b-greek-digest V1 #687

b-greek-digest             Sunday, 30 April 1995       Volume 01 : Number 687

In this issue:

        Re: SURVEY / 1Jn1:7
        B-Greek assumptions?
        Re: B-Greek assumptions? 
        Rev. 20:14 -- Two Deaths
        Re: SURVEY 
        Carl Conrad's request for signatures
        Re: Carl Conrad 
        Carl Conrad's Question 
        Re: Rev. 20:14 -- Two Deaths 
        Re: Carl Conrad's request for... 
        Re: Carl Conrad's request for signatures
        Re: LXX, NT and Apostolic Fa.... 
        Re: SURVEY / 1Jn1:7 


From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 07:19:59 -0700
Subject: Re: SURVEY / 1Jn1:7

You wrote: 
>Carl W Conrad wrote:
>> Most participants readily identify themselves with a signature file 
>> some sort appended to their notes, and it always annoys me to see a 
>> question or request addressed to listmembers in general that is 
>> An unsigned request of this sort borders on (if it doesn't cross the 

>> line) being tacky.
>By somewhat free association this reminded me of 1Jn1:7 EN TWi FWTI
>PERIPATWMEN ("[if] we are walking in the light").  What does this
>really mean?  Does it mean to live honestly and openly in contrast to
>YEUDOMEQA (v6 "we lie"; cf. Jn3:20-21)?  Or, is the BAGD right in
>glossing this as "to be filled w[ith] Christian truth," presumably in
>contrast to OU POIOUMEN THN ALHQEIAN (v6 "we do not live by truth" 
>Thoughts anyone?
>Stephen Carlson

I've been monitoring this group for a week or two myself, but have 
never jumped into the discussions publicly because I was certain that 
all I'd accomplish would be to broadcast my ignorance. But since the 
subject here appears to be well within the realm of my knowledge and 
experience, I will speak.

I know nothing of signatures. My husband, with his great skill and 
wisdom, was able to place his own name by our address when he enrolled 
us in the net. I generally sign my name at the bottom, so people will 
know it's I, not he. But signatures...way beyond my poor powers to add 
or detract. Is it possible Mr. Anon simply shares my lack of knowledge 
and finesse?

As far as my pupose for being here, I feel priviledged to both be able 
to view your writings and to know there are people I can go to when I 
have questions of my own. I love studying the NT in Greek but as a 
mother of three, I've never been able to afford the time or expense of 
formal study. My personal library is scanty at best.

Here I feel much like a starving child feasting on the scraps from a 
lush banqueting table. If you please, though, when an anonymous 
scavenger brushes too close to your feet, try not to kick him too hard.

(Simply) Ellen


From: EdwardB477@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 10:57:08 -0400
Subject: Unsubscribe 



From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 10:19:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: B-Greek assumptions?

Saturday, April 29, 1995; 9:02 AM CDT
Subject: the nature of our e-talk

I write this note for fear that my reply to yesterday's
"Survey" request may have been every bit as brash and
"intrusive" as the request appeared to me to be. While
others, of course, are free to make their own responses, I
don't want to speak for everybody in a way that may well
seem to have been presumptuous.

Brian McElroy, who posted yesterday's "Survey" note, has
written me a very nice letter about his reasons for posting
the request that people share publicly on the list their
faith-histories and/or reasons for participating in the list
correspondence. I have already responded at some length to
him, but it bothers me that I am assuming perhaps much too
much about what other list-members think and share as an
understanding of what the B-Greek list is and what is
appropriate "grist for our mill." Inasmuch as I mentioned in
my response yesterday the statement of purpose that we all
received (didn't we) in the General Information sent us at
the time of subscribing initially and occasionally posted to
the list by John Marotta (who, like God himself/herself,
graciously permits us pretty much to do as we wish, to our
own benefit or detriment), I'd like to cite that statement
and then cite what I told Bruce I understood it to mean.

I don't want to start an extraneous thread about the nature
of the list when there are so many worthwhile (or at least
interesting!) concerns that do directly bear upon our
understanding of the Greek text of the NT; I just want to
test my assumptions and get some sense of whether they are
generally shared by list-members or whether, on the
contrary, I am in fact way out of line myself in my
perceptions and inclinations.

(1) The official "blurb" sent out to one and all B-Greekers:

>    B-GREEK is an electronic conference designed to foster
>    communication concerning the scholarly study of the Greek
>    Bible. Anyone interested in New Testament Studies is invited
>    to subscribe, but the list will assume at least a working
>    knowledge of Biblical Greek.  Those interested in learning
>    to study the Bible more personally and less exclusively
>    academic should join the BIBLE list
>    Subscription to this conference is open to anyone interested.

(2) Extracts from my response to Bruce McElroy:

     (a) regarding self-identification or signature-files by posters:

>                                          I do think it is important
> that we address each other on the  list as real people with
> real names, even if such names don't tell us an  awful lot
> more than does an e-address like "usa@hntp2.hinet.net" which
> is  all I could discern about you in the note you posted to
> the list. The  least I would hope to see in a signature file
> is a person's name and  where in the world he or she is
> posting from; personally I like to see  also some
> information about a person's professional or vocational
> status  or association with an academic institution, and
> that's why I list my own  in my own signature file. One
> takes some credentials a bit more seriously  than others,
> although this can be somewhat dangerous also; a Ph.D. can be
>  a crackpot as well as any other ...

    (b) regarding subscribers--whoever and whatever they may be:

>  There may very well be members on the list who are not
> Christian, and I  suspect that there are; certainly I think
> that there are a few secular  scholars who are interested in
> the NT text as a literary-theological text  without any
> bearing on their own faith-orientation. A Christian
> commitment is not a requirement for  participation in this
> list, and I do think that some participants  mistakenly
> assume that it is. Occasionally tempers flare up when people
> with very narrow-minded  perspectives from different points
> on the spectrum of Christian orthodoxy  start responding
> defensively and dogmatically. That's a point where  someone
> needs to pour some cold water over the discussion. I try to
> do  this when I can, because ...

     (c) regarding the scope and implicit restrictions on list

> ... because I think that this is a forum for serious
> discussion of issues  concerning the Greek text of the New
> Testament and how it may  legitimately be interpreted in
> terms of how the Greek reads and whatever  other relevant
> information we may have from knowledge of the background 
> and entire corpus of the Bible and its traditional
> background. It is NOT,  in my opinion, a place for working
> out one's own faith or trying to  convert others to one's
> own faith-stance. It is a serious but  fundamentally
> academic forum where the fundamental passionate commitment 
> of participants ought (in my opinion) to be toward a truth
> that can be  rationally expounded and defended in honest
> argumentation.

Am I articulating here what anyone else thinks, or am I way off base?

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: WINBROW@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 11:48:00 -0400
Subject: Re: B-Greek assumptions? 

Carl Conrad wrote,
"Am I articulating here what anyone else thinks, or am I way off base?"


Carlton Winbery
Louisiana College
Pineville, LA


From: "The Rev. David R. Graham" <merovin@halcyon.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 95 09:26:54 PDT
Subject: Rev. 20:14 -- Two Deaths

Some thoughts on this subject:

There are two deaths.  The first is the death of the ego.  The
second is the death of the body.  Of these, the first is momentous
and the second trivial.  When people are afraid of death, they are
really afraid of the first death, not the second.  The first death is
frightening and unusual.  The second is commonplace and
expected.  Therefore, any fear associated with the second death
is merely trivial.  Fear associated with the first death is so
momentous as to repel most from even approaching it

Most people end their earthly careers never having undergone
the first death, never having gotten their ego under control.  Ego
screams to them that its death or even modest abatement is total
obliteration of the personality and this assertion, which is
interior and unanswerable by reason, triggers the momentous
fear.  Of course, it is all untrue, but ego screams loudly enough
to make many think that it is.  When such people approach the
death of the body, they have not undergone the death of the ego
and this thing which is really trivial can appear to them as the
obliteration of the self, as stupendously depressing.  They think
they are responding to the death of the body, but really they are
responding to the death of the ego.  This confusion also infuses
care givers.

On the cross, Jesus underwent death of the ego.  He underwent
bodily death many years later, while a resident near Srinagar,
Kashmir.  His first death was the important one, as it is for all
aspirants.  His first death is the primal exemplar of piety and
therefore the crucial teaching of the church.  It was the unique
one.  Everyone undergoes death of the body.  But only the great
ones undergo death of the ego.  Their experience with this rare
and necessary experience is the ultimate paradigm for
spirituality then, now and always.

Spirituality is crucifixion of the ego, its death and resurrection
remade the same but under the control of Grace.  In effect,
spirituality is ego-less-ness.  Emotionally and intellectually, this
works out to the experience called at-one-ment, or, beatification.
The path leads inexorably through this narrow, uncomfortable
and, for most, terrifying defile of the first death, the death of the
ego.  Who undergoes this death, has nothing to fear from and no
fear of the second.

- -------------------------------------
The Rev. David R. Graham
Adwaitha Hermitage
Professor of Philosophy
Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning

E-mail: merovin@halcyon.com
Date: 04/06/95
Time: 13:41:10
- -------------------------------------


From: RoyRM@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 14:20:36 -0400
Subject: Re: SURVEY 

Carl Conrad wrote:

>Most participants readily identify themselves with a signature file of 
>some sort appended to their notes, and it always annoys me to see >a
question or request addressed to listmembers in general that is >unsigned. An
unsigned request of this sort borders on (if it doesn't >cross the line)
being tacky. I hope I am not offending anyone who >would like to see the
answers to this "survey," but IMHO the >purpose of this list was pretty well
stated in the message that we all >received when we originally joined.

I wonder what it is that is so annoying about the response of someone
obviously new to the list and possibly even new to computers.  How hard is it
to give someone the benefit of the doubt instead of slapping him or her back
down in their seat?  It makes me wonder if all of the education and learning
has caused a little bit of a loss of perspective into the world of the

Also, while the signings of some do indicate positions and possibly motives,
many do not.  Is it wrong to have a little more interest in the background of
some of the participants?  I can guarantee that merely by my signature no one
knows I am simply a framing carpenter who has had the priviledge to learn
greek (from a member of this list!) and I use this list to stay abreast of
current discussions and to stay sharp in the language.  I guess I really
don't understand such a harsh response to a seemingly innocent query.  

I have to apologize for being so negative.  It is not something I really
wanted or intended to do.  I was just taken aback by the flame and felt
someone needed to stick up for those who are learning.

Roy R. Millhouse
6508 E. 125th St. #12
Grandview, MO  64030



From: Edward Hobbs <EHOBBS@wellesley.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:54:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Carl Conrad's request for signatures

To the subscribers of B-Greek:
     Carl Conrad, probably the most gracious and generous (with
both time and knowledge) poster to this List, recently expressed
his concern that postings were being made anonymously.  He was
especially concerned since one such anonymous poster asked others
to divulge matters about themselves which many consider quite
personal, and others consider irrelevant to the List's purposes,
while concealing even his/her own name.
     He has now been accused of flaming, and of trying to drive
off subscribers who are not recognized scholars.  May I please
join in the say that I, too, consider unsigned postings to be
improper on ANY list, especially this one.
     It has been suggested that novices do not know how to write
their names at the bottom of their postings.  Is this really
true?  Are there really people who can type a letter, but do not
know that mail normally has the name of the writer at the bottom?
     I  confess total bafflement.  I have said several times. in
the years since Dr. Marotta wonderfully created this List, that
signing one's mail is a courtesy which should be scrupulously
observed.  On occasion, I have replied to requests for help,
despite having no idea who "garfelsorb@fedex.com" is.  A NAME is
not too hard to sign at the bottom, and I have asked for it when
I have replied to such requests.
     But there is a further accusation against Carl Conrad which
I deem to be not only wrong, but scurrilous: that he wants to
sort out posters into the elite and the rabble, in effect.  On
the contrary, he has repeatedly given of himself and his
knowledge to everyone on this List who has asked for help,
without any reservation.  But he would like a NAME!  And, he
suggests in his follow-up note, it would be helpful to know
whether a question really means "I am a beginner--I have only two
years of university-level Greek and I now have no one to ask," or
instead, "I am doing research on this passage, writing an
article/book, and am stymied; the grammars/lexica do not seem to
help me."  Those few of us on the List who are professionals
really need to know what level of help is needed.
     And the issue isn't status in the guild.  One of the most
knowledgeable posters to this List on text-critical matters,
whose skills and learning are remarkable, seems to be involved in
something like military intelligence, or naval cybernetics (is
that a field?) or something quite strange to me.  I consider his
postings very seriously, since I know a great deal about (and
have published in) the field of textual criticism.  I never
thought to ask him whether he is a professor of New Testament or
of Classics or holds a Ph.D. in Greek, or anything of the sort.
     Even so, it helps me personally to know why and how one is
involved in these matters.  One poster shared that he is entering
a Ph.D. program with heavy demands in Greek, after a couple of
decades in computer work.  Knowing that has helped me to try to
be helpful to him for the very purpose he has in mind.  But no
one need feel that he/she should post one's degrees in what
subjects!  (Ph.D's are too easy to get; becoming a real scholar
is often quite another matter.)

     May I say it again: if anyone ever deserved NOT to be flamed
by anyone on this list, it is Carl Conrad --  whom I never knew
before he joined this List, but who is the best asset we have
ever had.  Let's not drive him away!

- --Edward Hobbs
     (who has several degrees, spent his career teaching at Univ.
of Chicago, Univ. of California (S.F. Medical Center, prof. of
medicine), Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, Harvard Divinity
School and Harvard Graduate School, and in his sixties at
Wellesley, as well as being founder of Center for Hermeneutical
Studies -- who has learned a GREAT deal from people on this list
who are computer programmers, military I-don't-know-whats,
farmers, graduate students in Australia, Denmark, and the
Americas, and even from a learned Classicist at Washington


From: PaleoBill@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 19:23:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Carl Conrad 

I would like to second Mr. Hobb's views on both Conrad and his generous
contributions to this list as well as second the notion that many so-called
untrained men and women can, and have, made significant contributions to this
Best Regards
Bill Parkinson


From: Paul Moser <PMOSER@cpua.it.luc.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 95 20:08 CDT
Subject: Carl Conrad's Question 

Carl Conrad asked if listmembers shared his statement
of the list's goals and standards.  I gladly endorse
his statement, hoping that the list keeps its focus
on the NT Greek text.  I find Carl's own contributions
to the list outstanding.--Paul Moser (Professor),
Loyola University of Chicago.


From: Yirah@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 23:09:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Rev. 20:14 -- Two Deaths 

The Rev. David R. Graham recently wrote (among other things) in a recent

>On the cross, Jesus underwent death of the ego.  He underwent
bodily death many years later, while a resident near Srinagar,

Is this an example of the scholarly discussion that one expects to find on
this list as Carl et. al. have so eloquently stated in recent discussions?


PS--I'm a "Rev" also but I think one that's a bit different than Mr.


From: RoyRM@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 23:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Carl Conrad's request for... 

I see I've gotten myself in over my head and have brought down some wrath
upon myself.  Oh well, if I wasn't prepared for such, I should keep quiet.  

While not wanting to keep something all stirred up when Professor Conrad
graciously explained himself in a later post, I found myself accussed of,
shall we say, overreacting in my response  .  All I will say in my own
defense is that if I had received the first response, I would have taken it
as a rebuke.  My posting was a response to that.
Perhaps it could have or even should have been done in a different way; I saw
from Professor Conrad's later post that I accussed him of things he did not
mean to imply--something I learned from his perspective first hand when I saw
that Proffesor Hobbs saw me making accusations I never intended with my post.
 For that, I sincerely and humbly apologize.  When all is said and done, I
guess what I was really trying to say was "give the guy a break."  At any
rate, Professor Conrad, I apologize for the manner and tone of my post.

Still a framing carpenter, though I do have a B.A.!

Roy R. Millhouse
6508 E. 125th St. #12
Grandview, MO  64030


From: Micheal Palmer <mpalmes@email.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 00:05:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Carl Conrad's request for signatures

I would like to add my own word of support for Carl Conrad to that of 
Edward Hobbs. I have found Carl to be extremely evenhanded in his 
comments, accepting of those who have far less expertise in Greek than he 
does, willing to invest large amounts of time in answering their 
questions, and willing to interact with all of us as equals in spite of his 
obviously superior understanding of Greek. To see him accused of wanting 
exclude beginners seemed to me unbelievable.

I also share Carl's concern that posts to the list be signed. Signing 
our correspondence is simply a common courtesy which we should all observe.

Micheal W. Palmer
Mellon Research Fellow
Department of Linguistics
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill


From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 00:07:24 -0400
Subject: Re: LXX, NT and Apostolic Fa.... 

To: B-Greek@virginia.edu
From: Timster132@aol.com (Tim Staker)

>  Ken said....
>> I don't know where to go to find a vocab list to memorize 
>>for low-frequency words in the NT, let alone the LXX or the 
>>Apos. Fathers.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  

   Ken, I finally came across a vocab listing for the NT: _The Student's
Complete Vocabulary Guide to the Greek NT_  by Warren Trenchard (Zondervon,
Grand Rapids, 1992).  The second chapter has a listing of words by frequency.
 This book also lists cognates, verbal principle parts and other gammatical
    Tim McLay is right, tho.  If you already have the basics, then keep
plodding along.  The only way to learn is to just keep reading.  The
comprehesion will come as you keep on going.  Read any Greek you can get your
hands on.  Don't think of it as a summer project, think of it as a lifetime
endeavor, and maybe you won't feel as overwhelmed.




From: Timster132@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 00:07:34 -0400
Subject: Re: SURVEY / 1Jn1:7 

TO: B-Greek@Virginia.edu
cc: mikadams@ix.netcom.com
>From Timster132@aol.com (Tim Staker)


    Your comments were well taken.  While I feel anyone taking a survey,
especially an official one for gathering data, needs to sign their name.
 Still,  I am not one of those who is big on loading up the credentials at
the end of one's name.  One of the great things about the Internet is that
people are judged on their ideas (and occassionally their spelling) and not
their status, looks, race, etc.  Cyberspace is one of the truly democratic
places left in the world where we are all equal.
     It is nice to see in people's postscripts where they are from or what
their favorite quote is.  And some on the list create titles for themselves,
but I guess is they have to, they will.  But Ellen, we are all on equal
ground standing before the cross.




End of b-greek-digest V1 #687


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