What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
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What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
The text, from what I have seen, is the same in modern critical versions, as well as the Textus Receptus.
Now I can see the translation of every Greek word, except "τῇ" that is right after ἐν πίστει ζῶ, and right before τοῦ θεοῦ.
I see that it is a dative singular feminine article, but what does it refer to? Faith? that seems kind of awkward.
Now I can see the translation of every Greek word, except "τῇ" that is right after ἐν πίστει ζῶ, and right before τοῦ θεοῦ.
I see that it is a dative singular feminine article, but what does it refer to? Faith? that seems kind of awkward.
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of te in Gal 2:20?
Would it read, "by the faith that is in the Son of God..."?--which would make it a pronoun, and not an article?
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of te in Gal 2:20?
Paul,
The ἐν πίστει is fronted for emphasis. The τῇ does refer back to πίστει, and the genitive phrase the follows tells what kind of faith. I won't get into the argument about what kind of genitive it is, suffice it to say that more than a few books have been written on that!
It's a fairly common Greek construction. If you look at the rest of the genitive phrase, you'll see it happening again: the τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος refers back to τοῦ υἱοῦ, with the τοῦ θεοῦ intervening.
It's not really a relative, but in English we would probably say it something like you did: I live in/by/through faith, that is, the faith… But you do lose the emphasis somewhat that Greek used by fronting the phrase
HTH,
James
The ἐν πίστει is fronted for emphasis. The τῇ does refer back to πίστει, and the genitive phrase the follows tells what kind of faith. I won't get into the argument about what kind of genitive it is, suffice it to say that more than a few books have been written on that!
It's a fairly common Greek construction. If you look at the rest of the genitive phrase, you'll see it happening again: the τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος refers back to τοῦ υἱοῦ, with the τοῦ θεοῦ intervening.
It's not really a relative, but in English we would probably say it something like you did: I live in/by/through faith, that is, the faith… But you do lose the emphasis somewhat that Greek used by fronting the phrase
HTH,
James
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of te in Gal 2:20?
Yes. You can get some of that emphasis and word order back, I think, with a different translation strategy:James Spinti wrote: ↑July 19th, 2023, 7:54 pm It's not really a relative, but in English we would probably say it something like you did: I live in/by/through faith, that is, the faith… But you do lose the emphasis somewhat that Greek used by fronting the phrase
ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ
In faith I live - [faith] in the Son of God ...
Here, I am translating τῇ with "faith", which it refers to. In English, we can't say "In faith I live - the in the Son of God ...", and I don't think it would be quite right to say "In faith I live - the [faith] in the Son of God. So I think "In faith I live - faith in the Son of God ..." comes close.
And as you point out, it could be "in the Son of God", "through the Son of God", "by the Son of God" ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
Thanks, both of those explanations were helpful.
I do have one more question, about the initial words of this verse—zo de ouketi ego. The KJV treats this as two separate phrases (“Nevertheless I live, yet not I…”) whereas even the NKJV follows modern translations as interpreting it as one phrase (“It is no longer I who live…”). The Greek readings for the Textus Receptus & modern critical editions are the same here, so what would you say: are both acceptable renderings of the Greek? Or is one to be preferred? The theological significance to me, would be the same, regardless, but I was just wondering.
Also, how do you get a Greek font in your posts? I tried pasting text that had a Greek font in MS Word, and it came out gibberish.
I do have one more question, about the initial words of this verse—zo de ouketi ego. The KJV treats this as two separate phrases (“Nevertheless I live, yet not I…”) whereas even the NKJV follows modern translations as interpreting it as one phrase (“It is no longer I who live…”). The Greek readings for the Textus Receptus & modern critical editions are the same here, so what would you say: are both acceptable renderings of the Greek? Or is one to be preferred? The theological significance to me, would be the same, regardless, but I was just wondering.
Also, how do you get a Greek font in your posts? I tried pasting text that had a Greek font in MS Word, and it came out gibberish.
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of te in Gal 2:20?
No. You have to look at the Greek to understand the Greek. Guessing at it from English translations simply doesn't work.Paul Rittman wrote: ↑July 19th, 2023, 7:22 pm Would it read, "by the faith that is in the Son of God..."?--which would make it a pronoun, and not an article?
But the Greek article sometimes does function like an English pronoun.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
Copy from a web page, e.g.Paul Rittman wrote: ↑July 20th, 2023, 9:23 am Also, how do you get a Greek font in your posts? I tried pasting text that had a Greek font in MS Word, and it came out gibberish.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=SBLGNT
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
How do you read this phrase? Can you ask your question in terms of the Greek words, not English translations?Paul Rittman wrote: ↑July 20th, 2023, 9:23 am I do have one more question, about the initial words of this verse—zo de ouketi ego.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
I'll try. My question is if we can separate the four Greek words into two short phrases--first ζῶ δὲ, and then οὐκέτι ἐγώ. Taking ζῶ δὲ as its own phrase would give us, "nevertheless I live;" and taking οὐκέτι ἐγώ as a separate phrase would give us "no longer [do] I." Or is this not even a possible translation? I'm asking because it appears that the KJV does this, and attempts to render the four Greek words as two short phrases.
Or, if one is going to read all four words as one sentence, as modern translations do, then the δὲ is simply an untranslated particle, and it leads to "I no longer live..."
This is the SBL Greek, linked to above.
ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ, ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός· ὃ δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ [a]υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.
Or, if one is going to read all four words as one sentence, as modern translations do, then the δὲ is simply an untranslated particle, and it leads to "I no longer live..."
This is the SBL Greek, linked to above.
ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ, ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός· ὃ δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ἐν πίστει ζῶ τῇ τοῦ [a]υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.
Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2023, 10:39 amHow do you read this phrase? Can you ask your question in terms of the Greek words, not English translations?Paul Rittman wrote: ↑July 20th, 2023, 9:23 am I do have one more question, about the initial words of this verse—zo de ouketi ego.
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Re: What is purpose and meaning of τῇ in Gal 2:20?
Thanks. I just used that link you gave me, to paste the Greek into the post immediately above this one.
Jonathan Robie wrote: ↑July 20th, 2023, 10:38 amCopy from a web page, e.g.Paul Rittman wrote: ↑July 20th, 2023, 9:23 am Also, how do you get a Greek font in your posts? I tried pasting text that had a Greek font in MS Word, and it came out gibberish.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=SBLGNT