b-greek-digest V1 #688

b-greek-digest               Monday, 1 May 1995         Volume 01 : Number 688

In this issue:

        Re: B-Greek assumptions? 
        auto desubscribe?
        Re: B-Greek assumptions?
        Re: 1 Tim 2:12, AUTHENTEIN
        Jn 19:39 -- Altered Reality


From: GGoolde@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 01:24:51 -0400
Subject: Re: B-Greek assumptions? 

Thank you, Carl, for your thoughts.

I agree concerning both the intended focus and breadth of this list.  While
this is not primarily a forum to convert others to my "faith-stance," that
stance will, from time to time, become evident in the assumptions I bring to
the Sacred Text.  

As to titles and affiliations, I personally reject sacerdotalism and
understand the Scripture to teach the priesthood of all who place their faith
in Christ.  But I admit that those titles and affiliations help to place a
person's comments in a perspective, a frame if you please, that becomes
helpful since I do not know most of you personally.  So I use the titles and
affiliations as an accommodation to help you know  where I'm coming from.  I
really don't want anyone to be impressed.  God surely isn't!

I have been on this list only a few days and have read more than I have
written.  I appreciate insightful exegesis of the text and thank all of you
who share your labor in the Word with others.

George Goolde
Dean, Graduate Studies, San Diego Bible Seminary


From: usa@hntp2.hinet.net
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:23:41 +0800 (CST)

This post is for all who are on the b-greek conference:

My name is Brian McElroy, and I am the person who posted the
original post titled 'SURVEY'.  I would like to say a few things
to clear the air, and hopefully after reading this post, we can
all put this matter behind us.

I really do appreciate the responses that came to me (many), from
those who wished to share with me, their purposes on this conference.
Thank you for taking the time to drop me such nice letters and support.

One of the main reasons why I asked the questions I did, was to find
out what kind of people were on this net.  I am not a nosy person and
I was not interested in anyone for gossip purposes or I was not trying
to intentionally enrage anyone.  Many people, as I have found from the
responses (to me personally), are Pastors or highly educated people
involved in Christianity in some way or another.  When I first joined
this net, I found that there were some strange sig files -some relating
or leaning towards things that appeared deceptive to me.  My life has
been a roller coaster ride every since I was a young boy.
I had a past in the occult, the new age, and other things which are
not Christian --but things have changed and I have found Jesus
Christ as my Saviour and things are much different for me.  ESPECIALLY
DIFFERENT in who I associate with and how I discern what is being 
said, and WHO is saying it!  I found that some statements by a 
person on this net link right up with the occult, and are definitely
deception-related in order to throw a spear into the faith of 
Christians.  There is much more to that, but I will not go into it
here and now.  I was concerned about where the information was 
coming from that I was reading.  I wanted to get a better idea before
I got too involved or recommended it to other people.

Perhaps that will give everyone a better idea of why I asked the
questions I did in the post "SURVEY".  I am sorry for not explaining
more clearly the reasons why I asked, and I am sorry for intruding
or making anyone feel angry.  

As far as a 'sig' file goes, I do have one.  My sig file does not
say much about me.  I figured either way, if I were to start talking
about myself, that someone may take it offensively --and actually I
did not feel worthy to put anything about myself there.  After reading
the responses, I can see things a little differently now.
The sig file that is below, however, will probably not change.

About myself: I have a Bachelor's in B.A. from UWS, and I am living
in Taiwan.  I came here seven years ago and started studying Mandarin
Chinese at FuJen University.  I am fluent in Chinese now, and I work
for an American company that makes after-market Ford autoparts.  My
work brings me all over Taiwan, into Hong Kong, and China.  I have
an avid interest in eschatology (prophecy), and the ancient oracle
bone and bronzeware Chinese characters that link to Hebrew.

My testimony: It is very long, about 15 pages.  I will send it to
anyone who asks.  It comes as an 'attachment' on e-mail.  I am
a born again Christian.

Now, in response to all the dust flowing around with Carl.  One of
the most interesting persons on this net is Carl Conrad.  I asked a
question and he answered it very nicely in the past.  As a matter
of fact, after posting "SURVEY", I kept thinking "Oh boy, I can't 
wait until Carl answers :) !"  I wrote Carl a letter, and he wrote
me back an ever nicer one.  I hold nothing against him and I hope
nobody else does either.  There are many others on this net who 
also have wonderful minds.  It is a blessing to the body of Christ
to have such a net where people can learn, exchange, or share 
their studies on Greek and the New Testament.  

Here is a portion of someting that Carl sent me, regarding the 
description of the b-greek list:

B-GREEK is an electronic conference designed to foster
communications concerning the scholarly study of the Greek Bible.
Anyone interested in NT studies is invited to subscribe, but the list
will assume at least a working knowledge of Biblical Greek.  Those
interested in learning to study the Bible more personally and less
exclusively academic should join the BIBLE list.

Now, when reading this, it pretty much answers my questions as to
what kind of people are on this net.  Perhaps it tells me
that the people on this list:
	a) Are interested in NT studies
	b) Have at least a working knowledge of Biblical Greek
So, obviously there is no requirement for anyone to believe in
Christ.  An athiest, a buhhdist, a hindu, a universalist, or anyone
can join.  This was my concern from the very beginning.  

