[percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 22
Marcus Smith
marcus at loyno.edu
Thu Jul 23 15:15:56 EDT 2020
There used to be a lunch group that Percy regularly attended. We met at a
restaurant In Mandeville. In driving across Lake Ponchartrain on that
deeply Cartesian Causeway, I would sometimes try to think of a “good”
question to ask Percy. I usually felt I knew what he would say. He
invariably surprised me.
This is one reason I cannot use him as a touchstone. Except for LSU
football.
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:21 PM <percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com)
> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19 (Michael Larson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 17:51:59 +0000 (UTC)
> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 at yahoo.com>
> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15
> Message-ID: <1003730763.5228677.1595526719875 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Michael Larson,YES!I agree.Janet Cantor
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 12:43 PM, Lauren Berdy<
> lauren.stacy.berdy at gmail.com> wrote:
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:20:52 -0500
> From: Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com>
> To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 19
> Message-ID:
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> CAMmLp8gmtRYsHPogvSWCkMqKGJan7Dk8CpJtbnrU7vND7XYgBQ at mail.gmail.com>
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> Marcus, Chuck, Lauren:
>
> I'm pretty sure I did not suggest that Percy was a touchstone for any
> particular Catholic doctrine. What I did say, and what I would continue to
> say, is that his Catholicism informs his work. He said so himself over and
> over in the interviews. The label of "Catholic" is one he did not try to
> avoid. And to my knowledge, he never disputed any Catholic teaching on
> faith or morals. If you have a record to the contrary, I would be sincerely
> interested in seeing it. It's true, he did not consider himself an
> evangelist. Why should he? He left that work to the Church. But he did
> consider himself a novelist and a philosopher (of sorts) who had come to
> believe in the Church's authority to carry the message of truth to the
> world. That's why he converted.
>
> Best,
> Mike Larson
>
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:45 AM <percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
> wrote:
>
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15 (Charles Lowry)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:44:27 -0400
> > From: Charles Lowry <lowry.charles at gmail.com>
> > To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15
> > Message-ID: <8B55ABDB-108E-4DFF-BC95-DEE724F30E02 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I did not know Percy, though I was forty-one years old when he died and
> > consider myself a pretty devoted acolyte. I agree with Marcus that Percy
> > ought not to be regarded as a doctrinal touchstone for Catholicism, for
> one
> > very important reason, which is why/how Percy came to Catholicism.
> >
> > There are lots of answers to this why/how question. I am a cradle
> > Catholic; no one in my family can ever remember a time, stretching over
> > multitudes of years and two continents, when we were not all Catholics.
> We
> > were not all virtuous, we were not all observant, but we were all
> > Catholic. That is one way to be Catholic. Converts come to the Church
> for
> > a variety of reasons. Some marry a Catholic and convert for reasons of
> > family unity and peace. Some are attracted by the history of the Church,
> > the continuity, the hospitals, orphanages, universities. Some are
> > intellectual converts, convinced by apologetics and doctrine. Some are
> > sacramental converts, influenced by the encounter which those signs
> > effect.
> >
> > Percy is as different. I am, in this plague year, away from my books and
> > therefore unable to offer exact citations, but Percy was what we might
> call
> > an anthropological convert. He looked at what the Church has learned in
> > two thousand years, at how the Church reflected the reasonable view of
> > humanity, and he latched on. He said once that he was a Catholic not
> > because he agreed with the Church?s views on abortion, but because the
> > Church agreed with his views on abortion. This is a far cry from the
> > ?omnia et singula? Catholicism of the cradle Catholic or the apologetics
> > Catholic. I am not suggesting that Percy had no feelings for the Church
> or
> > for Catholic tradition?he once took Shelby Foote to a Solemn High Mass
> with
> > Gregorian Chant and incense?but that he was much more likely, as Marcus
> > seems to hint, to filter the Church?s perspective through his own than
> vice
> > versa.
> >
> > Chuck Lowry
> > Brooklyn, New York
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Jul 23, 2020, at 11:40 AM, Marcus Smith <marcus at loyno.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > ?
> > > ? if we
> > > accept Percy's Catholicism."
> > >
> > > I?m sort of uneasy with the (frequent) efforts to invoke Percy as a
> > touchstone for various Catholic doctrinal issues. We knew Walker and
> Bunt
> > and their daughters for 20+ years. We visited them. They were guests in
> > our house. We went to some semiotic conferences with Walker. I
> certainly
> > ?accept? that Walker was a Catholic. A serious Catholic. But like all
> of
> > us he was (and is) a complex mystery. I wouldn?t begin to try to invoke
> > his faith to support any particular doctrines, unless it is the play
> > choices of an LSU football coach. Also, Percy started out as a
> > Presbyterian (I think) as well as traversing a period of non-believing.
> He
> > understood all these languages and dialects and could and did run them
> > through his conversations. But except for LSU football, I would move
> > carefully before invoking Percy?s faith for particular doctrinal claims.
> > >
> > >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:48 PM <percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > wrote:
> > >> Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to
> > >> percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org
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> > >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > >>
> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >> than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Today's Topics:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Happiness and the Meaning of Life (Steve Petrica)
> > >> 2. Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9 (Thomas Gollier)
> > >> 3. Re: Happiness and the Meaning of Life (janetcantor37 at yahoo.com)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 1
> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:35:58 -0500
> > >> From: Steve Petrica <steve.petrica at gmail.com>
> > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >> <CACFVBi79jvQBtsr97Ty-9AdNBhx0gqx_8KE6i4FcUTCgkb=
> > wmg at mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture
> > series
> > >> on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South
> Carolina
> > >> philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series, she
> > >> presents *The
> > >> Moviegoer* as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our attempts
> to
> > >> relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
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> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 2
> > >> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:45:55 -0700
> > >> From: Thomas Gollier <tgollier at gmail.com>
> > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 9
> > >> Message-ID:
> > >> <
> > CAMVPF1EQ46kOZP7RQaAWAF46fbx1DDzKWjz_2Gs0PTnEDRXGxQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> Mike and David,
> > >>
> > >> Mike, you seem to have zeroed in on the crux of this when you write:
> > "if we
> > >> accept Percy's Catholicism."
> > >> For coming to Percy via his interest in Peirce's' semiotic and French
> > >> existentialism, his Catholicism has
> > >> been an ongoing fly in the ointment for me. Although I realize this
> is
> > his
> > >> calling card with many of his readers,
> > >> it just doesn't seem to fit philosophically, at least until I read
> > >> 'Lancelot' and embroiled myself in this discussion.
> > >> Perhaps I can clarify what I mean by back to a phrase, "belief in an
> > >> objective moral order," that you used in
> > >> your first message opening this topic.
> > >>
> > >> A moral order, it seems to me, is an inherently subjective phenomenon.
> > It
> > >> can be shared intersubjectively,
> > >> take on various objective trappings, and be even shared by so many
> over
> > >> such long periods of time that there
> > >> is some justification for referring to it legally as an "institution"
> or
> > >> semantically as "objective." And, in fact,
> > >> Catholicism has historically sought to increase its intersubjective
> > mass by
> > >> aggressively proselytizing itself
> > >> around the world. But in an essentially important way, a moral order
> > >> remains subjective phenomenon
> > >> regardless of the extent of its intersubjective acceptance. A moral
> > order
> > >> can only gain intersubjectivity by
> > >> being accepted and internalized by individual subjects as their own.
> > >>
> > >> A moral order that a person has inherited or internalized from others,
> > with
> > >> whatever personal quirks they
> > >> may have added to it, doesn't become an "objective reality" until they
> > >> implement it in their own interactions
> > >> with others. And, this seems to be what Lancelot has resolved to do at
> > the
> > >> end of the novel. He is going
> > >> to personally implement his moral order, such as it is, in his own
> > >> interactions with others. He hopes, even
> > >> assumes, many others agree with him, but if they don't that won't
> change
> > >> anything about what he intends
> > >> to do. His resolution to make his moral order the basis of his
> > objective
> > >> interactions with others is what is
> > >> needed to get released and to find absolution.
> > >>
> > >> And David, I have to admit I was startled when, after going through I
> > don't
> > >> know how many pages of
> > >> Lancelot's "confession," I read you writing: "It seems to me the
> > >> "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
> > >> But after mulling it over, Percival does seem to get to a similar
> > >> resolution and absolution in the course of
> > >> the novel. For he resolves to put his own more traditional Catholic
> > moral
> > >> order into action on a local level.
