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b-greek-digest V1 #554




b-greek-digest            Tuesday, 24 January 1995      Volume 01 : Number 554

In this issue:

        Re: Entry Level Greek texts
        Re: Eph 2:8, "Faithfulness" 
        Re: Pastoral epistles inquiry/lexical statistics
        Eph 2:8-9
        [none]
        re: Baby Greek Tools
        Re: Camel or rope? 
        Re:  Eph 2:8, "Faithfulness"
        Re: Entry Level Greek texts
        To: b-greek@virginia.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Pat Tiller <ptiller@husc.harvard.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 10:15:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Entry Level Greek texts

On 21 Jan 1995, mounce wrote:

> Or to reask the question: What should be taught in a "Baby Greek" class so
> the students, at the end of the class, could have a basic understanding of
> Greek that would allow them to use the good tools, good commentaries, good
> word studies? Or do you think the goal of the class should be different?
> 
Since many tools, commentaries, word studies, etc. are not "good," it 
seems that one of the essential elements of such a class would be some 
information on general linguistics as well as principles of Greek syntax 
and lexicography.  This may give students at least a chance of being able 
to tell when they are reading nonsense.

Pat Tiller
Harvard Divinity School

------------------------------

From: Dvdmoore@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 12:07:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Eph 2:8, "Faithfulness" 

BBezdek@aol.com (Byron T. [Tab] Bezdek) translated and wrote:

>It is by Grace you have been saved through FAITHFULNESS, and this not from
>yourselves, it is the gift of God - not from works [your works, but from God
>through Jesus Christ as Paul has just explained {1:6-8ff, 2:7] so that no
one
>can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ for good works
[to
>be faithful] which God previously prepared for us to do. [He prepared this
by
>means of his plan of salvation which Paul has just explained].

>I find no dificulty in translating DIA PISTEWS as faithfulness in verse 8. I
>think it is also apropriate for the aorist active particple PISTEUSANTES in
>1.13. although it is difficult to put into
>our vernacular, perhaps "having been faithful,"

     One problem with the translation above is that the English translation
(and apparently your theological point of view) construes "this" (Some
translations use "that.") in v. 8 in apposition to "FAITHFULNESS" whereas
TOUTO does not agree in gender with PISTEWS, the latter being feminine and
the former neuter.  Neuter gender is often used to indicate something
unspecific and wide in its reference (eg. TA PANTA).  Here, TOUTO probably
refers to the whole concept or process of salvation, which comes from God.  A
neuter pronoun can be used to refer to a noun of another gender, but the
reference, then, is nonspecific and general, unless the neuter pronoun has
the article, which it does not have here.  (See Blass-DeBrunner, #131.)  

     Also, in reference to the use of the aorist participle of PISTEUW in
Eph. 1:13, since the aorist participle normally implies action previous to
the main verb, it is unlikely that Paul would imply that faithful action
(i.e. the fruit of slavation) would be manifest before the work of the Holy
Spirit.  Nevertheless, this is how the verse would read if PISTEUSANTES is
understood as "having been faithful."  Paul's theology consistently makes
righteous action a fruit of salvation which is dependent on it.

     Although the word PISTIS can mean "faithfulness," that doesn't appear to
be its meaning in the passages from Ephesians cited here.

David L. Moore

------------------------------

From: Stephen Carlson <scc@reston.icl.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 95 10:08:35 EST
Subject: Re: Pastoral epistles inquiry/lexical statistics

Greg Doudna wrote:
> Would you be able to provide data on 2 Thessalonians (and
> 1 Thessalonians) compared to the rest of the Pauline
> (particularly your pc 7 core Paulines) corpus?  [Greedy,
> aren't I?  :-) ]  And Philippians?

Appended to this message is the data for the epistles in the
NT.  I had originally organized the Pauline corpus into three
groups based upon my reading of the scholarly consensus of their
authenticity.  It is quite apparent from my data that q2 (2
Thess) which I originally placed in Pe (Pauline Epistles) should
belong in Pc (Pauline Core, i.e., almost completely uncontested
autheniticity).  Philippians comes across in this data as
Pauline as any other in the core.

2 Thessalonians has 17% of its contacts with 1 Thessalonians. 
This may indicate the same author (cf. Galations, 19% with
Romans, or a literary dependency, further investigation is
required.  Ephesians and Colossians also show quite a close
affinity with their third order contacts.  I did delve into the
exclusively shared vocabulary between Eph. and Col., and I'd say
that most of those words were used in different context, so the
first-order similarity cannot be attributed to a literary
dependency.

**************************************************************************
Key:

Pc - Pauline "Core"   Pe - Pauline Epistles   Pa - Pastorals  Others
rm - Romans           ep - Ephesians          t1 - 1 Timothy  hb - Hebrews
c1 - 1 Corinthians    co - Colossians         t2 - 2 Timothy  jm - James
c2 - 2 Corinthians    q2 - 2 Thessalonians    tt - Titus      p1 - 1 Peter
ga - Galations                                                p2 - 2 Peter
pp - Philippians                                              j1 - 1 John, etc.
q1 - 1 Thessalonians                                          jd - Jude
pm - Philemon

*******************************************************************************
Lexical Contacts -- Order 3

Bk  Tot Mt La(lk ac) Qq Mk(mk) Jn(Je jn) Pp(Pc Pe Pa) hb jm Pt(p1 p2) jd Jr(rv)
rm  715  5 14( 6  7)  2  4( 2) 10( 3  7) 50(32 12  3)  5  3  3( 2  1)  .  4( 4)
c1  628  6 16( 8  8)  2  6( 3) 10( 2  8) 49(32 13  2)  2  2  1( 1  .)  .  3( 3)
c2  437  4 16( 6  9)  1  4( 3) 10( 2  8) 56(37 12  3)  2  2  2( 2  .)  .  3( 3)
ga  277  5 10( 2  8)  .  6( 3)  7( .  6) 63(48 11  2)  2  1  1( .  1)  .  3( 2)
pp  177  2 11( 3  7)  1  3( 2)  8( 1  7) 69(44 19  3)  2     2( 1  1)  1  2( 1)
q1  213  3 14( 4  7)  .  2( 1)  9( 2  7) 62(28 28  2)  .  2  4( 1  2)  .  4( 3)
pm   49     4( 4   )     4( 2)  8( 4  4) 84(43 29  2)         (     )      (  )

ep  337  3  9( 3  6)  1  6( 3)  6( 2  4) 66(30 30  1)  3  .  1( 1   )  1  2( 2)
co  273  3 11( 5  5)     3( 1)  5( 2  4) 71(25 40  1)  1     2( 1  1)     3( 3)
q2  126  2 12( 7  5)  2  3( 2)  9( 1  8) 66(45 13  2)  1     3( 2  2)     2( 2)

t1  131  2 16( 6  9)     4( 2)  8( 3  5) 60(15  5 29)  2  2  3( 3   )  2  3( 2)
t2  149  3  9( 4  4)  2  3( 1)  7(    7) 68(24  7 28)  3  1  1( 1   )  1  1( 1)
tt   76  4  8( 4  4)     4( 4)  4( 1  3) 70(22  5 36)     1  5( 5   )     4( 4)
Pa  237  4 19( 8 10)  1  5( 3) 11( 3  8) 46(33 13   )  3  3  4( 4   )  2  4( 3)

hb  375  4 29(12 14)  1  7( 3) 10( 1 10) 36(25  8  2)     2  1( 1  1)  .  9( 8)
jm  175  5 17( 5  9)  2  7( 2)  6( 1  5) 41(33  5  3)  5     8( 8   )  1  9( 7)
p1  161  4 15( 5  9)  1  6( 1)  5( 2  3) 53(30 14  6)  1  9  1(    1)  1  3( 3)
p2   82  4 22( 6 16)  1  7( 4) 15( 4 11) 34(24  6   )  4     2( 2   )  7  4( 2)
j1  286  4 12( 5  5)  2  5( 3) 46( 3 42) 20(14  4  1)  1  1  1( 1  .)  1  8( 6)
j2   57  2  9( 7  2)     9( 7) 53(26 26) 25(14  7  2)        2(    2)     2( 2)
j3   32  3 13( 6  6)  3  6( 3) 41(22 19) 31(22  6  3)        3(    3)      (  )
jd   44    20( 9  9)  5   (  ) 11( 5  7) 39(18 11  9)  2  2 18( 5 14)     2( 2)
*******************************************************************************

*******************************************************************
Lexical Contacts -- Order 3

Bk  Tot Pc(rm c1 c2 ga pp q1 pm Pc) Pe(ep co q2 Pe) Pa(t1 t2 tt Pa)
rm  715 32(    9  8  7  3  1  1  3) 12( 3  2  2  5)  3( 1  2  1  .)
c1  628 32(11     7  5  2  2  .  5) 13( 5  2  1  6)  2( .  .  1   )
c2  437 36(12 10     3  3  3  1  5) 12( 3  3  1  5)  3( 1  2  .   )
ga  277 47(19 12  5     3  2  1  7) 11( 2  1  .  8)  2( .  1  1   )
pp  177 42(12  7  8  4     5  1  7) 19( 3  2  2 12)  3( 1  2      )
q1  213 28( 4  7  5  2  4        5) 28( 4  4 10 10)  2( .  .  .  1)
pm   49 43( 8  4 12  4  4       10) 29(    8    20)  2( 2         )

ep  337 30( 5  9  4  1  1  2     7) 30(   20  1  9)  1( 1  1  .   )
co  273 24( 5  4  4  1  1  3  1  5) 40(25     1 14)  1(    .     .)
q2  126 45( 9  5  3  1  3 17     8) 13( 2  3     9)  2( 1        1)

t1  131 15( 3  2  5  1  2  1  1  2)  5( 2     1  2) 29(   18  7  4)
t2  149 24( 9  2  5  1  3  1     3)  7( 1  1     5) 28(16     9  3)
tt   76 22( 7  7  1  3     1     4)  5( 1        4) 36(12 17     7)
Pa  237 32(11  4  6  2  3  2  .  5) 13( 2  1  1  9)   

hb  375 25(10  4  3  1  1  .     5)  8( 2  1  .  4)  2( 1  1      )
jm  175 33(12  7  4  2     2     5)  5( 1        4)  3( 1  1  1  1)
p1  161 30(11  4  5  1  1  2     7) 14( 2  2  1  7)  6( 2  1  2  1)
p2   82 24( 7  4  2  4  1  6      )  6(    2  2  1)   (           )
j1  286 13( 5  4  1  .  1  1  .  1)  4( 1  1  .  2)  1( 1     .   )
j2   57 14( 2  2  5        4     2)  7( 4  2     2)  2(          2)
j3   32 19( 9              3  3  6)  6( 3  3      )  3( 3         )
jd   44 18( 5  2  2  2  2  2     2) 11( 7        5)  9( 7  2      )
*******************************************************************

Of the non-Paulines, 1 Peter and James comes the closest to the
other Paulines.  Could this be due to a shared amanuensis, such
as Silas/Silvanus?

Stephen Carlson
- -- 
Stephen Carlson     :  Poetry speaks of aspirations,  : ICL, Inc.
scc@reston.icl.com  :  and songs chant the words.     : 11490 Commerce Park Dr.
(703) 648-3330      :                 Shujing 2:35    : Reston, VA  22091   USA

------------------------------

From: Travis Bauer <bauer@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 11:10:50 -36000
Subject: Eph 2:8-9

On Sun, 22 Jan 1995 BBezdek@aol.com wrote:
 
> 
> It is by Grace you have been saved through FAITHFULNESS, and this not from
> yourselves, it is the gift of God - not from works [your works, but 
from God
> through Jesus Christ as Paul has just explained {1:6-8ff, 2:7] so that no
one
> can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ for good works
to
> be faithful] which God previously prepared for us to do. [He prepared this
by
> means of his plan of salvation which Paul has just explained].
> 
> I find no dificulty in translating DIA PISTEWS as faithfulness in verse 8.
I
> think it is also apropriate for the aorist active particple PISTEUSANTES in
> 1.13. although it is difficult to put into
> our vernacular, perhaps "having been faithful,"  And in verse 15 for PISTIN
>  ". . .heard about your faithfulness in the Lord Jesus . . ."
> 

	This confuses me.  If by faithfulness, you mean the faithfulness 
of the believer, it doesn't seem to fit, but is repudiated by the next 
phrase "and this not of yourselves."  The pistis is not of ourselves.
	If by faithfulness, you mean faithfulness of God to mankind, one 
can be led to believe that this passage promotes universalism, and idea I 
don't think Paul would have us fall into.
	If by faithfulness, you mean a work that God performs in the 
believer, something indicated in verses 4-5 "God, who is rich in mercy, 
made us alive with Christ," then I don't see the problem with translating 
the term "faith."  
 					Travis Bauer
 					Jamestown College
 

------------------------------

From: NM241@lampeter.ac.uk
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 19:38:19 GMT
Subject: [none]

Subscribe B-Greek Noel Derham. 

------------------------------

From: stcdc <stcdc@cais.cais.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:21:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: Baby Greek Tools

Bill,

Your idea of a "Baby Greek" set of tools is both interesting and timely. 
I believe there is a growing interest *and* need for this level of Greek 
study, particularly among Christian laymen. As a self-taught student of 
koine Greek, I sensed just such an interest several years ago within my 
own congregation. Using Jim Found's text (the only thing available at the 
time) along with motivational handouts that I put together on 
concordances, analytical lexicons, interlinear texts, early manuscripts, 
transmission of the text, history of the language, etc., I built a ten 
week course. Even I was surprised when nearly a dozen people signed up 
*and* most stuck with the entire ten weeks.

What I would like to see in such a set of tools would be a text with a 
separate workbook and a teacher's manual. Supplementary material could 
include cassette(s) and vu-graphs. Even a little certificate signed by 
Bill Mounce to be presented upon successful completion of the course 
could be a motivation to *sign-up and dig-in* ;). For me, Greek study opened 
another dimension to my Bible study - and afterall, anything that 
encourages a disciplined study of scripture is worthwhile. Thank you for 
your post, and I hope to hear that you will be developing these tools.

Regards,

Chuck Arnold
Upper Marlboro, MD

------------------------------

From: Bruce Terry <terry@bible.acu.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:49:34 CST
Subject: Re: Camel or rope? 

>On Thu, 19 Jan 1995, Carl Conrad wrote to Vincent Broman:
>My thanks to you and to Bruce Terry, as well, for responding to my 
>question about the Georgian version. As I recall (if I recall rightly), 
>you have had things to say hitherto about the MS traditions. I wonder if 
>you have a judgment on the original question concerning the preferable 
>reading: KAMHLON or KAMILON, and the reason for the preference. 
>Meanwhile, I shall see if I can find that long-lost and short-lived 
>thread on this issue from two or more yearsa ago. 

Carl--

Thanks for posting the long-lost thread on camels and ropes.  I only have one
thing to add to it.  One can tell that "camel through the eye of a needle" is
not an idiom referring to a camel going in a small door in the city gate
because two different words for needle are used in different gospels and idoims
(except in the hands of Ricky Ricardo) usually retain a fixed form.  Matthew
and Mark use rafidos 'sewing needle' while Luke uses belonhs 'surgical needle.' 
Of course, there is also a textual question on this latter reading, too.

As regards your original comment on kamhlon, I thought it answered the question
well.  Kamhlon is found in the oldest MSS, the majority of MSS, in all four
text families, and is the more difficult reading.  If the canons of textual
criticism are at all correct, it is the original reading in all three synoptic
gospels.

- --Bruce

********************************************************************************
Bruce Terry                            E-MAIL: terry@bible.acu.edu
Box 8426, ACU Station		       Phone:  915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699		       Fax:    915/674-3769
********************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: Timothy Gaden <tjg@hermes.apana.org.au> 
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 16:21:18
Subject: Re:  Eph 2:8, "Faithfulness"

Ken,

You wrote:
 
>   (Not quoting for UNIX reasons), Byron Bezdek argued that
>dia pisteows in EPh 2:8-9 be rendered faithfullness.  If we are saved by
>our faithfulness, then even if from God, we are saved by works, which the
>context contradicts.  

But note G.M. Taylor's perceptive comment (from the second round of
this debate in the sixties) that faith understood in the 'traditional'
Pauline sense for which you are arguing, 

        simply substitutes the mental act of having faith for the
        bodily one of  being circumcised as a precondition of
        salvation, and (so far as the  mechanism of justification is
        concerned) leaves Christ is the passive role  of being the
        object of our justifying faith. 
                G.M. Taylor, "The Function of PISTIS CRISTOU in
                Galatians" JBL 85 (1966) 75. 

I.e. hard line objective interpretations can make faith into the same
kind of 'work' that Paul disparages.  Part of the drive behind the
subjective interpretation is that it avoids this problem, and also
begins to bridge the gap between Paul's Christology and soteriology,
which are not intrinisically connected by the objective reading.  As
Byron has also suggested, it also goes a long way to making sense of
Paul's statements about the role of salvation by works in the final
judgement. 

All in all, it seems to produce what modern philosophers call a
more "internally coherent" reading of the whole of Paul's theology.  

Whatever the ultimate truth of the matter (which is probably hidden
with God), this exchange is good fun!  I hope we can keep it friendly
and be open to each others' interpretations - not always a feature
of this debate on other lists!

Cheers,

Tim





- --------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy Gaden - tjg@hermes.apana.org.au - Melbourne, Australia
- -------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

From: Travis Bauer <bauer@acc.jc.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 17:38:27 -36000
Subject: Re: Entry Level Greek texts

	Has anyone read "New Testament Exegesis: A Handbook for Students 
and Pastors" by Gordon Fee?  I purchased it when I purchased one of his 
commentaries for a class.  It is not about Grammar, but assuming a basic 
knowledge of grammar, it introduces the reader to basic analysis of a 
text, including an introduction to BAGD.  It has a good bibliography.

					Travis Bauer
					Jamestown College

------------------------------

From: SOONJUY@cgs.edu
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: To: b-greek@virginia.edu

subscribe b-greek

------------------------------

End of b-greek-digest V1 #554
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