If all you are asking about is the grammar, here is a simple introduction : Chapter 17 of the Online Textbook, http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/contents.html, as a pdf file http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook ... itions.pdf, see sections 17.4 and 17.9
Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
Forum rules
This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.
When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.
This is a beginner's forum - see the Koine Greek forum for more advanced discussion of Greek texts. Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up.
When answering questions in this forum, keep it simple, and aim your responses to the level of the person asking the question.
-
- Posts: 426
- Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
- Location: New Mexico
- Contact:
Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
Thanks Eeli. I appreciate it.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 12:23 pm Basically any introductory text. At least John I. Saeed: Semantics is good, so is Alan Cruse: Meaning in Language. I have read them (maybe older editions). Anything by Cambridge and Oxford are probably good, like Semantics: An Introduction to Meaning in Language; or Semantics (Oxford Introduction to Language Study Series). I don't know how one could go awfully wrong with any introductory book by a reputable publisher.
https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/231, Analyzing meaning: An introduction to semantics and pragmatics is a free pdf.
Please note that semantics may not directly address the issues at hand. But it's the one subdicipline of linguistics which is easy to start with and which can pay back immediately. It's fascinating and useful for anyone who is interested in language. It gives perspective for example to discussions about tense, aspect and voice or noun case system or reading lexicons.
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
Thanks.Shirley Rollinson wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 12:50 pmIf all you are asking about is the grammar, here is a simple introduction : Chapter 17 of the Online Textbook, http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook02/contents.html, as a pdf file http://www.drshirley.org/greek/textbook ... itions.pdf, see sections 17.4 and 17.9
What I lack in youth I make up for in immaturity.
-
- Posts: 3355
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
My recommendation is to take a class in Greek and treat it as a language instead of a cipher to be decoded.Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 9:16 amStephen, Eeli, what reading would you recommend here for someone who does not have this background? Is there something reasonably accessible?Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 8:54 am Like for other people, I recommend reading some dose of general linguistics, especially semantics. You would probably understand better what Stephen says.
I just moved this thread to the Beginner's Forum, but even many people who are not beginners have not read these things. What would you recommend we read?
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
-
- Posts: 620
- Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 7:49 am
- Location: Finland
- Contact:
Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
Fair enough, and that's pretty much the stock answer here. But on the other hand you already used metalanguage in your explanation. I would be interested in seeing how you yourself explain your explanation. "What does non-referential mean" is in my opinion the question which should have been asked immediately by the original poster instead of skipping the explanation. The whole discussion would have been very different.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 10:13 pm My recommendation is to take a class in Greek and treat it as a language instead of a cipher to be decoded.
I don't have motivation to start reading Kroeger now ("Analyzing meaning" linked to above) but Chapter 2 seems to be "Referring, denoting, and expressing". It would be interesting to hear if anyone finds it useful for understanding Stephen's explanation.
-
- Posts: 3355
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: Should πρὸ δὲ τούτων πάντων read "before all these things" or "above all these things"?
Yes the response to take a Greek class is pretty pat, but it was tailored to our former interlocutor who had been spinning his wheels on B-Greek in self-study for the better part of two decades and never getting anywhere. And if you follow his links, you'll see that the relevant "context" for him is not the linguistic context but a theological structure he is developing (which explains why he cites passages in other books as "context").Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑September 9th, 2021, 5:15 pmFair enough, and that's pretty much the stock answer here. But on the other hand you already used metalanguage in your explanation. I would be interested in seeing how you yourself explain your explanation. "What does non-referential mean" is in my opinion the question which should have been asked immediately by the original poster instead of skipping the explanation. The whole discussion would have been very different.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑September 5th, 2021, 10:13 pm My recommendation is to take a class in Greek and treat it as a language instead of a cipher to be decoded.
That said, I'm beginning to realize just how much competence in the language our lexica and other tools are assuming of its users. Earlier in the thread, I was trying to articulate what I thought was going on in the lexcon extry but it seems to me that without a feel for the language (or metalanguage) it might not be comprehensible.
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑September 9th, 2021, 5:15 pm I don't have motivation to start reading Kroeger now ("Analyzing meaning" linked to above) but Chapter 2 seems to be "Referring, denoting, and expressing". It would be interesting to hear if anyone finds it useful for understanding Stephen's explanation.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia