >>> >>> Janet >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming >>>> discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had >>>> intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been >>>> disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an >>>> exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on >>>> vacation in Norway. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the >>>> only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. >>>> Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had >>>> given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of >>>> himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- >>>> we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet >>>> quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people >>>> to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: >>>> ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next >>>> page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick >>>> sense of life return?? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise >>>> greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but >>>> with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on >>>> p 131!) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the >>>> mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the >>>> end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where >>>> does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world >>>> yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of >>>> violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide >>>> attractive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? >>>> (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack >>>> Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. >>>> Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave >>>> quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw >>>> God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating >>>> that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one >>>> of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides >>>> that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt >>>> to answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of >>>> the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the >>>> ultimate scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once >>>> and for all.? (186) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent >>>> centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything >>>> for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the >>>> unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the >>>> madhouse? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jim Forest >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * * * >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/piper >>> mail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailm >>> an/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> just out: >> >> *The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers:* >> http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ >> >> recent books: >> >> *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: * >> www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ >> *Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: * >> www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ >> >> *Books in print*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ >> *Jim & Nancy web site*: www.jimandnancyforest.com >> *Photo albums*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums >> *Facebook*: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 >> >> *Jim & Nancy Forest* >> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands >> >> * * * >> >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/piper >> mail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailm >> an/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/ > mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sun Sep 11 01:27:54 2016 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 05:27:54 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: In reply to Janet: I do believe Percy meant actual war. While he also speaks of hurricanes and such natural disasters as a way of feeling good in bad environments, when he wrote of war he wrote about his Uncle Will's thrill when WWII broke out and Will's subsequent dismay in finding that he was too old to return to the front. But after nearly 15 years of this unending and yet mostly unacknowledged war(s), something very different seems to be afoot. We are, I fear, in times even more odd than Percy's own. Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2016, at 8:30 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: This is in response to Rhonda McDonnell's questions: I am not sure Percy meant war as in going to war because a country is an aggressor. I think he meant that for many daily life can be so humdrum that a cataclysmic event can shake us out of our doldrums and make us feel more alive. A tornado or a hurricane that threatens works just as well in his fiction or in his essays to make the same point. It is akin to the idea in Percy that an accident shakes a day up and takes a Percy character out of his malaise. I think it is also akin to the thought that knowing suicide is available calms down someone who wants to commit suicide and makes the need less strongly felt. I don't think we are more immune to reaction to war than we ever were. Horrors go on all the time. The only time we get less blas? or really revved up is when we are harmed. A war in Aleppo, no matter how horrific it is, can be more easily ignored when it is happening all the way over there, than when people aligned with those bad actors mow down people in an American city. My two cents. Janet Cantor On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:32 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL > wrote: Welcome Kevin! As far as my understanding of our culture here, having been a long time list member, you are following protocol quite nicely. :-) I am glad you've joined us. Given Percy's focus on the dis-ease that plagues humanity, I'm looking forward to more of your insights. So many of his characters were patients, therapists (or both)! Here's a question for Kevin or any other Percyan out there on the list -- Percy said war was better than an ordinary Wednesday afternoon ... But what might he (and/or what do we) make of a world where war has become so blas? that it feels like any Wednesday? Just random thoughts on an ordinary Saturday (which is no better than any given Wednesday). Hope y'all have a good one, where ever you may be! Rhonda Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2016, at 10:30 AM, kevin keough > wrote: Hello All, I am brand new to the list. I'm a 56 yo divorced clinical psychologist with two adult children living in Wilmington, Delaware. I got turned on to WP in college and the bug bit. I've read all of his non fiction and lots of fiction. I haven't learned all the rules for the list yet but I thought I'd jump in with two thought about the Second Coming without knowing the page numbers. The image-depiction of the young woman in the psychiatric hospital writing directions for an escape immediately following her shock treatment the following day has always been very evocative and powerful for me. Many times I've written to myself instructions/guidance during a more lucid and together time to be read when I am lost in the craziness of life--very much like telling myself how to exit the craziness/nut hut in my mind