I think you have understood me correctly. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to look for hard evidence. Just looking at a word that has the range of meanings that LSJ shows makes me cautious. They list 'define' among the senses. However, one would have to go beyond a dictionary and look at the examples themselves. Perhaps someone else on the list has the time to pick some relevant examples, as you pose an interesting question.AMSpencer wrote:Kimmo, if I understand correctly the language that you are using in "performative" then I think you are right at the point that I am asking about. As I look at the use of this word in the rest of the NT (limited data, granted), I feel like the action is always "performative." That is, this word always reflects an act of making something so, determining that it will be so. I am questioning whether it is ever used in the sense of simply stating something publicly as fact that has already been so for some time previous. I think this is what you are saying with your terminology, but correct me if I am wrong. Do you have an idea of some evidence/instances that show that the word does mean the merely "public definition" idea?KimmoHuovila wrote:Appointing is a performative definition and declaration is a public definition that need not be performative.
The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Re: The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
Kimmo Huovila
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Re: The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
Even if one goes for the weaker sense of 'marked out to be (in the eyes of men)' through His resurrection, that's still not quite the same as 'declare', which as Stephen said, is a speech act. 'Declare' is in BAGD, citing Meleager:
σὲ γὰρ θεὸν ὥρισε δαίμων
which is translated in Loeb as 'for Destiny ordained thee a god' [Loeb, Greek Anthology, Paton vol. 4, 12.158], and in L&S with 'determine'. So it hardly seems to force 'declare'.
Andrew
σὲ γὰρ θεὸν ὥρισε δαίμων
which is translated in Loeb as 'for Destiny ordained thee a god' [Loeb, Greek Anthology, Paton vol. 4, 12.158], and in L&S with 'determine'. So it hardly seems to force 'declare'.
Andrew
Re: The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
Dear fellow B-Greekers,
I’m currently wrestling with the semantic range of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4 (τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει), particularly in light of various translations and interpretations—most notably N.T. Wright’s rendering: “who was marked out powerfully as God’s son.”
Wright appears to understand ὁρίζω here as meaning “declared” or “shown to be”—stating that the resurrection publicly revealed Jesus' true identity as Son of God. However, I’m concerned this veers into what D.A. Carson describes as the etymological fallacy. That is, Wright seems to root his interpretation in the historical connection to ὅρος (“boundary”), leading to “marked out” as a metaphor for revelation.
My question is: Is there lexical or contextual justification in Koine Greek for understanding ὁρίζω in the sense of “declare” or “manifest,” rather than “appoint” or “determine”?
Most major lexicons and commentators (e.g., BDAG, NIDNTTE, Thielman, Schreiner, Dunn) appear to reject the “declare” sense in NT contexts. The only potential support BDAG offers is meaning 2.b., citing Meleager’s epigram (σὲ γὰρ θεὸν ὥρισε δαίμων), but Moisés Silva has challenged that citation as reflecting deification rather than mere public proclamation.
Have any of you encountered strong textual or epigraphic evidence that supports “declare” as a viable meaning for ὁρίζω in the NT era? Or do you find Wright’s rendering defensible as a dynamic translation, even if the lexical data favors “appoint”?
Looking forward to your thoughts—especially if you know of any obscure papyri or inscriptions that might shed light on this!
Warmly,
Randy
I’m currently wrestling with the semantic range of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4 (τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει), particularly in light of various translations and interpretations—most notably N.T. Wright’s rendering: “who was marked out powerfully as God’s son.”
Wright appears to understand ὁρίζω here as meaning “declared” or “shown to be”—stating that the resurrection publicly revealed Jesus' true identity as Son of God. However, I’m concerned this veers into what D.A. Carson describes as the etymological fallacy. That is, Wright seems to root his interpretation in the historical connection to ὅρος (“boundary”), leading to “marked out” as a metaphor for revelation.
My question is: Is there lexical or contextual justification in Koine Greek for understanding ὁρίζω in the sense of “declare” or “manifest,” rather than “appoint” or “determine”?
Most major lexicons and commentators (e.g., BDAG, NIDNTTE, Thielman, Schreiner, Dunn) appear to reject the “declare” sense in NT contexts. The only potential support BDAG offers is meaning 2.b., citing Meleager’s epigram (σὲ γὰρ θεὸν ὥρισε δαίμων), but Moisés Silva has challenged that citation as reflecting deification rather than mere public proclamation.
Have any of you encountered strong textual or epigraphic evidence that supports “declare” as a viable meaning for ὁρίζω in the NT era? Or do you find Wright’s rendering defensible as a dynamic translation, even if the lexical data favors “appoint”?
