b-greek-digest V1 #881
b-greek-digest Saturday, 30 September 1995 Volume 01 : Number 881
In this issue:
Re: More questions on Mark
Re: More questions on Mark
PISTIS in Romans 1 again
Re: Classical Greek, etc. (long)
From: Larry Chouinard <email@example.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:37:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sinaiticus/Vaticanus
While I know that the below inquiry had reference to facsimilies of
Siniaticus and Vaticanus I could not help but be reminded of an incident
that occurred a couple years ago at Kentucky Christian college. Being
situated in a very rural area, our librarian had a local
preacher request to check out the Dead Sea Scrolls in the King James
Kentucky Christian College
On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, David Rising wrote:
> As a relatively new comer to the e-discussion phenomena, I have enjoyed
> listening in one some great discussions.
> Does anyone know where I could get hard copies of Sinaiticus or
> Vaticanus? I would like to beef up my reading skills in uncials (as well
> as put more in my library). Thanks in advance for any help.
> I am spending equal time these days in BH and the GNT and I would love to
> hear some discussion on how NT writers may have used Semitic conventions
> in the different genre of the NT or even classical Greek.
> | David J. Rising |
> | firstname.lastname@example.org |
> | Factoryville, PA |
> | 717-945-3850 |
From: Bruce Terry <email@example.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:34:13 CST
Subject: Re: More questions on Mark
On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, >Jim McGuire wrote:
>On 9-28-95, Bruce Terry wrote:
><<Apparently you missed the discussion earlier this year in which it was
>out that the LXX of Ex. 3:14 has hO WN used alone of God rather than EGW
>First it says EGW EIMI hO WN "I am the Being" and then it says hO WN
>APESTALKEN ME PROS hUMAS "The Being sent me to you." However, this is not
>equivalent of Yahweh; that in verse 15 is KURIOS.>>
>Bruce, you are disagreeing with scholars greater than me on this issue. A.T.
>Robertson comments on John 8:58 saying, "Undoubtedly here Jesus claims
>eternal existence iwth the absolute phrase used of God" (Word Pictures in the
>New Testament, Vol. V, pp. 158-9). Even in John 8:24, he says, "Jesus seems
>to claim absolute divine being as in 8:58" (p. 146).
>As for this use in the LXX of the Old Testament, see Deuteronomy 32:39. An
>astounding similar phrase occurs in Isaiah 43:10 where the very words occur
>HINA PISTEUSETE---HOTI EGO EIMI. Furthermore, Kittel regards the same
>quoting Isaiah 43:10 as well. He says, "He is equal with the Father....The
>point is not Jesus' self-identification as the Messiah ("I am he") but his
>supratemporal being" (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Abridged in
>One Volume, ed. by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, p. 207).
>Such noteable scholarship as Baur, Arndt, and Gingrich include the LXX of
>Exodus 3:14 in the same section as John 8:58, discussing EGO EIMI used its
>reference to God (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 223).
(with egg on my face)
Jim, where were you and Larry in the discussion earlier this year? Thanks for
the passages in Deut. and Isa. where EGW EIMI is used in the LXX of God;
however, I note in my defense that in neither place does EGW EIMI translate
)HYH (Hebrew for "I am" and probable cognate with YHWH "Yahweh"). And while I
was wrong on EGW EIMI (although note that I pointed out that it once
translates )HYH in Ex. 3:14), I still maintain that it is KURIOS (and
sometimes QEOS) that translates YHWH in the LXX, not EGW EIMI.
I have no quarrel with the idea that John 8:24 and 58 are references to the
divinity of Jesus; certainly 8:58 is at the very least a claim for his
pre-existence (cf. 1:1). I do have qualms about Jesus' saying "it's me" as he
walks on the water being a claim for divinity. The same words in different
contexts do not always mean the same things.