when I find myself lost in the cosmos. I've found this idea has intuitive appeal to patients I see who will write themselves their own directions for exiting craziness---written when they are in better spots. The other major theme is Percy's discussion of non-suicides and ex-suicides. I always felt quite at home with this observation. It's brought me comfort. Again, I've found patients-especially those struggling with suicidal feelings find some solace in this view point. So many other exceptional things about this book but I'll keep it short. I will look to find where I introduce myself and make sure I am following directions properly. It is very nice to be a part of this group of people. Thank you for having me. Kevin Keough Dr. Kevin L. Keough 215 South Bancroft Parkway Wilmington, Delaware 19805 (W) 302.654.5075 (C) 302.650.4686 On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Jim Forest > wrote: Janet, as always I appreciated your comments? >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. Nancy makes a little headway every day. She?s back to work (she?s a literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13. >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity, that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people ? Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? ? but was putting such sweeping declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett, Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous? God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between. Jim * * * On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . > wrote: I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too much. You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million, you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them. It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d for conscience. But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less lonely here. Janet On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" > wrote: Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on vacation in Norway. Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199): I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says ?the only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody. Disaster gave me leave to act.? (122) Then on the next page: ?Something had given [Will] leave to live in the present ? in the quiet center of himself?. Not once had he been present for his life.? (Later on -- p 153 -- we learn that he married Marion ?because he pleased her so much.?) Janet quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?" Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question: ?Why is it that without death one misses one?s life?? (124) And on the next page: ?How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick sense of life return?? There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise greenhouse -- but it?s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will?s Luger is described on p 131!) There is Will?s realization is anger having been, up to now, the mainspring of his life. (133) ?You were possessed by anger ? which in the end you turned on yourself.? Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: ?Where does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of violence all is in the end impotence?? These are thoughts that make suicide attractive. As I read it, the book?s pivotal question is: ?Do you believe in God?? (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack Curl, who finds it embarrassing: ?How?s that?? ?You know, God.? It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy. Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God?s hand -- to draw God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It?s nothing less than ?one of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.? Will decides that his father?s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt to answer the ?are You there?? question. Either Will will pry a yes out of the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven?s silence. It?s ?the ultimate scientific experiment?. I aim to settle the question of God once and for all.? (186) Sadly Christians themselves, who ?have killed off more people in recent centuries than all other people put together? (188), fail to prove anything for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the unbelievers. They are ?two classes of maniacs.? 190) ?So it was that Will Barrett went mad.? (197) It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the madhouse? I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day. Janet, I know you?re there. Anybody else? Jim Forest * * * -- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -- just out: The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers: http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/ recent books: Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/ Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/ Books in print: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/ Jim & Nancy web site: www.jimandnancyforest.com Photo albums: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1 Jim & Nancy Forest Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands * * * * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 21:10:06 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 21:10:06 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Janet Cantor begins the last of the slow read of The Second Coming Pages 251 to the end Message-ID: This is a chock full part of the book. So I am skipping around. You can choose the things you wish to highlight. But do join me in this sendoff of the slow read. Now we shall wind up dealing with this fairy tale of sweetness. Percy often talks about how we conduct ourselves on an ordinary four o'clock on a Thursday afternoon. Are we drifting or does our life have meaning? The idea can be compared to how do we behave when no one is looking. So when on Page 258 Allie asks herself if [loving is a filling of the four o'clock gap or is it more], this is her way of trying to make sense out of this new feeling of excitement because the man is back. To date, her whole life is a kind of four o'clock in the afternoon gap. We return to this on pages 354 and 355 as Will interrupts his dealing to be able to get back to Allie at four o'clock. As the idea emerges of Will pleasing Kitty by taking on becoming Allie's guardian, concomitant with our knowledge that Kitty isn't yet aware of Will's already knowing and liking Allie, when she asks him to do this, the reader is waiting for the explosion when she finds out. Will broaches the subject with Allison. Allie begins using expressions she has become familiar with from people in her life before. "Oh, my stars yes" is from Aunt Grace, and"Are my parents out to screw me?" comes from her friend from the home, Kelso. I loved when Allie thought that, "I can talk like anybody else but not like me." Page 261. She is not really born again yet. Page 263 is one of the loveliest of the book. Allie is becoming sexually awakened and her language becomes oh, boy almond joy. Walker is at his endearing language bending best. You really believe this woman exists with her goofy mangled expressions. And Will makes the glorious observation (Sutter being marginally insane and seeing all things negatively) "You're Sutter turned happy." Will, the tourist in his own life, the wayfarer seeking answers, the successful appearing human being, but lost soul who likes to do good for others to try to give his life meaning, meets up with