From wppdirector at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 13:55:52 2023 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry P. Mills) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 13:55:52 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artifical intelligence ChatGPT) Message-ID: Dear Percy-L, For community enjoyment, this Percy-L post will address the age-old question of "Is Walker Percy a Southern writer?". But with a new twist?. We will address the question by using the recently-made available artificial intelligence tool called ?ChatGPT.?* As we use this new tool to provide an answer, members are invited to respond to this unique AI challenge. Was ChatGPT successful? At the bottom of this email are several questions for further Percy-L discussion. Enjoy! Henry P. Mills Director, The Walker Percy Project ---------- *More Details About ChatGPT (If Desired): Released online in November 2022, ChatGPT is being discussed in worldwide news for how the AI tool will soon radically change the nature of research, writing, and information access on the Internet (via its ?natural language processing? capabilities). See the ChatGPT website: . For a readable overview about ChatGPT and its anticipated effects on society, see: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/why-everyones-obsessed-with-the-mind-blowing-chatgpt-ai-chatbot/ ------------------------- A. THE CHATGPT WALKER PERCY CHALLENGE ? "IS WALKER PERCY A SOUTHERN WRITER?" Submitted Query to ChatGPT: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? Results From ChatGPT (Verbatim): "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature. Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern. Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include: "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world. Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." ------------------------- B. QUESTIONS FOR PERCY-L DISCUSSION (or any other related question) 1. Did ChatGPT provide a useful response to the question? 2. Does it provide sufficient information to back up its response? Bear in mind that all of its information is pulled randomly from the Internet. 3. What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of language aggregation to form random information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI? 4. Other related thoughts? ChatGPT Query date: 2/4/2023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 21:31:27 2023 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2023 18:31:27 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artifical intelligence ChatGPT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry, I have to make a quick answer to question 3, just because I think ChatGPT is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along. It proves we can coherently express all we think we know, what is statistically legitimate to say about anything, without any reference whatsoever to the existing things themselves. ChapGPT is a smug "everydayness," a system of predicates that statistically covers pretty much the whole domain of our generally accepted uses of those predicates. I really find the machine amazing, and an incredible place to begin, especially if you follow it up with questions, especially with the examples it gives, to dig into anything vague or ambiguous in its responses. Eventually, if this leads to a real contradiction, it will simply restate a version of its starting point. Unlike us, the Kantian thing-in-itself is truly inaccessible to it. When the expected predicates fail us, we can still go out, kick the thing itself, and see what happens. Anyway, I'm anxious to see the responses to your message. Thanks, Tom On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 10:56 AM Henry P. Mills wrote: > Dear Percy-L, > > For community enjoyment, this Percy-L post will address the age-old > question of "Is Walker Percy a Southern writer?". But with a *new* twist?. > > We will address the question by using the recently-made > available artificial intelligence tool called ?ChatGPT.?* As we use this > new tool to provide an answer, members are invited to respond to this > unique AI challenge. Was ChatGPT successful? At the bottom of this email > are several questions for further Percy-L discussion. > > Enjoy! > Henry P. Mills > Director, The Walker Percy Project > > ---------- > **More Details About ChatGPT (If Desired)*: Released online in November > 2022, ChatGPT is being discussed in worldwide news for how the AI tool > will soon radically change the nature of research, writing, and > information access on the Internet (via its ?natural language processing? > capabilities). See the ChatGPT website: . For > a readable overview about ChatGPT and its anticipated effects on society, > see: > > https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/why-everyones-obsessed-with-the-mind-blowing-chatgpt-ai-chatbot/ > > > ------------------------- > *A. THE CHATGPT WALKER PERCY CHALLENGE ? "IS WALKER PERCY A SOUTHERN > WRITER?"* > > *Submitted Query to ChatGPT: * > "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he > is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? > > *Results From ChatGPT (Verbatim):* > "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: > > > 1. Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including > Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, > and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the > essence of the region. > 2. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the > South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of > identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. > 3. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, > and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often > associated with Southern literature. > > > Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: > > > 1. Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South > and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues > such as the search for meaning and the human condition. > 2. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers > such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that > his writing is not distinctively Southern. > > > Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity > include: > > > 1. "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life > of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. > 2. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who > is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the > South. > 3. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel > explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a > rapidly changing world. > > > Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a > Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him > to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." > > > ------------------------- > *B. QUESTIONS FOR PERCY-L DISCUSSION * > *(or any other related question)* > > 1. Did ChatGPT provide a useful response to the question? > > 2. Does it provide sufficient information to back up its response? Bear in > mind that all of its information is pulled randomly from the Internet. > > 3. What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of language > aggregation to form random information? Any existential ramifications come > to mind from this new form of AI? > > 4. Other related thoughts? > > > > > ChatGPT Query date: 2/4/2023 > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > USING PERCY-L > * Read Percy-L Charter and Policies: > https://ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/charter-policies.html > * Manage Your Membership: > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > * Submit a Post to Percy-L: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > * Contact the Listserv Manager: percy.listserv.manager at gmail.com > > LISTSERV ARCHIVES > * View Percy-L Discussion Archives: > https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > * Search Percy-L Discussion Archives: > https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/how-to-search-archives.html > > THE WALKER PERCY PROJECT > * Visit The Walker Percy Project website: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 09:05:01 2023 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry P. Mills) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 09:05:01 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artifical intelligence ChatGPT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5363B327-BD36-4264-BC14-A828714D4253@gmail.com> Dear Percy-L Community: This post is a follow-up to the question posed last week of "Is Walker Percy a Southern Writer??. In particular, that post addressed the quality of one response provided by artificial intelligence as given by the recently-released web-based AI tool ChatGPT. To clarify and expand by adding a Percy quote, below are (1) what Percy said of himself in an interview from 1989 in response to the question at hand, and (2) the output of the ChatGPT AI system in response. Questions for member response: --Any comments about the AI-generated results, or the question in general? --Would artificial intelligence be a topic Percy would address in his writings--novels or otherwise--if he were alive today? (I think of LiR's lapsometer, or TS?s heavy sodium.) (Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer to these questions.) Regards, Henry Mills PS-Thanks, Tom, for your response last week. Without our straying too far from the question of whether Percy is a "Southern writer" as answered by him or by AI, I wonder if you could give explanation about why you state that ?ChatGPT [artificial intelligence] is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along??.