From larsonovic at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 18:37:13 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:37:13 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot Message-ID: Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. In *Lancelot*, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. Mike Larson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Jul 1 18:56:25 2020 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 22:56:25 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the perspective, Michael. Wondering what Father John is going to say has taken up some mental energy on my end, as well. I?ve always imagined that he would note Lance?s hypocrisy and, as a stand in for God, present the ?maculate Christ? as Tom Moore sees in Love in the Ruins. In other words, Father John would speak to Lancelot not as a judge or even a priest, but as a fellow sinner who is, even so, a believer. Cheers, Rhonda McDonnell Sent from my iPhone On Jul 1, 2020, at 6:38 PM, Michael Larson wrote: ? Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. In Lancelot, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. Mike Larson ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 16:16:20 2020 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Berdy) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:16:20 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search Message-ID: <24259A71-24EA-43E7-AEAF-D170562E8471@gmail.com> ?I took the liberty of asking a question Outside this circles former content. Although I have read deeply in Dr Percy?s landscape my Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. Can someone please explain the Theological meaning for Emanation ? The metaphors behind? I wonder this as it is a word That might help along my own Thoughts on ?first causes? Thanks https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 Sent from my iPhone From ehutton at huttonassociates.com Wed Jul 8 17:04:53 2020 From: ehutton at huttonassociates.com (Ernest Hutton) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 17:04:53 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy and O'Connor- Wise Blood Message-ID: <6B9A0978-257F-41F8-85FD-E8A24293707A@huttonassociates.com> The list serve from time to time has alluded to the friendship and mutual admiration of Walker Percy and Flannery O?Connor( Paul Elie has written a very interesting book, The Life You Save May Be Your Own, on the interrelationship of four Catholic writers? Percy and O'Connor plus Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton). Readers may be interested in the attached film column I wrote for the Independent/ Dan?s Media (on the East End of Long Island) on O'Connor?s Wise Blood and the John Huston film made from it. Rereading the book and watching Brad Dourif as the obsessed but questioning Hazel Motes, I can?t help but think of Binx Bolling?s less radical, yet oddly parallel, search for meaning. Ernie Hutton Ernest Watson Hutton Jr. FAICP Assoc AIA Hutton Associates Inc/ Planning Interaction Westhampton/ New York ehutton at huttonassociates.com 17 Woodbridge Lane, Quiogue Westhampton Beach NY 11978 917.836.7902 cell/ office -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Wise Blood3.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 24288 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joe.francisco4591 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 20:34:31 2020 From: joe.francisco4591 at gmail.com (Joseph Francisco) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:34:31 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search In-Reply-To: <24259A71-24EA-43E7-AEAF-D170562E8471@gmail.com> References: <24259A71-24EA-43E7-AEAF-D170562E8471@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well this article is quite the rabbit hole: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm But may give a little better sense of Emanation as it may be used in Catholic theology (not a common term, to my knowledge). In Percy, man's search for God is undertaken in the arena of people and things in the world. It's possible to seek Him there because all of created Being emanates from Him. Kind of like how you can tell a little bit about an artist from seeing his art. Anyway. Hope that is helpful. Also, I've been following on here for a while now, but haven't introduced myself. I'm an English teacher living in New Jersey. Discovered Percy in college and 'reverted' to Catholicism shortly thereafter. Cheers, Joe Francisco On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:16 PM Lauren Berdy wrote: > I took the liberty of asking a question > Outside this circles former content. > > Although I have read deeply in > Dr Percy?s landscape my > Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. > > > Can someone please explain the > Theological meaning for > Emanation ? > The metaphors behind? > I wonder this as it is a word > That might help along my own > Thoughts on ?first causes? > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 > > > Sent from my iPhone > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowry.charles at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 20:48:57 2020 From: lowry.charles at gmail.com (Charles Lowry) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:48:57 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search In-Reply-To: <24259A71-24EA-43E7-AEAF-D170562E8471@gmail.com> References: <24259A71-24EA-43E7-AEAF-D170562E8471@gmail.com> Message-ID: The first thing to note is the etymology of *emanation*. It comes from the Latin verb *emanare*, a perfectly good but not widely used word meaning *to flow from, to originate from, to arise from, to spread. *It is an intransitive verb and its stem should not be confused with the more common verb *manere* (to stay or remain). The classic theological explanation is from the *Summa *of St.Thomas, *Pars Prima, Quaestio xlv de modo emanationis rerum a primo principio *(First Part, Question 45, on the manner of the emanation of things from the first principle). There are eight articles in this question. Here is the first, which is important, since it discusses the difference between a particular emanation (an agent produces something from something else) and the universal emanation, in which all being emanates from nothing. This latter emanation we call *creation*, and that actor is God. After declaring that he will consider the action of God's creation, St.Thomas first takes up the question of emanation as a type of creation. After noting some other opinions and objections (that is the standard manner of proceeding in the *Summa*), he offers his own opinion: Respondeo dicendum quod, sicut supra dictum est, non solum oportet considerare emanationem alicuius entis particularis ab aliquo particulari agente, sed etiam emanationem totius entis a causa universali, quae est Deus. Et hanc quidem emanationem designamus nomine creationis. Quod autem procedit secundum emanationem particularem, non praesupponitur emanationi: sicut, si generatur homo, non fuit prius homo, sed homo fit ex non homine, et album ex non albo. Unde, si consideratur emanatio totius entis universalis a primo principio, impossibile est quod aliquod ens praesupponatur huic emenationi. Idem autem est nihil quod nullum ens. Sicut igitur generatio hominis est ex non ente quod est non homo, ita creatio, quae est emanatio totius esse, est ex non ente quod est nihil. In my towering vanity, I shall not subject you to a standard translation but offer my own: I reply that it ought to be said that, as was noted previously, it is important that we consider not only the emanation of some specific thing from some specific actor, but we must also consider the emanation of all being from a universal cause, which is God. And the technical term we give to this type of emanation is *creation*. Something which comes forth from a specific emanation is not to be regarded as more important than the [universal] emanation. Thus if a man is brought forth, it was not previously a man; rather a man is made from "that substance which is not man," or white is made from "that substance which is not white." We learn from this that if the emanation of all being from a first principle is under consideration, it is impossible that any particular being should be thought to be more important than the [universal] emanation. But nothing is the same thing as no being. Thus in the same way that the production of a man is from the *not being* which is *not man*. so creation, which is the emanation of all being, is from that being which is nothing. And I thus prove G. B. Shaw's observation that a scholar is someone who knows more and more about less and less. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:16 PM Lauren Berdy wrote: > I took the liberty of asking a question > Outside this circles former content. > > Although I have read deeply in > Dr Percy?s landscape my > Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. > > > Can someone please explain the > Theological meaning for > Emanation ? > The metaphors behind? > I wonder this as it is a word > That might help along my own > Thoughts on ?first causes? > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 > > > Sent from my iPhone > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 8 20:50:36 2020 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 00:50:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search In-Reply-To: References: <24259A71-24EA-43E7-AEAF-D170562E8471@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1845169561.3763031.1594255836999@mail.yahoo.com> Welcome and have more to say here. This is really to the point and had to be helpful.Janet Cantor On Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 08:34:57 PM EDT, Joseph Francisco wrote: Well this article is quite the rabbit hole:?https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm But may give a little better sense of Emanation as it may be used in Catholic theology (not a common term, to my knowledge).? In Percy, man's search for God is undertaken in the arena of people and things in the world. It's possible to seek Him there because all of created Being emanates from Him. Kind of like how you can tell a little bit about an artist from seeing his art. Anyway. Hope that is helpful. Also, I've been following on here for a while now, but haven't introduced myself. I'm an English teacher living in New Jersey. Discovered Percy in college and 'reverted' to Catholicism shortly thereafter. Cheers,Joe Francisco On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:16 PM Lauren Berdy wrote: I took the liberty of asking a question Outside this circles former content. Although I have read deeply in Dr Percy?s landscape my Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. Can someone please explain the Theological meaning for Emanation ? The metaphors behind? I wonder this as it is a? word That might help along my own Thoughts on ?first causes? ?Thanks https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 Sent from my iPhone ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 09:10:05 2020 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Berdy) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:10:05 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search In-Reply-To: <1845169561.3763031.1594255836999@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1845169561.3763031.1594255836999@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25E7F414-EAE9-4058-89F2-6FD1C520B24F@gmail.com> Thank you all for your kind attention to my inquiry Emanation ? to flow from? (From which all things are derived from the first reality or Principle) ? the first impressions are immortal all? From Thomas Traherne Poem ?Dumbness? I?m interested in rooting about the ground of all things Lauren Sent from my iPad > On Jul 8, 2020, at 8:50 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: > > ? > Welcome and have more to say here. This is really to the point and had to be helpful. > Janet Cantor > > On Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 08:34:57 PM EDT, Joseph Francisco wrote: > > > Well this article is quite the rabbit hole: > https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm > > But may give a little better sense of Emanation as it may be used in Catholic theology (not a common term, to my knowledge). > > In Percy, man's search for God is undertaken in the arena of people and things in the world. It's possible to seek Him there because all of created Being emanates from Him. Kind of like how you can tell a little bit about an artist from seeing his art. > > Anyway. Hope that is helpful. > > Also, I've been following on here for a while now, but haven't introduced myself. I'm an English teacher living in New Jersey. Discovered Percy in college and 'reverted' to Catholicism shortly thereafter. > > Cheers, > Joe Francisco > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:16 PM Lauren Berdy wrote: > I took the liberty of asking a question > Outside this circles former content. > > Although I have read deeply in > Dr Percy?s landscape my > Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. > > > Can someone please explain the > Theological meaning for > Emanation ? > The metaphors behind? > I wonder this as it is a word > That might help along my own > Thoughts on ?first causes? > Thanks > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 > > > Sent from my iPhone > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bonannju at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 12:18:36 2020 From: bonannju at gmail.com (Justin Bonanno) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 12:18:36 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I vaguely recall reading about emanationism as it pertains to Gnosticism at some point. The New Advent article suggested by Joe should answer what the Catholic Church has taught about "emanationism": "The doctrine of creation teaches that all things are distinct from God, but that God is their efficient cause. God does not produce things from His own substance nor from any pre-existing reality, but by an act of His will brings them out of nothing. According to emanationism, on the contrary, the Divine substance is the reality from which all things are derived, not by any voluntary determination, but by a necessity of nature. And God does not produce all things immediately; the lower are more distant, and are separated from Him by necessary intermediaries. (It may be noted, however, that sometimes the word emanation is used in a broader sense including also creation. Thus St. Thomas: "Qu?ritur de modo emanationis rerum a primo principio qui dicitur creatio". Summa, I, Q. xlv, a. 1.)" And: "Philosophically the discussion of emanationism supposes the discussion of the whole problem of the nature of God, especially of His simplicity and infinity. The doctrine of the Catholic Church is contained in the definition of the dogma of the creatio ex nihilo by the Fourth Lateran Council and, especially, the Council of the Vatican. The latter expressly condemns emanationism (I. De Deo rerum omnium creatore, can. iv), and anathematizes those "asserting that finite things, both corporeal and spiritual, or at least spiritual, have "emanated from the Divine substance."" Question: Did you find the term emanationism in Percy? He was against Gnosticism (see p. 25 in Samway's *Thief of Peirce*). I'm wondering about the linkage between Percy and emanationism.... -Justin On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:06 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search > (Lauren Berdy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:10:05 -0400 > From: Lauren Berdy > To: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" , "Percy-L: > Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google > Search > Message-ID: <25E7F414-EAE9-4058-89F2-6FD1C520B24F at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thank you all for your kind attention to my inquiry > > Emanation ? to flow from? > (From which all things are derived from the first reality or > Principle) > > ? the first impressions are immortal all? > From Thomas Traherne Poem > ?Dumbness? > > I?m interested in rooting about the ground of all things > Lauren > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 8:50 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L < > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote: > > > > ? > > Welcome and have more to say here. This is really to the point and had > to be helpful. > > Janet Cantor > > > > On Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 08:34:57 PM EDT, Joseph Francisco < > joe.francisco4591 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Well this article is quite the rabbit hole: > > https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm > > > > But may give a little better sense of Emanation as it may be used in > Catholic theology (not a common term, to my knowledge). > > > > In Percy, man's search for God is undertaken in the arena of people and > things in the world. It's possible to seek Him there because all of created > Being emanates from Him. Kind of like how you can tell a little bit about > an artist from seeing his art. > > > > Anyway. Hope that is helpful. > > > > Also, I've been following on here for a while now, but haven't > introduced myself. I'm an English teacher living in New Jersey. Discovered > Percy in college and 'reverted' to Catholicism shortly thereafter. > > > > Cheers, > > Joe Francisco > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:16 PM Lauren Berdy < > lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com> wrote: > > I took the liberty of asking a question > > Outside this circles former content. > > > > Although I have read deeply in > > Dr Percy?s landscape my > > Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. > > > > > > Can someone please explain the > > Theological meaning for > > Emanation ? > > The metaphors behind? > > I wonder this as it is a word > > That might help along my own > > Thoughts on ?first causes? > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200709/73d42ce7/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 4 > *************************************** > -- Justin Bonanno, ABD Department of Communication & Rhetorical Studies Duquesne University Pittsburgh PA 15282 https://jnbonanno.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 12:51:18 2020 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Berdy) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 12:51:18 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Justin Dr Percy wanted his faith to have A lineage At least this is my own thinking Catholicism as he practiced it Or as he SAW it Was about the fact that ( although Perhaps it?s a story ?) There once arose a man who Invented love Percy is a believer not a doubter Gnosticism is for doubters And emanations arise from The empty ground quantum said there is nothing Compassion arises when you Are in the flow of emanations ?? Merton thought so but couldn?t Get his unknowing flowing Seeing what arises !! Perhaps Dr Percy was looking at Us and our arisingS Like a man sitting on the highest Tree or in the fire looking tower looking down I?m not sure we Creatures that Talk and use signs have gotten Very far? I think a are still in da mud Thank you Lauren Berdy Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 9, 2020, at 12:19 PM, Justin Bonanno wrote: > > ? > I vaguely recall reading about emanationism as it pertains to Gnosticism at some point. The New Advent article suggested by Joe should answer what the Catholic Church has taught about "emanationism": > > "The doctrine of creation teaches that all things are distinct from God, but that God is their efficient cause. God does not produce things from His own substance nor from any pre-existing reality, but by an act of His will brings them out of nothing. According to emanationism, on the contrary, the Divine substance is the reality from which all things are derived, not by any voluntary determination, but by a necessity of nature. And God does not produce all things immediately; the lower are more distant, and are separated from Him by necessary intermediaries. (It may be noted, however, that sometimes the word emanation is used in a broader sense including also creation. Thus St. Thomas: "Qu?ritur de modo emanationis rerum a primo principio qui dicitur creatio". Summa, I, Q. xlv, a. 1.)" > > And: > > "Philosophically the discussion of emanationism supposes the discussion of the whole problem of the nature of God, especially of His simplicity and infinity. The doctrine of the Catholic Church is contained in the definition of the dogma of the creatio ex nihilo by the Fourth Lateran Council and, especially, the Council of the Vatican. The latter expressly condemns emanationism (I. De Deo rerum omnium creatore, can. iv), and anathematizes those "asserting that finite things, both corporeal and spiritual, or at least spiritual, have "emanated from the Divine substance."" > > Question: Did you find the term emanationism in Percy? He was against Gnosticism (see p. 25 in Samway's Thief of Peirce). I'm wondering about the linkage between Percy and emanationism.... > > -Justin > >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:06 PM wrote: >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google Search >> (Lauren Berdy) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:10:05 -0400 >> From: Lauren Berdy >> To: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" , "Percy-L: >> Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] What does emanation mean in the Bible? - Google >> Search >> Message-ID: <25E7F414-EAE9-4058-89F2-6FD1C520B24F at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Thank you all for your kind attention to my inquiry >> >> Emanation ? to flow from? >> (From which all things are derived from the first reality or >> Principle) >> >> ? the first impressions are immortal all? >> From Thomas Traherne Poem >> ?Dumbness? >> >> I?m interested in rooting about the ground of all things >> Lauren >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Jul 8, 2020, at 8:50 PM, janetcantor37--- via Percy-L wrote: >> > >> > ? >> > Welcome and have more to say here. This is really to the point and had to be helpful. >> > Janet Cantor >> > >> > On Wednesday, July 8, 2020, 08:34:57 PM EDT, Joseph Francisco wrote: >> > >> > >> > Well this article is quite the rabbit hole: >> > https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm >> > >> > But may give a little better sense of Emanation as it may be used in Catholic theology (not a common term, to my knowledge). >> > >> > In Percy, man's search for God is undertaken in the arena of people and things in the world. It's possible to seek Him there because all of created Being emanates from Him. Kind of like how you can tell a little bit about an artist from seeing his art. >> > >> > Anyway. Hope that is helpful. >> > >> > Also, I've been following on here for a while now, but haven't introduced myself. I'm an English teacher living in New Jersey. Discovered Percy in college and 'reverted' to Catholicism shortly thereafter. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Joe Francisco >> > >> > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 4:16 PM Lauren Berdy wrote: >> > I took the liberty of asking a question >> > Outside this circles former content. >> > >> > Although I have read deeply in >> > Dr Percy?s landscape my >> > Portal wasn?t thru Catholicism. >> > >> > >> > Can someone please explain the >> > Theological meaning for >> > Emanation ? >> > The metaphors behind? >> > I wonder this as it is a word >> > That might help along my own >> > Thoughts on ?first causes? >> > Thanks >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > https://www.google.com/search?q=What+does+emanation+mean+in+the+Bible%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwje3Ymnj_zmAhWGxVkKHdhnB1kQzmd6BAgMEBc&biw=320&bih=529&dpr=2 >> > >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > ---------------------------------- >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > >> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> > >> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > ---------------------------------- >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > >> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> > >> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> > >> > ---------------------------------- >> > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> > >> > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> > >> > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> > >> > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 4 >> *************************************** > > > -- > Justin Bonanno, ABD > Department of Communication & Rhetorical Studies > Duquesne University > Pittsburgh PA 15282 > https://jnbonanno.com > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 09:20:29 2020 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:20:29 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Perhaps Percival wants to tell Lance is that he too died in the explosion? That what they're talking about is two versions of heaven, and while it's "not both" objectively, it's more a matter of picking your own poison for each of them. Thanks, Tom On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:38 PM Michael Larson wrote: > Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and > for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend > their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. > > In *Lancelot*, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of > the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's > way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: > a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church > (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a > return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). > > The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot > and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. > They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third > way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is > asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is > there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has > been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." > > Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new > beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. > > Mike Larson > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 16:48:47 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 15:48:47 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. Best, Mike On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:07 AM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot (Thomas Gollier) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:20:29 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot > Message-ID: > Va_4StF8XVmM+bw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike, > > Perhaps Percival wants to tell Lance is that he too died in the explosion? > That what they're talking > about is two versions of heaven, and while it's "not both" objectively, > it's more a matter of picking > your own poison for each of them. