Luke 23:43 (meaning of PARADEISOS)

Madagoo mail at madagoo.f9.co.uk
Thu Oct 3 12:59:49 EDT 2002


Hi Iver & Conrad,

I have pondered over this scriptures for a few years and wonder whether you
might agree that it is at least possible that Jesus was introducing a new
thought here (perhaps) hitherto not known? How might we take account of such
an occurrence? Some commentators seem to have Hades as a superset of "Bosom
of Abraham" plus the "place of torment." However, the text in question
speaks of a gulf between the two. This has caused me to muse over the
possibility that Jesus was clarifying/correcting a misunderstanding among
the Jews, and indicating that in some way, the Bosom of Abraham (perhaps
otherwise identified as Paradise) was a staging post en route to Heaven
prior to his own resurrection, hereafter the place of departed should is
immediately with Christ in paradise/heaven as we traditionally know it.

I would welcome your insights and interactions with this line of thought.

Yours
Malcolm Goodwin

[Moderator's note: this is a highly speculative question that moves away from what 
the Greek text states into what may be perilous guesswork; may I ask that 
respondents stay as close to what the Greek texts tell us as possible in discussing
this matter, please? Thanks. cwc]

-----Original Message-----
From: Iver Larsen [mailto:iver_larsen at sil.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:27 PM
To: Biblical Greek
Subject: [b-greek] Re: Luke 23:43 (meaning of PARADEISOS)


Carl said:
> While I have no way to disprove Iver's speculative account of meanings of
> hO PARADEISOS in the GNT and especially in Lk 23:43, I have to express a
> considerble measure of skepticism about the notion that there was a
> distinct and "orthodox" or at least "standard" eschatological conception
> prevalent withing first-century Judaism according to which hO PARADEISOS
> (the Greek word standing for which Hebrew or Aramaic word?) indicates an
> abode of the saved equivalent to "the bosom of Abraham." It's been several
> years since I researched this matter, but my impression is that there were
> two different views taught by the rabbis regarding the immediate
> post-mortal condition: according to one of them the dead sleep (the GNT
> refers to KOIMASQAI or the like) until the day or resurrection & judgment;
> according to the other the righteous go immediately to a
> temporary heavenly
> abode where they are "with God" but will come with the Messiah at the
> end-time and participate then in the resurrection of bodies and final
> judgment. What I seriously doubt is that there was any single "standard"
> conception held by Jewish believers of all sects in Palestine and the
> Diaspora. At any rate, I wonder why Iver is so confident of the view of hO
> PARADEISOS that he has expressed--and that Jesus would have addressed the
> criminal in the passage in question in terms of an eschatological
> conception that is different from that which he himself held. I certainly
> wouldn't claim that cannot be; I just don't see how it is demonstrable.

I can see that my statement "people at the time" was not careful enough. I
did not mean to say that all Jews at the time had the same view.

In what way would Jesus be addressing the criminal in terms of an
eschatological conception that is different from what he himself held? I had
not thought that he did. Does the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in
Luke 16 not give an indication of the "eschatological conception" of Jesus?
That is, the innocent beggar was carried in spirit by the angels to the
bosom of Abraham after death. The rich man woke up after death in Hades in a
tormenting fire. There are clearly two separate places that people's spirits
go to after death, according to this parable of Jesus. Only later will there
be a bodily resurrection from both places - although not at the same time.
There is no indication that their spirits were asleep until the
resurrection. Where would the spirit of the forgiven criminal go to? Where
would the spirit of Jesus go to? None would end up in the tormenting fire.
While the parable says that people are not able to cross from one side to
the other after death, for God nothing is impossible, and Jesus apparently
did go for a visit to Hades in his spirit after death and before his
resurrection.

I am not intending to further a particular theology, but trying to collate
the various sayings of Jesus, Paul and Peter about this concept that we do
not know much about. It is relevant to Luke 23:43 in that the interpreters'
assumption of what Paradise stands for, heavily influences how they read the
passage.

Iver Larsen


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