[percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15

Marcus Smith marcus at loyno.edu
Thu Jul 23 11:39:24 EDT 2020


“ if we
accept Percy's Catholicism."

I’m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a
touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues.  We knew Walker and Bunt
and their daughters for 20+ years.  We visited them.  They were guests in
our house.  We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker.  I certainly
“accept” that Walker was a Catholic.  A serious Catholic.  But like all of
us he was (and is) a complex mystery.   I wouldn’t begin to try to invoke
his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play
choices of an LSU football coach.  Also, Percy started out as a
Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing.  He
understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them
through his conversations.  But except for LSU football, I would move
carefully before invoking Percy’s faith for particular doctrinal claims.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM <percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica)
>    2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier)
>    3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500
> From: Steve Petrica <steve.petrica at gmail.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
> Message-ID:
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> wmg at mail.gmail.com>
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>
> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture series
> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South Carolina
> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she
> presents *The
> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts to
> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
>
> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700
> From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier at gmail.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com>
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>
> Mike and David,
>
> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write: "if we
> accept Percy's Catholicism."
> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French
> existentialism, his Catholicism has
> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me.  Although I realize this is his
> calling card with many of his readers,
> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read
> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion.
> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an
> objective moral order," that you used in
> your first message opening this topic.
>
> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon.  It
> can be shared intersubjectively,
> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many over
> such long periods of time that there
> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution" or
> semantically as "objective."  And, in fact,
> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective mass by
> aggressively proselytizing itself
> around the world.  But in an essentially important way, a moral order
> remains subjective phenomenon
> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance.  A moral order
> can only gain intersubjectivity by
> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own.
>
> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others, with
> whatever personal quirks they
> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they
> implement it in their own interactions
> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at the
> end of the novel. He is going
> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own
> interactions with others. He hopes, even
> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't change
> anything about what he intends
> to do.  His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his objective
> interactions with others is what is
> needed to get released and to find absolution.
>
> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I don't
> know how many pages of
> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the
> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar
> resolution and absolution in the course of
> the novel.  For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic moral
> order into action on a local level.
> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the local
> priest could be.  Someone knowing
> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when you
> were lost.  You could lay out what
> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you are, and
> the priest could give
> you absolution, a restart back on the right path.  By "going native"
> Percival would be making his moral order
> existentially objective as well.
>
> And then there was Anna?  She was communicating again and was being
> released too.
>
> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not just
> those to priests and psychiatrists,
> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such as
> that.  They all demand contrition
> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very different
> standards as to what produces or
> qualifies for that absolution.  They certainly seem to play a bigger role
> in our lives than I thought before
> reading this novel.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism. People
> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not preclude
> it
> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's
> anticipatory
> > perceptions of it.
> >
> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left unpretentiously
> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is then
> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all pretensions
> have
> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective
> notion--one
> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you were
> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell could be
> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward the
> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual in
> > question.
> >
> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward God
> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in charge.
> But
> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that Percival has
> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own ideas.
> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but it's
> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
> >
> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific vision.
> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing now
> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is fixed,
> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell him,
> the
> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that Lance's
> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the long
> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon death.
> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
> >
> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume that
> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of
> Percival
> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men feel
> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the dead.
> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer in
> the
> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own) grave,
> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of life,
> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he prays.
> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's fate,
> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
> >
> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been
> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then we
> can
> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to bring
> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At novel's
> end,
> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had to
> > reach in order to find life.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>
> >
> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
> >> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck at iupui.edu>
> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> >>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re:  Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue
> >>         6
> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >>
> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I didn't
> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem to
> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because he
> >> wasn't repentant.
> >>
> >
>
> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival). At
> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts. After
> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice. Then
> he
> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found renewal in
> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is the
> real
> >> protagonist.
> >>
> >
>
> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years. :-
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/stray+over+the+years.+:-?entry=gmail&source=g>
> )
> >>
> >
>
> > Just my two cents.
> >>
> >> -David
> >>
> >> David Beck
> >> Senior Lecturer
> >> English Department
> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202
> >> 317-278-2550
> >>
> >
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> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC)
> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
>         <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>  I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The Moviegoer.
> Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel.
> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it out.I am
> not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with
> malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels. And
> I love his humor.
> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson
> five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life
> that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated soul.?
> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the
> Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from
> our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right
> from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at
> heart.?
> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so aptly
> described the novel.
> Thank you for this.
> Janet Cantor
>     On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica <
> steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture
> series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South
> Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she
> presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our
> attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
>
> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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