Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
Forum rules
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Re: Lysias' Λόγος ὑπὲρ τοῦ ἀδυνάτου
I don't agree with the word "cruelty" that you are using for τολμᾶν. It's "brash", "rash", "unpredictable".
Forgive me. I am frequently "two clicks behind." I believe we are on the same page now.
As a side note, in my mind the word "cruelty" covers a lot of ground. It could be extremely bad as in "cruelty to animals" or much closer to neutral when someone says "that is so cruel" when referring lets say to a game of keep-away. I hadn't really thought about it before, though.
Forgive me. I am frequently "two clicks behind." I believe we are on the same page now.
As a side note, in my mind the word "cruelty" covers a lot of ground. It could be extremely bad as in "cruelty to animals" or much closer to neutral when someone says "that is so cruel" when referring lets say to a game of keep-away. I hadn't really thought about it before, though.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
§10 - Lysias 24.10 Text and hints
In Section 10, besides the unfamiliar words, the most difficult thing about this section is deciding which particular sense to take many of these words. To get a feel for that, I suggest that you take this in three steps. First, use your own skill and experience to find your balance and ride this section bareback. Second, go to the dictionary and try to work through the senses that it could be. Third, look at the hints.
Lysias writes an explanation as to why the invalid rides a horse (in our modern terms, he answers the question about how a welfare recipient could possibly be owning a car?!)
Lysias writes an explanation as to why the invalid rides a horse (in our modern terms, he answers the question about how a welfare recipient could possibly be owning a car?!)
Hints for §10: (Read the text first, struggle with the many meanings presented in the dictionary, then use the hints to identify which of them I think is relevent here, you could well disagree.)Lysias, On the refusal of a pension to the invalid 24, 10 wrote:περὶ δὲ τῆς ἐμῆς ἱππικῆς, ἧς οὗτος ἐτόλμησε μνησθῆναι πρὸς ὑμᾶς, οὔτε τὴν τύχην δείσας οὔτε ὑμᾶς αἰσχυνθείς, οὐ πολὺς ὁ λόγος. ἐγὼ γὰρ, ὦ βουλή, πάντας οἶμαι τοὺς ἔχοντάς τι δυστύχημα τοῦτο¹ ζητεῖν καὶ τοῦτο φιλοσοφεῖν, ὅπως ὡς ἀλυπότατα μεταχειριοῦνται τὸ συμβεβηκὸς πάθος. ὧν εἷς ἐγώ, καὶ περιπεπτωκὼς τοιαύτῃ συμφορᾷ ταύτην ἐμαυτῷ ῥᾳστώνην ἐξηῦρον εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς τὰς μακροτέρας τῶν ἀναγκαίων.
¹τοῦτο Stephanus: τοιοῦτο, ῥαστώνην τινα MSS.
- αἰσχυνθείς (+acc. person) - feeling shame before somebody.
- τοῦτο φιλοσοφεῖν - discuss, investigate, study.
- τοῦτο ζητεῖν - inquire into, investigate, examine,.
- ἄλυπος - without pain OR causing no pain or grief.
- μεταχειριοῦνται - manage (a distasteful situation).
- συμβεβηκὸς - resulting.
- περιπεπτωκὼς - having fallen into.
- ῥᾳστώνην - leisure, rest.
- ἐξηῦρον - found after searching diligently / making inquiries.
- εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς τὰς μακροτέρας τῶν ἀναγκαίων - the genitive goes with .
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
§10 - Lysias 24.10 - Several marginal notes
One of the differences between Attic Greek and the Koine Greek that New Testament readers are used to is the multiplicity of senses and constructions that words are used in. For ease of reading, that diversity has been glossed over in our reading so far. It is in fact one of the major difficulties that readers of classical Greek need to devise strategies to overcome. Even the most experienced readers of Classical Greek have to work more closely with the lexicon than is usually needed in reading the New Testament to the same degree of accuracy. Having said that, reading one particular author for a while, one gets a feeling for a particular style, or on a larger scale, a genre or a dialect (if those two are separable terms). Students of New Testament Greek are neither trained nor used to dealing with variations in authorial style. That leads to a them tending to assume a homogeneity in the language which turns the stomach of students of Greek of the classical period. Those students are trained to identify authorial style and more readily pick up on it as difference in that "dimension". Students of New Testament Greek rely on the vague term "difficulty", with approximately Matthew as median point and the Johannine writings at one one end, and Hebrews or 2nd Corinthians at the other. One of the errors that reducing analysis to a simple linear scale (of easy to difficult) is that synonymy is skewed. It can be assumed that all words of a similar meaning do in fact have different meanings. Looking at synonymy with within a framework of analysis that allows for individual variations in authorial style allows more readily for the possibility that there is no difference in meaning at all between synonyms, just that different authors prefer their own different styles, or even that on different days, different people have different buzz-words.