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:38 PM Michael Larson > wrote: > > > Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) > and > > for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend > > their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. > > > > In *Lancelot*, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of > > the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's > > way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron > fist: > > a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church > > (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the > penitent: a > > return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). > > > > The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but > Lancelot > > and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this > way. > > They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the > third > > way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is > > asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, > "Is > > there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has > > been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." > > > > Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new > > beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. > > > > Mike Larson > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200716/acfe2902/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > *************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 17:11:46 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:11:46 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rhonda, That is an interesting speculation. Of course, the true priest always presents the Immaculate Christ, right, specifically in the mass and the sacraments? But then in this case, we can't really say that Lance's confession is a sacramental one. In fact, it is clearly not. So the role of Percival is indeed reduced more to friend than priest, in which case the emphasis on fellow sinner is more apt. On the other hand, Percy paints the dramatic situation to suggest a sacramental setting, the confined cell, the silence of the priest throughout all the long confession, the fact that the listener IS a priest, etc.. So he is playing with both ideas. The silence of Percival speaks volumes, though. There is in it both a pregnant judgment and a way to bear it, I suspect. But that is in the pages we do not see ... Mike On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 11:04 AM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot (Michael Larson) > 2. Re: Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot (RHONDA MCDONNELL) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:37:13 -0500 > From: Michael Larson > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot > Message-ID: > < > CAMmLp8iMYv2ks-wmUo9y6RJEDu_RffaEvsYYYfm1sjM5Wp+GWQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and > for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend > their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. > > In *Lancelot*, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of > the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's > way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: > a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church > (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a > return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). > > The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot > and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. > They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third > way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is > asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is > there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has > been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." > > Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new > beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. > > Mike Larson > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200701/b1713152/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 22:56:25 +0000 > From: RHONDA MCDONNELL > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot > Message-ID: > < > DM6PR14MB26173BA65586259A43104B7AE46C0 at DM6PR14MB2617.namprd14.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thanks for the perspective, Michael. Wondering what Father John is going > to say has taken up some mental energy on my end, as well. I?ve always > imagined that he would note Lance?s hypocrisy and, as a stand in for God, > present the ?maculate Christ? as Tom Moore sees in Love in the Ruins. In > other words, Father John would speak to Lancelot not as a judge or even a > priest, but as a fellow sinner who is, even so, a believer. > > Cheers, > > Rhonda McDonnell > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 1, 2020, at 6:38 PM, Michael Larson wrote: > > ? > Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and > for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend > their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. > > In Lancelot, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of the > modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's way > (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: a > new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church (i.e. > acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a > return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). > > The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot > and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. > They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third > way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is > asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is > there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has > been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." > > Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new > beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. > > Mike Larson > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200701/f414ce88/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 1 > *************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kareyperkins at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 17:46:23 2020 From: kareyperkins at gmail.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 17:46:23 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73FB9150-BE1D-4615-ACAA-88D57B2B0087@gmail.com> Doesn?t Tom mean LANCELOT is the one that died in the explosion? I find that idea intriguing, too, and quite viable. Lancelot is now in purgatory, working through his sins with Percival, the priest/confessor/angel/friend? Or, working them out by himself, his own monologue, until he comes to the end of his ?confession? and is now able to ?hear? the Word. Echoes of ?The Sixth Sense.? KP Sent from my iPad On Jul 16, 2020, at 4:50 PM, Michael Larson wrote: ? Tom, Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. Best, Mike > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:07 AM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot (Thomas Gollier) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:20:29 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike, > > Perhaps Percival wants to tell Lance is that he too died in the explosion? > That what they're talking > about is two versions of heaven, and while it's "not both" objectively, > it's more a matter of picking > your own poison for each of them. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:38 PM Michael Larson wrote: > > > Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and > > for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend > > their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. > > > > In *Lancelot*, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of > > the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's > > way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: > > a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church > > (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a > > return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). > > > > The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot > > and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. > > They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third > > way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is > > asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is > > there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has > > been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." > > > > Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new > > beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. > > > > Mike Larson > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > *************************************** ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kareyperkins at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 18:12:10 2020 From: kareyperkins at gmail.com (Karey Perkins) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 18:12:10 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <73FB9150-BE1D-4615-ACAA-88D57B2B0087@gmail.com> References: <73FB9150-BE1D-4615-ACAA-88D57B2B0087@gmail.com> Message-ID: The novel begins with an epigram, a quote from Dante?s Purgatorio: ?He sank so low that all means for his salvation were gone, except showing him the lost people. For this I visited the region of the dead.? ... and Lancelot is living next to Lafayette Cemetary.... ?a patch of sky, a corner of Lafayette Cemetary, a slice of leve, and a short stretch of Annunciation Street.? It ends, ?Very well. I?ve finished. Is there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?? Leaving purgatory for heaven? For Percy, the answer is in communication and relationship and Lance is now ready to forge authentic relationships. The word Percival gives Lance is a YES. Hmmm, Tom, I think you are on to something. KP Sent from my iPad On Jul 16, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Karey Perkins wrote: ?Doesn?t Tom mean LANCELOT is the one that died in the explosion? I find that idea intriguing, too, and quite viable. Lancelot is now in purgatory, working through his sins with Percival, the priest/confessor/angel/friend? Or, working them out by himself, his own monologue, until he comes to the end of his ?confession? and is now able to ?hear? the Word. Echoes of ?The Sixth Sense.? KP Sent from my iPad On Jul 16, 2020, at 4:50 PM, Michael Larson wrote: ? Tom, Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. Best, Mike On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:07 AM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot (Thomas Gollier) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 06:20:29 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Debt Forgiveness and Lancelot > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike, > > Perhaps Percival wants to tell Lance is that he too died in the explosion? > That what they're talking > about is two versions of heaven, and while it's "not both" objectively, > it's more a matter of picking > your own poison for each of them. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 3:38 PM Michael Larson wrote: > > > Debt forgiveness is for the ignorant (those who know not what they do) and > > for the repentant, those who are sorry for their wrongs and aim to amend > > their lives. This latter implies a belief in an objective moral order. > > > > In *Lancelot*, three ways are proposed (p. 255-57): 1) Sodom: the way of > > the modern world (i.e. rejection of an objective moral order), 2) Lance's > > way (i.e. a return to an objective moral order, enforced with an iron fist: > > a new version of the Old Law), 3) Percival's way: the way of the Church > > (i.e. acceptance of an objective moral order, but mercy for the penitent: a > > return to the New Law, a.k.a. Christendom). > > > > The world at present is in the final throes of the first way, but Lancelot > > and Percival agree that the future of humanity cannot continue in this way. > > They agree beyond any doubt that it will be either the second or the third > > way, but not both. And we know which of the two Percy, the author, is > > asserting by the final words of the novel, when Lancelot asks Percival, "Is > > there anything you wish to tell me before I leave?" and Percival, who has > > been the silent hearer of Lance's 255-page confession, responds, "Yes." > > > > Probably he will tell Lance that without sorrow for his sins, the new > > beginning he envisions is as doomed as the modern world. > > > > Mike Larson > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > *************************************** ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 12:13:03 2020 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:13:03 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the explosion along with the others in the house. So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end. That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. Thanks, Tom On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson wrote: > Tom, > > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from > beyond the grave? > > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. > > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. > > Best, > Mike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 13:32:53 2020 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Berdy) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:32:53 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf@mx.google.com> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.? The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he himself struggled with his own subjective self. The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between the thought and the mind. Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is that then Compassion? Thank you Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Thomas Gollier Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 Mike, Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the explosion along with the others in the house. So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end. That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. Thanks, Tom On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson wrote: Tom, Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. Best, Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Fri Jul 17 14:04:28 2020 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf@mx.google.com> References: , <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724@iupui.edu> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he wasn't repentant. It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real protagonist. If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) Just my two cents. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L on behalf of Lauren Berdy Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.? The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he himself struggled with his own subjective self. The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between the thought and the mind. Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is that then Compassion? Thank you Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Thomas Gollier Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 Mike, Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the explosion along with the others in the house. So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end. That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. Thanks, Tom On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > wrote: Tom, Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. Best, Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 16:39:10 2020 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Berdy) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:39:10 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <1595009067780.10724@iupui.edu> References: <1595009067780.10724@iupui.edu> Message-ID: <7B9FD909-9111-4797-BF5C-C480771F1E99@gmail.com> One more addition I feel the pull to write only because I come to the good Dr for his diagnostics, On the self ( you see I think everything he wrote was mind to mind, a contemplation If you will. On that note l am adding this We humans are more interested in the results than in the ways we use our minds. But this Distinction between the means we use and their results is arbitrary superficial and False It is the way in which we use our minds that is all important not the result fir the results Are in the means. As we feel so we think and as we think so we act and build the world in which we live. Also I will add this Remember Dr Percy warned us about treating humans as things........ He showed we ought to be aware of other humans affectionately And with deference. Thank you Sent from my iPad > On Jul 17, 2020, at 2:05 PM, Beck, David A wrote: > > ? > I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he wasn't repentant. > > > > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real protagonist. > > > > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) > > > > Just my two cents. > > > > -David > > > > David Beck > Senior Lecturer > English Department > Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > 317-278-2550 > From: Percy-L on behalf of Lauren Berdy > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.? > > > > > The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he himself struggled with his own subjective self. > > > > The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? > > The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between the thought and the mind. > > > > Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is that then Compassion? > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: Thomas Gollier > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > > > Mike, > > Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God > ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this > other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another > > seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival > > was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the > explosion along with the others in the house. > > So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they > have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the > limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike > > how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no > > dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end. > > That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I > think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens > put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened > > up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. > > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson wrote: > > Tom, > > > > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? > > > > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. > > > > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. > > > > Best, > > Mike > > > > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 10:17:39 2020 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 07:17:39 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <1595009067780.10724@iupui.edu> References: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf@mx.google.com> <1595009067780.10724@iupui.edu> Message-ID: David, I have to say it was the possibility of "redemption" that I found so amazing in this novel. Here is Lance, a man who, if I'm reading this right, murdered his wife and her lover, killed a couple of others in the process, essentially committed suicide himself, and who at the end of his long recounting (confession?) is being released from the hospital/prison (purgatory?) and is off to make a new life (admitted to heaven?). Sure gives the rest of sinners some hope. But then, what the hell, maybe I'm reading too much into it? Thanks, Tom On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:05 AM Beck, David A wrote: > I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't > see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to > bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he > wasn't repentant. > > > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At > first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After > hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he > returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in > his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real > protagonist. > > > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) > > > Just my two cents. > > > -David > > > David Beck > Senior Lecturer > English Department > Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > 317-278-2550 > ------------------------------ > *From:* Percy-L on > behalf of Lauren Berdy > *Sent:* Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM > *To:* Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > *Subject:* [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when > clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's > confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end.? > > > > The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he > himself struggled with his own subjective self. > > > > The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? > > The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst > the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete > themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to > silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think > Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised > and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between > the thought and the mind. > > > > Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is > that then Compassion? > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Thomas Gollier > *Sent: *Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM > *To: *Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > > *Subject: *Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > > > Mike, > > Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all > along that he was talking to God > ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize > until pretty far along that this > other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a > conversation with another > > seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, > but either way, God or Percival > > was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring > to Lance dying in the > explosion along with the others in the house. > > So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no > longer living, and what they > have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If > I can go further out on the > limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we > are with ourselves. Unlike > > how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things > objectively, there can be no > > dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that > subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's > confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end. > > That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the > first time, but in my defense, I > think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic > thought" as Wallace Stevens > put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying > to describe the vista Percy opened > > up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. > > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > wrote: > > Tom, > > > > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from > beyond the grave? > > > > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. > > > > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. > > > > Best, > > Mike > > > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhforest at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 13:26:39 2020 From: jhforest at gmail.com (Jim Forest) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 19:26:39 +0200 Subject: [percy-l] =?utf-8?b?4oCYRmxhbm5lcnnigJkgcHJvZmlsZXMgb25lIG9mIGxp?= =?utf-8?q?terature=E2=80=99s_miracles?= Message-ID: https://www.americamagazine.org/arts-culture/2020/07/17/flannery-profiles-one-literatures-miracles *?Flannery? profiles one of literature?s miracles* By John Anderson / America magazine / July 17, 2020 In his introduction to The Complete Stories of Flannery O?Connor (1971), the editor and publisher Robert Giroux recalls the long-distance mutual-admiration society between O?Connor and his old friend and writer Thomas Merton, who found in O?Connor?s southern gothic, freak-populated, frequently poker-faced prose the presence of God, and the story of Man. ?When Flannery died,? Giroux wrote, ?Merton was not exaggerating his estimate of her worth when he said he would not compare her with such good writers as Hemingway, Porter and Sartre but rather with ?someone like Sophocles?. I write her name with honor, for all the truth and all the craft with which she shows man?s fall and his dishonor.?? O?Connor is as well-remembered as a Catholic writer as a Southern one, and both aspects of her literary personality are explored in ?Flannery,? a new documentary written, produced and directed by Elizabeth Coffman and Mark Bosco, S.J. It is certainly a treat for fans of O?Connor, who died of lupus at the age of 39 in 1964. Since then, her work has suffered dismissal and banishment by the overly woke. When even the title of one of your stories (?The Artificial Nigger?) is enough to start a protest march, you become problematic, never mind that the sentiment inside those stories is as cognizant of Southern sin as Faulkner?s, and its treatment as tart as Twain?s. Academia is the ventilator of literature. Without it, it gasps. But O?Connor has never been easy, and she was not easy on her readers or herself, something the film acknowledges. In the preface to the second edition of her novel Wise Blood, she wrote that the book was ?a comic novel about a Christian malgr? lui? (?despite himself?), and said it had been written by ?an author congenitally innocent of theory, but one with certain preoccupations. That belief in Christ is to some a matter of life and death has been a stumbling block for readers who would prefer to think it a matter of no great consequence. It was of great consequence to Flannery O?Connor, a critical element in her writing and is an essential ingredient in this film. Many documentaries don?t need to be?meaning, they don?t need to be documentaries. Often, their DNA is journalistic; and they would more naturally exist as magazine articles or even as books. The pictures are ornamentation and/or an excuse to make an issue into a film and get it in front of more people. But other stories are broadened, deepened and elevated by the evocation of time, place and atmosphere that only archival photos and personal artifacts can provide. ?Flannery? is one of them?Coffman and Bosco show from the outset that they know how to use a room, or a hat, or any offhand detail to summon up an entire psychology. Much like a Flannery O?Connor short story. That said, it would put a prospective ?Flannery? audience at an advantage to have some knowledge of O?Connor?s work. This includes the two novels, the 1952 Wise Blood (made into a film by John Huston) and The Violent Bear It Away (1960). But more important. the 32 short stories, which bear titles that might be more familiar than the tales themselves??A Good Man Is Hard to Find,? ?Everything Rises Must Converge? and ?The Life You Save Might Be Your Own? among them. ?The Displaced Person,? though written in 1955, should be required reading for all Americans right now. It not only lacerates a persistent American know-nothing, anti-immigrant, racist worldview, but also tracks it to its source, which is ignorance. ?Flannery? is an apologia for O?Connor but, like any good defense, it takes the position that she doesn?t need one. She was a creature, in many ways, of her time and place, Milledgeville, Ga., and evidence of that runs through her letters and quoted remarks (though not, I would say, her work, which records, without endorsing, Southern racism). The writer famously declined to meet James Baldwin when the latter was visiting Georgia in 1959, but Hilton Als, the New Yorker writer and a specialist on culture and race, offers a valid explanation: Such a meeting would have been sensational, a political and racial event that would ruin her ability to exist as she had been doing, not only as an observer of her small, prismatic community but as a member of it. She did not say she could never meet Baldwin. She just couldn?t do it in Georgia. Narrated by Mary Steenburgen, ?Flannery? features interviews with Als, the poet-essayist Mary Karr, Alice Walker, Tommy Lee Jones, Conan O?Brien and, perhaps most enlightening, the now-late Sally Fitzgerald (the editor and widow of another close O?Connor friend, the poet and translator Robert Fitzgerald). The documentary places its subject, partly by describing her spiritual practices, prayer book and worldview, among the great Catholic writers, a list that would range from Merton to J. R. R. Tolkien, from Graham Greene to J. F. Powers to Muriel Spark. Where are the Catholic writers now? And is a Flannery O?Connor possible now? This is not something ?Flannery? gets into; one wishes it had. In an article in 2011 for the art website The Millions, the cultural critic Robert Fay posited that it was changes in the Mass that changed the landscape of Catholic writing, removing the mystery and ritual that had inspired even such unlikely examples as James Joyce. It would have led ?Flannery? down a path of no return, of course, and contradicted what seems the point of the film, which is that O?Connor was, for all her influences and intentions and hardships and isolation, one of literature?s miracles. ?Flannery? is being shown on demand by Film Forum. >> John Anderson is a television critic for The Wall Street Journal and a contributor to The New York Times. * * * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Sun Jul 19 15:46:34 2020 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 19:46:34 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf@mx.google.com> <1595009067780.10724@iupui.edu>, Message-ID: <1595187994595.18794@iupui.edu> Tom, I don't think you are reading too much into it. That great ending ("Yes!") leaves it pretty open (and frustrates my students who want complete closure). -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L on behalf of Thomas Gollier Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2020 10:17 AM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 David, I have to say it was the possibility of "redemption" that I found so amazing in this novel. Here is Lance, a man who, if I'm reading this right, murdered his wife and her lover, killed a couple of others in the process, essentially committed suicide himself, and who at the end of his long recounting (confession?) is being released from the hospital/prison (purgatory?) and is off to make a new life (admitted to heaven?). Sure gives the rest of sinners some hope. But then, what the hell, maybe I'm reading too much into it? Thanks, Tom On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:05 AM Beck, David A > wrote: I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he wasn't repentant. It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real protagonist. If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) Just my two cents. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L > on behalf of Lauren Berdy > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end.? The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he himself struggled with his own subjective self. The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between the thought and the mind. Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is that then Compassion? Thank you Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Thomas Gollier Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 Mike, Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all along that he was talking to God ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize until pretty far along that this other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a conversation with another seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, but either way, God or Percival was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring to Lance dying in the explosion along with the others in the house. So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no longer living, and what they have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If I can go further out on the limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we are with ourselves. Unlike how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things objectively, there can be no dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can be one thing for Lance and another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a "poison" to the social and objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession all along seems to be the story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his redemption at the end. That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the first time, but in my defense, I think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying to describe the vista Percy opened up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. Thanks, Tom On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > wrote: Tom, Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from beyond the grave? I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. Best, Mike ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 13:08:34 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 12:08:34 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory perceptions of it. You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in question. But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new beginning of sorts but not a happy one. In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to reach in order to find life. Mike On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Thomas Gollier) > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Lauren Berdy) > 3. Re: [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > (Beck, David A) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:13:03 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > Message-ID: > g at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike, > > Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all > along that he was talking to God > ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize > until pretty far along that this > other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a > conversation with another > seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, > but either way, God or Percival > was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring > to Lance dying in the > explosion along with the others in the house. > > So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no > longer living, and what they > have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If > I can go further out on the > limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we > are with ourselves. Unlike > how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things > objectively, there can be no > dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that > subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's confession > all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end. > > That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the > first time, but in my defense, I > think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic > thought" as Wallace Stevens > put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying > to describe the vista Percy opened > up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. > > Thanks, > Tom > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the > > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that > of > > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from > > beyond the grave? > > > > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two > > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in > both > > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, > > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the > > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. > > > > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. > > > > Best, > > Mike > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/7e0273f9/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:32:53 -0400 > From: Lauren Berdy > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > Message-ID: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's > confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end.? > > > The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he > himself struggled with his own subjective self. > > The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? > The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst > the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete > themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to > silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think > Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised > and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between > the thought and the mind. > > Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is > that then Compassion? > > Thank you > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Thomas Gollier > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > Mike, > > Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all > along that he was talking to God > ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize > until pretty far along that this > other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a > conversation with another > seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, > but either way, God or Percival > was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring > to Lance dying in the > explosion along with the others in the house. > > So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no > longer living, and what they > have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If > I can go further out on the > limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we > are with ourselves. Unlike > how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things > objectively, there can be no > dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that > subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's > confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end. > > That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the > first time, but in my defense, I > think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic > thought" as Wallace Stevens > put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying > to describe the vista Percy opened > up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. > > Thanks, > Tom > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > wrote: > Tom, > > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from > beyond the grave? > > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. > > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. > > Best, > Mike > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/5678d0a0/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > From: "Beck, David A" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue > 6 > Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't > see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to > bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he > wasn't repentant. > > > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At > first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After > hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he > returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in > his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real > protagonist. > > > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) > > > Just my two cents. > > > -David > > > David Beck > Senior Lecturer > English Department > Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > 317-278-2550 > ________________________________ > From: Percy-L on > behalf of Lauren Berdy > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion > Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when > clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. > > . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's > confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end.? > > > The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he > himself struggled with his own subjective self. > > The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the unknowing? > The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst > the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete > themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to > silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think > Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised > and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between > the thought and the mind. > > Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is > that then Compassion? > > Thank you > > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > From: Thomas Gollier > Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM > To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 > > Mike, > > Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all > along that he was talking to God > ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize > until pretty far along that this > other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a > conversation with another > seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, > but either way, God or Percival > was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring > to Lance dying in the > explosion along with the others in the house. > > So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no > longer living, and what they > have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If > I can go further out on the > limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we > are with ourselves. Unlike > how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things > objectively, there can be no > dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that > subjective self will evaporate. If > that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can > be one thing for Lance and > another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a > "poison" to the social and > objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's > confession all along seems to be the > story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his > redemption at the end. > > That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the > first time, but in my defense, I > think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic > thought" as Wallace Stevens > put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying > to describe the vista Percy opened > up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. > > Thanks, > Tom > > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > wrote: > Tom, > > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from > beyond the grave? > > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. > > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. > > Best, > Mike > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/f8e0e4ed/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > *************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 16:11:47 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 15:11:47 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, Something else I meant to say but forgot before I clicked SEND: I've really appreciated thinking about Lancelot from this perspective. Very interesting exercise. So thanks for that! ML On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 12:08 PM Michael Larson wrote: > Tom, > > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory > perceptions of it. > > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in > question. > > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to > reach in order to find life. > > Mike > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 1:06 PM wrote: > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Thomas Gollier) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 (Lauren Berdy) >> 3. Re: [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 >> (Beck, David A) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 09:13:03 -0700 >> From: Thomas Gollier >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 >> Message-ID: >> > g at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Mike, >> >> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all >> along that he was talking to God >> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize >> until pretty far along that this >> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a >> conversation with another >> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, >> but either way, God or Percival >> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was referring >> to Lance dying in the >> explosion along with the others in the house. >> >> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no >> longer living, and what they >> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. If >> I can go further out on the >> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we >> are with ourselves. Unlike >> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things >> objectively, there can be no >> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that >> subjective self will evaporate. If >> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can >> be one thing for Lance and >> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a >> "poison" to the social and >> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's >> confession >> all along seems to be the >> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his >> redemption at the end. >> >> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the >> first time, but in my defense, I >> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves "poetic >> thought" as Wallace Stevens >> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying >> to describe the vista Percy opened >> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson >> wrote: >> >> > Tom, >> > >> > Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the >> > explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that >> of >> > a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from >> > beyond the grave? >> > >> > I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two >> > different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in >> both >> > ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be >> both, >> > objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the >> > reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. >> > >> > But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. >> > >> > Best, >> > Mike >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/7e0273f9/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:32:53 -0400 >> From: Lauren Berdy >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 >> Message-ID: <5f11e0c5.1c69fb81.f2a7b.43bf at mx.google.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If >> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can >> be one thing for Lance and >> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a >> "poison" to the social and >> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's >> confession all along seems to be the >> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his >> redemption at the end.? >> >> >> The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he >> himself struggled with his own subjective self. >> >> The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the >> unknowing? >> The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst >> the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete >> themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to >> silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think >> Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised >> and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between >> the thought and the mind. >> >> Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is >> that then Compassion? >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: Thomas Gollier >> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 >> >> Mike, >> >> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all >> along that he was talking to God >> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize >> until pretty far along that this >> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a >> conversation with another >> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, >> but either way, God or Percival >> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was >> referring to Lance dying in the >> explosion along with the others in the house. >> >> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no >> longer living, and what they >> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. >> If I can go further out on the >> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we >> are with ourselves. Unlike >> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things >> objectively, there can be no >> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that >> subjective self will evaporate. If >> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can >> be one thing for Lance and >> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a >> "poison" to the social and >> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's >> confession all along seems to be the >> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his >> redemption at the end. >> >> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the >> first time, but in my defense, I >> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves >> "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens >> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying >> to describe the vista Percy opened >> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson >> wrote: >> Tom, >> >> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the >> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of >> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from >> beyond the grave? >> >> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two >> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both >> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, >> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the >> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. >> >> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. >> >> Best, >> Mike >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/5678d0a0/attachment-0001.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 >> From: "Beck, David A" >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue >> 6 >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he >> wasn't repentant. >> >> >> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real >> protagonist. >> >> >> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) >> >> >> Just my two cents. >> >> >> -David >> >> >> David Beck >> Senior Lecturer >> English Department >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> 317-278-2550 >> ________________________________ >> From: Percy-L on >> behalf of Lauren Berdy >> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 1:32 PM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion >> Subject: [External] Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 >> >> This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when >> clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. >> >> . ?If there is, that subjective self will evaporate. If >> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can >> be one thing for Lance and >> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a >> "poison" to the social and >> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's >> confession all along seems to be the >> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his >> redemption at the end.? >> >> >> The reason this human was so captivated by reading Dr Percy was how he >> himself struggled with his own subjective self. >> >> The communion tween Percival and Lance was a way to transmit the >> unknowing? >> The interval between two thoughts is not a blank but a silence. Whilst >> the Former is a sign of inadequacy, the latter enables thoughts to complete >> themselves so that they are not crowded. ( think how many times DP went to >> silently commune with other men(?the interval is used in art???think >> Chinese painting?to encourage the onlooker to look at the picture poised >> and silent. The space in the painting corresponds to the interval between >> the thought and the mind. >> >> Perhaps reality cannot be communicated but, it can somehow be known? Is >> that then Compassion? >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for >> Windows 10 >> >> From: Thomas Gollier >> Sent: Friday, July 17, 2020 12:13 PM >> To: Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 6 >> >> Mike, >> >> Sorry for the ambiguity in what I wrote. In reading Lancelot I felt all >> along that he was talking to God >> ? primarily because he wasn't getting any answers ? and I didn't realize >> until pretty far along that this >> other character was Percival. It was not a conversation with God but a >> conversation with another >> seeker of the Holy Grail. This was even better, more Walker Percy to me, >> but either way, God or Percival >> was already dead or beyond life, and when I wrote "he too" I was >> referring to Lance dying in the >> explosion along with the others in the house. >> >> So when Percival says "yes," he still has to tell Lance that he too is no >> longer living, and what they >> have been discussing all along has been what "heaven" is, or should be. >> If I can go further out on the >> limb here, I'd posit that "heaven" (as well as "hell") is how and what we >> are with ourselves. Unlike >> how we maintain ourselves with others intersubjectively and with things >> objectively, there can be no >> dishonesty or pretense about who we are with ourselves. If there is, that >> subjective self will evaporate. If >> that is what heaven or hell is, what we are with ourselves, then that can >> be one thing for Lance and >> another for Percival, and while we are living, that subjective self is a >> "poison" to the social and >> objective selves of being alive among others and things. Lance's >> confession all along seems to be the >> story of that poisonous influence in his life and how it became his >> redemption at the end. >> >> That view of "heaven" is probably no less ambiguous than what I wrote the >> first time, but in my defense, I >> think it's what makes art art ("poetic writing" that also involves >> "poetic thought" as Wallace Stevens >> put it). Anyway, I'm not trying to substantiate all this; I'm just trying >> to describe the vista Percy opened >> up in my own imagination. I'd certainly be interested in your take on it. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:49 PM Michael Larson > > wrote: >> Tom, >> >> Thanks for the note. I find the idea that Percival has died in the >> explosion to be intriguing. Would his final visit to Lance then be that of >> a ghost? Are you suggesting that what he has to tell Lance comes from >> beyond the grave? >> >> I'm not following the end of your thought, though. They might have two >> different ideas of heaven, but I don't see how there can be poison in both >> ideas, especially if we allow, as the two men do, that it cannot be both, >> objectively. And further, though they might both "pick" an idea, the >> reality remains indifferent to their choices. It just is what it is. >> >> But do steer me differently if I have not understood your meaning. >> >> Best, >> Mike >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200717/f8e0e4ed/attachment.html >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 >> *************************************** >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steve.petrica at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 20:35:58 2020 From: steve.petrica at gmail.com (Steve Petrica) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life Message-ID: Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents *The Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 21:45:55 2020 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike and David, Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we accept Percy's Catholicism." For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French existentialism, his Catholicism has been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his calling card with many of his readers, it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an objective moral order," that you used in your first message opening this topic. A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It can be shared intersubjectively, take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over such long periods of time that there is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or semantically as "objective." And, in fact, Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by aggressively proselytizing itself around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order remains subjective phenomenon regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order can only gain intersubjectivity by being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with whatever personal quirks they may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they implement it in their own interactions with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the end of the novel. He is going to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own interactions with others. He hopes, even assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change anything about what he intends to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective interactions with others is what is needed to get released and to find absolution. And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't know how many pages of Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar resolution and absolution in the course of the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral order into action on a local level. I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local priest could be. Someone knowing everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you were lost. You could lay out what was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and the priest could give you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" Percival would be making his moral order existentially objective as well. And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being released too. In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just those to priests and psychiatrists, but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as that. They all demand contrition and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different standards as to what produces or qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role in our lives than I thought before reading this novel. Thanks, Tom On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson wrote: > Tom, > > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory > perceptions of it. > > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in > question. > > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to > reach in order to find life. > > Mike > > >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 >> From: "Beck, David A" >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue >> 6 >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he >> wasn't repentant. >> > > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real >> protagonist. >> > > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) >> > > Just my two cents. >> >> -David >> >> David Beck >> Senior Lecturer >> English Department >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> 317-278-2550 >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 22 21:48:07 2020 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490@mail.yahoo.com> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And I love his humor. The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at heart.? I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly described the novel. Thank you for this. Janet Cantor On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica wrote: Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Thu Jul 23 11:39:24 2020 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:39:24 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ? if we accept Percy's Catholicism." I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) > 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 > From: Steve Petrica > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > Message-ID: > wmg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series > on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina > philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > presents *The > Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to > relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/5ef16698/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > Message-ID: > < > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike and David, > > Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we > accept Percy's Catholicism." > For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French > existentialism, his Catholicism has > been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his > calling card with many of his readers, > it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read > 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. > Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an > objective moral order," that you used in > your first message opening this topic. > > A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It > can be shared intersubjectively, > take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over > such long periods of time that there > is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or > semantically as "objective." And, in fact, > Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by > aggressively proselytizing itself > around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order > remains subjective phenomenon > regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order > can only gain intersubjectivity by > being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. > > A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with > whatever personal quirks they > may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they > implement it in their own interactions > with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the > end of the novel. He is going > to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own > interactions with others. He hopes, even > assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change > anything about what he intends > to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective > interactions with others is what is > needed to get released and to find absolution. > > And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't > know how many pages of > Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the > "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar > resolution and absolution in the course of > the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral > order into action on a local level. > I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local > priest could be. Someone knowing > everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you > were lost. You could lay out what > was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and > the priest could give > you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" > Percival would be making his moral order > existentially objective as well. > > And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being > released too. > > In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just > those to priests and psychiatrists, > but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as > that. They all demand contrition > and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different > standards as to what produces or > qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role > in our lives than I thought before > reading this novel. > > Thanks, > Tom > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson > wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People > > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude > it > > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's > anticipatory > > perceptions of it. > > > > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously > > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then > > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions > have > > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective > notion--one > > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were > > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be > > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the > > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in > > question. > > > > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God > > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. > But > > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has > > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. > > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's > > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > > > > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. > > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now > > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, > > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, > the > > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's > > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long > > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. > > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > > > > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that > > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of > Percival > > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel > > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. > > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in > the > > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, > > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, > > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. > > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, > > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > > > > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we > can > > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring > > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's > end, > > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to > > reach in order to find life. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > >> From: "Beck, David A" > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue > >> 6 > >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >> > >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't > >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to > >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he > >> wasn't repentant. > >> > > > > > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At > >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After > >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then > he > >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in > >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the > real > >> protagonist. > >> > > > > > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :- > > ) > >> > > > > > Just my two cents. > >> > >> -David > >> > >> David Beck > >> Senior Lecturer > >> English Department > >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 > >> 317-278-2550 > >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/c5c837bf/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) > From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. > Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. > I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am > not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And > I love his humor. > The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? > So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at > heart.? > I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly > described the novel. > Thank you for this. > Janet Cantor > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica < > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote: > > Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/f941ff4a/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 12:16:38 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:16:38 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, Thanks for your comments. Yes, if we are talking about Percy's vision in *Lancelot, *then we cannot ignore his Catholicism as a framework for the "reality" the novel exposes. If, on the other hand, we are talking about readers making their own meaning, then his Catholicism and even its implications for the characters may be safely ignored. But this brings us back to that same issue of objectivity. Readers are free, of course, to make whatever subjective meaning they want to make of any piece of literature. But as soon as we admit this freedom, there arises, once we begin to see the interpretations rolling in, a kind of hierarchy of subjectivity. That is to say, some readers come nearer to understanding the heart of the story than others. This is inevitable, and even people who do not admit much in the way of objective reality seem to know intuitively that one interpretation of a story is better, nearer to the truth, than another. But what do we mean by "the heart of the story"? What do we mean by "the truth" of it? Why do we know that one critique comes nearer to it than some other and not as near as another? We know it because there is indeed an objective meaning that hangs around a story, and we can tell when somebody's notion gets nearer or farther from that meaning, maybe even to the point where the notion is simply a private flight of fancy, having nothing at all to do with the story in question. So when we admit a hierarchy of subjectivity, we admit as well the existence of an objective truth, else the hierarchy of subjectivity has no basis against which to be measured. The same is true for morality. Subjective moral orders do exist, of course. But their existence in no way precludes the existence of an objective moral order as well. You and I and many others might agree that it is morally wrong to burn down a neighbor's house and especially so when the neighbors are inside. We might find a few people who see no moral problem with burning down buildings so long as they feel sufficiently angry, but most people would agree that arson in general is wrong. That popular agreement, however, is not what makes it objectively true. Popular agreement about a moral issue is merely, as you say, intersubjectivity. But reality is not a democracy. It cares not what the prevailing subjective opinion happens to be at a given moment and in a given place. Either there is something objectively wrong with arson, or there is not. Either there is an objective moral law that precludes malice against one's neighbor, or there is not. Whether or not an individual believes in the existence of such a moral order has no bearing on whether or not it exists. Lancelot provides a good example of the coexistence of subjective and objective morality. He has designed his own subjective moral code, and he believes it to be "right," which implies that he believes it to coincide with an objective moral order. He even says that he will give Percival's God some time to act in accordance with his perceptions (256). Percival, on the other hand, has adopted (or readopted, perhaps, after listening to Lancelot's chilling tale) the moral order proclaimed by the Catholic church. You could say, of course, that the Church's moral theology is just another subjective moral order, and that would be true in the sense that it is articulated by a particular body. But its subjectivity in no way prohibits it from aligning with the objective moral order as well. The same is true for Lance's morality. The fact that it is subjectively his does not in itself preclude it from aligning with reality as regards the true nature of things in their moral context. Lance's read on God's world is like a reader's interpretation of Percy's *Lancelot*. It may be close or far or somewhere in between with regard to the reality of the thing being observed. Though Lancelot and the Church (via Percival) do not agree exactly on what the objective moral law entails, they both believe it exists. The modern world, however, does not. That final conversation on the final page of the book: "But you know this! One of us is wrong. It will be your way or it will be my way." *Yes.* "All we can agree on is that it will not be their way. Out there." *Yes.* "There is no other way than yours or mine, true?" *Yes*. Lance is asserting, and Percival is agreeing, that there is a "right" way and that the modern world is not on it. The world's new motto is, "IF IT FEELS GOOD DO IT" (255). The whole idea of an objective moral order has been rejected, and the cascading consequences for that are described in great detail in the pages of the novel. Although both men (Lance and Percival) reject the modern mantra, Lance's reaction is characterized by anger and disdain (and eventually coldness), whereas Percival's is characterized by sorrow mixed with the hope of repentance and its flower, redemption. Best, Mike Larson On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:49 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) > 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 > From: Steve Petrica > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > Message-ID: > wmg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series > on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina > philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > presents *The > Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to > relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/5ef16698/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > Message-ID: > < > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike and David, > > Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we > accept Percy's Catholicism." > For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French > existentialism, his Catholicism has > been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his > calling card with many of his readers, > it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read > 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. > Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an > objective moral order," that you used in > your first message opening this topic. > > A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It > can be shared intersubjectively, > take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over > such long periods of time that there > is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or > semantically as "objective." And, in fact, > Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by > aggressively proselytizing itself > around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order > remains subjective phenomenon > regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order > can only gain intersubjectivity by > being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. > > A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with > whatever personal quirks they > may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they > implement it in their own interactions > with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the > end of the novel. He is going > to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own > interactions with others. He hopes, even > assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change > anything about what he intends > to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective > interactions with others is what is > needed to get released and to find absolution. > > And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't > know how many pages of > Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the > "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar > resolution and absolution in the course of > the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral > order into action on a local level. > I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local > priest could be. Someone knowing > everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you > were lost. You could lay out what > was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and > the priest could give > you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" > Percival would be making his moral order > existentially objective as well. > > And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being > released too. > > In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just > those to priests and psychiatrists, > but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as > that. They all demand contrition > and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different > standards as to what produces or > qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role > in our lives than I thought before > reading this novel. > > Thanks, > Tom > > On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson > wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People > > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude > it > > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's > anticipatory > > perceptions of it. > > > > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously > > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then > > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions > have > > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective > notion--one > > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were > > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be > > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the > > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in > > question. > > > > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God > > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. > But > > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has > > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. > > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's > > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > > > > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. > > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now > > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, > > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, > the > > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's > > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long > > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. > > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > > > > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that > > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of > Percival > > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel > > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. > > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in > the > > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, > > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, > > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. > > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, > > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > > > > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we > can > > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring > > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's > end, > > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to > > reach in order to find life. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > >> From: "Beck, David A" > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue > >> 6 > >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >> > >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't > >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to > >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he > >> wasn't repentant. > >> > > > > > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At > >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After > >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then > he > >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in > >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the > real > >> protagonist. > >> > > > > > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) > >> > > > > > Just my two cents. > >> > >> -David > >> > >> David Beck > >> Senior Lecturer > >> English Department > >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 > >> 317-278-2550 > >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/c5c837bf/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) > From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. > Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. > I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am > not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And > I love his humor. > The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? > So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at > heart.? > I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly > described the novel. > Thank you for this. > Janet Cantor > On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica < > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote: > > Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/f941ff4a/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 12:43:20 2020 From: lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com (Lauren Berdy) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:43:20 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you sir And friend of the Dr. They loved each other for the others sake, not their own. Sent from my iPad > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: > > ? > ? if we > accept Percy's Catholicism." > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM wrote: >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) >> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 >> From: Steve Petrica >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she >> presents *The >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." >> >> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 >> From: Thomas Gollier >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Mike and David, >> >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we >> accept Percy's Catholicism." >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French >> existentialism, his Catholicism has >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his >> calling card with many of his readers, >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an >> objective moral order," that you used in >> your first message opening this topic. >> >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It >> can be shared intersubjectively, >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over >> such long periods of time that there >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or >> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by >> aggressively proselytizing itself >> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order >> remains subjective phenomenon >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order >> can only gain intersubjectivity by >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. >> >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with >> whatever personal quirks they >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they >> implement it in their own interactions >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the >> end of the novel. He is going >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own >> interactions with others. He hopes, even >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change >> anything about what he intends >> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective >> interactions with others is what is >> needed to get released and to find absolution. >> >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't >> know how many pages of >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar >> resolution and absolution in the course of >> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral >> order into action on a local level. >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local >> priest could be. Someone knowing >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you >> were lost. You could lay out what >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and >> the priest could give >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" >> Percival would be making his moral order >> existentially objective as well. >> >> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being >> released too. >> >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just >> those to priests and psychiatrists, >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as >> that. They all demand contrition >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different >> standards as to what produces or >> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role >> in our lives than I thought before >> reading this novel. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson >> wrote: >> >> > Tom, >> > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory >> > perceptions of it. >> > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in >> > question. >> > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." >> > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. >> > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. >> > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to >> > reach in order to find life. >> > >> > Mike >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 >> >> From: "Beck, David A" >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue >> >> 6 >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he >> >> wasn't repentant. >> >> >> > >> >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real >> >> protagonist. >> >> >> > >> >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) >> >> >> > >> >> > Just my two cents. >> >> >> >> -David >> >> >> >> David Beck >> >> Senior Lecturer >> >> English Department >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> >> 317-278-2550 >> >> >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) >> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And I love his humor. >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at heart.? >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly described the novel. >> Thank you for this. >> Janet Cantor >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica wrote: >> >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." >> >> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning >> ---------------------------------- >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 >> **************************************** > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowry.charles at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 12:44:27 2020 From: lowry.charles at gmail.com (Charles Lowry) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02@gmail.com> I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that Percy ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for one very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism. There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics. We were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church for a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the Church, the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs effect. Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books and therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might call an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned in two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church or for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass with Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than vice versa. Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: > > ? > ? if we > accept Percy's Catholicism." > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM wrote: >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) >> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 >> From: Steve Petrica >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she >> presents *The >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." >> >> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 >> From: Thomas Gollier >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Mike and David, >> >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we >> accept Percy's Catholicism." >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French >> existentialism, his Catholicism has >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his >> calling card with many of his readers, >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an >> objective moral order," that you used in >> your first message opening this topic. >> >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It >> can be shared intersubjectively, >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over >> such long periods of time that there >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or >> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by >> aggressively proselytizing itself >> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order >> remains subjective phenomenon >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order >> can only gain intersubjectivity by >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. >> >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with >> whatever personal quirks they >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they >> implement it in their own interactions >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the >> end of the novel. He is going >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own >> interactions with others. He hopes, even >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change >> anything about what he intends >> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective >> interactions with others is what is >> needed to get released and to find absolution. >> >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't >> know how many pages of >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar >> resolution and absolution in the course of >> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral >> order into action on a local level. >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local >> priest could be. Someone knowing >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you >> were lost. You could lay out what >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and >> the priest could give >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" >> Percival would be making his moral order >> existentially objective as well. >> >> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being >> released too. >> >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just >> those to priests and psychiatrists, >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as >> that. They all demand contrition >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different >> standards as to what produces or >> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role >> in our lives than I thought before >> reading this novel. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson >> wrote: >> >> > Tom, >> > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory >> > perceptions of it. >> > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in >> > question. >> > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." >> > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. >> > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. >> > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to >> > reach in order to find life. >> > >> > Mike >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 >> >> From: "Beck, David A" >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue >> >> 6 >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he >> >> wasn't repentant. >> >> >> > >> >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real >> >> protagonist. >> >> >> > >> >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) >> >> >> > >> >> > Just my two cents. >> >> >> >> -David >> >> >> >> David Beck >> >> Senior Lecturer >> >> English Department >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >> >> 317-278-2550 >> >> >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) >> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And I love his humor. >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at heart.? >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly described the novel. >> Thank you for this. >> Janet Cantor >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica wrote: >> >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." >> >> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning >> ---------------------------------- >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Percy-L mailing list >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 >> **************************************** > > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stephenholmgren at me.com Thu Jul 23 12:58:40 2020 From: stephenholmgren at me.com (Stephen Holmgren) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:58:40 -0400 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With regard to the question about Percy?s Catholicism, it is worth bearing in mind his decision to become an oblate of St. Joseph?s Benedictine Abbey near his Covington home, as well as his desire to be buried in its cemetery. These decisions witness to a more than cursory interest in the historic Church?s sacramental view of Creation as well as the sturdy anthropology that goes along with it. They also suggest that his choices were rooted in his spiritual submission to something greater than himself rather than having been a series of acts of accommodation for things that he thought were compatible with himself. Stephen Holmgren stephenholmgren at me.com blog: www.towardbeauty.org book: Ethics After Easter > On Jul 23, 2020, at 12:44 PM, percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote: > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400 > From: Charles Lowry > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that Percy ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for one very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism. > > There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics. We were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church for a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the Church, the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs effect. > > Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books and therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might call an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned in two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church or for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass with Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than vice versa. > > Chuck Lowry > Brooklyn, New York > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: >> >> ? >> ? if we >> accept Percy's Catholicism." >> >> I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. >> >>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM wrote: >>> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to >>> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) >>> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) >>> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 >>> From: Steve Petrica >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>> >>> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series >>> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina >>> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she >>> presents *The >>> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to >>> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." >>> >>> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 >>> From: Thomas Gollier >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Mike and David, >>> >>> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we >>> accept Percy's Catholicism." >>> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French >>> existentialism, his Catholicism has >>> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is his >>> calling card with many of his readers, >>> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read >>> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. >>> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an >>> objective moral order," that you used in >>> your first message opening this topic. >>> >>> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. It >>> can be shared intersubjectively, >>> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over >>> such long periods of time that there >>> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or >>> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, >>> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by >>> aggressively proselytizing itself >>> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order >>> remains subjective phenomenon >>> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral order >>> can only gain intersubjectivity by >>> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. >>> >>> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with >>> whatever personal quirks they >>> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they >>> implement it in their own interactions >>> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the >>> end of the novel. He is going >>> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own >>> interactions with others. He hopes, even >>> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change >>> anything about what he intends >>> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective >>> interactions with others is what is >>> needed to get released and to find absolution. >>> >>> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't >>> know how many pages of >>> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the >>> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). >>> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar >>> resolution and absolution in the course of >>> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral >>> order into action on a local level. >>> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local >>> priest could be. Someone knowing >>> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you >>> were lost. You could lay out what >>> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and >>> the priest could give >>> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" >>> Percival would be making his moral order >>> existentially objective as well. >>> >>> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being >>> released too. >>> >>> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just >>> those to priests and psychiatrists, >>> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as >>> that. They all demand contrition >>> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different >>> standards as to what produces or >>> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger role >>> in our lives than I thought before >>> reading this novel. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Tom >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the >>>> afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less >>>> hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People >>>> have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude it >>>> from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's anticipatory >>>> perceptions of it. >>>> >>>> You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously >>>> with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then >>>> presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions have >>>> been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective notion--one >>>> person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were >>>> getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be >>>> communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the >>>> divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in >>>> question. >>>> >>>> But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and >>>> communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God >>>> (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a >>>> description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge. But >>>> he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has >>>> attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas. >>>> And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that >>>> Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's >>>> not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." >>>> >>>> So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a >>>> refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no >>>> unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision. >>>> But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no >>>> confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now >>>> except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed, >>>> according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him, the >>>> thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's >>>> release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long >>>> recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death. >>>> And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new >>>> beginning of sorts but not a happy one. >>>> >>>> In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that >>>> Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of Percival >>>> over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel >>>> more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead. >>>> We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in the >>>> cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave, >>>> that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, >>>> Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays. >>>> But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate, >>>> and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been >>>> telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we can >>>> speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring >>>> Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's end, >>>> he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to >>>> reach in order to find life. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 >>>>> From: "Beck, David A" >>>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue >>>>> 6 >>>>> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't >>>>> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to >>>>> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he >>>>> wasn't repentant. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At >>>>> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After >>>>> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then he >>>>> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in >>>>> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the real >>>>> protagonist. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-) >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> Just my two cents. >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>>> >>>>> David Beck >>>>> Senior Lecturer >>>>> English Department >>>>> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis >>>>> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E >>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 >>>>> 317-278-2550 >>>>> >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) >>> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life >>> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. >>> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And I love his humor. >>> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? >>> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at heart.? >>> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly described the novel. >>> Thank you for this. >>> Janet Cantor >>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica wrote: >>> >>> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." >>> >>> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning >>> ---------------------------------- >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >>> >>> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >>> >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: Digest Footer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Percy-L mailing list >>> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 >>> **************************************** >> >> ---------------------------------- >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ >> >> * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l >> >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org >> >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > **************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Thu Jul 23 13:43:45 2020 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:43:45 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did I say anything about Percy having a ?cursory interest? in any of the matters you link to this phrase? On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:07 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 (Stephen Holmgren) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:58:40 -0400 > From: Stephen Holmgren > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > With regard to the question about Percy?s Catholicism, it is worth bearing > in mind his decision to become an oblate of St. Joseph?s Benedictine Abbey > near his Covington home, as well as his desire to be buried in its > cemetery. These decisions witness to a more than cursory interest in the > historic Church?s sacramental view of Creation as well as the sturdy > anthropology that goes along with it. They also suggest that his choices > were rooted in his spiritual submission to something greater than himself > rather than having been a series of acts of accommodation for things that > he thought were compatible with himself. > > > Stephen Holmgren > > stephenholmgren at me.com > blog: www.towardbeauty.org > book: Ethics After Easter < > https://smile.amazon.com/Ethics-After-Easter-Churchs-Teaching-ebook/dp/B009D1S374/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SATXO0UBWR8K&keywords=ethics+after+easter&qid=1555680856&s=gateway&sprefix=ethics+after+,aps,157&sr=8-1 > > > > > > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 12:44 PM, percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote: > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400 > > From: Charles Lowry > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 at gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and > consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that Percy > ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for one > very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism. > > > > There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle > Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over > multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics. We > were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all > Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church for > a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of > family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the Church, > the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are > intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are > sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs > effect. > > > > Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books > and therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might > call an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned > in two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of > humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not > because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the > Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the > ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics > Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church or > for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass with > Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus > seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than vice > versa. > > > > Chuck Lowry > > Brooklyn, New York > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: > >> > >> ? > >> ? if we > >> accept Percy's Catholicism." > >> > >> I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a > touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt > and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in > our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly > ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of > us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke > his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play > choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a > Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He > understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them > through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move > carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. > >> > >>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM > wrote: > >>> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > >>> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> > >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >>> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> > >>> You can reach the person managing the list at > >>> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> > >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >>> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > >>> > >>> > >>> Today's Topics: > >>> > >>> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) > >>> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) > >>> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > >>> > >>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> Message: 1 > >>> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 > >>> From: Steve Petrica > >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >>> > >>> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > >>> Message-ID: > >>> wmg at mail.gmail.com> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>> > >>> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > series > >>> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina > >>> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > >>> presents *The > >>> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts > to > >>> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > >>> > >>> > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > >>> -------------- next part -------------- > >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>> URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/5ef16698/attachment-0001.html > > > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Message: 2 > >>> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 > >>> From: Thomas Gollier > >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > >>> Message-ID: > >>> < > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>> > >>> Mike and David, > >>> > >>> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: > "if we > >>> accept Percy's Catholicism." > >>> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French > >>> existentialism, his Catholicism has > >>> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this > is his > >>> calling card with many of his readers, > >>> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read > >>> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. > >>> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an > >>> objective moral order," that you used in > >>> your first message opening this topic. > >>> > >>> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective > phenomenon. It > >>> can be shared intersubjectively, > >>> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over > >>> such long periods of time that there > >>> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" > or > >>> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, > >>> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective > mass by > >>> aggressively proselytizing itself > >>> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order > >>> remains subjective phenomenon > >>> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral > order > >>> can only gain intersubjectivity by > >>> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. > >>> > >>> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, > with > >>> whatever personal quirks they > >>> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they > >>> implement it in their own interactions > >>> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at > the > >>> end of the novel. He is going > >>> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own > >>> interactions with others. He hopes, even > >>> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't > change > >>> anything about what he intends > >>> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his > objective > >>> interactions with others is what is > >>> needed to get released and to find absolution. > >>> > >>> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I > don't > >>> know how many pages of > >>> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the > >>> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > >>> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar > >>> resolution and absolution in the course of > >>> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic > moral > >>> order into action on a local level. > >>> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local > >>> priest could be. Someone knowing > >>> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when > you > >>> were lost. You could lay out what > >>> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you > are, and > >>> the priest could give > >>> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" > >>> Percival would be making his moral order > >>> existentially objective as well. > >>> > >>> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being > >>> released too. > >>> > >>> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not > just > >>> those to priests and psychiatrists, > >>> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as > >>> that. They all demand contrition > >>> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very > different > >>> standards as to what produces or > >>> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger > role > >>> in our lives than I thought before > >>> reading this novel. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Tom > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Tom, > >>>> > >>>> I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > >>>> afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > >>>> hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. > People > >>>> have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not > preclude it > >>>> from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's > anticipatory > >>>> perceptions of it. > >>>> > >>>> You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left > unpretentiously > >>>> with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then > >>>> presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions > have > >>>> been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective > notion--one > >>>> person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were > >>>> getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell > could be > >>>> communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the > >>>> divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual > in > >>>> question. > >>>> > >>>> But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > >>>> communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward > God > >>>> (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > >>>> description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in > charge. But > >>>> he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival > has > >>>> attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own > ideas. > >>>> And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > >>>> Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but > it's > >>>> not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > >>>> > >>>> So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > >>>> refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > >>>> unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific > vision. > >>>> But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > >>>> confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing > now > >>>> except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is > fixed, > >>>> according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell > him, the > >>>> thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that > Lance's > >>>> release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the > long > >>>> recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon > death. > >>>> And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > >>>> beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > >>>> > >>>> In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume > that > >>>> Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of > Percival > >>>> over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men > feel > >>>> more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the > dead. > >>>> We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer > in the > >>>> cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) > grave, > >>>> that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, > >>>> Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he > prays. > >>>> But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's > fate, > >>>> and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > >>>> > >>>> On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > >>>> telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then > we can > >>>> speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to > bring > >>>> Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At > novel's end, > >>>> he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had > to > >>>> reach in order to find life. > >>>> > >>>> Mike > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > >>>>> From: "Beck, David A" > >>>>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue > >>>>> 6 > >>>>> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I > didn't > >>>>> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to > >>>>> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because > he > >>>>> wasn't repentant. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At > >>>>> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. > After > >>>>> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. > Then he > >>>>> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found > renewal in > >>>>> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the > real > >>>>> protagonist. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. > :-) > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> Just my two cents. > >>>>> > >>>>> -David > >>>>> > >>>>> David Beck > >>>>> Senior Lecturer > >>>>> English Department > >>>>> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > >>>>> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > >>>>> Indianapolis, IN 46202 > >>>>> 317-278-2550 > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- > >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>> URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/c5c837bf/attachment-0001.html > > > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Message: 3 > >>> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) > >>> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > >>> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > >>> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>> > >>> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The > Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. > >>> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it > out.I am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled > with malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his > novels. And I love his humor. > >>> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? > >>> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at > heart.? > >>> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so > aptly described the novel. > >>> Thank you for this. > >>> Janet Cantor > >>> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica < > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > >>> > >>> > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > >>> ---------------------------------- > >>> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >>> > >>> * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >>> > >>> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > >>> > >>> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >>> > >>> -------------- next part -------------- > >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>> URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/f941ff4a/attachment.html > > > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Subject: Digest Footer > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Percy-L mailing list > >>> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > >>> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------ > >>> > >>> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > >>> **************************************** > >> > >> ---------------------------------- > >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >> > >> * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >> > >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > >> > >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/71830c47/attachment.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > > **************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/2a735d44/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 20 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From janetcantor37 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 23 13:51:59 2020 From: janetcantor37 at yahoo.com (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1003730763.5228677.1595526719875@mail.yahoo.com> Michael Larson,YES!I agree.Janet Cantor On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:43 PM, Lauren Berdy wrote: ---------------------------------- * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Manage Your Membership: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Untitled URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 14:20:52 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:20:52 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marcus, Chuck, Lauren: I'm pretty sure I did not suggest that Percy was a touchstone for any particular Catholic doctrine. What I did say, and what I would continue to say, is that his Catholicism informs his work. He said so himself over and over in the interviews. The label of "Catholic" is one he did not try to avoid. And to my knowledge, he never disputed any Catholic teaching on faith or morals. If you have a record to the contrary, I would be sincerely interested in seeing it. It's true, he did not consider himself an evangelist. Why should he? He left that work to the Church. But he did consider himself a novelist and a philosopher (of sorts) who had come to believe in the Church's authority to carry the message of truth to the world. That's why he converted. Best, Mike Larson On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:45 AM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400 > From: Charles Lowry > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and > consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that Percy > ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for one > very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism. > > There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle > Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over > multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics. We > were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all > Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church for > a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of > family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the Church, > the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are > intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are > sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs > effect. > > Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books and > therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might call > an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned in > two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of > humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not > because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the > Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the > ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics > Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church or > for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass with > Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus > seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than vice > versa. > > Chuck Lowry > Brooklyn, New York > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: > > > > ? > > ? if we > > accept Percy's Catholicism." > > > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a > touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and Bunt > and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in > our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I certainly > ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all of > us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke > his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play > choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a > Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. He > understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them > through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move > carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. > > > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM > wrote: > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > >> > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) > >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) > >> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 > >> From: Steve Petrica > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >> > >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > >> Message-ID: > >> wmg at mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > series > >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina > >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > >> presents *The > >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to > >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > >> > >> > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/5ef16698/attachment-0001.html > > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 > >> From: Thomas Gollier > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > >> Message-ID: > >> < > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> Mike and David, > >> > >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: > "if we > >> accept Percy's Catholicism." > >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French > >> existentialism, his Catholicism has > >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this is > his > >> calling card with many of his readers, > >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read > >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. > >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an > >> objective moral order," that you used in > >> your first message opening this topic. > >> > >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. > It > >> can be shared intersubjectively, > >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over > >> such long periods of time that there > >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or > >> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, > >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective > mass by > >> aggressively proselytizing itself > >> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order > >> remains subjective phenomenon > >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral > order > >> can only gain intersubjectivity by > >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. > >> > >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, > with > >> whatever personal quirks they > >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they > >> implement it in their own interactions > >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at > the > >> end of the novel. He is going > >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own > >> interactions with others. He hopes, even > >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change > >> anything about what he intends > >> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his > objective > >> interactions with others is what is > >> needed to get released and to find absolution. > >> > >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I > don't > >> know how many pages of > >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the > >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar > >> resolution and absolution in the course of > >> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic > moral > >> order into action on a local level. > >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local > >> priest could be. Someone knowing > >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when > you > >> were lost. You could lay out what > >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, > and > >> the priest could give > >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" > >> Percival would be making his moral order > >> existentially objective as well. > >> > >> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being > >> released too. > >> > >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not > just > >> those to priests and psychiatrists, > >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as > >> that. They all demand contrition > >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very > different > >> standards as to what produces or > >> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger > role > >> in our lives than I thought before > >> reading this novel. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Tom > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Tom, > >> > > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. > People > >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not > preclude it > >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's > anticipatory > >> > perceptions of it. > >> > > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left > unpretentiously > >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then > >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions > have > >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective > notion--one > >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were > >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell > could be > >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the > >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual > in > >> > question. > >> > > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward > God > >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in > charge. But > >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival > has > >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own > ideas. > >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but > it's > >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > >> > > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific > vision. > >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing > now > >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is > fixed, > >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell > him, the > >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that > Lance's > >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the > long > >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon > death. > >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > >> > > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume > that > >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of > Percival > >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men > feel > >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the > dead. > >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer > in the > >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) > grave, > >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life, > >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he > prays. > >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's > fate, > >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > >> > > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then > we can > >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to > bring > >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At > novel's end, > >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had > to > >> > reach in order to find life. > >> > > >> > Mike > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > >> >> From: "Beck, David A" > >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >> >> > >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue > >> >> 6 > >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > >> >> > >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I > didn't > >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to > >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because > he > >> >> wasn't repentant. > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At > >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. > After > >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. > Then he > >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found > renewal in > >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the > real > >> >> protagonist. > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. > :-) > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > Just my two cents. > >> >> > >> >> -David > >> >> > >> >> David Beck > >> >> Senior Lecturer > >> >> English Department > >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 > >> >> 317-278-2550 > >> >> > >> > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/c5c837bf/attachment-0001.html > > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) > >> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > >> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The > Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. > >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I > am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And > I love his humor. > >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.? > >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at > heart.? > >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so > aptly described the novel. > >> Thank you for this. > >> Janet Cantor > >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica < > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > >> > >> > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > >> ---------------------------------- > >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > >> > >> * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >> > >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > >> > >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/f941ff4a/attachment.html > > > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Subject: Digest Footer > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Percy-L mailing list > >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > >> **************************************** > > > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/71830c47/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at loyno.edu Thu Jul 23 15:15:56 2020 From: marcus at loyno.edu (Marcus Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:15:56 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There used to be a lunch group that Percy regularly attended. We met at a restaurant In Mandeville. In driving across Lake Ponchartrain on that deeply Cartesian Causeway, I would sometimes try to think of a ?good? question to ask Percy. I usually felt I knew what he would say. He invariably surprised me. This is one reason I cannot use him as a touchstone. Except for LSU football. On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:21 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 (Michael Larson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC) > From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > Message-ID: <1003730763.5228677.1595526719875 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Michael Larson,YES!I agree.Janet Cantor > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:43 PM, Lauren Berdy< > lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com> wrote: > ---------------------------------- > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > * Manage Your Membership: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/d95dbea9/attachment-0001.html > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... > Name: Untitled > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/d95dbea9/attachment-0001.ksh > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:20:52 -0500 > From: Michael Larson > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > Message-ID: > < > CAMmLp8gmtRYsHPogvSWCkMqKGJan7Dk8CpJtbnrU7vND7XYgBQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Marcus, Chuck, Lauren: > > I'm pretty sure I did not suggest that Percy was a touchstone for any > particular Catholic doctrine. What I did say, and what I would continue to > say, is that his Catholicism informs his work. He said so himself over and > over in the interviews. The label of "Catholic" is one he did not try to > avoid. And to my knowledge, he never disputed any Catholic teaching on > faith or morals. If you have a record to the contrary, I would be sincerely > interested in seeing it. It's true, he did not consider himself an > evangelist. Why should he? He left that work to the Church. But he did > consider himself a novelist and a philosopher (of sorts) who had come to > believe in the Church's authority to carry the message of truth to the > world. That's why he converted. > > Best, > Mike Larson > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:45 AM > wrote: > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400 > > From: Charles Lowry > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 at gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and > > consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that Percy > > ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for > one > > very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism. > > > > There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle > > Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over > > multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics. > We > > were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all > > Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church > for > > a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of > > family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the Church, > > the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are > > intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are > > sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs > > effect. > > > > Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books and > > therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might > call > > an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned in > > two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of > > humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not > > because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the > > Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the > > ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics > > Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church > or > > for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass > with > > Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus > > seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than > vice > > versa. > > > > Chuck Lowry > > Brooklyn, New York > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: > > > > > > ? > > > ? if we > > > accept Percy's Catholicism." > > > > > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a > > touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and > Bunt > > and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in > > our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I > certainly > > ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all > of > > us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke > > his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play > > choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a > > Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. > He > > understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them > > through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move > > carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims. > > > > > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM > > wrote: > > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > >> > > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > >> > > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > > >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > >> > > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > >> > > >> > > >> Today's Topics: > > >> > > >> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) > > >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) > > >> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> Message: 1 > > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 > > >> From: Steve Petrica > > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > >> > > >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > > >> Message-ID: > > >> > wmg at mail.gmail.com> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >> > > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > > series > > >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > Carolina > > >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > > >> presents *The > > >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts > to > > >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > >> > > >> > > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >> URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/5ef16698/attachment-0001.html > > > > > >> > > >> ------------------------------ > > >> > > >> Message: 2 > > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 > > >> From: Thomas Gollier > > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > >> > > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > > >> Message-ID: > > >> < > > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >> > > >> Mike and David, > > >> > > >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: > > "if we > > >> accept Percy's Catholicism." > > >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French > > >> existentialism, his Catholicism has > > >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this > is > > his > > >> calling card with many of his readers, > > >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read > > >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. > > >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an > > >> objective moral order," that you used in > > >> your first message opening this topic. > > >> > > >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon. > > It > > >> can be shared intersubjectively, > > >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many > over > > >> such long periods of time that there > > >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" > or > > >> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, > > >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective > > mass by > > >> aggressively proselytizing itself > > >> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order > > >> remains subjective phenomenon > > >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral > > order > > >> can only gain intersubjectivity by > > >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. > > >> > > >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, > > with > > >> whatever personal quirks they > > >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they > > >> implement it in their own interactions > > >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at > > the > > >> end of the novel. He is going > > >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own > > >> interactions with others. He hopes, even > > >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't > change > > >> anything about what he intends > > >> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his > > objective > > >> interactions with others is what is > > >> needed to get released and to find absolution. > > >> > > >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I > > don't > > >> know how many pages of > > >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the > > >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > > >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar > > >> resolution and absolution in the course of > > >> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic > > moral > > >> order into action on a local level. > > >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the > local > > >> priest could be. Someone knowing > > >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when > > you > > >> were lost. You could lay out what > > >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you > are, > > and > > >> the priest could give > > >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" > > >> Percival would be making his moral order > > >> existentially objective as well. > > >> > > >> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being > > >> released too. > > >> > > >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not > > just > > >> those to priests and psychiatrists, > > >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such > as > > >> that. They all demand contrition > > >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very > > different > > >> standards as to what produces or > > >> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger > > role > > >> in our lives than I thought before > > >> reading this novel. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Tom > > >> > > >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson > > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> > Tom, > > >> > > > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > > >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less > > >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. > > People > > >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not > > preclude it > > >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's > > anticipatory > > >> > perceptions of it. > > >> > > > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left > > unpretentiously > > >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is > then > > >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all > pretensions > > have > > >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective > > notion--one > > >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you > were > > >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell > > could be > > >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward > the > > >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual > > in > > >> > question. > > >> > > > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and > > >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward > > God > > >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a > > >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in > > charge. But > > >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that > Percival > > has > > >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own > > ideas. > > >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that > > >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but > > it's > > >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > > >> > > > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a > > >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > > >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific > > vision. > > >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > > >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing > > now > > >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is > > fixed, > > >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell > > him, the > > >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that > > Lance's > > >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the > > long > > >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon > > death. > > >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new > > >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > > >> > > > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume > > that > > >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of > > Percival > > >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men > > feel > > >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the > > dead. > > >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer > > in the > > >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) > > grave, > > >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of > life, > > >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he > > prays. > > >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's > > fate, > > >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance. > > >> > > > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been > > >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then > > we can > > >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to > > bring > > >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At > > novel's end, > > >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had > > to > > >> > reach in order to find life. > > >> > > > >> > Mike > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > > >> >> From: "Beck, David A" > > >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > >> >> > > >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, > Issue > > >> >> 6 > > >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > >> >> > > >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I > > didn't > > >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem > to > > >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because > > he > > >> >> wasn't repentant. > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > At > > >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. > > After > > >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. > > Then he > > >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found > > renewal in > > >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is > the > > real > > >> >> protagonist. > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. > > :-) > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > >> > Just my two cents. > > >> >> > > >> >> -David > > >> >> > > >> >> David Beck > > >> >> Senior Lecturer > > >> >> English Department > > >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > > >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > > >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 > > >> >> 317-278-2550 > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >> URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/c5c837bf/attachment-0001.html > > > > > >> > > >> ------------------------------ > > >> > > >> Message: 3 > > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) > > >> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > >> > > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > > >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > >> > > >> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The > > Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. > > >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it > out.I > > am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with > > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. > And > > I love his humor. > > >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson > > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life > > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated > soul.? > > >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the > > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from > > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right > > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at > > heart.? > > >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so > > aptly described the novel. > > >> Thank you for this. > > >> Janet Cantor > > >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica < > > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, > she > > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our > > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > >> > > >> > > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > > >> ---------------------------------- > > >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > >> > > >> * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > >> > > >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > >> > > >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > >> > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >> URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/f941ff4a/attachment.html > > > > > >> > > >> ------------------------------ > > >> > > >> Subject: Digest Footer > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Percy-L mailing list > > >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------ > > >> > > >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > > >> **************************************** > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/71830c47/attachment.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > > **************************************** > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/a17fd335/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 15:27:08 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:27:08 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marcus, yes, I don't doubt that he invariably surprised you. The artist in him was anything but predictable. He seems not to have liked labels in general and knee-jerk responses to things according to one's social or political affiliations. As a thinker of the first order, he was always a level or two under the surface about whatever was going on, considering causes and diagnostics that had escaped most others. I did not have the pleasure of spending time with him, as you did, but that is definitely my impression of him based on all his essays, novels, and interviews. He did not gravitate to easy answers. Would love to hear any other anecdotal reflections of him that you care to share. ML On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 2:17 PM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22 (Marcus Smith) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:15:56 -0500 > From: Marcus Smith > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22 > Message-ID: > k48-xoh_Qw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > There used to be a lunch group that Percy regularly attended. We met at a > restaurant In Mandeville. In driving across Lake Ponchartrain on that > deeply Cartesian Causeway, I would sometimes try to think of a ?good? > question to ask Percy. I usually felt I knew what he would say. He > invariably surprised me. > This is one reason I cannot use him as a touchstone. Except for LSU > football. > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:21 PM wrote: > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > > 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 (Michael Larson) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC) > > From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > > Message-ID: <1003730763.5228677.1595526719875 at mail.yahoo.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Michael Larson,YES!I agree.Janet Cantor > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:43 PM, Lauren Berdy< > > lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com> wrote: > > ---------------------------------- > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/d95dbea9/attachment-0001.html > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... > > Name: Untitled > > URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/d95dbea9/attachment-0001.ksh > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:20:52 -0500 > > From: Michael Larson > > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > > Message-ID: > > < > > CAMmLp8gmtRYsHPogvSWCkMqKGJan7Dk8CpJtbnrU7vND7XYgBQ at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Marcus, Chuck, Lauren: > > > > I'm pretty sure I did not suggest that Percy was a touchstone for any > > particular Catholic doctrine. What I did say, and what I would continue > to > > say, is that his Catholicism informs his work. He said so himself over > and > > over in the interviews. The label of "Catholic" is one he did not try to > > avoid. And to my knowledge, he never disputed any Catholic teaching on > > faith or morals. If you have a record to the contrary, I would be > sincerely > > interested in seeing it. It's true, he did not consider himself an > > evangelist. Why should he? He left that work to the Church. But he did > > consider himself a novelist and a philosopher (of sorts) who had come to > > believe in the Church's authority to carry the message of truth to the > > world. That's why he converted. > > > > Best, > > Mike Larson > > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:45 AM > > wrote: > > > > > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry) > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400 > > > From: Charles Lowry > > > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > > > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > > > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 at gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and > > > consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that > Percy > > > ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for > > one > > > very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism. > > > > > > There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle > > > Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over > > > multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics. > > We > > > were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all > > > Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church > > for > > > a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of > > > family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the > Church, > > > the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are > > > intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are > > > sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs > > > effect. > > > > > > Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books > and > > > therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might > > call > > > an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned > in > > > two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of > > > humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not > > > because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the > > > Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the > > > ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the > apologetics > > > Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the > Church > > or > > > for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass > > with > > > Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus > > > seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than > > vice > > > versa. > > > > > > Chuck Lowry > > > Brooklyn, New York > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith wrote: > > > > > > > > ? > > > > ? if we > > > > accept Percy's Catholicism." > > > > > > > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a > > > touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and > > Bunt > > > and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests > in > > > our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I > > certainly > > > ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all > > of > > > us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to > invoke > > > his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play > > > choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a > > > Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing. > > He > > > understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them > > > through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move > > > carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal > claims. > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM > > > wrote: > > > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > > > >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > > >> > > > >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > >> percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > > >> > > > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > > > >> percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > > >> > > > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Today's Topics: > > > >> > > > >> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica) > > > >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier) > > > >> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life ( > janetcantor37 at yahoo.com) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > > > >> Message: 1 > > > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500 > > > >> From: Steve Petrica > > > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > >> > > > >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > > > >> Message-ID: > > > >> > > wmg at mail.gmail.com> > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >> > > > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > > > series > > > >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > > Carolina > > > >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she > > > >> presents *The > > > >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our > attempts > > to > > > >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/5ef16698/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> Message: 2 > > > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700 > > > >> From: Thomas Gollier > > > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > >> > > > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 > > > >> Message-ID: > > > >> < > > > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com> > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >> > > > >> Mike and David, > > > >> > > > >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: > > > "if we > > > >> accept Percy's Catholicism." > > > >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and > French > > > >> existentialism, his Catholicism has > > > >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this > > is > > > his > > > >> calling card with many of his readers, > > > >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read > > > >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion. > > > >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an > > > >> objective moral order," that you used in > > > >> your first message opening this topic. > > > >> > > > >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective > phenomenon. > > > It > > > >> can be shared intersubjectively, > > > >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many > > over > > > >> such long periods of time that there > > > >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an > "institution" > > or > > > >> semantically as "objective." And, in fact, > > > >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective > > > mass by > > > >> aggressively proselytizing itself > > > >> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral > order > > > >> remains subjective phenomenon > > > >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral > > > order > > > >> can only gain intersubjectivity by > > > >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own. > > > >> > > > >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from > others, > > > with > > > >> whatever personal quirks they > > > >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until > they > > > >> implement it in their own interactions > > > >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do > at > > > the > > > >> end of the novel. He is going > > > >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own > > > >> interactions with others. He hopes, even > > > >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't > > change > > > >> anything about what he intends > > > >> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his > > > objective > > > >> interactions with others is what is > > > >> needed to get released and to find absolution. > > > >> > > > >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through > I > > > don't > > > >> know how many pages of > > > >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the > > > >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). > > > >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar > > > >> resolution and absolution in the course of > > > >> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic > > > moral > > > >> order into action on a local level. > > > >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the > > local > > > >> priest could be. Someone knowing > > > >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to > when > > > you > > > >> were lost. You could lay out what > > > >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you > > are, > > > and > > > >> the priest could give > > > >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native" > > > >> Percival would be making his moral order > > > >> existentially objective as well. > > > >> > > > >> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being > > > >> released too. > > > >> > > > >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not > > > just > > > >> those to priests and psychiatrists, > > > >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such > > as > > > >> that. They all demand contrition > > > >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very > > > different > > > >> standards as to what produces or > > > >> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger > > > role > > > >> in our lives than I thought before > > > >> reading this novel. > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> Tom > > > >> > > > >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson < > larsonovic at gmail.com > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > Tom, > > > >> > > > > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the > > > >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is > less > > > >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. > > > People > > > >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not > > > preclude it > > > >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's > > > anticipatory > > > >> > perceptions of it. > > > >> > > > > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left > > > unpretentiously > > > >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is > > then > > > >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all > > pretensions > > > have > > > >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective > > > notion--one > > > >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you > > were > > > >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell > > > could be > > > >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward > > the > > > >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the > individual > > > in > > > >> > question. > > > >> > > > > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) > and > > > >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture > toward > > > God > > > >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be > a > > > >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in > > > charge. But > > > >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that > > Percival > > > has > > > >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own > > > ideas. > > > >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility > that > > > >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, > but > > > it's > > > >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes." > > > >> > > > > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is > a > > > >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no > > > >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific > > > vision. > > > >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no > > > >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel > nothing > > > now > > > >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is > > > fixed, > > > >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell > > > him, the > > > >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that > > > Lance's > > > >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the > > > long > > > >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon > > > death. > > > >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a > new > > > >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one. > > > >> > > > > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to > assume > > > that > > > >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of > > > Percival > > > >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two > men > > > feel > > > >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and > the > > > dead. > > > >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's > prayer > > > in the > > > >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) > > > grave, > > > >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of > > life, > > > >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he > > > prays. > > > >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know > Lance's > > > fate, > > > >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling > Lance. > > > >> > > > > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly > been > > > >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, > then > > > we can > > > >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin > to > > > bring > > > >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At > > > novel's end, > > > >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he > had > > > to > > > >> > reach in order to find life. > > > >> > > > > >> > Mike > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000 > > > >> >> From: "Beck, David A" > > > >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, > > Issue > > > >> >> 6 > > > >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu> > > > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > >> >> > > > >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I > > > didn't > > > >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't > seem > > to > > > >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, > because > > > he > > > >> >> wasn't repentant. > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John > (Percival). > > At > > > >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. > > > After > > > >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a > choice. > > > Then he > > > >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found > > > renewal in > > > >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is > > the > > > real > > > >> >> protagonist. > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the > years. > > > :-) > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > Just my two cents. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> -David > > > >> >> > > > >> >> David Beck > > > >> >> Senior Lecturer > > > >> >> English Department > > > >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > > > >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > > > >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202 > > > >> >> 317-278-2550 > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200722/c5c837bf/attachment-0001.html > > > > > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> Message: 3 > > > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC) > > > >> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" > > > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > > >> > > > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life > > > >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com> > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >> > > > >> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The > > > Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel. > > > >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it > > out.I > > > am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled > with > > > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. > > And > > > I love his humor. > > > >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in > lesson > > > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of > life > > > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated > > soul.? > > > >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the > > > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes > from > > > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right > > > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests > at > > > heart.? > > > >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so > > > aptly described the novel. > > > >> Thank you for this. > > > >> Janet Cantor > > > >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica < > > > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture > > > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South > > > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, > > she > > > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and > our > > > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions." > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning > > > >> ---------------------------------- > > > >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > >> > > > >> * Manage Your Membership: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > >> > > > >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > >> > > > >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > >> > > > >> -------------- next part -------------- > > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > >> URL: < > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/f941ff4a/attachment.html > > > > > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> Subject: Digest Footer > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Percy-L mailing list > > > >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ------------------------------ > > > >> > > > >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > > > >> **************************************** > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > > > > > > > > * Manage Your Membership: > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org > > > > > > > > * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: < > > > > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/71830c47/attachment.html > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Percy-L mailing list > > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 > > > **************************************** > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/a17fd335/attachment.html > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Percy-L mailing list > > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22 > > **************************************** > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200723/18f287a5/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 23 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 12:28:39 2020 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:28:39 -0700 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, I hope I'm not annoying you, or others, by pushing this discussion further, but I haven't had an exchange online like this since the good old days of the Peirce list, and I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking it would be worth the time it would take to scan in 'Lancelot' and go through it paragraph by paragraph as if it were a philosophical treatise on the nature of confessions in general. With that said, then, I was floating comfortably along in your message until I hit the sentence: So when we admit a hierarchy of subjectivity, we admit as well the existence of an objective truth, else the hierarchy of subjectivity has no basis against which to be measured. How does the notion of a "hierarchy of subjectivity" come from the possibility of infinite subjective interpretations and the fact some of those interpretations are better than others? It's more like the "better" comes from a sense of the center of those possibilities. I realize, for instance, that I have to grade my students' interpretations of an argument on a hierarchical scale, but I never grade them on whether I think their interpretations themselves are better or worse. I grade them on whether their interpretations are consistent and complete. These are what I would consider "objective realities" suitable to a hierarchical measurement. And, I propose to my students that the reason for objectively seeking out different interpretations is not to pick the right one. It is to get a non-objective sense of the center and most comprehensive comprehension of all those various interpretations. So when we shift to the question of a "moral code" ? I'd prefer to call it "moral bond" ? with my neighbor, I see that morality as a non-objective matter of trust. I trust my neighbor not to burn my house down (1) because I will not burn his house down, and (2) because he has shown no inclination to burn mine down. It's an act of faith, so long we don't look at "faith" as believing in miracles, precisely because there is no "objectivity" to it. If he does burn my house down, the reality of it ? and I do think there is a reality to it, the medieval reality of universals ? disappears in the smoke as if it was never there in the first place. And what's more important, and what Percy brings out so forcefully with Lancelot and his wife, is not only that I can no longer trust him or her ? that's obvious ? it's that I can no longer trust myself as a judge of trustworthy persons and the possibility of such relationships. I probably wouldn't go to a priest or a psychiatrist myself, but I would certainly need some kind of confessional confrontation with myself. Anyway, thanks again for pursuing these things with me, Tom On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:17 AM Michael Larson wrote: > Tom, > > Thanks for your comments. > > Yes, if we are talking about Percy's vision in *Lancelot, *then we cannot > ignore his Catholicism as a framework for the "reality" the novel exposes. > If, on the other hand, we are talking about readers making their own > meaning, then his Catholicism and even its implications for the characters > may be safely ignored. But this brings us back to that same issue of > objectivity. Readers are free, of course, to make whatever subjective > meaning they want to make of any piece of literature. But as soon as we > admit this freedom, there arises, once we begin to see the interpretations > rolling in, a kind of hierarchy of subjectivity. That is to say, some > readers come nearer to understanding the heart of the story than others. > This is inevitable, and even people who do not admit much in the way of > objective reality seem to know intuitively that one interpretation of a > story is better, nearer to the truth, than another. But what do we mean by > "the heart of the story"? What do we mean by "the truth" of it? Why do we > know that one critique comes nearer to it than some other and not as near > as another? We know it because there is indeed an objective meaning that > hangs around a story, and we can tell when somebody's notion gets nearer or > farther from that meaning, maybe even to the point where the notion is > simply a private flight of fancy, having nothing at all to do with the > story in question. So when we admit a hierarchy of subjectivity, we admit > as well the existence of an objective truth, else the hierarchy of > subjectivity has no basis against which to be measured. > > The same is true for morality. Subjective moral orders do exist, of > course. But their existence in no way precludes the existence of an > objective moral order as well. You and I and many others might agree that > it is morally wrong to burn down a neighbor's house and especially so when > the neighbors are inside. We might find a few people who see no moral > problem with burning down buildings so long as they feel sufficiently > angry, but most people would agree that arson in general is wrong. That > popular agreement, however, is not what makes it objectively true. Popular > agreement about a moral issue is merely, as you say, intersubjectivity. But > reality is not a democracy. It cares not what the prevailing subjective > opinion happens to be at a given moment and in a given place. Either there > is something objectively wrong with arson, or there is not. Either there is > an objective moral law that precludes malice against one's neighbor, or > there is not. Whether or not an individual believes in the existence of > such a moral order has no bearing on whether or not it exists. > > Lancelot provides a good example of the coexistence of subjective and > objective morality. He has designed his own subjective moral code, and he > believes it to be "right," which implies that he believes it to coincide > with an objective moral order. He even says that he will give Percival's > God some time to act in accordance with his perceptions (256). Percival, on > the other hand, has adopted (or readopted, perhaps, after listening to > Lancelot's chilling tale) the moral order proclaimed by the Catholic > church. You could say, of course, that the Church's moral theology is just > another subjective moral order, and that would be true in the sense that it > is articulated by a particular body. But its subjectivity in no way > prohibits it from aligning with the objective moral order as well. The same > is true for Lance's morality. The fact that it is subjectively his does not > in itself preclude it from aligning with reality as regards the true nature > of things in their moral context. Lance's read on God's world is like a > reader's interpretation of Percy's *Lancelot*. It may be close or far or > somewhere in between with regard to the reality of the thing being observed. > > Though Lancelot and the Church (via Percival) do not agree exactly on what > the objective moral law entails, they both believe it exists. The modern > world, however, does not. That final conversation on the final page of the > book: "But you know this! One of us is wrong. It will be your way or it > will be my way." *Yes.* "All we can agree on is that it will not be their > way. Out there." *Yes.* "There is no other way than yours or mine, true?" > *Yes*. > > Lance is asserting, and Percival is agreeing, that there is a "right" way > and that the modern world is not on it. The world's new motto is, "IF IT > FEELS GOOD DO IT" (255). The whole idea of an objective moral order has > been rejected, and the cascading consequences for that are described in > great detail in the pages of the novel. Although both men (Lance and > Percival) reject the modern mantra, Lance's reaction is characterized by > anger and disdain (and eventually coldness), whereas Percival's is > characterized by sorrow mixed with the hope of repentance and its flower, > redemption. > > Best, > Mike Larson > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larsonovic at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 16:33:45 2020 From: larsonovic at gmail.com (Michael Larson) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2020 15:33:45 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, You're not annoying me. I appreciate the dialogue. I'll try to respond. I'll start with your question: " How does the notion of a 'hierarchy of subjectivity' come from the possibility of infinite subjective interpretations and the fact some of those interpretations are better than others?" It comes contained in the last part of your question itself: "... the fact that some of those interpretations are better than others." If some interpretations are better than others, a hierarchy is by nature already established and an objective standard is likewise already implied. When you speak of how you grade student writing, you are talking about evaluating their display of a rhetorical skill set, not about their grasp of the truth. Those are two different things. Either one can be judged hierarchically. Elegance and cohesiveness of communication make a scale that is independent of what is true. One person may offer an elegant defense and plenty of cohesive reasoning as to why the earth is flat. Another person might stumble through a weak defense of the spinning globe. We might rank the former ahead of the latter in the skill set of rhetoric, but we might rank the latter ahead of the former in his apprehension of the truth as to the physical nature of the earth. The same is true when we look at a piece of literature: one person might write beautifully about something that goes quite astray of what the story means while another person might struggle in attempting to articulate what is essentially a deep understanding of that same story. Of course, we are most pleased when the two skills--communication and apprehension--are joined in a single work. Take, for example, Tolkien's marvelous essay (a lecture, actually), "The Monsters and the Critics." Prior to that lecture, many well-known scholars had failed to grasp both the artistic genius and the deep layers of meaning in *Beowulf*. In fact, they disdained many of the very things that Tolkien was able to rescue--and not because his subjective interpretation was more popular. It wasn't. In fact, it wasn't fully known until he put it into words, but when he did, many objective truths about the poem were made manifest to anyone who cared to see them and especially to those who had always had a sense for them but lacked the articulation. In short, Tolkien's interpretation was better than that of prior critics, and people knew it. They knew it because it is possible for humans to recognize when something is objectively true, especially when it provides relief against that which has been less than fully true. What I am asserting here seems in direct opposition to what you say a little later in your post: "I propose to my students that the reason for objectively seeking out different interpretations is not to pick the right one." My first thought about this is that there might not be a "right one." The presence of several interpretations is no guarantee that any of them has a good grasp on what is being interpreted. Alternatively, they might all be basically "right," more or less, though perhaps with differing levels of rhetorical effectiveness. In any case, I would always encourage my students to compare and contrast, to evaluate arguments, to measure what they read against reality, insofar as they have access to it. When the object is truth, then everyone--critics and readers--is essentially working together toward the same goal, though some with more success than others. But it sounds like, for you, the object is not so much truth as it is to work out a kind of subjective *average *in one's own mind. You say, "[The reason for seeking out different interpretations] is to get a non-objective sense of the center and most comprehensive comprehension of all those various interpretations." There is nothing wrong, of course, with understanding a variety of interpretations, but if the end of that understanding is merely to find the center of that variety, then we have diverted our gaze from the object under consideration and shifted it to the amalgamated opinion of the considerers. This is not exactly pure subjectivism, which would be interested only in one's own opinion, but it is a kind of preoccupation with potential means rather than the use of those means toward their natural end: to arrive at truth regarding the object under consideration. In your paragraph about morality, I'm not sure I follow the shift from moral code to moral bond. To recognize a moral code, whether subjective or objective, is a different mental act than to trust a neighbor not to harm you. The former is concerned with classification (i.e. this is good, this is evil) while the latter is concerned with prudential judgment (I predict that you will not burn my house down). So once again, both acts can be present: I can judge (whether accurately or not) that someone's burning down my house would be an evil act even as I also judge (whether accurately or not) that I do not think you will commit this act. Then if you do actually burn down my house, I will know that my trust was misplaced; the house will go up in smoke, but the classification of arson as evil will be quite untouched by those flames. It's true that if this happened, I would no longer trust you not to burn my house down. And yes, it's also possible, depending on how much I trusted you to begin with, that I might start to doubt, in general, my judgment of who is trustworthy and who is not. But to lose trust in others or in one's ability to assess the trustworthiness of others is not the same as losing the sense that some things are moral and that other things are immoral. I too find Lance and Margot to be untrustworthy in serious ways. The acts that reveal their untrustworthiness are also acts I understand to be objectively immoral. I would argue further that to even speak of trust and distrust once again implies an objective sense of morality in the one who trusts or distrusts. What makes us trust someone are typically things understood to be morally good: honesty, forthrightness, patience, stability, etc.. What makes us distrust someone are typically things understood to be morally bad: lying, deception, short-temperedness, fickleness, etc.. We know these things. Deep down. Mike On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 11:00 AM wrote: > Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to > percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Thomas Gollier) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:28:39 -0700 > From: Thomas Gollier > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion" > > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 > Message-ID: > 0LA9cqbgMwXndurQoeVMw1-Z7xEKTjw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Mike, > > I hope I'm not annoying you, or others, by pushing this discussion further, > but I haven't had an > exchange online like this since the good old days of the Peirce list, and > I'm getting to the point > where I'm thinking it would be worth the time it would take to scan in > 'Lancelot' and go through > it paragraph by paragraph as if it were a philosophical treatise on the > nature of confessions in > general. > > With that said, then, I was floating comfortably along in your message > until I hit the sentence: > > So when we admit a hierarchy of subjectivity, we admit as well the > existence of an objective > truth, else the hierarchy of subjectivity has no basis against which to > be measured. > > How does the notion of a "hierarchy of subjectivity" come from the > possibility of infinite subjective > interpretations and the fact some of those interpretations are better than > others? It's more like the > "better" comes from a sense of the center of those possibilities. I > realize, for instance, that I have > to grade my students' interpretations of an argument on a hierarchical > scale, but I never grade them > on whether I think their interpretations themselves are better or worse. I > grade them on whether > their interpretations are consistent and complete. These are what I would > consider "objective > realities" suitable to a hierarchical measurement. And, I propose to my > students that the reason for > objectively seeking out different interpretations is not to pick the right > one. It is to get a non-objective > sense of the center and most comprehensive comprehension of all those > various interpretations. > > So when we shift to the question of a "moral code" ? I'd prefer to call it > "moral bond" ? with my > neighbor, I see that morality as a non-objective matter of trust. I trust > my neighbor not to burn my > house down (1) because I will not burn his house down, and (2) because he > has shown no inclination > to burn mine down. It's an act of faith, so long we don't look at "faith" > as believing in miracles, precisely > because there is no "objectivity" to it. If he does burn my house down, > the reality of it ? and I do think > there is a reality to it, the medieval reality of universals ? disappears > in the smoke as if it was never > there in the first place. And what's more important, and what Percy brings > out so forcefully with Lancelot > and his wife, is not only that I can no longer trust him or her ? that's > obvious ? it's that I can no longer > trust myself as a judge of trustworthy persons and the possibility of such > relationships. I probably wouldn't > go to a priest or a psychiatrist myself, but I would certainly need some > kind of confessional confrontation > with myself. > > Anyway, thanks again for pursuing these things with me, > Tom > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:17 AM Michael Larson > wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > Yes, if we are talking about Percy's vision in *Lancelot, *then we cannot > > ignore his Catholicism as a framework for the "reality" the novel > exposes. > > If, on the other hand, we are talking about readers making their own > > meaning, then his Catholicism and even its implications for the > characters > > may be safely ignored. But this brings us back to that same issue of > > objectivity. Readers are free, of course, to make whatever subjective > > meaning they want to make of any piece of literature. But as soon as we > > admit this freedom, there arises, once we begin to see the > interpretations > > rolling in, a kind of hierarchy of subjectivity. That is to say, some > > readers come nearer to understanding the heart of the story than others. > > This is inevitable, and even people who do not admit much in the way of > > objective reality seem to know intuitively that one interpretation of a > > story is better, nearer to the truth, than another. But what do we mean > by > > "the heart of the story"? What do we mean by "the truth" of it? Why do we > > know that one critique comes nearer to it than some other and not as near > > as another? We know it because there is indeed an objective meaning that > > hangs around a story, and we can tell when somebody's notion gets nearer > or > > farther from that meaning, maybe even to the point where the notion is > > simply a private flight of fancy, having nothing at all to do with the > > story in question. So when we admit a hierarchy of subjectivity, we admit > > as well the existence of an objective truth, else the hierarchy of > > subjectivity has no basis against which to be measured. > > > > The same is true for morality. Subjective moral orders do exist, of > > course. But their existence in no way precludes the existence of an > > objective moral order as well. You and I and many others might agree that > > it is morally wrong to burn down a neighbor's house and especially so > when > > the neighbors are inside. We might find a few people who see no moral > > problem with burning down buildings so long as they feel sufficiently > > angry, but most people would agree that arson in general is wrong. That > > popular agreement, however, is not what makes it objectively true. > Popular > > agreement about a moral issue is merely, as you say, intersubjectivity. > But > > reality is not a democracy. It cares not what the prevailing subjective > > opinion happens to be at a given moment and in a given place. Either > there > > is something objectively wrong with arson, or there is not. Either there > is > > an objective moral law that precludes malice against one's neighbor, or > > there is not. Whether or not an individual believes in the existence of > > such a moral order has no bearing on whether or not it exists. > > > > Lancelot provides a good example of the coexistence of subjective and > > objective morality. He has designed his own subjective moral code, and he > > believes it to be "right," which implies that he believes it to coincide > > with an objective moral order. He even says that he will give Percival's > > God some time to act in accordance with his perceptions (256). Percival, > on > > the other hand, has adopted (or readopted, perhaps, after listening to > > Lancelot's chilling tale) the moral order proclaimed by the Catholic > > church. You could say, of course, that the Church's moral theology is > just > > another subjective moral order, and that would be true in the sense that > it > > is articulated by a particular body. But its subjectivity in no way > > prohibits it from aligning with the objective moral order as well. The > same > > is true for Lance's morality. The fact that it is subjectively his does > not > > in itself preclude it from aligning with reality as regards the true > nature > > of things in their moral context. Lance's read on God's world is like a > > reader's interpretation of Percy's *Lancelot*. It may be close or far or > > somewhere in between with regard to the reality of the thing being > observed. > > > > Though Lancelot and the Church (via Percival) do not agree exactly on > what > > the objective moral law entails, they both believe it exists. The modern > > world, however, does not. That final conversation on the final page of > the > > book: "But you know this! One of us is wrong. It will be your way or it > > will be my way." *Yes.* "All we can agree on is that it will not be their > > way. Out there." *Yes.* "There is no other way than yours or mine, true?" > > *Yes*. > > > > Lance is asserting, and Percival is agreeing, that there is a "right" way > > and that the modern world is not on it. The world's new motto is, "IF IT > > FEELS GOOD DO IT" (255). The whole idea of an objective moral order has > > been rejected, and the cascading consequences for that are described in > > great detail in the pages of the novel. Although both men (Lance and > > Percival) reject the modern mantra, Lance's reaction is characterized by > > anger and disdain (and eventually coldness), whereas Percival's is > > characterized by sorrow mixed with the hope of repentance and its flower, > > redemption. > > > > Best, > > Mike Larson > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/attachments/20200724/f4a66516/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Percy-L mailing list > Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 25 > **************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: