b-greek-digest V1 #526
b-greek-digest Wednesday, 28 December 1994 Volume 01 : Number 526
In this issue:
Re: Paradise ( was Thief)
From: William Raines <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 10:24:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Paradise/Thief
David L. Moore <Dvdmoore@aol.com> wrote:
> It is also worth noting, that the "thief" (He was probably a Jewish
>freedom fighter rather than a thief as such.) asked for the Lord's help in
>some remote future: "when you come in (EIS) your kingdom." Jesus answered
>that the recompense of the man's faith is to be immediate - that very day!
(1) I thought lEstEs was the usual word to use when one wanted to hint that
someone was a freedom-fighter or accused of being such, e.g. Luke 22:52. In
chapter 23, Luke uses kakourgos [evil-doer]. Further, the penitent criminal
admits that his condemnation is the just reward for his deeds - an unlikely
statement from a political terrorist.
(2) Is it grammatically possible to attach sEmeron either to the previous
words of Jesus ["Truly, I say to you ..."] or to the thief's previous
request ["... when you come in your kingdom"]? That is, might one translate
23:43 something like:
"Truly, today I say to you, you will be with me in paradise"
which would make it a statement that Jesus can determine the man's salvation
now, no need to wait for judgement at the parousia. Or, alternatively, gloss
the phrase as
"Today is the day I will come into my kingdom and you will ..."?
I guess this is pretty unlikely, but it would fit in with some sort of
Albert Schweitzer type eschatological understanding.
(3) What, if any, is the relationship between paradise and the peculiar
eschatology of Luke 16:19-31? Should "Abraham's bosom" be understood as a
synonym for paradise?
The Revd. William Raines || Tel: 061-224 1310
197 Old Hall Lane || Email:
Manchester M14 6HJ || email@example.com
United Kingdom || firstname.lastname@example.org
From: Vincent Broman <email@example.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 17:16:45 PST
Subject: Re: Paradise ( was Thief)
> ...the Lord's answer to the evildoer crucified together with
> Him is a promise of being together with Him in the heavenly realm.
Some of the posts about PARADEISOS seem to implicitly make assumptions
(perhaps based on protestant beliefs) which may be visible only to
someone who does not share all those beliefs, i.e. the assumptions
(1) that in the spiritual realm there is just one "good place" which = heaven,
and (2) that people are judged and sent to their final destination
immediately after death. Perhaps not.
If on Easter Jesus said:
(Jn 20:17) MH MOU APTOU, OUPW GAR ANABEBHKA PROS TON PATERA MOU
and EIPE AUTOIS ANABAINW PROS TON PATERA...
then it seems that he had not yet on Sunday morning risen to the
immediate presence of his Father, even though he had spent some time
on Friday with the dead thief in Paradise. Those seem to be
two different places: PARADEISW in Luke 23 and where the Father is in John 20.
This seems to fit in with traditions of Christ's harrowing of "hell",
i.e. his descent into the world of the dead to liberate the OT prophets
and other righteous proto-christians, perhaps including the repentant thief.
The reference to 2 Cor 12:2-4 is interesting in referring to Paradise
in a way that more-or-less equates EIS TON PARADEISON with
EWS TRITOU OURANOU. I've wondered whether "TRITOU" counts third from
the top down or from the bottom up, and whether the total count of heavens
being considered was three, seven, or some other number.
In any case there were other heavens that Paul conceived of besides
the one his friend visited, which Paul called Paradise.
I've heard a number of times (generally from Jehovah's Witnesses)
the suggestion that a comma follows SHMERON in
AMHN LEGW SOI SHMERON MET EMOU ESH EN TW PARADEISW (Lu 23:43).
The J.W.s and similar-thinking groups _need_ to put a comma after SHMERON
because they believe there is no conscious existence apart from
a physical body, i.e. between death and resurrection there is no spiritual
continuity of identity and experience. On that Friday, the thief was dying
in agony and then he was NOT. This theological need makes the comma suspect.
No one here has mentioned any grammatical reason SHMERON could not relate
to LEGW instead of ESH. I don't know of any. It seems rhetorically
very left-handed to give a weak phrase like LEGW SOI two modifiers:
AMHN and SHMERON both. And it seems unlikely that the point of Jesus'
utterance was its timing, as if he meant: "you knew I could grant you
a boon like a visit in paradise, but, hey, I'm going to give you
that promise right on the spot, without any further signatures needed!"
That interpretation seems very strained, and it misses the main point:
that even a man being being hanged could have hope by turning to Christ.
Vincent Broman, code 572 Bayside Phone: +1 619 553 1641
Naval Command Control and Ocean Surveillance Center, RDT&E Div.
San Diego, CA 92152-6147, USA Email: firstname.lastname@example.org
End of b-greek-digest V1 #526
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