*** --------------- PERCY?S VS. AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE RESPONSE (1) Percy interview response*: --Percy said in one interview about whether he considers himself a ?Southern writer? the year before he died with: "I don't like to be described as a Southern writer?.The danger is, if you're described as a Southern writer, you might be thought of as someone who writes about a picturesque local scene like Uncle Tom's Cabin, Gone With the Wind, something like that....? (1989 interview from More Conversations, 223). (2) Artificial Intelligence response**: --Submitted Query to ChatGPT: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? --Results from ChatGPT (Verbatim): "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature. Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern. Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include: "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world. Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." ------------ SOURCES: *"Walker Percy and Southern Literature,? online essay, Veronica Makowsky (2016) https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/essays/makowsky.html Makowsky adds, "Percy frequently attempted to evade the danger of being labeled a 'Southern writer' by stressing the more existentialist aspects of his work, but his fiction nonetheless remains very much a part of the Southern literary heritage?.? **ChatGPT https://chat.openai.com/chat Query: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? ***Percy-L post, Tom Gollier (Feb. 4): ?Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artificial intelligence ChatGPT)" https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/2023-February/002585.html > On Feb 4, 2023, at 9:31 PM, Thomas Gollier wrote: > > Henry, > > I have to make a quick answer to question 3, > "What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of random language aggregation to form information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI?" > I myself think ChatGPT is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along. It proves we can coherently express all we think we know, what is statistically legitimate to say about anything, without any reference whatsoever to the existing things themselves. ChapGPT is a smug "everydayness," a system of predicates that statistically covers pretty much the whole domain of our generally accepted uses of those predicates. > > I really find the machine amazing, and an incredible place to begin, especially if you follow it up with questions, especially with the examples it gives, to dig into anything vague or ambiguous in its responses. Eventually, if this leads to a real contradiction, it will simply restate a version of its starting point. Unlike us, the Kantian thing-in-itself is truly inaccessible to it. When the expected predicates fail us, we can still go out, kick the thing itself, and see what happens. > > Anyway, I'm anxious to see the responses to your message. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 10:56 AM Henry P. Mills > wrote: >> Dear Percy-L, >> >> For community enjoyment, this Percy-L post will address the age-old question of "Is Walker Percy a Southern writer?". But with a new twist?. >> >> We will address the question by using the recently-made available artificial intelligence tool called ?ChatGPT.?* As we use this new tool to provide an answer, members are invited to respond to this unique AI challenge. Was ChatGPT successful? At the bottom of this email are several questions for further Percy-L discussion. >> >> Enjoy! >> Henry P. Mills >> Director, The Walker Percy Project >> >> ---------- >> *More Details About ChatGPT (If Desired): Released online in November 2022, ChatGPT is being discussed in worldwide news for how the AI tool will soon radically change the nature of research, writing, and information access on the Internet (via its ?natural language processing? capabilities). See the ChatGPT website: . For a readable overview about ChatGPT and its anticipated effects on society, see: >> https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/why-everyones-obsessed-with-the-mind-blowing-chatgpt-ai-chatbot/ >> >> >> ------------------------- >> A. THE CHATGPT WALKER PERCY CHALLENGE ? "IS WALKER PERCY A SOUTHERN WRITER?" >> >> Submitted Query to ChatGPT: >> "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? >> >> Results From ChatGPT (Verbatim): >> "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: >> >> Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region. >> Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. >> Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature. >> >> Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: >> >> Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition. >> Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern. >> >> Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include: >> >> "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. >> "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South. >> "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world. >> >> Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." >> >> >> ------------------------- >> B. QUESTIONS FOR PERCY-L DISCUSSION >> (or any other related question) >> >> 1. Did ChatGPT provide a useful response to the question? >> >> 2. Does it provide sufficient information to back up its response? Bear in mind that all of its information is pulled randomly from the Internet. >> >> 3. What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of language aggregation to form random information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI? >> >> 4. Other related thoughts? >> >> >> >> >> ChatGPT Query date: 2/4/2023 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tgollier at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 12:17:50 2023 From: tgollier at gmail.com (Thomas Gollier) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 09:17:50 -0800 Subject: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? FOR TOM GOLLIER (OFF LIST) In-Reply-To: References: <5363B327-BD36-4264-BC14-A828714D4253@gmail.com> Message-ID: Henry, Thanks for forwarding my last message to the list. I was wondering what happened. As to what Percy was "getting at" I look at it in the same vein as what the "movies are onto" before they screw it up. It is the everydayness of our knowledge, all of the generally accepted things we can say about things. And where hopefully there was some direct acquaintance with the things themselves involved in our own knowledge as to what we can say about things, with ChatGPT there is virtually none. It simply learns and statistically assesses what has been said about things in its training texts. It is the epitome of what goes wrong with our use of symbols when they zip around increasingly oblivious to the actual things they are ostensibly talking about. All the objections I've been seeing to ChapGPT ? can be wrong, no documentation, etc. ? are things the program could easily be made to produce (if it were at all economically feasible). Train it on better texts, program in the sources, etc., and it would be a match, if not better, for most, if not all, the purveyors of knowledge today. After all, we go to school primarily to learn how to talk about things. What Percy, at least for me, seems to be getting at is that all this learning what can be said about something, these "vertical searches," are missing and obscuring something essential about why and how we use symbols in the first place. In short, ChatGPT passes the Turing test with flying colors. So what's it missing? What exactly is peculiar to the human use of symbols? Can we even figure it out at this point? Thanks, Tom On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 6:12 AM Henry P. Mills wrote: > Tom, > > Please note I ask you a question directly in the PS of this post I have > just now sent through the listserv. Could you clarify through a response to > the community what you mean when you say, "I myself think ChatGPT is what Walker > Percy was trying to get at all along?? What was he ?trying to get at?? > > Best wishes and thanks for your post! > Henry > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *"Henry P. Mills" > *Subject: **Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (**according > to* > > * artificial** intelligence ChatGPT)* > > *Date: *February 11, 2023 at 9:05:01 AM EST > *To: *Percy-L > > Dear Percy-L Community: > > This post is a follow-up to the question posed last week of "Is Walker > Percy a Southern Writer??. In particular, that post addressed the quality > of one response provided by artificial intelligence as given by the > recently-released web-based AI tool ChatGPT. > > To clarify and expand by adding a Percy quote, below are (1) what Percy > said of himself in an interview from 1989 in response to the question at > hand, and (2) the output of the ChatGPT AI system in response. > > Questions for member response: > --Any comments about the AI-generated results, or the question in general? > --Would artificial intelligence be a topic Percy would address in his > writings--novels or otherwise--if he were alive today? (I think of LiR's > lapsometer, or TS?s heavy sodium.) > (Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer to these questions.) > > Regards, > Henry Mills > > > PS-Thanks, Tom, for your response last week. Without our straying too far > from the question of whether Percy is a "Southern writer" as answered by > him or by AI, I wonder if you could give explanation about why you state > that ?ChatGPT [artificial intelligence] is proof positive of what Walker > Percy was trying to get at all along??.*** > > > --------------- > PERCY?S VS. AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE RESPONSE > > *(1) Percy interview response*: * > > --Percy said in one interview about whether he considers himself a > ?Southern writer? the year before he died with: > > "I don't like to be described as a Southern writer?.The danger is, if > you're described as a Southern writer, you might be thought of as someone > who writes about a picturesque local scene like *Uncle Tom's Cabin*, *Gone > With the Wind*, something like that....? (1989 interview from *More > Conversations*, 223). > > > > *(2) Artificial Intelligence response****:* > > --Submitted Query to ChatGPT: > "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he > is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? > > --Results from ChatGPT (Verbatim): > "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: > > > 1. Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including > Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, > and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the > essence of the region. > 2. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the > South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of > identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. > 3. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, > and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often > associated with Southern literature. > > > Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: > > > 1. Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South > and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues > such as the search for meaning and the human condition. > 2. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers > such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that > his writing is not distinctively Southern. > > > Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity > include: > > > 1. "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life > of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. > 2. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who > is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the > South. > 3. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel > explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a > rapidly changing world. > > > Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a > Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him > to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." > > > > > ------------ > SOURCES: > *"Walker Percy and Southern Literature,? online essay, Veronica Makowsky > (2016) > https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/essays/makowsky.html > Makowsky adds, "Percy frequently attempted to evade the danger of being > labeled a 'Southern writer' by stressing the more existentialist aspects of > his work, but his fiction nonetheless remains very much a part of the > Southern literary heritage?.? > > **ChatGPT > https://chat.openai.com/chat > Query: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons > why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? > > ***Percy-L post, Tom Gollier (Feb. 4): > ?Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according > to artificial intelligence ChatGPT)" > https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/2023-February/002585.html > > > > > On Feb 4, 2023, at 9:31 PM, Thomas Gollier wrote: > > Henry, > > I have to make a quick answer to question 3, > > "What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of random > language aggregation to form information? Any existential ramifications > come to mind from this new form of AI?" > > > I myself think ChatGPT is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying > to get at all along. It proves we can coherently express all we think we > know, what is statistically legitimate to say about anything, without any > reference whatsoever to the existing things themselves. ChapGPT is a smug > "everydayness," a system of predicates that statistically covers pretty > much the whole domain of our generally accepted uses of those predicates. > > > I really find the machine amazing, and an incredible place to begin, > especially if you follow it up with questions, especially with the examples > it gives, to dig into anything vague or ambiguous in its responses. > Eventually, if this leads to a real contradiction, it will simply restate a > version of its starting point. Unlike us, the Kantian thing-in-itself is > truly inaccessible to it. When the expected predicates fail us, we can > still go out, kick the thing itself, and see what happens. > > Anyway, I'm anxious to see the responses to your message. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 10:56 AM Henry P. Mills > wrote: > >> Dear Percy-L, >> >> For community enjoyment, this Percy-L post will address the age-old >> question of "Is Walker Percy a Southern writer?". But with a *new* >> twist?. >> >> We will address the question by using the recently-made >> available artificial intelligence tool called ?ChatGPT.?* As we use this >> new tool to provide an answer, members are invited to respond to this >> unique AI challenge. Was ChatGPT successful? At the bottom of this >> email are several questions for further Percy-L discussion. >> >> Enjoy! >> Henry P. Mills >> Director, The Walker Percy Project >> >> ---------- >> **More Details About ChatGPT (If Desired)*: Released online in November >> 2022, ChatGPT is being discussed in worldwide news for how the AI tool >> will soon radically change the nature of research, writing, and >> information access on the Internet (via its ?natural language processing? >> capabilities). See the ChatGPT website: . For >> a readable overview about ChatGPT and its anticipated effects on society, >> see: >> >> https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/why-everyones-obsessed-with-the-mind-blowing-chatgpt-ai-chatbot/ >> >> >> ------------------------- >> *A. THE CHATGPT WALKER PERCY CHALLENGE ? "IS WALKER PERCY A SOUTHERN >> WRITER?"* >> >> *Submitted Query to ChatGPT: * >> "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why >> he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? >> >> *Results From ChatGPT (Verbatim):* >> "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: >> >> >> 1. Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including >> Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, >> and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the >> essence of the region. >> 2. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to >> the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense >> of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. >> 3. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern >> Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is >> often associated with Southern literature. >> >> >> Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: >> >> >> 1. Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South >> and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues >> such as the search for meaning and the human condition. >> 2. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers >> such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that >> his writing is not distinctively Southern. >> >> >> Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity >> include: >> >> >> 1. "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life >> of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. >> 2. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who >> is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the >> South. >> 3. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel >> explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a >> rapidly changing world. >> >> >> Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a >> Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him >> to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." >> >> >> ------------------------- >> *B. QUESTIONS FOR PERCY-L DISCUSSION * >> *(or any other related question)* >> >> 1. Did ChatGPT provide a useful response to the question? >> >> 2. Does it provide sufficient information to back up its response? Bear >> in mind that all of its information is pulled randomly from the Internet. >> >> 3. What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of >> language aggregation to form random information? Any existential >> ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI? >> >> 4. Other related thoughts? >> >> >> >> >> ChatGPT Query date: 2/4/2023 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From welewis at wisc.edu Sat Feb 11 13:11:46 2023 From: welewis at wisc.edu (WILLIAM E LEWIS) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2023 18:11:46 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? FOR TOM GOLLIER (OFF LIST) In-Reply-To: References: <5363B327-BD36-4264-BC14-A828714D4253@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tom, I think you nailed it with this observation: "It simply learns and statistically assesses what has been said about things in its training texts. It is the epitome of what goes wrong with our use of symbols when they zip around increasingly oblivious to the actual things they are ostensibly talking about." I tend to think that what the AI/ML tool (ChatGPT in this case) does is use a very large number of dyadic operations to achieve the illusion of a triad. It responds to a very complex signal (that can be decomposed into simpler signals, etc) via the same stimulus/response mechanism that causes a dog to come when his/her name is called. That's not to say that the illusion isn't powerful. It is. And it (and others) will likely only get increasingly "lifelike" in the future, ushering in an age of hyperreal nightmares that we're only beginning to appreciate the dimension of. cheers, Will ________________________________ From: Percy-L on behalf of Thomas Gollier Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2023 11:17 AM To: Henry P. Mills Cc: Percy List Subject: Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? FOR TOM GOLLIER (OFF LIST) Henry, Thanks for forwarding my last message to the list. I was wondering what happened. As to what Percy was "getting at" I look at it in the same vein as what the "movies are onto" before they screw it up. It is the everydayness of our knowledge, all of the generally accepted things we can say about things. And where hopefully there was some direct acquaintance with the things themselves involved in our own knowledge as to what we can say about things, with ChatGPT there is virtually none. It simply learns and statistically assesses what has been said about things in its training texts. It is the epitome of what goes wrong with our use of symbols when they zip around increasingly oblivious to the actual things they are ostensibly talking about. All the objections I've been seeing to ChapGPT ? can be wrong, no documentation, etc. ? are things the program could easily be made to produce (if it were at all economically feasible). Train it on better texts, program in the sources, etc., and it would be a match, if not better, for most, if not all, the purveyors of knowledge today. After all, we go to school primarily to learn how to talk about things. What Percy, at least for me, seems to be getting at is that all this learning what can be said about something, these "vertical searches," are missing and obscuring something essential about why and how we use symbols in the first place. In short, ChatGPT passes the Turing test with flying colors. So what's it missing? What exactly is peculiar to the human use of symbols? Can we even figure it out at this point? Thanks, Tom On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 6:12 AM Henry P. Mills > wrote: Tom, Please note I ask you a question directly in the PS of this post I have just now sent through the listserv. Could you clarify through a response to the community what you mean when you say, "I myself think ChatGPT is what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along?? What was he ?trying to get at?? Best wishes and thanks for your post! Henry Begin forwarded message: From: "Henry P. Mills" > Subject: Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artificial intelligence ChatGPT) Date: February 11, 2023 at 9:05:01 AM EST To: Percy-L > Dear Percy-L Community: This post is a follow-up to the question posed last week of "Is Walker Percy a Southern Writer??. In particular, that post addressed the quality of one response provided by artificial intelligence as given by the recently-released web-based AI tool ChatGPT. To clarify and expand by adding a Percy quote, below are (1) what Percy said of himself in an interview from 1989 in response to the question at hand, and (2) the output of the ChatGPT AI system in response. Questions for member response: --Any comments about the AI-generated results, or the question in general? --Would artificial intelligence be a topic Percy would address in his writings--novels or otherwise--if he were alive today? (I think of LiR's lapsometer, or TS?s heavy sodium.) (Obviously, there is no right or wrong answer to these questions.) Regards, Henry Mills PS-Thanks, Tom, for your response last week. Without our straying too far from the question of whether Percy is a "Southern writer" as answered by him or by AI, I wonder if you could give explanation about why you state that ?ChatGPT [artificial intelligence] is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along??.*** --------------- PERCY?S VS. AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE RESPONSE (1) Percy interview response*: --Percy said in one interview about whether he considers himself a ?Southern writer? the year before he died with: "I don't like to be described as a Southern writer?.The danger is, if you're described as a Southern writer, you might be thought of as someone who writes about a picturesque local scene like Uncle Tom's Cabin, Gone With the Wind, something like that....? (1989 interview from More Conversations, 223). (2) Artificial Intelligence response**: --Submitted Query to ChatGPT: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? --Results from ChatGPT (Verbatim): "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: 1. Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region. 2. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. 3. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature. Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: 1. Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition. 2. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern. Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include: 1. "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. 2. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South. 3. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world. Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." ------------ SOURCES: *"Walker Percy and Southern Literature,? online essay, Veronica Makowsky (2016) https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/essays/makowsky.html Makowsky adds, "Percy frequently attempted to evade the danger of being labeled a 'Southern writer' by stressing the more existentialist aspects of his work, but his fiction nonetheless remains very much a part of the Southern literary heritage?.? **ChatGPT https://chat.openai.com/chat Query: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? ***Percy-L post, Tom Gollier (Feb. 4): ?Re: [percy-l] Is Walker Percy a Southern writer? (according to artificial intelligence ChatGPT)" https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/2023-February/002585.html On Feb 4, 2023, at 9:31 PM, Thomas Gollier > wrote: Henry, I have to make a quick answer to question 3, "What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of random language aggregation to form information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI?" I myself think ChatGPT is proof positive of what Walker Percy was trying to get at all along. It proves we can coherently express all we think we know, what is statistically legitimate to say about anything, without any reference whatsoever to the existing things themselves. ChapGPT is a smug "everydayness," a system of predicates that statistically covers pretty much the whole domain of our generally accepted uses of those predicates. I really find the machine amazing, and an incredible place to begin, especially if you follow it up with questions, especially with the examples it gives, to dig into anything vague or ambiguous in its responses. Eventually, if this leads to a real contradiction, it will simply restate a version of its starting point. Unlike us, the Kantian thing-in-itself is truly inaccessible to it. When the expected predicates fail us, we can still go out, kick the thing itself, and see what happens. Anyway, I'm anxious to see the responses to your message. Thanks, Tom On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 10:56 AM Henry P. Mills > wrote: Dear Percy-L, For community enjoyment, this Percy-L post will address the age-old question of "Is Walker Percy a Southern writer?". But with a new twist?. We will address the question by using the recently-made available artificial intelligence tool called ?ChatGPT.?* As we use this new tool to provide an answer, members are invited to respond to this unique AI challenge. Was ChatGPT successful? At the bottom of this email are several questions for further Percy-L discussion. Enjoy! Henry P. Mills Director, The Walker Percy Project ---------- *More Details About ChatGPT (If Desired): Released online in November 2022, ChatGPT is being discussed in worldwide news for how the AI tool will soon radically change the nature of research, writing, and information access on the Internet (via its ?natural language processing? capabilities). See the ChatGPT website: . For a readable overview about ChatGPT and its anticipated effects on society, see: https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/why-everyones-obsessed-with-the-mind-blowing-chatgpt-ai-chatbot/ ------------------------- A. THE CHATGPT WALKER PERCY CHALLENGE ? "IS WALKER PERCY A SOUTHERN WRITER?" Submitted Query to ChatGPT: "Give examples of why Walker Percy is a Southern writer and reasons why he is not. Which of his novels demonstrate he is a Southern writer?? Results From ChatGPT (Verbatim): "Reasons why Walker Percy is considered a Southern writer: 1. Place: Many of Percy's novels are set in the South, including Louisiana, which was his home state. He wrote about the culture, people, and landscapes of the Southern United States in a way that captures the essence of the region. 2. Themes: Percy's works often explore themes that are specific to the South, such as the loss of tradition, the struggle to maintain a sense of identity, and the impact of modernity on the Southern way of life. 3. Style: Percy's writing style has been described as Southern Gothic, and his use of dark, brooding imagery and existential themes is often associated with Southern literature. Reasons why some may argue that Walker Percy is not a Southern writer: 1. Universal appeal: While many of Percy's works are set in the South and explore Southern themes, they also deal with broader, universal issues such as the search for meaning and the human condition. 2. Influence: Percy was heavily influenced by European philosophers such as Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Marcel, which may lead some to argue that his writing is not distinctively Southern. Examples of Walker Percy's novels that demonstrate his Southern identity include: 1. "The Moviegoer" - Set in New Orleans, this novel explores the life of a young man searching for meaning in the modern world. 2. "The Last Gentleman" - This novel follows the journey of a man who is trying to find his place in the world, set against the backdrop of the South. 3. "Love in the Ruins" - Set in a small Louisiana town, this novel explores themes of identity and the human condition in the context of a rapidly changing world. Overall, while there may be arguments against labeling Percy as solely a Southern writer, the majority of literary critics and scholars consider him to be one of the most important Southern writers of the 20th century." ------------------------- B. QUESTIONS FOR PERCY-L DISCUSSION (or any other related question) 1. Did ChatGPT provide a useful response to the question? 2. Does it provide sufficient information to back up its response? Bear in mind that all of its information is pulled randomly from the Internet. 3. What might Percy think about ChatGPT? For instance, its use of language aggregation to form random information? Any existential ramifications come to mind from this new form of AI? 4. Other related thoughts? ChatGPT Query date: 2/4/2023 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael_serafin at hotmail.com Mon Feb 13 10:07:17 2023 From: michael_serafin at hotmail.com (Michael Martin Serafin) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 15:07:17 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Percy & Dante Message-ID: Did Percy read Dante? I would think so! Michael Serafin Chicopee, MA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dabeck at iupui.edu Mon Feb 13 11:19:12 2023 From: dabeck at iupui.edu (Beck, David A) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 16:19:12 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Percy & Dante In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. Read Lancelot. He opens with a quote from The Inferno. The book has nine chapters, referencing the nine rungs of hell, etc. At the book's end, Lance is complaining about how cold he is. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L on behalf of Michael Martin Serafin Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 10:07 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: [External] [percy-l] Percy & Dante This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources. Did Percy read Dante? I would think so! Michael Serafin Chicopee, MA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wppdirector at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 12:47:47 2023 From: wppdirector at gmail.com (Henry P. Mills) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 12:47:47 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy & Dante In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8AB0CC20-6CF3-4B39-9E5B-F0E72A72F5B8@gmail.com> Michael and David, thanks for opening a thread on Percy and Dante and how Lancelot reflects Dante. There is obviously more to unpack with the novel in that light. Love in the Ruins could be added alongside Lancelot. Jessica Hooten Wilson draws parallels between the novel and Dante?s Inferno early on in her discussion of LIR in her book, Reading Walker Percy?s Novels (LSU Press, 2018). She writes, ?Percy pays tribute to the great medieval Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), through whose Inferno Percy was trudging at the time of his drafting of Love in the Ruins. Dante's poem begins, ?Midway along the journey of our life, I came to myself in