I'm assuming that many others caught on to this from the very 
beginning and this is the reason they want a sig file.  I might add,
however, that a sig file does have limitations and can be used
as a deceptive alius.

Let's put this matter to rest and hold no grudges against anyone.  
Peace and love to you by the riches of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God Bless you all,
In Him,

Brian McElroy                     E-Mail Contact Information
P.O. Box 2-60                   (BEST) *Internet: usa@hntp2.hinet.net
Taipei, Taiwan               Compuserve Internet: 75677.516@compuserve.com
R.O.C.                             on Compuserve: 75677,516


From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 06:07:13 -0700
Subject: Survey/request

My mailbox is not scorched. My keyboard is not smoking.

Perhaps a fog settled among us and we were unable to see one another 
clearly. Or shall I say we could clearly see those nearest us, but 
could not distinguish the nature and demeanor of those more distant.

What appeared to be flames were swords raised here and there among the 
camp, not in attack, nor even in self-defense. Those who lifted their 
swords did so as a sign of support for others whom they understand and 

The fog (not smoke) disperses and the soldiers appear. Though their 
uniforms and rank vary greatly, they are for the most part allies in 
the same cause.

Also, it seems that the anonymous soldier whose shout stirred this 
flurry of activity has received what he requested, a greater 
understanding of who else is here and why.

agaph...sunchairei de th(i) alhQeia(i)

Wife of Mike


From: Kathleen M Wildman <kmwildma@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 14:04:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: auto desubscribe?

I appear to have been unsubscribed through no action by me.  This 
happened last Monday; I simply stopped receiving messages.  Can anyone shed 
light on this?  Thanks.  (I have resubscribed.)

Kathy Wildman
Graduate Student
Washington University


From: perry.stepp@chrysalis.org
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 95 14:05:19 

Re. the survey and Dr. Conrad's response--

Am I the only one who thinks there has been an honest misunderstanding (or a
series of honest misunderstandings) here?  And am I the only one who thinks
that network protocols were invented for precisely this reason--to avoid such

I for one value all the postings on this forum, whether from the learned
doctors or the beginners.  We all learn by seeing, and questions--even
seemingly from out of left field--can make us see things afresh.

Perry L. Stepp, Baylor University


From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:27:51 -0100
Subject: Re: B-Greek assumptions?

I totally agree with Carl Conrad and the follow-up posters. However, I
have not posted all my personal details in every posting because I
consider it to be too lengthy. But I will reconsider this matter
again! But the minimum must be the name and maybe a place/country.

Georg S. Adamsen, DK
- --
Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen, cand.theol.
Doctoral student at the Norwegian Lutheran
        School of Theology, Oslo, Norway
Bodoevej 62, DK-8200 Aarhus N
Phone +45 86 10 25 94
Email: gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk


From: Georg Stubkjaer Adamsen <gsadamsn@login.dknet.dk>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 20:33:48 -0100
Subject: Re: 1 Tim 2:12, AUTHENTEIN

Kenneth Litwak <kenneth@sybase.com> wrote:
>    I can't seem to find the issue on the shelf right now (I'm up late
> doing German for class tomorrow of course, and my IBM Proprinter does about
> one apge every twenty minutes!), but I know I've read an article on
> authentein in the Tyndale Bulletin in a 1993 or 94 issue.  If I come
> across it, I'll post the info.
> Othewise, Tim, you'll have to look for yourself.

Well, I did it (because it was in my bibliography, anyway).

Andrew C. Perriman: "What Eve did, What Women shouldn't Do: The Meaning of
_AYTHENTEO_ in 1 Timothy 2:12" in: Tyndale Bulletin 44.1, 1993, 129-142. The
article is based on his dissertation and is very readable and, I think,
correct in its interpretation. Perriman also has an article in the 1994
volume of JTS (AFAI remember) on the meaning of _kephale_ in 1 Corinthians. I
can't find it, haven't read is but superficially but do it yourself. I am
almost sure that it will repay the effort.

- --
Georg S. Adamsen, Denmark


From: "The Rev. David R. Graham" <merovin@halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 95 15:33:40 PDT
Subject: Jn 19:39 -- Altered Reality

Some thoughts on The Burial:

There are two kinds of miracles: those which affect or alter the physical 
realm and those which do not.  Miracles of the first kind always occur 
through the agency of an aspect of a human personality.  This can be 
various:  a hand, a word, a touch, some spittle, a breath, etc.

The resurrection of Jesus was a miracle which affected or altered the 
physical realm.  Therefore, it occurred through the agency of an aspect of a 
human personality.  What was that agency?

Nicodemus brings a large amount of myrrh and aloes to the chamber where 
Joseph has taken Jesus' body.  He could not carry it all himself and was 
helped by family servants.  The cost of these commodities was enormous, 
indicating that the circle of Jesus' disciples included the wealthiest and, 
presumably, most educated persons of the society.  The 12 rustics are not 

The tail of v40 notwithstanding, this type and amount of commodity was not 
for a burial.  It was for a healing.  Specifically, it was for a full-body 
poultice.  The man was neither body-nor brain-dead and he was revived.

