[percy-l] the slow read of The Second Coming
honeyjbc1 .
honeyjbc at gmail.com
Sat Sep 10 23:30:20 EDT 2016
This is in response to Rhonda McDonnell's questions:
I am not sure Percy meant war as in going to war because a country is an
aggressor. I think he meant that for many daily life can be so humdrum that
a cataclysmic event can shake us out of our doldrums and make us feel more
alive. A tornado or a hurricane that threatens works just as well in his
fiction or in his essays to make the same point.
It is akin to the idea in Percy that an accident shakes a day up and takes
a Percy character out of his malaise. I think it is also akin to the
thought that knowing suicide is available calms down someone who wants to
commit suicide and makes the need less strongly felt.
I don't think we are more immune to reaction to war than we ever were.
Horrors go on all the time. The only time we get less blasé or really
revved up is when we are harmed.
A war in Aleppo, no matter how horrific it is, can be more easily ignored
when it is happening all the way over there, than when people aligned with
those bad actors mow down people in an American city.
My two cents.
Janet Cantor
On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 5:32 PM, RHONDA MCDONNELL <rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com>
wrote:
> Welcome Kevin!
>
> As far as my understanding of our culture here, having been a long time
> list member, you are following protocol quite nicely. :-)
>
> I am glad you've joined us. Given Percy's focus on the dis-ease that
> plagues humanity, I'm looking forward to more of your insights. So many of
> his characters were patients, therapists (or both)!
>
> Here's a question for Kevin or any other Percyan out there on the list --
> Percy said war was better than an ordinary Wednesday afternoon ... But what
> might he (and/or what do we) make of a world where war has become so blasé
> that it feels like any Wednesday?
>
> Just random thoughts on an ordinary Saturday (which is no better than any
> given Wednesday).
>
> Hope y'all have a good one, where ever you may be!
>
> Rhonda
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 10, 2016, at 10:30 AM, kevin keough <kevinkeough710 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> I am brand new to the list. I'm a 56 yo divorced clinical psychologist
> with two adult children living in Wilmington, Delaware. I got turned on to
> WP in college and the bug bit. I've read all of his non fiction and lots
> of fiction.
>
> I haven't learned all the rules for the list yet but I thought I'd jump in
> with two thought about the Second Coming without knowing the page numbers.
>
> The image-depiction of the young woman in the psychiatric hospital writing
> directions for an escape immediately following her shock treatment the
> following day has always been very evocative and powerful for me. Many
> times I've written to myself instructions/guidance during a more lucid and
> together time to be read when I am lost in the craziness of life--very much
> like telling myself how to exit the craziness/nut hut in my mind when I
> find myself lost in the cosmos. I've found this idea has intuitive appeal
> to patients I see who will write themselves their own directions for
> exiting craziness---written when they are in better spots.
>
> The other major theme is Percy's discussion of non-suicides and
> ex-suicides. I always felt quite at home with this observation. It's
> brought me comfort. Again, I've found patients-especially those
> struggling with suicidal feelings find some solace in this view point.
>
> So many other exceptional things about this book but I'll keep it short.
> I will look to find where I introduce myself and make sure I am following
> directions properly.
>
> It is very nice to be a part of this group of people. Thank you for
> having me.
>
> Kevin Keough
>
> Dr. Kevin L. Keough
> 215 South Bancroft Parkway
> Wilmington, Delaware 19805
> (W) 302.654.5075
> (C) 302.650.4686
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Jim Forest <jhforest at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Janet, as always I appreciated your comments…
>>
>>
>>
>> >> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back
>> too much.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nancy makes a little headway every day. She’s back to work (she’s a
>> literary translator). Her current project is a set of previously
>> untranslated letters written by Anne Frank when she was 13.
>>
>>
>>
>> >>You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in
>> recent centuries that all others put together. This is a fallacy and a pet
>> peeve of mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count
>> all of the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of
>> all stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died
>> at the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths
>> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million,
>> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d
>> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them.
>> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d
>> for conscience.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you are right about the numbers but am not sure, in the many
>> places where Percy comments negatively on the failures of Christianity,
>> that Percy was setting out to demonstrate who killed the more people —
>> Nazis, Communists, Moslems, Christians? — but was putting such sweeping
>> declarations to show some of the reasons his protagonists (Will Barrett,
>> Tom More) are estranged Christians. Christians whose main choices remind
>> one of the Sermon on the Mount are perhaps not so numerous…
>>
>>
>>
>> God knows a lot of people have been killed by Christians. The Fr Smiths
>> (Thanatos Syndrome) are few and far between.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> * * *
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 9:23 PM, honeyjbc1 . <honeyjbc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hope Nancy's arm heals well and quickly and doesn't hold her back too
>>> much.