a dark wood.? More?s narrative begins, "Now in these dread latter days of the old violent beloved U.S.A and of the Christ-forgetting Christ-haunted death-dealing Western world I came to myself in a grove of young pines" (LIR, 3), Echoing the passivity of Dante's pilgrim, More also refuses responsibility for ending up where he has found himself. These two narrators awaken metaphorically in their respective dark woods without recollecting how the paths they chose led to their consequent destinations. In Percy?s narrative, like Dante's, the world takes on an infernal quality, and the devil himself will appear as a Jewish salesman. Moreover, as Dante in The Divine Comedy travels to paradise from earth via purgatory, and hell, so Tom "travels continually among the four settings," which Linda Whitney Hobson describes as "heaven [paradise], earth (town) purgatory (swamp), and hell (the pit)." However, in Percy's "postmodern allegory," the pilgrim waivers between the realms, rather than resolutely climb heavenward. The journeying More may also recall John Bunyan?s Christian from Pilgrim's Progress, but unlike these literary ancestors, More does not know that he is on a pilgrimage? (56)?. ...The goal of [LIR] is that readers wake up, that we come to ourselves and realize we, like Dante or More, are in a dark wood and have lost the straight way. Percy hopes, like Dante or More, we can begin our ascent towards the eternally promised paradise that Catholics, good and bad, believe in (70)." As a further angle, we could consider how LIR's Art Immelmann may be a reflection of Satan from the Inferno, albeit as a comedic caricature, alongside Percy?s fantastical invention of the Qualitative Quantitative Ontological Lapsometer and its temptations. Only someone like Percy could come up with the QQOL! Cheers, Henry https://lsupress.org/books/detail/reading-walker-percy-s-novels/ > On Feb 13, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Beck, David A wrote: > > Yes. Read Lancelot. He opens with a quote from The Inferno. The book has nine chapters, referencing the nine rungs of hell, etc. At the book's end, Lance is complaining about how cold he is. > > -David > > David Beck > Senior Lecturer > English Department > Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > 317-278-2550 > From: Percy-L > on behalf of Michael Martin Serafin > > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 10:07 AM > To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > > Subject: [External] [percy-l] Percy & Dante > > Did Percy read Dante? I would think so! > > Michael Serafin > Chicopee, MA. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowry.charles at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 14:27:23 2023 From: lowry.charles at gmail.com (Charles Lowry) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 14:27:23 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy & Dante In-Reply-To: <8AB0CC20-6CF3-4B39-9E5B-F0E72A72F5B8@gmail.com> References: <8AB0CC20-6CF3-4B39-9E5B-F0E72A72F5B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: In his masterful psychological study of Percy, Robert Coles (*Walker Percy: An American Search*) talks of Percy and Dante intermittently for about twenty pages (pp. 213-233), especially links between *Lancelot* and *Purgatorio*. Here is just an example: We have been given four lines from Canto XXX of Dante's *Purgatorio* as the epigraph--a distinct clue of the author's intentions: "He sank so low that all means/for his salvation were gone/except showing him the lost people./For this I visited the region of the dead..."... But Percy quotes from the canto of *Purgatorio* which T. S. Eliot has judged to provide the most intensely personal and psychologically decisive moment in the entire *Commedia*. Father Samway has an amusing anecdote about Percy's struggles with Dante (pp. 322-323): "Chiding Walker for preferring Tolstoy to Proust, Shelby recommended that Walker begin anew his effort to read Dante. If he had done that earlier, Shelby believed, he might have already been inspired to write his *magnum opus*. Walker replied that he was more interested in Homer than Dante." As we have come to expect, there are valuable nuggets in Jay Tolson's biography, especially his citation (p. 383) of a July 4, 1974 letter from Percy to Shelby Foote, the source for the alternate beginning of *Lancelot*. More generally, Tolson (pp. 362-363) speaks of a Dantean model for *Lancelot*: "Without a sense of evil or tragedy or hopelessness--those things over which comedy must triumph--the comic vision may seem shallow and sentimental. Dante, in order to make a complete commedia, had first to create his inferno. Percy knew that he would have to do the same. (And in fact, Percy had Dante very much in mind while writing *Lancelot*. At one point he would tell Foote--only half in jest--that he was going to appropriate the famous first lines of the *Inferno* for the opening of his novel: 'Now in the middle of this journey of our life, I came to myself in a dark wood.')" Tolson ferrets out another interesting fact (p. 402): "The torment of Percy's internal struggle grew unbearable that summer [1975]. Almost too appropriately, he had finally gotten around to reading Bergin's translation of *The Divine Comedy*. As he made his way through the *Inferno*, he felt a kind of rage and impotent fury building up in himself." Since I am generally bereft of any original thoughts of my own, I am happy to transcribe the work of my betters! Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 12:49 PM Henry P. Mills wrote: > > Michael and David, thanks for opening a thread on Percy and Dante and how *Lancelot > *reflects Dante*.* There is obviously more to unpack with the novel in > that light. > > > *Love in the Ruins* could be added alongside *Lancelot. *Jessica Hooten > Wilson draws parallels between the novel and Dante?s *Inferno* early on > in her discussion of LIR in her book, *Reading Walker Percy?s Novels *(LSU > Press, 2018). She writes, > > > ?Percy pays tribute to the great medieval Italian poet Dante Alighieri > (1265-1321), through whose* Inferno* Percy was trudging at the time of > his drafting of *Love in the Ruins.* Dante's poem begins, ?Midway along > the journey of our life, I came to myself in a dark wood.? More?s narrative > begins, "Now in these dread latter days of the old violent beloved U.S.A > and of the Christ-forgetting Christ-haunted death-dealing Western world I > came to myself in a grove of young pines" (LIR, 3), Echoing the passivity > of Dante's pilgrim, More also refuses responsibility for ending up where he > has found himself. These two narrators awaken metaphorically in their > respective dark woods without recollecting how the paths they chose led to > their consequent destinations. In Percy?s narrative, like Dante's, the > world takes on an infernal quality, and the devil himself will appear as a > Jewish salesman. Moreover, as Dante in *The Divine Comedy* travels to > paradise from earth via purgatory, and hell, so Tom "travels continually > among the four settings," which Linda Whitney Hobson describes as "heaven > [paradise], earth (town) purgatory (swamp), and hell (the pit)." However, > in Percy's "postmodern allegory," the pilgrim waivers between the realms, > rather than resolutely climb heavenward. The journeying More may also > recall John Bunyan?s Christian from *Pilgrim's Progress*, but unlike > these literary ancestors, More does not know that he is on a pilgrimage? > (56)?. > > > ...The goal of [LIR] is that readers wake up, that we come to ourselves > and realize we, like Dante or More, are in a dark wood and have lost the > straight way. Percy hopes, like Dante or More, we can begin our ascent > towards the eternally promised paradise that Catholics, good and bad, > believe in (70)." > > > As a further angle, we could consider how LIR's Art Immelmann may be a > reflection of Satan from the *Inferno*, albeit as a comedic caricature, > alongside Percy?s fantastical invention of the Qualitative Quantitative > Ontological Lapsometer and its temptations. Only someone like Percy could > come up with the QQOL! > > Cheers, > > Henry > > > > lsupress.org > > > > > > > > > On Feb 13, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Beck, David A wrote: > > Yes. Read Lancelot. He opens with a quote from The Inferno. The book has > nine chapters, referencing the nine rungs of hell, etc. At the book's end, > Lance is complaining about how cold he is. > > -David > > David Beck > Senior Lecturer > English