Why would the writer say the commodities were per Jewish burial custom?  
Ignorance?  Not likely.  A more subtle purpose must be adduced.  That the 
writer knew these commodities were not Jewish burial custom yet said they 
were is the conundrum.  By specifying both the type and the amount of the 
commodities, the writer has deliberately signaled that something other than 
Jewish burial custom was afoot.

vs41-42 contain another deliberate dissonance.  The writer has placed a 
"garden" at "Golgatha," which means barren as a skull.  There is an 
evocation, also, of Psalmists, the Sons of Korah, which means skull 
(Jerome's point.)  Why would the writer put a garden at a wasteland, a zone 
of torture and despicable demise?  Ignorance?  Was there in fact such a 
thing?  That Joseph, a rich man, had made for himself?  Do you know a rich 
man who builds his burial plot next to a death chamber for seditionists?  
Usually, men and women of means select a place of more gracious mien, isn't 
it?  Or, did Joseph divine what was coming, well in advance, and build the 
garden and tomb there against the day it would be needed for what he and 
Nicodemus were now about?  Under Roman eyes, let and leave?  Possible but 

The "garden" at "Golgatha" is another signal that something other than 
Jewish burial custom was afoot.  Literary license in the service of truth?  
Interesting thought.

A good doctor and skilled nurses and a man who isn't body-or brain-dead -- 
and has more of duty to do -- are ingredients for a revival which can be 
portrayed as a miracle even while the truth of it is signaled sub rosa 
through clever and no doubt necessary literary ruses.  The miracle in this 
case is that the man had friends who cared to bring him around.  And these 
were not of the 12 of whom we laterly hear so much so trumpeted.

All the best,

- -------------------------------------
The Rev. David R. Graham
Adwaitha Hermitage
Professor of Philosophy
Sri Sathya Sai Institute of Higher Learning

E-mail: merovin@halcyon.com
Date: 04/06/95
Time: 13:41:10
- -------------------------------------


From: Carl W Conrad <cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 19:24:39 -0500 (CDT)

On Sun, 30 Apr 1995 perry.stepp@chrysalis.org wrote:
> Re. the survey and Dr. Conrad's response--
> Am I the only one who thinks there has been an honest misunderstanding (or a
> series of honest misunderstandings) here?  And am I the only one who thinks
> that network protocols were invented for precisely this reason--to avoid such
> misunderstandings?
> I for one value all the postings on this forum, whether from the learned
> doctors or the beginners.  We all learn by seeing, and questions--even
> seemingly from out of left field--can make us see things afresh.
Well, I must say that I am inclined to think there has indeed been some 
misunderstanding here. I think that I misunderstood some of what Brian 
McElroy was trying to get at and I know that I was misunderstood from my 
initial reaction to Brian's note as opining that only professionals 
should be posting here (certainly not my intent at all). My initial 
reaction was concern that we might start getting a flood of personal 
religious testimonials on a forum where they really don't belong; the 
fact that the request came without any signature did irk me, as in fact 
any posting to the list without some minimal identification of the sender 
irks me.

As things have turned out, Brian has had lots of personal mail bringing 
him the information he asked for in the survey, and I think (personally) 
that it is better that such information be passed on in private postings 
rather than to the list. Finally, while I have been pleased to see 
support for my articulation of what I take to be the "assumptions" of the 
list, it has been somewhat embarrassing to be the focus of many notes in 
defense of me against the supposed flame-thrower who did, as he admitted, 
misunderstand me and thought I was trying to discourage input from the 
non-professionals. I thank all those who sprang to my defense, but I am 
much more gratified at the consensus that seems to exist about what the 
list is all about.

And now, please, may we get back to serious discussion of issues 
centering on BIBLICAL GREEK? Thanks one and all. 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University
One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO 63130, USA
(314) 935-4018
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu  OR cwc@oui.com


From: Mike Adams <mikadams@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 21:14:36 -0700
Subject: ARETH???

I have a real question, (for a change). I was doing a study in II Peter 
1:5-11, on the progression in Christian growth that is described here. 
It seems to be rich territory for practical application, because we are 
to be personally and earnestly involved in this growth.

With all diligence we are to add to our faith areth and to areth 
knowledge (gnwsis), etc... Whatever this areth stuff is, it is so 
elementary that it is the first quality the fledgling Christian should 
incorporate into his character after conversion. It is a key element to 
developing the other qualities listed afterwards.

But what is it? This little word is used in three other places in the 
NT and in KJV is translated "virtue" in all except I Peter 2:9 where it 
is translated "praise". In this instance, it's a quote from the 
Septuagint. I have no Septuagint, so I visited a nearby library and 
found several occurances of areth translated as "praise". I know of no 
linguistic "cousins" which might shed more light on this little word. 
I'm having a hard time reconciling the meaning "praise" with the 
meaning "virtue", and especially a difficult time in a applying it 
practically in this sequence.

My "tool chest" is very sparse. Anyone have anything on it?

Just Ellen
(Wife of Mike)


End of b-greek-digest V1 #688


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