> > >> I'm just kind of getting an inkling of what a powerful figure the
> local
> > >> priest could be. Someone knowing
> > >> everyone and their histories in the village that you could go to when
> > you
> > >> were lost. You could lay out what
> > >> was wrong, maybe where we went wrong, how and why we got where you
> are,
> > and
> > >> the priest could give
> > >> you absolution, a restart back on the right path. By "going native"
> > >> Percival would be making his moral order
> > >> existentially objective as well.
> > >>
> > >> And then there was Anna? She was communicating again and was being
> > >> released too.
> > >>
> > >> In fact, Percy has got me thinking at all kinds of confessions ? not
> > just
> > >> those to priests and psychiatrists,
> > >> but also those made to parole boards, alcoholics anonymous, and such
> as
> > >> that. They all demand contrition
> > >> and they all provide absolution, but they all seem to have very
> > different
> > >> standards as to what produces or
> > >> qualifies for that absolution. They certainly seem to play a bigger
> > role
> > >> in our lives than I thought before
> > >> reading this novel.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Tom
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:09 AM Michael Larson <larsonovic at gmail.com
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Tom,
> > >> >
> > >> > I think the postulation that Lancelot and Percival are both in the
> > >> > afterlife is viable (and as I mentioned, intriguing), but it is less
> > >> > hopeful for Lancelot, at least if we accept Percy's Catholicism.
> > People
> > >> > have different ideas about heaven, it's true, but that does not
> > preclude it
> > >> > from being a real place that exists quite apart from people's
> > anticipatory
> > >> > perceptions of it.
> > >> >
> > >> > You propose that heaven (or hell) is simply a person left
> > unpretentiously
> > >> > with himself. What makes it one or the other--heaven or hell--is
> then
> > >> > presumably how one feels about one's real self, after all
> pretensions
> > have
> > >> > been stripped away. This is, of course, an entirely subjective
> > notion--one
> > >> > person's heaven might be another's hell (which is maybe what you
> were
> > >> > getting at with "pick your poison"), and neither heaven nor hell
> > could be
> > >> > communal, nor would either represent any particular posture toward
> the
> > >> > divine, as the perimeter of each state is confined to the individual
> > in
> > >> > question.
> > >> >
> > >> > But Lancelot is describing something objective (a created world) and
> > >> > communal (how society ought to be) and with a certain posture toward
> > God
> > >> > (in Lance's case, anger followed by disillusionment). It might be a
> > >> > description of how he would make heaven on earth if he were in
> > charge. But
> > >> > he is also aware that Percival does not align with him, that
> Percival
> > has
> > >> > attached himself to something that transcends himself and his own
> > ideas.
> > >> > And Lance is open-minded enough to acknowledge the possibility that
> > >> > Percival may even be right. i.e. "It's my way or it's your way, but
> > it's
> > >> > not their way." And Percival agrees, "Yes."
> > >> >
> > >> > So where does that leave them? In Catholic teaching, purgatory is a
> > >> > refining fire set aside for those who die in a state of grace (no
> > >> > unrepentant mortal sin), a final purification before the beatific
> > vision.
> > >> > But if Lance is dead, he has not died in a state of grace. "... no
> > >> > confession forthcoming, Father, as you well know ... I feel nothing
> > now
> > >> > except a certain coldness" (253). If he is dead, Lance's state is
> > fixed,
> > >> > according to Catholic teaching, and the thing Percival has to tell
> > him, the
> > >> > thing that gives his gaze upon Lance such sadness (254) is that
> > Lance's
> > >> > release from prison is a release into hell. The prison itself, the
> > long
> > >> > recounting of his crime, has been his particular examination, upon
> > death.
> > >> > And now the judgment of his chosen state lies before him. Yes, a new
> > >> > beginning of sorts but not a happy one.
> > >> >
> > >> > In this interpretation, though, I think there is no reason to assume
> > that
> > >> > Percival died with Lance in the explosion. The strange silence of
> > Percival
> > >> > over the course of the novel makes the encounter between the two men
> > feel
> > >> > more like there is a kind of barrier, as between the living and the
> > dead.
> > >> > We might even theorize that Lance's witnessing of Percival's prayer
> > in the
> > >> > cemetery (254) is actually taking place at his own (Lance's own)
> > grave,
> > >> > that Percival's prayer for the dead is for Lance. On the side of
> life,
> > >> > Percival cannot know the state of Lance's soul, so in charity, he
> > prays.
> > >> > But at the final meeting of the novel, he does seem to know Lance's
> > fate,
> > >> > and further maybe even to have been given the task of telling Lance.