the tabula rasa Allie and she becomes Sutter turned happy. The reader gets a delicious reward for hanging in while this story unfolds.And the end of this page is so adorable it hurts. They are a perfect physical fit and he is the lid for her pot. Now another memory of his father. Choose death or life? A mention of Ross Alexander being dead and Groucho Marx being alive ends page 269. Alexander was a suicide by gunshot. Marx is the playful with language entertainer. A hint about what Will is going to choose for his life? Will muses on his death, did he defeat it for now or is it what he really loves? If it comes, then he will know, won't he? He will get his answer. He muses that not to know the name of his enemy is already to be killed by him. But he figures out that the 20th century is the one with the love of death, and, dancing in the rain, literally, he is happy; he now knows the name of his enemy, death. As he carries on in the rain thinking through this discovery, the question emerges who could decipher which is the one who came from the mental hospital and which is the solidest citizen of the community. I would like others to take on pages 272 to 274 with their negative rumination. Will goes to sleep. Then we find this, in the middle of page 275 from a memory in a dream as he sits in a field, "She found him there in the in the cool darkness watching reflections of light playing against the damp masonry..." Aha, another reflection of light. Percy uses this repeatedly. It is not an accident of repetitiveness or poor editing. It is deliberate. After pages of somber, depressing reflections, we get this small phrase. Is it, as Jay Tolson suggested to me, that Percy wants us not to forget that we exist under the reflected light of G-d's glory? Is this what Percy wants us to be reminded to remember? It shows up often enough in this section, - page 288 - The sun rested on the rim of the gorge like a copper plate on a shelf - page 297 - ...there grew a single gold poplar which caught the sun like a yellow haired girl coming out of the forest - just two examples. I see these things as G-d, love coming to Will to save him. He fell out of that cave where he went to look for answers and found one. The best one. And while we are talking about repetitions, there are those crow's feet which seem to constantly fascinate Percy. Page 283 - Kitty is talking to Will about her plans for Allie and "For the first time the merry Polly Bergen wrinkles at the corner of her eyes ironed out showing white." Page 276 - The Jews. They never have a home, always wandering, so one place was the same as another and the Jew is able to feel at home anywhere. Will can belong wherever he chooses yet he doesn't feel at home anywhere (yet). On page 312 - We have another dung eater.A reminder of the beginning of The Moviegoer. Page 328 - The innocence of The Blue Lagoon only told in Percy's original best and the end of this page to the end of the next page are perfect. Pages 346 and 347 - Will uses people missing parts but talented in the right areas who will cobble together a crew of hard workers and they will help Allison run her many greenhouses thus currently useless people will become useful and Allison will be able to run a successful business and all will be well. Remember this is a fairy tale. But it fills all of the best enjoyment needs of the reader. Orderlies give hope to a patient and it makes Will ask if goodness comes tricked out as fakery and fondness and is G-d himself that sly. The book ends with Will knowing what he wants and he will go after it. His name is the right one for him at last. For Percy readers we again confront his major theme. First think of someone and care for someone and that will open you up to receive G-d's grace. Love of sweet innocent Allie, someone new for Will to save and take care of, will set them on the path. What a beautiful book to read. I liked: Page 252 - Allie renarks to herself, "How good life must be once you get the hang of it..." Page 253 - What if they got married, she fantasized. A winding up, a polishing off. In short, stuck like her mother and father. But later marriage will be a pleasure with Will, one that she longs for. Page 289 - When the vagabond Will sinks into his hot bath, he wonders if happiness is no more than having something you've done without for a long time... Page 355 - in a section with lots of talk about eyes, seeing things differently, Will tells Allie,"..."I love to sit and watch your eyes, which see everything exactly as it is..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 00:46:35 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 00:46:35 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] A long but essential Percy interview - a lot of it pertinent to our discussion - Janet Cantor Message-ID: *One paragraph of this article is particularly worth reading now:* *The Second Coming* was a sure-enough love story?a genre I would ordinarily steer clear of. What made it possible was the, to me, appealing notion of the encounter of Allie and Will, like the crossing of two lines on a graph, one going up, and other down: the man who has ?succeeded? in life, made it, has the best of worlds, and yet falls down in sand traps on the golf course, gazes at clouds and is haunted by memory, is in fact in despair; the girl, a total ?failure,? a schizophrenic who has flunked life, as she puts it, yet who despite all sees the world afresh and full of hope. It was the paradox of it that interested me. What happens when he meets her? What is the effect on his ghostlike consciousness of her strange, yet prescient, schizophrenic speech? Paris Review - The Art of Fiction No. 97, Walker Percy www.the*parisreview*.org/*interviews*/.../the-*art-of-fiction*-no-97-*walke* ... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From honeyjbc at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 09:08:20 2016 From: honeyjbc at gmail.com (honeyjbc1 .) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:08:20 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] janet cantor with some Percy information Message-ID: Message body The 9/26/16 issue of National Review was fabulous. It seemed to have a theme running through it, what it means to be human. It included a review of Professor Carlos Eire's new gigantic tome, The Reformations, a study of the many ways religion changed over the course of two hundred years. There was a tribute to Gene Wilder and in particular Blazing Saddles, which reminded me of when we saw that movie as part of a Mel Brooks tribute, where Mel Brooks asked us, "Could this movie be made today?" We all knew, no, it could not. In other words we are not allowed to say forbidden things these days. When speech is interfered with, so is freedom. There was also a review of the new Tom Wolfe book about Darwinism. I wrote a letter to Jack Fowler, the publisher of NR, to thank him, which included this: "I also love Tom Wolfe and enjoyed that review of his new book. It is speech that separates humans from the rest of G-d's creations. Those who love Darwin overlook the miracles of what makes us human - love and the ability to worship a higher being. So many... prefer to worship in their politics and brag that ethics are enough, that they no longer believe. And I adored that the article had good mentions and analyses of Walker Percy. I will keep this review and share it with the Percy List." Here is the link to the review: Tom Wolfe's "The Kingdom of Speech" - National Review https://www2.*nationalreview*.com/node/439824 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: