b-greek-digest V1 #552

b-greek-digest            Sunday, 22 January 1995      Volume 01 : Number 552

In this issue:

        *Pistis Christou* bibliography
        Camel or Rope and Pastorals 
        language requirement summary
        Re: eph. 2:8-9 
        Re: Entry Level Greek texts
        Re: eph. 2:8-9


From: Timothy Gaden <tjg@hermes.apana.org.au> 
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 16:14:26
Subject: *Pistis Christou* bibliography

Since this question has bene raised, I've taken the liberty of
posting my working bibliography in the hope that, (i) those who are
interested will be able to find the material more easily, and (ii) if
I've missed anything important, some one might tell me.

I hope this is helpful.


D.A. Campbell, *The Rhetoric of Righteousness in Romans 3:21-26* JNST Supp. 65, (Sheffield:  Sheffield Academic Press, 1992) esp. pp. 58-69, 214-218

C. Cosgrove, "Justification in Paul: A Linguistic and Theological Reflection"
*JBL* 106 (1987) 653-670 

J.D.G. Dunn, "Once More, *Pistis Christou*" *JBL Seminar Papers 1991* 
(Atlanta, GA: Scholars Press, 1991) pp. 731-744

R.. Harrisville, "*Pistis Christou* Witness of the Fathers" *Novum 
Testamentum* 36 (1994) 234-241

D. Hay, "*Pistis* as 'Ground for Faith' in Hellenised Judaism and Paul" 
*JBL* 108 (1989) 461-476

R.B. Hays, *The Faith of Christ* SBL Dissertation Series 52 (Chico, CA: 
Scholars Press, 1983)

R.B. Hays, "*Pistis* and Pauline Christology:  What is at Stake?" *JBL 
Seminar Papers 1991* (Atlanta, GA: Scholars Press, 1991)  pp. 714-729

M. Hooker, "*Pistis Christou*" *NTS* 35 (1989) 321-342

A.J. Hultgren, "The *Pistis Christou* Formulation in Paul" *Novum 
Testamentum* 22 (1980) 248-263

L.T. Johnson, "Rom 3:21026 and the Faith of Jesus" *CBQ* 44 (1982) 77-90

L. Keck, "'Jesus' in Romans" *JBL* 108 (1989) 443-460

D.R. Lindsay, *Josephus and Faith: *Pistis* and *pisteuein* as Faith 
Terminology in the Writings of Flavius Josephus and in the New 
Testament* (Leiden: E,J, Brill, 1993)

D.R. Lindsay, "The Roots and Development of the *pist-* Word Group as 
Faith Terminology" *JSNT* 49 (1993) 103-118  [Summary of Book]

B. Longenecker, "*Pistis* in Romans 3:25: Neglected Evidence for the 
'Faithfulness of Christ'"  *NTS* 39 (1993) 478-480

P.T. O'Brien, "Justification in Paul and Some Crucial Issues of the 
Last Two Decades" in D.A. Carson (ed), *Right With God: Justification 
in the Bible and the World* (Torquay, UK: Paternoster Press, 1992) pp. 69-95  

E.P. Sanders, *Paul* (Oxford: OUP, 1991) Esp. Chaps 6 + 7, pp. 45-77

E.P. Sanders, '"Paul", Chapter 5 in *Paul and Palestinian Judaism* 
(London: SCM Press, 1977) pp. 431 ff

S. Stowers, "*ek pisteOs* and *dia tEs pisteOs* in Romans 3:30" 
*JBL* 108 (1989) 665-674

Sam K. Williams, "Again *Pistis Christou*", *CBQ* 49 (1987) 431-447


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Gaden - tjg@hermes.apana.org.au - Melbourne, Australia
- -------------------------------------------------------------- 


From: DDDJ@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 09:12:00 -0500
Subject: Camel or Rope and Pastorals 

I understand the same problem occurs in aramaic where If memmory serves d
results in rope but gamma results in camel (or is it the other way around).
The pesshitta says rope

as to Pauline authorship of the Pastorals, I do not think we have enough data
to determine it. There are major differences but are these due to other
things beside authorship. I see profound differences in my own writings over
just a few years, 


From: Mari Olsen <molsen@astrid.ling.nwu.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 11:54:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: language requirement summary

Long delayed summary to my original question on seminary 
language requirements.  I hope I didn't miss/misrepresent 
anyone:  my up- and down-loading software has been misfiring...

Original question.

Out of curiosity (and linguistic and perhaps employment interest),
what are the language requirements for Greek and  Hebrew in 
seminariesthese days.  I was surprised to find that Garrett 
Seminary (affiliated with Northwestern U. here) had none.  Let 
me rephrase that question (and you can reply to me, and I'll 
summarize to the list, rather than cluttering up the list with these 
messages):  what is the requirement at YOUR institution, say, for 
an M.Div.?

Travis Bauer(bauer@acc.jc.edu):

year.  They have no pre-requisites, but you have to learn at least 
Greek in Seminary.

Any MISSOURI SYNOD SEMINARY requires Greek and Hebrew 
as pre-requisites to the MDiv program.  These would be: 
Concordia Seminary in Fort Wayne, Indiana and St. Louis, 
Missouri...To get in, you have to pass a proficiency exam.  No 
actual college credit is necessary, technically.  In practice, most 
students take an intensive six week course in each language to 
learn the basics.  These are very intense classes with hours of 
lecture each day and hours of homework each night.  It is 
equivalent to one semester of each language.

Jeffrey (Jeff) A. D. Weima, Professor of NT 

we require incoming students to have completed two years of 
Greek. Once they arrive, they receive intensive courses in Hebrew.

The topic of linguistic requirements is a hot topic. For there is 
always the pressures of recruitment that are somewhat at odds 
with our high standards of undergraduate work. It is sometimes 
difficult to compete with seminaries that require no previous 
work in the original languages of the Bible.

Michael Moss, Director of Graduate Bible Studies 

One year of Greek grammar, one reading course, one exegesis 
course in NT based one Greek.  One year of Hebrew grammar

Paul J. Bodin (pjbodin@ocf.Berkeley.EDU):

work) requires Greek competence for an M.Div., but not
Hebrew.  UNION SEMINARY IN NEW YORK (where I study) 
does not *require* either Greek or Hebrew for the M.Div., unless 
the thesis is in the Biblical Field (in which case the language 
corresponding to the thesis area is required). 

Doctoral students in the biblical area here in BERKELEY are 
required to  demonstrate competence in both Greek and Hebrew.  
Doctoral students at UNION are required to pass somewhate more 
difficult tests in both Greek and Hebrew *and* demonstrate 
competence in Aramaic.

Andy Smith
Associate Professor of Bible
Chair: Division of Bible, Religion, and Ministries 

associated with Cornerstone College), the equivalent of two years 
of Greek is required of all entering M.Div. seminarians.  Those 
who do not have such are required to take a year of "remedial" 
Greek (the equivalent of 2 years in college).  For those who have 
had Greek at another institution, the Seminary offers an entrance 
exam, the main ingredients of which are the ability to translate 
and parse a text within one hour and with no lexical aids.  The 
entire Hebrew curriculum, on the other hand, is a part of the 
M.Div. seminary course work.

Philip L. Graber (pgraber@unix.cc.emory.edu)

BRITE DIVINITY SCHOOL (TCU): no language requirement
CANDLER SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY (Emory): no language 

You will probably find that all of the Presbyterian seminaries 
require one term each of Greek and Hebrew plus one exegesis 
course in each Testament that presuppose the language, because 
those are the requirements for ordination in the Presbyterian 
Church (USA).

...[i.e.] The seminaries that I am familiar with usually have 
intensive courses (e.g. a summer full of Greek). I think that they 
are probably equivalent to a year of normal courses, then the 
exegesis course, but they may do more Greek than Hebrew.

Steve Waechter (swaechter@utmem1.utmem.edu)

The M.Div. at Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary 
(Memphis TN) requires two years of Greek and one year of 
Hebrew.  These courses meet for one hour per day, four days per 
week, for 32 weeks.

Glenn Wooden (wooden@acadiau.ca)

At Acadia Divinity College we require First Year Greek in which 
we cover the basic grammar and do some additional reading of 
texts in the last two weeks.  Hebrew is an elective course.

Jim Brownson (Brownsonj@hope.edu)

Western Theological Seminary is a small denominational school 
of approximately 150 students in West Michigan.  Basic 
competency (the equivalent of a _solid_ year of training) in Greek 
is required as aprerequisite for admission.  Ifstudents have not 
had Greek, they take it intensively as a summer course.Hebrew is 
taught in the first year as a required course.  Almost all upper 
level courses make use of the original languages.


...the two seminaries with which I am 
affiliated (one as faculty, one as doctoral student) require:

Calvary Theol. Sem., Kansas City, MDiv:
	Greek 2 years (ttl. 16 sem. hours),
	Hebrew: 2 years (16 sem. hrs.)
 -- if the student enters with one year of Greek, he can take three 
years total

Central Baptist Sem., Minneapolis, MDiv: 
	Greek: 3 years (ttl. 17 sem. hrs.) --only 2 yrs. (11 hrs.) if
		w/ 1 yr. Greek)
	Hebrew: 2 yrs.T)

Joe Abrahamson (theojoe@aol.com)

My seminary, Bethany Evangelical Lutheran Seminary, Mankato, 
Minnesota, requires 2 years of Greek and 2 years of Hebrew before 
anyone can apply.  Every semester there is an exegetical course 
which requires either Hebrew or Greek. Papers that show the 
student didn't investigate the Hebrew or Greek are frowned 

Greg Carey, Graduate Department of Religion, Vanderbilt U.  

As Mari gathered, seminary language requirements vary.  Most 
mainline denominations require some language work.  
Presbyterian seminaries, I believe, require the equivalent of a year 
each of Hebrew and Greek.  Southern Baptist seminaries, which 
once required nine hours of Hebrew and Greek, now have 
without-languages M.Divs.  Many divinity schools like Vanderbilt 
don't require the languages, but offer them for students who (a) 
want them or (b) need them for ordination.

Pat Tiller (ptiller@husc.harvard.edu)

Harvard Div School requires (for M. Div.) intermediate level 
competence in one language, usually Greek, Hebrew, Latin, 
German, French, or Spanish.  Students can freely petition to 
substitute another language.  Presbyterians, Lutherans, and some 
others take Greek and/or Hebrew because of denominational 
requirements for ordination.

Bill (mounce@macsbbs.spk.wa.us)

I am no longer teaching in the [Azusa Pacific] University, but we 
had no Greek requirement even for a major. It has been my 
experience that most seminaries have an English and a Greek 
track. As you move into the more "evangelical" schools you
tend to find higher language requirements. A generalization, but 
one that seems to be generally true

Dan G. McCartney (dmccartney@shrsys.hslc.org)

At Westminster Seminary in Phila we require a "reading 
knowledge" of both Greek and Hebrew.  "Reading knowledge" is
supposed to be the ability to translate material of average difficulty

with minimal use of a lexicon.  Most students meet this 
requirement by way of 10 semester hours of instruction in 
grammar and reading in both languages, plus
exegetical work in both languages during the course of their 
program.  For MDiv there are three required NT and three 
required OT courses plus Hermeneutics, all of which have the 
languages as pre-requisites.  

Aramaic is offered as an elective.

Dan G. McCartney, Assoc. Prof. of NT 

Stephen Michaels, Reference Librarian

Here at Biblical Theological Seminary, the MDiv requires 4 
quarters each of Greek and Hebrew in all programs.  Furthermore, 
some of the programs require another quarter of Hebrew exegesis.  
There are also courses that deal more specifially with exegesis of 
major Biblical genres (Synoptics, Prophets,  Poets, Johannine 
literature and Catholic epistles, Pauline epistles, etc.)...

Calvin L. Porter, Professor of NT (CPORTER@Butler.EDU)

At Christian Theological Seminary in Indianapolis we do not 
require either of the biblical languages for the MDiv degree.  We 
do offer Greek and Hebrew on a regular basis and have a fair 
number of students who take them...

David L. Turner (dturner@cornerstone.edu)

...Here at G[RAND] R[APIDS] B[APTIST] S[EMINARY] we require 
16 semester hours each of Hebrew and Grek in he M.Div.  That 
sounds like more than it is though.  Both language programs 
involve 2 semesters of grammar (4+3 sem. hours) followed by 
three courses (each 3 sem. hours) in exegetical method, exegesis, 
and biblical theology.  SO in both Greek and Hebrew students get a 
year of grammar followed by courses which approach the various 
genres of OT and NT assuming basic language competence and 
requiring students to do exegetical and biblical theological work 
with the languages.


From: Dvdmoore@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 17:35:05 -0500
Subject: Re: eph. 2:8-9 

cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu (Carl W. Conrad) wrote:

>     On the other hand, there is the phrasing that is, I think more 
>characteristic of Johannine usage, PISTEUEIN EIS IHSOUN >XRISTON or even 
>PISTEUEIN EIS TO ONOMA IHSOU XRISTOU, where cognitive acknowledgement 
>definitely does come into play.

     You might also want to consider cases of PISTEUEIN O(TI . . . .  eg. I
Jhn. 5:1, 5.  In these, the cognitive acknowledgement is explicit.

David L. Moore


From: mounce <mounce@macs_bbs.uwsa.spk.wa.us>
Date: 21 Jan 1995 21:22:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Entry Level Greek texts

To all,

dturner is right. My text book would probably be overkill for someone wanting
to know just the basics of Greek, just enough to use the tools. As it
happens, I am discussing with Zondervan the creation of tools for learning
"Baby Greek." Learn just enough Greek to know how to use the tools. Of
course, this course could also be named, "Learn enough Greek to be really
dangerous!" Actually, it would be a clever title.

It would help me to know what you all think about this type of class. It
seems a lot of schools are teaching it, but there are no recent tools. It was
good to see the ones listed in this thread.

Or to reask the question: What should be taught in a "Baby Greek" class so
the students, at the end of the class, could have a basic understanding of
Greek that would allow them to use the good tools, good commentaries, good
word studies? Or do you think the goal of the class should be different?

Bill Mounce
                    Bulletin Board Of Politics State Local & National
                        BBs 509-325-1058  Fax 509-325-9821        
                      First Class V2.5 14.4 Courier HST/DS v32bis   


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 20:36:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: eph. 2:8-9

On Sat, 21 Jan 1995 Dvdmoore@aol.com wrote:
> cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu (Carl W. Conrad) wrote:
> >     On the other hand, there is the phrasing that is, I think more 
> >characteristic of Johannine usage, PISTEUEIN EIS IHSOUN >XRISTON or even 
> >PISTEUEIN EIS TO ONOMA IHSOU XRISTOU, where cognitive acknowledgement 
> >definitely does come into play.
>      You might also want to consider cases of PISTEUEIN O(TI . . . .  eg. I
> Jhn. 5:1, 5.  In these, the cognitive acknowledgement is explicit.

That is no doubt true. Of course John's gospel makes the most of 
revelation as something one apprehends by deep vision. Raymond Brown has 
an interesting list of the special verbs of vision and apprehension in 
the appendix to volume 2 of his commentary. 

I certainly do acknowledge the instance cited in one reply regarding 
Abraham's believing God and this faith being reckoned as righteousness as 
expressing a fundamental Pauline notion. On the other hand, it seems to 
me that Abraham's belief is a matter of trust in the God who promises, 
which is not quite the same thing as cognitive apprehension or commitment.

What I put down very quickly in my post yesterday was the result of a 
very rapid glance at the Handkonkordanz, just some observations and very 
incomplete ones at that. I think we may all look forward with interest to 
our Australian friend's dissertation, and in the meantime, we have his 
"working bibliography" as a "pledge" to chew on, gratefully. 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: William Brooks <wjbrooks@olympus.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 20:40:43 -0800

I'm sorry, but someone (Steve I believe the name is) on AOL asked for the
almah offer.  Unfortunately, Steve (?) I lost your address. Can you contact
me again?  Thanks.



From: georgakis christos a <georgaki@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 23:09:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [none]

subscribe b-greek-digest georgaki@uiuc.edu


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