> > >> >
> > >> > On the other hand, if neither man has died and Lance has truly been
> > >> > telling his story from a prison/hospital in the temporal realm, then
> > we can
> > >> > speculate that the post-novel words of Percival may indeed begin to
> > bring
> > >> > Lance toward sorrow and repentance, followed by redemption. At
> > novel's end,
> > >> > he feels nothing but coldness. Perhaps that is the very nadir he had
> > to
> > >> > reach in order to find life.
> > >> >
> > >> > Mike
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:04:28 +0000
> > >> >> From: "Beck, David A" <dabeck at iupui.edu>
> > >> >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >> >> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] [External] Re: Percy-L Digest, Vol 161,
> Issue
> > >> >> 6
> > >> >> Message-ID: <1595009067780.10724 at iupui.edu>
> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'm not sure we can go as far as saying Lance found redemption. I
> > didn't
> > >> >> see any evidence of that. He makes his confession but doesn't seem
> to
> > >> >> bothered by what he has done. He didn't receive absolution, because
> > he
> > >> >> wasn't repentant.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > It seems to me the "transformation" is that of Fr. John (Percival).
> At
> > >> >> first, he is troubled, abstracted, and seems to be having doubts.
> > After
> > >> >> hearing Lance's ravings, he realizes that he has to make a choice.
> > Then he
> > >> >> returns wearing his clerical "outfit" and seems to have found
> > renewal in
> > >> >> his faith. I read somewhere (did Percy say it?) that Fr. John is
> the
> > real
> > >> >> protagonist.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > If I'm wrong, I've led many a college student astray over the years.
> > :-)
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > Just my two cents.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -David
> > >> >>
> > >> >> David Beck
> > >> >> Senior Lecturer
> > >> >> English Department
> > >> >> Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis
> > >> >> 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E
> > >> >> Indianapolis, IN 46202
> > >> >> 317-278-2550
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> -------------- next part --------------
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> > >
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Message: 3
> > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC)
> > >> From: "janetcantor37 at yahoo.com" <janetcantor37 at yahoo.com>
> > >> To: "Percy-L: Literary and Philosophical Discussion"
> > >> <percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [percy-l] Happiness and the Meaning of Life
> > >> Message-ID: <213691927.4924047.1595468887490 at mail.yahoo.com>
> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >>
> > >> I must confess I only listened to the fifth lesson about The
> > Moviegoer. Professor Frey was exquisite in her reading of the novel.
> > >> I have always wondered why I love Percy and have never figured it
> out.I
> > am not Catholic, Southern, able to understand philosophy, or filled with
> > malaise. ?Yet there is something speaking directly to me in his novels.
> And
> > I love his humor.
> > >> The only thing in this whole presentation that gave me pause in lesson
> > five is the way Binx's aunt is described. To me she is one aspect of life
> > that must make up the whole of a person for him to be an integrated
> soul.?
> > >> So many who read Percy, particularly those who are attracted to the
> > Christian side of him, dismiss his aunt. I did not. Conscience comes from
> > our not wanting to?often G-d, yes, but it also comes from knowing right
> > from wrong and not wanting to offend those who have our best?interests at
> > heart.?
> > >> I was astounded by the beautiful way the professor's words?here so
> > aptly described the novel.
> > >> Thank you for this.
> > >> Janet Cantor
> > >> On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 08:36:49 PM EDT, Steve Petrica <
> > steve.petrica at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Bishop Barron's Word on Fire Institute has been streaming a lecture
> > series on "Happiness and the Meaning of Life," by University of South
> > Carolina philosophy professor Jennifer Frey. In lesson 5 of the series,
> she
> > presents The Moviegoer as a "perceptive diagnosis of our malaise and our
> > attempts to relieve our deep sadness with countless distractions."
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://wordonfire.institute/sin-self-knowledge-and-the-search-for-meaning
> > >> ----------------------------------
> > >> * Percy-L Discussion Archives:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/
> > >>
> > >> * Manage Your Membership:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > >>
> > >> * Contact the Moderator: percy-l-owner (at) lists.ibiblio.org
> > >>
> > >> * Visit The Walker Percy Project: http://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy
> > >>
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> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Subject: Digest Footer
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Percy-L mailing list
> > >> Percy-L at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> End of Percy-L Digest, Vol 161, Issue 15
> > >> ****************************************
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------
> > > * Percy-L Discussion Archives:
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> > >
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