>>>
>>> You quote Percy saying that Christians have killed more people in recent
>>> centuries that all others put together.This is a fallacy and a pet peeve of
>>> mine. True Christians have done a lot of killing. But if you count all of
>>> the killing throughout time since Christians have killed infidels of all
>>> stripes, it doesn't make a dent in the tens of millions who have died at
>>> the hands of G-dless Nazis or Communists. If you want to see deaths
>>> calculated in tens of millions and certainly well over a hundred million,
>>> you have to go to the real champions, those people who decide they are G-d
>>> and who make it illegal to worship anyone, let alone any G-d before them.
>>> It is why I try to tell people that atheism is not acceptable. We need G-d
>>> for conscience.
>>>
>>> But pet peeve aside, welcome aboard and I do wish we could be less
>>> lonely here.
>>>
>>> Janet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 6, 2016 9:04 AM, "Jim Forest" <jhforest at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Janet, for the last two contributions to the Second Coming
>>>> discussion -- very thorough summaries and great quotes from the book. I had
>>>> intended to respond to the first one sooner but domestic life has been
>>>> disrupted by Nancy breaking her right arm; she was knocked down by an
>>>> exuberant dog -- a Newfoundland of Viking descent -- while we were on
>>>> vacation in Norway.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Re section V of The Second Coming (pages 122-199):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am struck by how passive Will Barrett tends to be -- he says “the
>>>> only time I knew what to do was when something bad happened to somebody.
>>>> Disaster gave me leave to act.” (122) Then on the next page: “Something had
>>>> given [Will] leave to live in the present … in the quiet center of
>>>> himself…. Not once had he been present for his life.” (Later on -- p 153 --
>>>> we learn that he married Marion “because he pleased her so much.”) Janet
>>>> quoted the haunting sentence that follows: "Is it possible for people
>>>> to miss their lives in the same way one misses a plane?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then comes the great segment on funerals followed by this question:
>>>> “Why is it that without death one misses one’s life?” (124) And on the next
>>>> page: “How can it be that only with death and dying does the sharp quick
>>>> sense of life return?”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is an Eden-like aspect to Second Coming -- the paradise
>>>> greenhouse -- but it’s Eden after the Fall. Eden with death. Eden -- but
>>>> with the possibility of suicide. (How vividly Will’s Luger is described on
>>>> p 131!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is Will’s realization is anger having been, up to now, the
>>>> mainspring of his life. (133) “You were possessed by anger … which in the
>>>> end you turned on yourself.” Later -- 171 -- Will asks the question: “Where
>>>> does such rage come from? From the discovery that in the end the world
>>>> yields only to violence, that only the violent bear it away, that short of
>>>> violence all is in the end impotence?” These are thoughts that make suicide
>>>> attractive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I read it, the book’s pivotal question is: ”Do you believe in God?”
>>>> (136) Percy tucks this into a comic exchange with Episcopal priest Jack
>>>> Curl, who finds it embarrassing: “How’s that?” “You know, God.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It really is a life-or-death question for Will as it was for Percy.
>>>> Then 45 pages later (181) we find Will has come up with a way (his cave
>>>> quest, but as yet unrevealed to the reader) to force God’s hand -- to draw
>>>> God out from behind the curtain or not show up, in which case demonstrating
>>>> that there is nothing/noone behind the curtain. It’s nothing less than “one
>>>> of the strangest schemes ever hit upon by the mind of man.” Will decides
>>>> that his father’s suicide was wasted -- it failed to answer or even attempt
>>>> to answer the “are You there?” question. Either Will will pry a yes out of
>>>> the darkness of heaven or he will die of heaven’s silence. It’s “the
>>>> ultimate scientific experiment…. I aim to settle the question of God once
>>>> and for all.” (186)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sadly Christians themselves, who “have killed off more people in recent
>>>> centuries than all other people put together” (188), fail to prove anything
>>>> for Will. (Great paragraphs follow on which are worse, the believers or the
>>>> unbelievers. They are “two classes of maniacs.” 190)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “So it was that Will Barrett went mad.” (197)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is a madness, however, that leads to the greenhouse rather than the
>>>> madhouse…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hope to carry on about pages 199 to 250 tomorrow or the next day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Janet, I know you’re there. Anybody else?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim Forest
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * * *
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> just out:
>>
>> *The Root of War is Fear: Thomas Merton's Advice to Peacemakers:*
>> http://jimandnancyforest.com/2016/06/root-of-war-is-fear/
>>
>> recent books:
>>
>> *Loving Our Enemies: Reflections on the Hardest Commandment: *
>> www.jimandnancyforest.com/2014/07/loving-our-enemies/
>> *Saint Nicholas and the Nine Gold Coins: *
>> www.jimandnancyforest.com/2015/04/saint-nicholas-and-the-nine-gold-coins/
>>
>> *Books in print*: www.jimandnancyforest.com/books/
>> *Jim & Nancy web site*: www.jimandnancyforest.com
>> *Photo albums*: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimforest/albums
>> *Facebook*: https://www.facebook.com/jim.forest1
>>
>> *Jim & Nancy Forest*
>> Kanisstraat 5 / 1811 GJ Alkmaar / The Netherlands
>>
>> * * *
>>
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>>
>>
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