Parsing Greek texts

jtauber
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by jtauber »

Stephen Hughes wrote:I thought we were discussing the adverbiality of subordinate clauses in Greek, and the various ways of adapting a verbal phrase for use adverbially. I didn't realise it was a question about what terminology people like. Perhaps we can discuss subordination and adverbiality more generally in another thread.
Well the original question was what part of speech Alan should tag καθώς as, more generally, what to tag adverbial conjunctions as, and even more generally, how best to discuss discrepancies in the tagging between the MorphGNT and what Alan is doing.

Alan, you might want to look at https://github.com/morphgnt/sblgnt/blob ... lelist.txt which is all the ways my analysis maps to the Robinson analysis. Many of the conflicts there need to be discussed / resolved and there may be quite a lot of overlap between that and the differences you've found.

James
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Stephen Hughes »

jtauber wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I thought we were discussing the adverbiality of subordinate clauses in Greek, and the various ways of adapting a verbal phrase for use adverbially. I didn't realise it was a question about what terminology people like. Perhaps we can discuss subordination and adverbiality more generally in another thread.
Well the original question was what part of speech Alan should tag καθώς as, more generally, what to tag adverbial conjunctions as, and even more generally, how best to discuss discrepancies in the tagging between the MorphGNT and what ...
James
Yes. I realise that, but I thought we would discuss the definition of this particular adverbial conjunction within the broader context of the adverbiality of subjunctive clauses and then decide whether there were grounds for accepting that it had adverbial sense always, conjunctive sense always, or whether there were some situations in which it could be classified as one or the other - in the way that improper prepositions have a dual classification dependent on their usage.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Jonathan Robie »

jtauber wrote:[1] note that the GBI Syntax Trees don't model subordinating conjunction that way so need a little bit of tweaking to extract the necessary diagnosis
But we may want to talk with Randall and see if this enhancement could be done. I don't know how feasible that would be.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
jtauber
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by jtauber »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
jtauber wrote:[1] note that the GBI Syntax Trees don't model subordinating conjunction that way so need a little bit of tweaking to extract the necessary diagnosis
But we may want to talk with Randall and see if this enhancement could be done. I don't know how feasible that would be.
I suspect I could do it as part of my dependency conversion but I don't necessarily want to diverge too much.

I believe the GBI Syntax Trees still enable the necessary diagnostic, it just has to be formed differently. I think it's even possible with my dependency version.

For example: does every instance of καθώς have a 'conj' relationship to a verb head that in turn has a CL relationship to another verb head? Well it turns out only in 113 out of 182 times.

Here are the full results:

113 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a V-
12 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a N-
10 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a None
8 καθώς is a conj of a N- that is a CL of a V-
5 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a A-
4 καθώς is a conj of a RP that is a CL of a V-
4 καθώς is a conj of a A- that is a CL of a V-
3 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a ADV of a V-
3 καθώς is a conj of a N- that is a CL of a N-
3 καθώς is a conj of a A- that is a CL of a A-
2 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a RP
2 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a D-
2 καθώς is a conj of a RP that is a CL of a N-
2 καθώς is a conj of a RP that is a CL of a A-
1 καθώς is a conj of a V- that is a CL of a RD
1 καθώς is a conj of a RD that is a CL of a N-
1 καθώς is a conj of a N- that is a CL of a RP
1 καθώς is a conj of a N- that is a CL of a D-
1 καθώς is a conj of a N- that is a ADV of a V-
1 καθώς is a conj of a D- that is a CL of a None
1 καθώς is a conj of a D- that is a CL of a N-
1 καθώς is a conj of a A- that is a CL of a None
1 καθώς is a conj of a A- that is a CL of a N-
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Jonathan Robie »

As long as the information is there, this might be something we could do in the lowfat versions even if GBI can't support it.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
jtauber
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by jtauber »

Jonathan Robie wrote:As long as the information is there, this might be something we could do in the lowfat versions even if GBI can't support it.
As best I can tell, the issue is mostly in the value of the `Head` attribute rather than the actual tree structure, so it maybe trivial (or even unnecessary) to change anything in the lowfat versions.
James Tauber
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Alan Bunning
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Alan Bunning »

Jonathan Robie wrote:I'd suggest that we discuss the conceptual questions here on B-Greek, the kind of thing where you might expect disagreement or reasoned discussion. I'd suggest that you raise obvious bugs on github.
I am not sure that I can tell the difference. I don't trust my own parsings enough to think that someone else has an error. I usually think there might be another valid way to label it, or else that I might be wrong. That is why I was looking for help.
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Alan Bunning wrote:I am not sure that I can tell the difference. I don't trust my own parsings enough to think that someone else has an error. I usually think there might be another valid way to label it, or else that I might be wrong. That is why I was looking for help.
Parsing is fairly straightforward - identify the parts of speech and their declensions and conjugations at a word level. Catergorising the syntactical elements and their functions at a phrase and paragraph level is a bit more involved. What you are asking about here is a combination of single phrase and paragraph functions of καθώς. At a word level, it is not declined or conjugated - it is technically indeclinable.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Alan Bunning
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Re: Parsing Greek texts

Post by Alan Bunning »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Alan Bunning wrote:I am not sure that I can tell the difference. I don't trust my own parsings enough to think that someone else has an error. I usually think there might be another valid way to label it, or else that I might be wrong. That is why I was looking for help.
Parsing is fairly straightforward - identify the parts of speech and their declensions and conjugations at a word level. Catergorising the syntactical elements and their functions at a phrase and paragraph level is a bit more involved. What you are asking about here is a combination of single phrase and paragraph functions of καθώς. At a word level, it is not declined or conjugated - it is technically indeclinable.
Well, no at this time I am only interested in parsing at the word level and the 180 or so differences I want to resolve at that level were apparently not straightforward to someone. Robie and Tauber have gone beyond that and are doing syntax trees.
cwconrad
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Re: Parsing Greek texts: nomina and realia

Post by cwconrad »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Alan Bunning wrote:I am not sure that I can tell the difference. I don't trust my own parsings enough to think that someone else has an error. I usually think there might be another valid way to label it, or else that I might be wrong. That is why I was looking for help.
Parsing is fairly straightforward - identify the parts of speech and their declensions and conjugations at a word level. Catergorising the syntactical elements and their functions at a phrase and paragraph level is a bit more involved. What you are asking about here is a combination of single phrase and paragraph functions of καθώς. At a word level, it is not declined or conjugated - it is technically indeclinable.
Gen.2:18-20 wrote:Καὶ εἶπεν κύριος ὁ θεός Οὐ καλὸν εἶναι τὸν ἄνθρωπον μόνον· ποιήσωμεν αὐτῷ βοηθὸν κατ᾿ αὐτόν. καὶ ἔπλασεν ὁ θεὸς ἔτι ἐκ τῆς γῆς πάντα τὰ θηρία τοῦ ἀγροῦ καὶ πάντα τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ ἤγαγεν αὐτὰ πρὸς τὸν Αδαμ ἰδεῖν, τί καλέσει αὐτά, καὶ πᾶν, ὃ ἐὰν ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὸ Αδαμ ψυχὴν ζῶσαν, τοῦτο ὄνομα αὐτοῦ. Καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Αδαμ ὀνόματα πᾶσιν τοῖς κτήνεσιν καὶ πᾶaσι τοῖς πετεινοῖς τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καὶ πᾶσι τοῖς θηρίοις τοῦ ἀγροῦ, τῷ δὲ Αδαμ οὐχ εὑρέθη βοηθὸς ὅμοιος αὐτῷ.
It would appear that Adam couldn't give names to the parts of speech without the aid of a woman, but we are not told what names they ultimately imposed on them. It's a pity, because that chore was left to Linguists who have not been able to agree on the finer points of basic grammatical terminology, perhaps because they haven't yet come to a fully-satisfying consensus over "categorizing the syntactical elements and their functions at a phrase and paragraph level." We are stuck with terms such as "tense", although we know very well that time is not the only factor involved in tense-usage and some even argue that ancient Greek tenses have nothing to do with time. We talk about grammatical voice although it's hard to discern any relationship between what the ancient Greeks called διάθεσις and the sounds produced by human speakers -- any relationship, that is, which helps us understand the workings of active, middle, and passive. At least some of the terms we have come to employ for the distinct elements of language at the word, phrase, and paragraph levels are arbitrary; some are misleading. It may be that we can't reach a consensus term for the part of speech of καθώς because we haven't reached a consensus about how it functions. Or it may be that that we agree perfectly well on how it functions, but can't agree on a term to refer to that function. In a word, it seems that, when we endeavor to resolve questions about the simplest elements of language, we are at a loss for words.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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