[B-Greek] TOUS PEPISTEUKOTAS = EK TOU PATROS TOU DIABOLOU?

bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca
Mon Mar 17 17:21:40 EST 2003


> 
> From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:51:25 +0300
> To: <bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca>, 
> 	<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] TOUS PEPISTEUKOTAS = EK TOU PATROS TOU DIABOLOU?
> 
> > As I continues reading John 8, I came upon something else that
> > puzzled me. In verse 31 Jesus started to speak to TOUS
> > PEPISTEUKOTAS AUTWi IOUDAIOUS, to the Jews, having believed in
> > him, or, to the believing Jews. Then in verse 44 he says that
> > they belong to their father the Devil.
> > How are these two statements to be reconciled?
> > PEPISTEUKOTAS is a perfect participle is it not?
> > Several of the English translations translate it as a pluperfect
> > ie; -the Jews who had believed him- (but don't anymore). Is this
> > translation in spite of the Greek tense or am I missing
> > something? Maybe it is a pluperfect participle, I wouldn't know
> > what one would look like. Thanks in advance.
> > Bert de Haan
> 
> My guess is that you are puzzled by the misleading paragraph and section
> breaks and unhelpful section titles in the UBS text. Ignoring these breaks
> and titles and looking at the situation and using the context should clear
> up the fog, I hope.
> 
> In the section beginning at 8:12 Jesus is addressing the whole crowd of
> people present with a general comment: "I am the light of the world etc".
> Immediately a subgroup within his audience, identified as the Pharisees,
> speak up against Jesus in v. 13, and verses 14-19 describe the dispute
> between Jesus and the Pharisees. V. 20 is a background narrator comment that
> this took place in a public spot in the temple courts where many Jews
> including Pharisees could be expected to be present.
> V. 21-29 continues the dispute between Jesus and the Pharisees, now called
> the "Jews" in v. 22 (It is generally accepted that John's use of "Jews"
> refers to those Jewish religious leaders who did not believe in him and
> constantly opposed him.)
> v. 30 is a side comment by the narrator where he says that in spite of the
> dispute between Jesus and the Pharisees, many of the common people believed
> in Jesus as he spoke. v. 31 continues to say that it was to those ordinary
> people that believed in him that Jesus spoke in 31b and 32.
> In an idiomatic translation, I would set apart verses 30-32 as a separate
> paragraph or even a separate section with a title like "Many in the crowd
> believed in him". Unfortunately, no English translation that I am aware of,
> has handled the section breaks properly at this point.
> Now Jesus had said to the believing common Jews in the crowd: "The truth
> will set you free!" Immediately, the Pharisees who were still standing
> there, shot back at Jesus without realizing that Jesus was not speaking to
> them: "We are the seed of Abraham and have never been enslaved!" From 33-59
> we are again back in a serious dispute between Jesus and the unbelieving
> Pharisees (or "Jews" as they are called in v. 48.)
> 
> Apart from the misleading paragraph breaks and section titles in the UBS
> text and most English translations, the problem is caused by a lack of
> familiarity with Greek discourse, especially introducing and tracking
> participants. Jesus is the main character, and the main character is usually
> in the Greek NT referred to by a pronoun. This is unlike English, where a
> proper name is often needed. The other main participant in 12-59 is the
> group of Pharisees. They are introduced in v. 12, but after that they are
> referred to by a plural pronoun and occasionally by "Jews". The AUTOIS in v.
> 21 refers back to the Pharisees introduced in v. 13, and a pronoun is
> enough, since these are the main participants apart from Jesus. But to help
> the reader, they are identified as "Jews" in the next verse.
> In v. 30 another minor group of participants is introduced by POLLOI, that
> is, many in the crowd, not the few Pharisees. This group is then referenced
> in the next verse by TOUS PEPISTEUKOTAS AUTWi IOUDAIOUS.
> The tricky thing comes in v. 33 where the narrator takes us back to the main
> participant group, the Pharisees, simply by a plural subject suffix included
> in the verb. They are identified from the content of the speech.
> 
> In summary, it would be helpful to divide into three sections:
> 12-20 Jesus - the light of the world
> 21-29 The Pharisees understand nothing and refuse to believe
> 30-32 Many in the crowd believe in Jesus
> 33-59 The conflict with the Jewish leaders escalates
> 
> Iver Larsen

Thanks for the explanation.
What would/could the evangelist have written in verse 33 instead of APEKRIQHSAN if he wanted to indicate that it was the many who believed who answered him?
I am asking this so that I may recognize this construction when I see it in another passage.
Bert de Haan
> 
> 



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