[B-Greek] John 13:4-5 present tenses

Eric Weiss eweiss at gte.net
Thu Mar 13 11:06:30 EST 2003


My "problem" with regarding the "historical present" as the explanation 
(which was my first thought -- and I know that some, including Porter, I 
believe, challenge the concept of the "historical present") is that I 
would have expected DIEZWSEN to be in the present also -- unless the use 
of the aorist participle LABWN would cause the author to use the aorist 
for DIEZWSEN. In 13:12 you'd also expect LEGEI instead of EIPEN AUTOIS. 
But maybe I'm making a sermonological mountain out of a historical 
present molehill!

Polycarp66 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/13/2003 9:48:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> eweiss at gte.net writes:
>
>> Stanley Porter seems to believe that time isn't a factor with ANY of the
>> tenses, not even the indicative, as I recall from my reading of his
>> Idioms book. In John 13:4-5, is this part of the explanation for the
>> tenses here -- i.e., the present tense is being used to convey a
>> continuous, deliberative activity, in contrast to the aorist tense which
>> is simply stating the action?
>>
>> EGEIRETAI EK TOU DEIPNOU KAI TIQHSIN TA hIMATIA, KAI LABWN LENTION
>> DIEZWSEN hEAUTON. EITE BALLEI hUDWR EIS TON NIPTHRA KAI HRXATO NIPTEIN
>> TOUS PODAS TWN MAQHTWN KAI EKMASSEIV TWi LENTIWi hWi HN DIEZWSMENOS.
>>
>> "He [Jesus] rises (present m/p) from the supper and removes (present)
>> his outer-garments, and after-taking (aorist ptc.) a towel he girded
>> (aorist) himself; then he pours (present) water into the washbasin and
>> he began (aorist) to-wash (present inf.) the feet of the disciples and
>> to-wipe (present inf.) [them] with-the towel with-which he-is-girded
>> (perfect ptc.)"
>>
>> Assuming I didn't make any transcription or copying or translation
>> errors, is John depicting or conveying the actions of Jesus raising
>> himself.and removing his outer garments and pouring the water and
>> washing and wiping the disciples' feet as being more "vivid" or as
>> continuous, protracted activities by his use of the present tense
>> (indicative and infinitive) -- in contrast to the aorist for "he took a
>> towel and girded himself" (and "began")?
>>
>> Normal English would probably translate this as: "Jesus rose from the
>> supper and removed his outer garment, and took a towel and wrapped it
>> around his waist. He then poured water into the washbasin and began to
>> wash his disciples' feet and dry them with the towel he had wrapped
>> around himself." All the presents would be changed to past tenses. Do we
>> lose something by translating it into English this way, and if so, what
>> do we lose -- i.e., what nuances or things did John mean to convey by
>> these present tenses? Did he mean that Jesus slowly rose from the table,
>> and carefully/methodically removed his outer garments, and slowly poured
>> water into the washbasin, and slowly/deliberately/carefully washed and
>> dried his disciples' feet?
>
>
>
> I think what we have here is an historical present, i.e. the use of 
> the present tense to portray a past event in a vivid way so as to 
> highlight it.  Wallace notes that John uses the historical present 162 
> times whereas Luke uses it only 11 times.  He also notes that it is 
> used mostly by less educated writers while more literary authors tend 
> to avoid it.  This would be in keeping with the character of Luke as 
> being "better Greek".  It is notable that John has no account of the 
> supper itself.  This may be the reason for desiring to highlight the 
> actions which occurred immediately following the supper.  It becomes 
> the cultic highpoint.
>
> gfsomsel


-- 
Eric S. Weiss
http://home1.gte.net/vzn05pnm/index.htm
S.D.G.





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