Tagging (was "Middle & Passive Aorist & Future forms)
Dr. Dale M. Wheeler
dalemw at multnomah.edu
Mon Dec 16 23:18:26 EST 2002
At 06:25 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>I've changed the header because we now have a thread on "Tagging."
>
>At 11:10 AM -0800 12/16/02, Dr. Dale M. Wheeler wrote:
> >To All:
> >
> >I think there has been a serious misunderstanding of what I was saying (or
> >perhaps a mis-speaking on my part)....and the misunderstanding has rapidly
> >spread...I got a note from Dan Wallace this morning from Germany indicating
> >that he'd heard that I was planning on changing the GRAMCORD tags! Let me
> >say this clearly: I'm not changing the GRAMCORD tags!
> >
> >Here's what I said to Dan (in a slightly altered form):
> >
> >>The only thing I've said is that I agree with Carl that the concept of
> >>deponency is fine for Latin, but it really doesn't explain the M/P
> >>phenomenon in Greek. This conclusion has only been strengthened while
> >>I've been fixing the tagging on the MorphLXX.
>
>I'll want to say something more about the question of properly tagging
>Greek verb-forms for voice, but I'll put that off. One brief (foot)note
>now: I honestly don't believe that the concept of deponency "is fine" for
>Latin any more than it is for Greek. First of all, so-called "deponent"
>verbs in Latin are no more "exceptions to a rule" in Latin than such verbs
>are in Greek. SEQUOR in Latin works exactly like hEPOMAI in Greek. If VOLVO
>in Latin means "I cause to roll," VOLVOR means "I
>roll/turn-myself-over-and-over." Latin passive verb forms may more often
>than not bear a passive sense, but it would be more truthful to say that
>the -r/ris/tur/mur/mini/ntur morphoparadigm is "middle-passive" just as is
>the Greek MAI/SAI/TAI/MEQA/SQE/NTAI morphoparadigm. I learned Latin long
>before I started learning Greek, but it was only after I learned the middle
>voice in Greek that the Latin so-called "deponent verbs" fell into place
>for me. All those verbs that take an instrumental ablative as if it were a
>direct object are fundamentally middle voice: UTOR, POTIOR, VESCOR, FUNGOR,
>etc.
>--
Carl:
Sorry...I was thinking about the conversation I had with Bernard Taylor,
one of the other Morph editors, about Latin "voice" and the origins of the
term "deponency", and he was simply pointing out that deponent comes from
the standard Latin grammar use to describe their middle voice type
verbs...or something to that effect. I guess these discussions have become
one big blur...sorry about that. Its interesting that you say the same
situation obtains in Latin as in Greek, since its my understanding from
these conversations (I could be wrong!) that Greek grammarians got it from
Latin grammarians.
***********************************************************************
Dale M. Wheeler, Ph.D.
Research Prof., Biblical Languages Multnomah Bible College
8435 NE Glisan St. Portland, OR 97220
V: 503-2516416 E: dalemw at multnomah.edu
***********************************************************************
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