b-greek-digest V1 #673

b-greek-digest            Thursday, 20 April 1995      Volume 01 : Number 673

In this issue:

        Re: 1 Cor 15:29
        Re: Classics Resources: more than you asked for 
        Re: Key Synoptic Problem Texts
        Biblical languages for the blind
        Re: Key Synoptic Problem Texts
        Eph. 5:16 - Historical Context 
        Re: Biblical languages for the blind 
        Synoptic texts 
        salt and gather
        Re: Jn 15.2


From: Mark W Lucas <markl@stpetes.win-uk.net> 
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 20:07:50
Subject: Re: 1 Cor 15:29

>Anyway, my question has to do with 1 Corinthians 15:29.  What does Paul 
>mean by the expression _hoi baptizomenoi huper twn nekrwn_ ... 
>_baptizontai huper autwn_?
My understanding of this verse is that Paul is appealing to an
internal contradiction of the reasoning of the Corinthians. Clearly
some of them doubt the fact of the future resurrection (maybe
believing it had already happened ie. they had an overrealised
eschatology). If they believed there to be no future resurrection
then there practice of baptising people on behalf of the dead is

It is important to realise that Paul does not condone this
practice and certainly does not teach it as an orthodox part of
Christianity. He is simply appealing to the Corinthians' error to
demonstrate their inconsistency.

There other possible explanations but I think this is the best
(although I await eagerly any other suggestions from the learned
brethren on the list :-) ). 

Mark Lucas (London, UK)

Feel free to mail me direct on 
or compuserve 100025,1511


From: "David W. Evans" <davevans@onramp.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 16:44:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Classics Resources: more than you asked for 

Re: Carl Conrad's comments:
- --------much omitted-----------------------------------
>Classics resources by WWW:
>What follows below is the home page of the major web site for all
>Classics resources, reachable at:
>     http://rome.classics.lsa.umich.edu/cma_mods.html
- ----------------much more omitted----------------------
I think the url is:


but the link you provided got me there.  Thanks a lot!
David Evans
e-mail: davevans@onramp.net
soon www: http://rampages.onramp.net/~davevans/


From: Nichael Cramer <nichael@sover.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 17:55:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Key Synoptic Problem Texts

> On Tue, 18 Apr 1995 
> William (Yirah@aol.com) wrote:
> >I don't have a list of so-called "synoptic problem texts" handy. But
> >in dealing with this issue don't overlook the work of Eta Linneman
> >(last I knew, she has two books out on the market dealing with 
> >this "problem"). 
> A little bibliographic info on Linneman's books:
> Is There a Synoptic Problem? (Grand Rapids, Baker Book House) $10.99
> Historical Criticism of the Bible (Baker Book House)  $9.99
> These are fairly recent books and should be available in Christian 
> book stores.  If stores don't have them in stock, they can get them 
> from their major distributor, Spring Arbor : - )

It is, however, fair to point out that Linneman's books have been pretty 
universally panned in most of the scholarly reviews that I've seen.



From: "Michael Moss, Director of Graduate Bible Studies" <MOSSCM@dlu.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 10:24:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Biblical languages for the blind

It is likely that one or two blind students will be coming to our university
in the fall in biblical studies.  While we have had several blind students, we 
have never had students who wanted to study the biblical languages.  I would 
appreciate in information from those of you who may have had experience in 
the matter.

Michael Moss
David Lipscomb University
Nashville, TN


From: Larry Swain <lswain@wln.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 17:53:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Key Synoptic Problem Texts

> It is, however, fair to point out that Linneman's books have been pretty 
> universally panned in most of the scholarly reviews that I've seen.

True, but I have come to the conclusion that the majority of the 
reviewers I have read on her don't like her conclusions and so haughtily 
dismiss the book.  I have yet to read a review of her work that is not 
mere jousting at windmills or attacking a straw man.  And when it comes 
down to it what criteria do we use to determine that Matthew copied Mark 
and another source called Q and that Luke did the same?
Similarity of subject matter
Similarity of overall structure
Similarity and commonality of microstructure
Similarity and commonality of vocabulary
Similarity of theology

She has made some pretty serious cases against all of these, although not 
conclusive.  I am not the correct person to do this since I don't much 
hold with the Q solution, but I would really like to see someone deal 
with the issues she raises.

Larry Swain
Parmly Billings Library


From: Painter2B@aol.com
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 21:13:05 -0400
Subject: Eph. 5:16 - Historical Context 


I am doing a historial context study on Eph. 5:16 and have hit (almost) a
dead end.  Can anyone point me toward some source material (i.e.
Talmud/Mishnah, pseudapigraphic writings & etc.) or any search tools which
might point me in the direction toward shedding some light on the first
century understanding of "evil days" as referenced by Paul in this passage?

I have looked at Strack-Billerbeck.  There is no entry for this verse.  Any
help is appreciated.

Paul B.


From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 22:22:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Biblical languages for the blind 


Back in 1974-75 I had two sightless students take Greek at what is now
Charleston Southern University.  They both had the use of an opticon
furnished by the National Association for the Sightless.  The body of the
Opticon was about the size of an old style recorder.  The person put his left
hand in the body with his index finger resting on an area where a matrix of
probes came out.  In the right hand he held a tiny camera.  Instead of
showing a picture the opticon drew the shape of each letter on the index
finger.  Also I was supplied a small screen on which I could see exactly what
the student felt on his finger.  I guided each of them in learning to
recognize each letter.  The most trouple came with iota subscripts, but each
finally learned to recognize those letters that take subscripts both with and
without the subscript.  One of the students was near the top of the class and
nearly the best student that I have ever had.  At that time each also had the
small dictionary by Green in braill and the entire NT transliterated into
brail.  They did better reading the Greek text (UBS1) with the Opticon than
reading it in braill.

At the time the association required such students to be tested for
sensitivity in order to receive an opticon.

Carlton Winbery


From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 22:32:43 -0400
Subject: Synoptic texts 

The requests for problem texts to the two document hypothesis is very
interesting to me.  I would suggest the best list for such texts is B.H.
Streeter's list of minor agreements against Mark.  
If anyone wants to find evidence against the two document solution, work
through C.S. Mann's commentary on Mark in the Anchor Bible.  I worked my way
through all 671 pages and came out more convinced that Mark was a basic
source for Matthew and Luke and also that Matthew and Luke shared other
sources both oral and written.  The appendix in Moule's The Birth of the NT
is still the most convincing discussion of the evidence.  If Mark had Matthew
or any earlier edition of it before him, Mark 8:14-21 is absurd.  It was
amusing to read Mann on that text.  He spends a lot of words in order to say
that he cannot explain the result.

Carlton Winbery


From: "Bro. Alexis Doval" <adoval@stmarys-ca.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 19:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: salt and gather

Does anyone know if there is a connection between the two meanings for 
the verb A(LI/ZW, to salt (e.g., Mt. 5.13) and the older classsical 
meaning to gather (see Liddell & Scott)? 

Brother Alexis Doval, FSC
Department of Religious Studies
P.O. Box 5150
Saint Mary's College
Moraga, California  94575
(510) 631-3007


From: George Baloglou <baloglou@oswego.oswego.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 00:51:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jn 15.2

On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, George Baloglou wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, Larry Swain wrote:
> > Greetings all.  I wanted to test the waters of the group.  I heard an 
> > interpretation of Jn 15.2 the other day that got me thinking.  PAN KLHMA EN
> > EMOI MH PHERON KARPON AIREI AUTO.  This person understood airw in the 
> > sense of "raising up" rather than removing.  Hence, the gardener does not 
> > remove the unproductive branches but rather puts supports under them so 
> > that they can produce.  
> > 
> > [rest deleted]
> Motivated both by this query and the only so far response to it by ??
> (sorry, I cannot recall his name after I accidentally erased his message),
> I opt for an alternative, sort of middle-of-the-road interpretation as
> follows: a vine/branch/tree that produces no fruit is not burdened by 
> extra weight, therefore it is likely to reach higher; metaphorically
> speaking, "shallow characters tend to stand out" (unfortunately ...).

On second reading, I am somewhat troubled by that "EN EMOI", which changes
my interpretation into something like "my worst qualities tend to surface",
making it a bit less plausible as well. (Let me also confess that I do not
have access to a Bible right now, but, if I keep reading this list, I will
get one before long!)
> I notice at this point modern Greek "EPAIROMAI" = "brag", but I do not
> know that verb's "orbit" in (modern) Greek. 

A closer look at Liddell & Scott reveals that, in ancient Greek,
"EPAIROMAI" = "swell up"; for example, "O KAULOS EPAIRETAI" = "the stem
swells up". Therefore, "EPAIROMAI" = "brag" brings to mind the "passage"
from "swollen up" to "puffed up"; whether this particular meaning existed
in biblical Greek, I do not know. 

 George Baloglou
 "Memory of my people, your name is Pindos, your name is Athos" ("AXION ESTI")


End of b-greek-digest V1 #673


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