To summarise all that, what we are reading here is Lysias' style. Reading another speech by Lysias will seem more familiar to us after this experience than reading Isocrates, but Lysias and Isocrates will be noticeably more similar to each other than to Xenophon or Demosthenes.
It is not really relevant to this particular section ten, but let's strike out on a tangent for a moment. As we have seen in several of the sections up till now, there is more of a need to guess what the author actually means by what he says. A New Testament trained Hellenist is more likely to approach a Greek text to get the meaning by finding out exactly what the text says. The tendency towards coalescence between what the text says, and what the text means once again reduces the flexibility with which students of New Testament Greek read the Greek language. On the obverse side of the coin, the effect of that is that finding humour, implied meaning, detecting rhetorical statements, irony or sarcasm in the writings of New Testament writers is something that seems forced or even unnatural to the way a text should be analysed. Students of Classical Greek, on reverse side of the coin, will seem blasé about reading things into the text that are not explicitly stated therein. Reading this speech of Lysias shows us that well-written Greek can manage a degree of subtly that good writers and tactful conversationalists in any language can.
I've delayed you for long enough from the reason you are here, so let us begin to tackle this section ...
To summarise all that, what we are reading here is Lysias' style. Reading another speech by Lysias will seem more familiar to us after this experience than reading Isocrates, but Lysias and Isocrates will be noticeably more similar to each other than to Xenophon or Demosthenes.
It is not really relevant to this particular section ten, but let's strike out on a tangent for a moment. As we have seen in several of the sections up till now, there is more of a need to guess what the author actually means by what he says. A New Testament trained Hellenist is more likely to approach a Greek text to get the meaning by finding out exactly what the text says. The tendency towards coalescence between what the text says, and what the text means once again reduces the flexibility with which students of New Testament Greek read the Greek language. On the obverse side of the coin, the effect of that is that finding humour, implied meaning, detecting rhetorical statements, irony or sarcasm in the writings of New Testament writers is something that seems forced or even unnatural to the way a text should be analysed. Students of Classical Greek, on reverse side of the coin, will seem blasé about reading things into the text that are not explicitly stated therein. Reading this speech of Lysias shows us that well-written Greek can manage a degree of subtly that good writers and tactful conversationalists in any language can.
I've delayed you for long enough from the reason you are here, so let us begin to tackle this section ...
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
§10 - Lysias Wes Wood
But the case concerning my horse, as this man brashly mentioned to you, fearing neither fate nor being ashamed before you, is not great. For I, O Council, know all who have this misfortune seek and investigate how to manage the resulting condition with as little pain as possible. I, being one who is also experiencing such misfortune as this, found this relief for myself on [my] necessary longer journeys.
This was challenging and took longer than I anticipated. I wasn't familiar with several of the words in the same phrase in a couple of different places. I feel decently confident.
This was challenging and took longer than I anticipated. I wasn't familiar with several of the words in the same phrase in a couple of different places. I feel decently confident.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
§11 - Lysias 24.11 Text and hints
In contrast to the previous section, here in Section 11, there is a cool-down. It is characterised by its straightforward pedestrian language. I think you will only need 3 words here, and may not immediately recognise one of the forms.
Now they discuss what make of car is suitable for a state welfare recipient to drive.
Now they discuss what make of car is suitable for a state welfare recipient to drive.
Hints for §11: (You may find the following words unfamiliar.)Lysias, On the refusal of a pension to the invalid 24, 11 wrote: ὃ δὲ μέγιστον, ὦ βουλή, τεκμήριον ὅτι διὰ τὴν συμφορὰν ἀλλ᾽ οὐ διὰ τὴν ὕβριν, ὡς οὗτός φησιν, ἐπὶ τοὺς ἵππους ἀναβαίνω ῥᾴδιόν ἐστι μαθεῖν1: εἰ γὰρ ἐκεκτήμην οὐσίαν, ἐπ᾽ ἀστράβης ἂν ὠχούμην, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοτρίους ἵππους ἀνέβαινον: νυνὶ δ᾽ ἐπειδὴ τοιοῦτον οὐ δύναμαι κτήσασθαι, τοῖς ἀλλοτρίοις ἵπποις ἀναγκάζομαι χρῆσθαι πολλάκις.
1 ῥᾴδιόν ἐστι μαθεῖν del. Scheibe.
- ἐκεκτήμην - pluperfect.
- οὐσία - that which is one's own, one's substance, property.
- ἀστράβη - mule saddle
- ὀχεῖν - in Med. and Pass., to be borne or carried, have oneself borne.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Vocabulary
I appreciate the glossing of the vocabulary and have figured out exactly what you mean regarding it. These exercises are often like a puzzle for me. Even for a word that I "know," I have to use a less familiar sense in the passage. There have only been about three sections that I completed with what I would consider "minimal" difficulty, but they have all been manageable. As you say, though, some patterns are emerging.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
Section 11
Now that you have said that I will choke. 

Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
§10 - Feedback - Lysias Wes Wood
Lysias, 24, 10 wrote:περὶ δὲ τῆς ἐμῆς ἱππικῆς, ἧς οὗτος ἐτόλμησε μνησθῆναι πρὸς ὑμᾶς, οὔτε τὴν τύχην δείσας οὔτε ὑμᾶς αἰσχυνθείς, οὐ πολὺς ὁ λόγος. ἐγὼ γὰρ, ὦ βουλή, πάντας οἶμαι τοὺς ἔχοντάς τι δυστύχημα τοῦτο ζητεῖν καὶ τοῦτο φιλοσοφεῖν, ὅπως ὡς ἀλυπότατα μεταχειριοῦνται τὸ συμβεβηκὸς πάθος. ὧν εἷς ἐγώ, καὶ περιπεπτωκὼς τοιαύτῃ συμφορᾷ ταύτην ἐμαυτῷ ῥᾳστώνην ἐξηῦρον εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς τὰς μακροτέρας τῶν ἀναγκαίων.
You have the sense of this.Wes Wood wrote:But the case concerning my horse, as this man brashly mentioned to you, fearing neither fate nor being ashamed before you, is not great. For I, O Council, know all who have this misfortune seek and investigate how to manage the resulting condition with as little pain as possible. I, being one who is also experiencing such misfortune as this, found this relief for myself on [my] necessary longer journeys.
This was challenging and took longer than I anticipated. I wasn't familiar with several of the words in the same phrase in a couple of different places. I feel decently confident.
A few small points:
- Rework the underlined text.
- I think the τοῦτο points BACK to the τι δυστύχημα in both cases.
- I take ὡς with ἀλυπότατα.
- Look in the dictionary or grammar for ὅπως.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
Change of pace 10 -> 11, lineation of puzzles
Stephen Hughes wrote:In contrast to the previous section, ... Section 11, ... is a cool-down.
I think that changing from highfalutin language to pedestrian is often used to make a point clearly and unambiguously.Wes Wood wrote:Now that you have said that I will choke.
The world is non-linear, but language comes in a linear stream. Being a "puzzle" means that our processing of the language and our understanding of the language get confused. That can often leave us confounded.Wes Wood wrote:These exercises are often like a puzzle for me. Even for a word that I "know," I have to use a less familiar sense in the passage. There have only been about three sections that I completed with what I would consider "minimal" difficulty, but they have all been manageable. As you say, though, some patterns are emerging.
The (linear) patterns that emerge (from the puzzle) are you recognising what is normal or at least acceptable in Greek. Going from puzzle to normal is an arduous way to learn a language. My hope - that I mentioned earlier - is that through composition (or conversation) the things that are normal but unfamiliar, will become a little more familiar.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
§11 - Lysias-Wes Wood
"But, O Council, the greatest sign that because of [my] disability but not because of pride, as this man asserts, I ride on horses is easy to learn: for if I had acquired substance [money?] I would be mounted on a mule saddle, and I would not ride on other peoples horses: but now since I am not able to obtain such as this I am compelled many times to take to the horses of others."
εἰ γὰρ ἐκεκτήμην οὐσίαν, ἐπ᾽ ἀστράβης ἂν ὠχούμην, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοτρίους ἵππους ἀνέβαινον
I initially translated the phrase in bold "but I don't. I ride on other people's horses." The rest of the phrase cleared it up for me, but I found my initial reaction to the ἀλλ᾽ here interesting enough to share.
εἰ γὰρ ἐκεκτήμην οὐσίαν, ἐπ᾽ ἀστράβης ἂν ὠχούμην, ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀλλοτρίους ἵππους ἀνέβαινον
I initially translated the phrase in bold "but I don't. I ride on other people's horses." The rest of the phrase cleared it up for me, but I found my initial reaction to the ἀλλ᾽ here interesting enough to share.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