Gal. 4:13-14

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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Jonathan Robie »

bewell wrote:In my limited experience focusing on NT grammar and syntax, i don't recall seeing a sentence break generate dialog like the one we've seen in the commentaries on this text. Are there comparable examples?
Yes, there are others.

Hey, a housekeeping issue: could you please authorize me to change your user name to fit B-Greek policy? This is required to be able to post. We tried to reach you by email, but did not get a reply. I'll delete this note once that is dealt with.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Andrew Chapman
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Thanks, Jonathan, I can see that I needed to close the bracket opened with οἴδατε. So I think I would have it like this (that is, as my attempt to represent Lachmann as interpreted by Burton):

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ
   [ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ],
   καὶ
   [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
]
[ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
ἀλλὰ
[ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
That is, I would have all the verbs in the second person plural parallel to one another. I don't think Lachmann could be seeing Paul as saying that 'you know ... you did not despise or reject'.

Andrew
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Andrew Chapman wrote:Thanks, Jonathan, I can see that I needed to close the bracket opened with οἴδατε. So I think I would have it like this (that is, as my attempt to represent Lachmann as interpreted by Burton):

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ
   [ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ],
   καὶ
   [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
]
[ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
ἀλλὰ
[ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
That is, I would have all the verbs in the second person plural parallel to one another. I don't think Lachmann could be seeing Paul as saying that 'you know ... you did not despise or reject'.
Good - I would add one more level of brackets around the second sentence, because there's a word group composed of two clauses joined by ἀλλὰ:

Code: Select all

[
  [ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
  ἀλλὰ
  [ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
]
Does that make sense? I probably need to get in the habit of erasing punctuation before I do this, so the punctuation and the tree don't clash.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Andrew Chapman
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Hi Jonathan, it's the second level of brackets that had made me think that you were putting οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε and following under oἴδατε - because it's on the same level of indent as ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς κ.τ.λ. I suppose a programmer would take the ] on line 6 as signalling the end of the influence of οἴδατε, but that wasn't obvious to me.

I don't yet understand why you would want to indent two clauses just because they are joined by a coordinating conjunction, but I am happy to believe that there may well be a good reason for it.

Andrew
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Andrew Chapman wrote:.... to represent Lachmann as interpreted by Burton:

Code: Select all

[ οὐδέν με ἠδικήσατε· ]
[ οἴδατε δὲ
   [ ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον ],
   καὶ
   [ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.]
]
[ οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ]
ἀλλὰ
[ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.]
Commenting on the use of καὶ in this verse (without the Lachmann full stop), Troy Martin (Whose Flesh? JSNT, 1999) says; "The temporal reference τὸ πρότερον just before καὶ indicates that the καὶ is probably the type J.D. Denniston, The Greek Particles (Oxford) describes: 'Of two clauses linked by καὶ, the first sometimes gives the time or circumstances in which the action of the second takes place place.'

Could that type of καὶ work with the Lachmann full stop? Thus, I suppose, remembrance ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον provides the time or circumstances for remembrance of τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.
Andrew Chapman
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Andrew Chapman »

Could that type of καὶ work with the Lachmann full stop? Thus, I suppose, remembrance ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον provides the time or circumstances for remembrance of τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.
I doubt that there is any reason why not. I also doubt that it is a matter of 'that kind of καί'. καί, when it is coordinating as here in the Lachmann view, just connects the two clauses, and I think it would be quite natural to assume that the time of the first would also apply to the second. Thus, 'you know that I preached the gospel to you the first time, and [you know] your temptation in my flesh [at that time]'. I think that would be fine, but others can correct me.

I think my problem with this is that it seems to me to lack balance to have καί coordinating an object clause with a noun phrase. I would be interested to learn of examples of such a thing, and especially in Paul's letters.

Andrew
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Jonathan Robie »

I should have responded to this earlier ...
Andrew Chapman wrote:I don't yet understand why you would want to indent two clauses just because they are joined by a coordinating conjunction, but I am happy to believe that there may well be a good reason for it.
My reason for indenting this is that they are each part of a larger structure that is coordinated by the conjunction, and I want to show what this structure is.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Andrew Chapman wrote:
I think my problem with this is that it seems to me to lack balance to have καί coordinating an object clause with a noun phrase. I would be interested to learn of examples of such a thing, and especially in Paul's letters.
I too would be interested to learn of examples of such a thing, and especially in Paul's letters.

For my clarification: this is the "object clause" in question , διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον and this is a "noun phrase", τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου Correct?

And the problem is that καί normally must connect grammatical equivalents. Without the Lachmann full stop after μου, Martin, observing this lack of balance, says that καί "does not connect the two flesh statements but the verbs εὐηγγελισάμην in v. 13 and ἐξουθενήσατε in v. 14."

Would you agree with Martin that this reading would provide the needed balance? Or are there balance problems with Martin's reading too? I guess Martin's reading would be, "You know... I evangelized... and [you know]... you did not despise [me]." (Martin says, correctly I think, that the object of ἐξουθενήσατε is the με at ἐδέξασθέ με).
Andrew Chapman
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Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Andrew Chapman »

For my clarification: this is the "object clause" in question , διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον and this is a "noun phrase", τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου Correct?

Yes, except that I think I would include the ὅτι in the object clause: ὅτι διʼ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον

Nunn, for example, [short syntax, para 146] says that ὅτι 'introduces' the noun clause - it's just the object of οἴδατε - 'What do you know?' 'I know geology' OR 'I know that the sky is blue'. I suppose that's slightly ambiguous as to whether ὅτι should be considered a component of the clause itself.
And the problem is that καί normally must connect grammatical equivalents. Without the Lachmann full stop after μου, Martin, observing this lack of balance, says that καί "does not connect the two flesh statements but the verbs εὐηγγελισάμην in v. 13 and ἐξουθενήσατε in v. 14."
It looks like Martin must have ὅτι governing the whole of the rest of the sentence up to the end of verse 14. How would he translate it?
I guess Martin's reading would be, "You know... I evangelized... and [you know]... you did not despise [me]."
Isn't it perhaps (according to Martin) 'You know that I evangelised and [that] you did not despise ..'.

I somehow think you would need to repeat the ὅτι after καί, as I think we would have to repeat 'that', but I might be wrong.

I tend to read it as three main coordinate components connected by καί and ἀλλά :

οἴδατε
καὶ
οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε
ἀλλά
ἐδέξασθε

Andrew

P.S. what's the reference for Martin? - I am just getting Martin Luther's Galatians commentary, when I search for it.
Gregory Hartzler-Miller
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Joined: May 23rd, 2015, 10:09 pm

Re: Gal. 4:13-14

Post by Gregory Hartzler-Miller »

Great answer. Thanks!

I learned about the Martin article from Jonathan Robie's citation, quoted in the next post.
Last edited by Gregory Hartzler-Miller on July 3rd, 2015, 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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