Looking forward to your thoughts—especially if you know of any obscure papyri or inscriptions that might shed light on this!
Warmly,
Randy
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Re: The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
τῷ φιλτάτῳ Randy, χαίρειν.
Just a quick reminder about our forum policy: we ask all participants to identify themselves using their first and last name, either as part of their username (which I can change for you) or included clearly in their forum signature (which you can edit here). This helps maintain a sense of trust and openness in our community.
Could you please update your profile to reflect your full name in one of those places? Let us know which option you prefer.
Looking forward to your participation in the discussions ahead!
Jason A. Hare
The Hebrew Café
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Re: The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
All of the BDAG senses grow out of the single core idea “to mark off, set a boundary” (BDAG 1). In Greek the noun ὅρος means “boundary, limit,” and ὁρίζω literally means “to delimit, to mark out.” From that concrete notion you get:randy41 wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2025, 2:24 pm Dear fellow B-Greekers,
I’m currently wrestling with the semantic range of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4 (τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει), particularly in light of various translations and interpretations—most notably N.T. Wright’s rendering: “who was marked out powerfully as God’s son.”
Wright appears to understand ὁρίζω here as meaning “declared” or “shown to be”—stating that the resurrection publicly revealed Jesus' true identity as Son of God. However, I’m concerned this veers into what D.A. Carson describes as the etymological fallacy. That is, Wright seems to root his interpretation in the historical connection to ὅρος (“boundary”), leading to “marked out” as a metaphor for revelation.
My question is: Is there lexical or contextual justification in Koine Greek for understanding ὁρίζω in the sense of “declare” or “manifest,” rather than “appoint” or “determine”?
- Define/specify (BDAG 4): “to delimit a term or concept”
- Appoint/designate (BDAG 2 a): “to mark someone out for a role”
- Determine/fix (BDAG 2 b): “to fix a status or decision”
- Declare/proclaim (BDAG 3 a): metaphorically, “to demarcate publicly what is true”
- Manifest/reveal (BDAG 3 b): “to bring into view what was bounded off”
I think this is a question about the context surrounding the word - and so is BDAG 2b. The context can justify a specific sense derived from the core meaning. You mention semantic domains - I like the SemDom questions for determining word senses. In context, which of these questions does the verse seem to answer? What aspects of the context give clues?randy41 wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2025, 2:24 pmMost major lexicons and commentators (e.g., BDAG, NIDNTTE, Thielman, Schreiner, Dunn) appear to reject the “declare” sense in NT contexts. The only potential support BDAG offers is meaning 2.b., citing Meleager’s epigram (σὲ γὰρ θεὸν ὥρισε δαίμων), but Moisés Silva has challenged that citation as reflecting deification rather than mere public proclamation.
Have any of you encountered strong textual or epigraphic evidence that supports “declare” as a viable meaning for ὁρίζω in the NT era? Or do you find Wright’s rendering defensible as a dynamic translation, even if the lexical data favors “appoint”?
- BDAG 1 “mark off, set a boundary”
SemDom.org 53.1 (Space → Boundary setting)
Domain question: “Where and how is an area or limit being marked off or bounded?” - BDAG 2 a “appoint, designate”
SemDom.org 20.1 (Authority → Appointment)
Domain question: “Who is appointing whom to which role or office?” - BDAG 2 b “determine, fix firmly”
SemDom.org 20.2 (Authority → Determination)
Domain question: “What decision or status is being firmly established or fixed, and by whose authority?” - BDAG 3 a “declare, proclaim”
SemDom.org 40.6 (Communication → Proclamation)
Domain question: “What is being publicly announced or proclaimed, and by whom?” - BDAG 3 b “manifest, reveal”
SemDom.org 40.1 (Communication → Revelation)
Domain question: “What hidden fact or reality is being unveiled or made visible?” - BDAG 4 “define, specify (terms)”
SemDom.org 52.2 (Classification → Definition)
Domain question: “How is a term or concept being precisely defined or specified?”
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: The meaning of ὁρίζω in Romans 1:4
Still noodling on this ... I think this refers to three distinct times:
- εἰς εὐαγγέλιον θεοῦ ὃ προεπηγγείλατο διὰ τῶν προφητῶν αὐτοῦ ἐν γραφαῖς ἁγίαις περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ,
- τοῦ γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυὶδ κατὰ σάρκα,
- τοῦ ὁρισθέντος υἱοῦ θεοῦ ἐν δυνάμει κατὰ πνεῦμα ἁγιωσύνης ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/