Department > Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis > 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > 317-278-2550 > ------------------------------ > *From:* Percy-L on > behalf of Michael Martin Serafin > *Sent:* Monday, February 13, 2023 10:07 AM > *To:* percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > *Subject:* [External] [percy-l] Percy & Dante > > Did Percy read Dante? I would think so! > > Michael Serafin > Chicopee, MA. > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > USING PERCY-L > * Read Percy-L Charter and Policies: > https://ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/charter-policies.html > * Manage Your Membership: > https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l > * Submit a Post to Percy-L: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > * Contact the Listserv Manager: percy.listserv.manager at gmail.com > > LISTSERV ARCHIVES > * View Percy-L Discussion Archives: > https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ > * Search Percy-L Discussion Archives: > https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/how-to-search-archives.html > > THE WALKER PERCY PROJECT > * Visit The Walker Percy Project website: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Sun Feb 19 10:47:06 2023 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:47:06 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Percy & Dante In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, I'm sorry I'm a bit late to the party in this discussion. I've been saving the comments for a aday when I had the time to read and think about them. This thread has been fascinating. I hadn?t realized that the opening of LIR was a reference to Dante until this conversation. I remember first reading it and drawing a parallel to the opening paragraph of For Whom the Bell Tolls: "He lay flat on the brown, pine-needled floor of the forest, his chin on his folded arms, and high overhead the wind blew in the tops of the pine trees. The mountainside sloped gently where he lay; but below it was steep and he could see the dark of the oiled road winding through the pass." The connection to Dante has been convincingly argued here, though, I 'm not surprised to suppose now that Percy was layering the allusions. Maybe it's just me, as I thought he was spoofing Hemingway a bit in MG as well with the character of Sam Yerger (although I think that connection to Hemingway is confirmed by others). I was, however, surprised that Jessica Wooten Wilson identified Art Immelmann as Jewish in LIR. I have assumed (perhaps falsely as I don't mean to question Wilson's scholarship) that the name was a reference to the German aviator Max Immelmann, since Tom is reading a history of World War I. I guess I don't expect Percy to cast a satanic figure as a Jew, given that he doesn't reflect the antisemitism of some Catholics (as well as so many others). Percy is adamant always that the Jewish people are God's chosen, as the Old Testament asserts. That does lead me to the other obvious connection in LIR, which is the Don Giovanni, the Faustian opera that Tom listens to while watching the martins fly to and from their martin house behind his office. That one is such an easy surface grab, though. It's low-hanging fruit, whereas, in LIR, I find this Dante connection to be more subtle and satisfying. The commentary on the list regarding Lancelot was another nice illumination. While I had picked up on some of the Dantean elements on my own, I hadn't realized something as basic as the nine chapter division of the book. Now I'm wondering if Anna can be correlated to Beatrice? I'm thinking that's an investigation worth pursuing, although someone more clever than I am has likely already thought of it! I remember reading somewhere (if only I had Chuck's scholarship or memory and could find or remember where) that the image created of Lance being blown out of Belle Isle evokes Lucifer falling from heaven, which adds Milton's Paradise Lost as another intertextual element. What a lovely way to spend a Sunday morning, musing on Percy and Dante and other allusions to fine literature and art. All cheers to the whole list! Rhonda On Feb 18, 2023, at 2:27 PM, Charles Lowry wrote: ? In his masterful psychological study of Percy, Robert Coles (Walker Percy: An American Search) talks of Percy and Dante intermittently for about twenty pages (pp. 213-233), especially links between Lancelot and Purgatorio. Here is just an example: We have been given four lines from Canto XXX of Dante's Purgatorio as the epigraph--a distinct clue of the author's intentions: "He sank so low that all means/for his salvation were gone/except showing him the lost people./For this I visited the region of the dead..."... But Percy quotes from the canto of Purgatorio which T. S. Eliot has judged to provide the most intensely personal and psychologically decisive moment in the entire Commedia. Father Samway has an amusing anecdote about Percy's struggles with Dante (pp. 322-323): "Chiding Walker for preferring Tolstoy to Proust, Shelby recommended that Walker begin anew his effort to read Dante. If he had done that earlier, Shelby believed, he might have already been inspired to write his magnum opus. Walker replied that he was more interested in Homer than Dante." As we have come to expect, there are valuable nuggets in Jay Tolson's biography, especially his citation (p. 383) of a July 4, 1974 letter from Percy to Shelby Foote, the source for the alternate beginning of Lancelot. More generally, Tolson (pp. 362-363) speaks of a Dantean model for Lancelot: "Without a sense of evil or tragedy or hopelessness--those things over which comedy must triumph--the comic vision may seem shallow and sentimental. Dante, in order to make a complete commedia, had first to create his inferno. Percy knew that he would have to do the same. (And in fact, Percy had Dante very much in mind while writing Lancelot. At one point he would tell Foote--only half in jest--that he was going to appropriate the famous first lines of the Inferno for the opening of his novel: 'Now in the middle of this journey of our life, I came to myself in a dark wood.')" Tolson ferrets out another interesting fact (p. 402): "The torment of Percy's internal struggle grew unbearable that summer [1975]. Almost too appropriately, he had finally gotten around to reading Bergin's translation of The Divine Comedy. As he made his way through the Inferno, he felt a kind of rage and impotent fury building up in himself." Since I am generally bereft of any original thoughts of my own, I am happy to transcribe the work of my betters! Chuck Lowry Brooklyn, New York On Sat, Feb 18, 2023 at 12:49 PM Henry P. Mills > wrote: Michael and David, thanks for opening a thread on Percy and Dante and how Lancelot reflects Dante. There is obviously more to unpack with the novel in that light. Love in the Ruins could be added alongside Lancelot. Jessica Hooten Wilson draws parallels between the novel and Dante?s Inferno early on in her discussion of LIR in her book, Reading Walker Percy?s Novels (LSU Press, 2018). She writes, ?Percy pays tribute to the great medieval Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), through whose Inferno Percy was trudging at the time of his drafting of Love in the Ruins. Dante's poem begins, ?Midway along the journey of our life, I came to myself in a dark wood.? More?s narrative begins, "Now in these dread latter days of the old violent beloved U.S.A and of the Christ-forgetting Christ-haunted death-dealing Western world I came to myself in a grove of young pines" (LIR, 3), Echoing the passivity of Dante's pilgrim, More also refuses responsibility for ending up where he has found himself. These two narrators awaken metaphorically in their respective dark woods without recollecting how the paths they chose led to their consequent destinations. In Percy?s narrative, like Dante's, the world takes on an infernal quality, and the devil himself will appear as a Jewish salesman. Moreover, as Dante in The Divine Comedy travels to paradise from earth via purgatory, and hell, so Tom "travels continually among the four settings," which Linda Whitney Hobson describes as "heaven [paradise], earth (town) purgatory (swamp), and hell (the pit)." However, in Percy's "postmodern allegory," the pilgrim waivers between the realms, rather than resolutely climb heavenward. The journeying More may also recall John Bunyan?s Christian from Pilgrim's Progress, but unlike these literary ancestors, More does not know