Bruce Terry E-MAIL: firstname.lastname@example.org
Box 8426, ACU Station Phone: 915/674-3759
Abilene, Texas 79699 Fax: 915/674-3769
From: "Larry W. Hurtado" <email@example.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:02:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: More questions on Mark
On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Bruce Terry wrote:
> Jim, where were you and Larry in the discussion earlier this year? Thanks for
> the passages in Deut. and Isa. where EGW EIMI is used in the LXX of God;
> however, I note in my defense that in neither place does EGW EIMI translate
> )HYH (Hebrew for "I am" and probable cognate with YHWH "Yahweh"). And while I
> was wrong on EGW EIMI (although note that I pointed out that it once
> translates )HYH in Ex. 3:14), I still maintain that it is KURIOS (and
> sometimes QEOS) that translates YHWH in the LXX, not EGW EIMI.
> I have no quarrel with the idea that John 8:24 and 58 are references to the
> divinity of Jesus; certainly 8:58 is at the very least a claim for his
> pre-existence (cf. 1:1). I do have qualms about Jesus' saying "it's me" as he
> walks on the water being a claim for divinity. The same words in different
> contexts do not always mean the same things.
Bruce, My point in citing the passages in Isa 42-45 where the LXX has
"ego eimi" as a self-referential formula of God was that the formula is
such, and I never suggested it was a translation of YHWH. That's a
red-herring. The point is that the appearances of "ego eimi" in
theophanic contexts such as Mk 6 (storm-stilling miracle, just the sort
of thing God does e.g., in Ps 107, etc.) might well have been intended to
allude to the Greek of Isa 42-45 for lst cent. readers of the Greek of
Mark. (And part of the argument depends upon reading Mark in Greek, and
having as one's "bible" the Greek OT and being thus able to catch
allusions without having to ransack a concordance!).
I quite applaud your emphasis that words and phrases have their
meaning in contexts, and can vary from one to another. Precisely.
It's the appearance of this "ego eimi" formula in a narrative episode
that seems theophanic, and in a larger narrative (Mark) that seems
intent on asserting for Jesus a divine-like transcendent significance
- -- all this leads me to find in the particular "ego eimi" of Mark 6
something more than "It's me boys".
Larry Hurtado, Religion, Univ. of Manitoba
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:09:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: PISTIS in Romans 1 again
On 9-26 I asked,
>In 1:17, what is the meaning of EK PISTEWS EIS PISTIN?
and in part the BibAnsMan replied,
>It is the righteousness of God being evidenced or revealed
>from faith to faith to faith to faith. Paul is pointing to
>the individual believer's faith as it is revealed, whether
>he is Jew or Greek, or whatever he may be.
The answer confuses me (I am not sure what each "it" refers to). You
seem to take EK PISTEWS as an ablative of separation modifying the verb
APOKALUPTETAI. If so, just what does "to be revealed from faith" mean?
Somehow "Paul is pointing to the individual believer's faith as it (God's
righteousness or believer's faith?) is revealed" does not explain the
construction to me.
The NIV understands EK PISTEWS EIS PISTIN to modify DIKAIOSUNH. Can
something like this be justified (no pun intended) seeing these two
phrases are so far removed from DIKAIOSUNH?
A Question Man :)
David R. Mills
Applied English Center
University of Kansas
From: David Moore <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:47:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Classical Greek, etc. (long)
"Carl W. Conrad" <email@example.com> wrote:
>Be careful! In the course of some thirty +
>years of teaching Concordia Seminary students who just wanted to continue
>with classical Greek while taking their B.D., I've seen a few get so hooked
>on it that they've not pursued a ministerial career after all. One of those
>was the late John Hollar of Fortress Press, who did a Ph.D. dissertation
>with me; another who got a Ph.D. in Greek at Washington U. not long before
>I got there is Edgar Krentz, who can speak for himself to this list. I can
>say all this because I myself was an undergraduate at Tulane once with
>every intention of going into the ministry, but before I got that far I was
>hooked on Classical Greek.
There are also some classical scholars who have become competent
and have served quite well in the area of New Testament studies. A couple
of them that came to mind as I read Carl's post are J. B. Lightfoot and F.
F. Bruce. Others on the list could probably suggest some additional
David L. Moore Southeastern Spanish District
Miami, Florida of the Assemblies of God
firstname.lastname@example.org Department of Education
End of b-greek-digest V1 #881
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