Jn 17:5 position of παρὰ σοί

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cwconrad
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Jn 17:5 position of παρὰ σοί

Post by cwconrad » March 7th, 2014, 6:21 am

John 17:5 wrote:καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.
I've been asked whether the prepositional phrase at the end of this verse could be construed with the εἶναι of πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. I don't think so ("before the world was in your presence"?). But upon thinking about that, I realize that I've always been bothered by the position of παρὰ σοί at the end of the clause and separated from ᾗ εἶχον by πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. The syntax does seem to be understood by all in terms of ᾗ εἶχον παρὰ σοί as as unit with πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι as a temporal adverbial qualifier: "which I had in your presence before the world existed." Am I alone in finding the position of παρὰ σοί here strange?
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Hefin J. Jones
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Re: Jn 17:5 position of παρὰ σοί

Post by Hefin J. Jones » March 7th, 2014, 6:30 am

Just passing on the wisdom of others but S. Levinsohn's arguments in Chapter 3 of his Discourse Features of the Greek New Testament would argue that this is end of clause emphasis - or using his technical term "Dominant focal element" and his mark-ups of John 17 confirm that.
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Hefin Jones

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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Jn 17:5 position of παρὰ σοί

Post by Stephen Carlson » March 7th, 2014, 7:38 am

Yeah, I think the unmarked order would be εἶχον παρὰ σοὶ πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι (Levinsohn's default ordering principles has persons coming before temporal adjuncts), so transposing the two prepositional phrases should be marked.

To the extent that the word order is ambiguous as to which verb the finally placed παρὰ σοί modifies, either εἶχον or εἶναι, I don't think the theology of the evangelist permits the idea of a preexistent world that was not in the Father's presence.
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Mark Lightman
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Re: Jn 17:5 position of παρὰ σοί

Post by Mark Lightman » March 7th, 2014, 4:53 pm

cwconrad wrote:
John 17:5 wrote:καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.
Am I alone in finding the position of παρὰ σοί here strange?
οὐδεμῶς, φίλε. οὕτως γὰρ παράδοξον ἔδοκει τούτῳ μέν:
Nonnus of Panopolis Jn 17:5: καὶ σύ με νῦν κύδαινε τεῇ, πάτερ, ἠθάδι τιμῇ, ἣν παρά σοι πάρος εἶχον, ὅτε ζαθέῳ σέο μύθῳ οὔπω κτιζομένοιο θεμείλια πήγνυτο κόσμου.
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τούτῳ δέ:
Bambas Jn 17:5: καὶ τώρα δόξασόν με σύ, Πάτερ, πλησίον σου, μὲ τὴν δόξαν τὴν ὁποίαν εἶχον παρὰ σοὶ πρὶν γείνῃ ὁ κόσμος.
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βούλομαί σε ἐρρῶσθαι δή.

Μᾶρκος.
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Pat Ferguson
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Re: Jn 17:5 position of παρὰ σοί

Post by Pat Ferguson » March 8th, 2014, 6:54 pm

cwconrad asked, "Am I alone in finding the position of παρὰ σοί here strange?" Information available at, inter alia, newadvent.org, indicates you're not alone.

In several English translations of patristic allusions related to John 17:5, Irenaeus, Novatian, and Origen put παρὰ σοί in front of πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. Also, Ignatius omitted παρὰ σοί, and Hippolytus left out the phrase πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.
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"That upon which you set your heart and put your trust is properly your god." (Martin Luther, Large Catechism 1.1-3)

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