that he is on a pilgrimage? (56)?. ...The goal of [LIR] is that readers wake up, that we come to ourselves and realize we, like Dante or More, are in a dark wood and have lost the straight way. Percy hopes, like Dante or More, we can begin our ascent towards the eternally promised paradise that Catholics, good and bad, believe in (70)." As a further angle, we could consider how LIR's Art Immelmann may be a reflection of Satan from the Inferno, albeit as a comedic caricature, alongside Percy?s fantastical invention of the Qualitative Quantitative Ontological Lapsometer and its temptations. Only someone like Percy could come up with the QQOL! Cheers, Henry lsupress.org [X] On Feb 13, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Beck, David A > wrote: Yes. Read Lancelot. He opens with a quote from The Inferno. The book has nine chapters, referencing the nine rungs of hell, etc. At the book's end, Lance is complaining about how cold he is. -David David Beck Senior Lecturer English Department Indiana University and Purdue University at Indianapolis 425 University Boulevard, CA 343-E Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-278-2550 ________________________________ From: Percy-L > on behalf of Michael Martin Serafin > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2023 10:07 AM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org > Subject: [External] [percy-l] Percy & Dante Did Percy read Dante? I would think so! Michael Serafin Chicopee, MA. ---------------------------------- USING PERCY-L * Read Percy-L Charter and Policies: https://ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/charter-policies.html * Manage Your Membership: https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Submit a Post to Percy-L: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org * Contact the Listserv Manager: percy.listserv.manager at gmail.com LISTSERV ARCHIVES * View Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Search Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/how-to-search-archives.html THE WALKER PERCY PROJECT * Visit The Walker Percy Project website: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy ---------------------------------- USING PERCY-L * Read Percy-L Charter and Policies: https://ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/charter-policies.html * Manage Your Membership: https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Submit a Post to Percy-L: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org * Contact the Listserv Manager: percy.listserv.manager at gmail.com LISTSERV ARCHIVES * View Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Search Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/how-to-search-archives.html THE WALKER PERCY PROJECT * Visit The Walker Percy Project website: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lowry.charles at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 15:58:32 2023 From: lowry.charles at gmail.com (lowry.charles at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:58:32 -0500 Subject: [percy-l] Percy & Dante In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <287603F5-E406-492F-9676-2685B4363AAF@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael_serafin at hotmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:43:10 2023 From: michael_serafin at hotmail.com (Michael Martin Serafin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 02:43:10 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Percy. & Jung? Message-ID: Did Percy ever study Jung? Just wondering.... Michael Serafin Western Mass. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com Wed Feb 22 15:08:19 2023 From: rhonda_mcdonnell at msn.com (RHONDA MCDONNELL) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 20:08:19 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Percy. & Jung? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, My guess would have been yes, but I didn?t want to be too cocky. So I checked the Wilson Library at UNC-Chapel Hill, and sure enough found several Jung books in the Percy collection. That suggests that he did read Jung. Additionally, as psychiatry was one of the areas he was interested in pursuing as a specialty, I imagine he was introduced to Jungian psychology in med school. But I am imagining. I wonder if he spoke of Jung in any interviews? I?ll have to check the indexes of the ?Conversations with ?? volumes on Percy. What prompts your question? Rhonda Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Michael Martin Serafin wrote: ? Did Percy ever study Jung? Just wondering.... Michael Serafin Western Mass. ---------------------------------- USING PERCY-L * Read Percy-L Charter and Policies: https://ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/charter-policies.html * Manage Your Membership: https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Submit a Post to Percy-L: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org * Contact the Listserv Manager: percy.listserv.manager at gmail.com LISTSERV ARCHIVES * View Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Search Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/how-to-search-archives.html THE WALKER PERCY PROJECT * Visit The Walker Percy Project website: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael_serafin at hotmail.com Fri Feb 24 21:20:31 2023 From: michael_serafin at hotmail.com (Michael Martin Serafin) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2023 02:20:31 +0000 Subject: [percy-l] Percy-L Digest, Vol 179, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Miss McDonnell, Thanks for your input on this. Lately, I have been catching up on episodes of a podcast called "Digital Jung", written and presented by Jason Smith, Jungian analyst and author of " Religious But Not Religious: Living A Symbolic Life", and the podcast is a companion to the book. At the same time, I have just started reading "The Last Gentleman" for the first time. In it, Percy's protagonist reads "a German physician" whose patient experiences "gaps" in memory and "fugue states". I was wondering if this " German physician" referred to, but not named is Jung. ________________________________ From: Percy-L on behalf of percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 5:00 PM To: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org Subject: Percy-L Digest, Vol 179, Issue 10 Send Percy-L mailing list submissions to percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to percy-l-request at lists.ibiblio.org You can reach the person managing the list at percy-l-owner at lists.ibiblio.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Percy-L digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Percy. & Jung? (RHONDA MCDONNELL) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2023 20:08:19 +0000 From: RHONDA MCDONNELL To: "Percy-L: Literary, Religious, Scientific, and Philosophical Discussion" Subject: Re: [percy-l] Percy. & Jung? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Michael, My guess would have been yes, but I didn?t want to be too cocky. So I checked the Wilson Library at UNC-Chapel Hill, and sure enough found several Jung books in the Percy collection. That suggests that he did read Jung. Additionally, as psychiatry was one of the areas he was interested in pursuing as a specialty, I imagine he was introduced to Jungian psychology in med school. But I am imagining. I wonder if he spoke of Jung in any interviews? I?ll have to check the indexes of the ?Conversations with ?? volumes on Percy. What prompts your question? Rhonda Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Michael Martin Serafin wrote: ? Did Percy ever study Jung? Just wondering.... Michael Serafin Western Mass. ---------------------------------- USING PERCY-L * Read Percy-L Charter and Policies: https://ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/charter-policies.html * Manage Your Membership: https://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/percy-l * Submit a Post to Percy-L: percy-l at lists.ibiblio.org * Contact the Listserv Manager: percy.listserv.manager at gmail.com LISTSERV ARCHIVES * View Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/percy-l/ * Search Percy-L Discussion Archives: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy/listserv/how-to-search-archives.html THE WALKER PERCY PROJECT * Visit The Walker Percy Project website: https://www.ibiblio.org/wpercy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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