[B-Greek] 1John 3:19-20
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Oct 19 09:38:24 EDT 2003
At 10:52 AM -0400 10/17/03, Mike Marchywka wrote:
>Thanks.
>
>>If I've understood your posts thus far, my impression is that you are not
>>really very far along yet in learning Biblical Gree--and the following
>>remarks are based upon that assumption, which may be wrong (if so, please
>>don't take it amiss). For my part I would not advise relying upon this
>
>I have almost no background in Greek. I would like to learn mostly
>by lurking and asking a couple of specific questions.
>( I do belong to mail lists on subjects that I
>actually have backound in, I know these types of posts can get annoying
>after a while ...)
>If my interest is stimulated I hope to buy some materials and devote more
>time.
One further comment regarding this. As our FAQ clearly enough indicates,
participation in B-Greek calls for some degree of competence in Biblical
Greek, even if the participant is at least beginning to learn the language.
But if you do want to learn how the Greek works in Biblical texts, do not
expect to learn by absorption from messages here that discuss grammar; you
really have to grab the bull by the horns and either seek formal
instruction or begin working through an on-line course in Biblical Greek.
To the extent that you have NOT done that, even if you grasp the
conclusions offered in posts on this forum, you won't be able to understand
the grammatical reasoning by which those conclusions were reached. The
focus here is fundamentally on the Greek language and the Greek text of the
Bible, not upon general Biblical questions or interpretation of the
Biblical text as translated into English or another language.
>>I don't think, for my part, that it's a matter of emotion and reason but
>>rather of one's one judgment of one's behavior and God's judgment of one's
>>behavior.
>
>So, this is mostly a blanket/general statement that God's knowledge and
>decisions are able to overcome our bad decisions
>without any additional qualification? KARDIA
>appears to encompass the whole of human thinking. Is there anything
>it specifically excludes?
I don't think you have understood what I argued in the last post. My
understanding of 3:18-20 in the context of what has immediately preceded,
as I tried to express it, is that the writer is saying that if we suffer
pangs of conscience and feel that we are in the wrong about some issue (and
the chief issue in the context is attitude toward a fellow-believer), what
we must do is love with authenticity rather than hypocritically; if we do
so, then we'll know that we BELONG to "truth" (hOTI EK THS ALHQEIAS ESMEN:
lit. "that we are OF the Truth") and "before him(God)" we'll be able to win
over our heart/conscience; I take this to mean that we will rid ourselves
of any sense of guilt.
>>compassion for one's brother" (3;17) and claiming to love God. Then there's
>>the concern for ALHQEIA, which in this context might be "honesty" or
>>"authenticity" in one's relationship to God and one's "brother" (presumably
>>"fellow believer"). In my opinion, what the author is saying in this
>
>In 3:18, LOGOS is used when the translations ( to me anyway )
>read as if rhema
>(I'm using references like this
>http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4487
>)
>may have been the original. Could someone comment
>on this use of logos as contrasted with John 1? I take it
>that whatever logos is, it can be faked ( or else the sentence
>contributes nothing). If God has a logos aspect and a love aspect,
>then the command ME AGAPAW LOGOS sounds almost contradictory.
I have to say quite frankly that, in my opinion, your want of knowledge of
Greek is hindering your ability to understand the word usage in this verse.
Let me cite it, offer a "literal" version and then a re-formulation in more
intelligible English:
3:18 TEKNIA, MH AGAPWMEN LOGWi MHDE THi GLWSSHi ALLA EN ERGWi KAI ALHQEIAi.
Literally: "Little children, let us not love in word nor in speech but in
deed and truth."
Reformulated: "Dear ones, when we love (our fellow-believers), we mustn't
do so hypocritically or simply say that we love (them); rather we must do
so sincerely and by the way we act."
LOGOS in verse 18 has nothing to do with LOGOS in the Johannine prologue or
with any doctrine of God's nature; rather it is one half of a traditional
Greek antithesis that goes all the way back to fifth-century Athens: the
phrase using dative singular nouns LOGWi MEN ... ERGWi DE literally means
"in word, on the one hand ... but in deed, on the other." The formulaic
antithesis is based on the observation which almost every human being has
made, that people commonly and too frequently SAY they do something or will
do something, but fail to DO it. So LOGOS here has nothing to do with God's
rationality but everything to do with whether what we DO corresponds to
what we SAY.
>>the verb. In a judicial sense, one might say that GINWSKW means "reach a
>>verdict," while KATAGINWSKW means "reach a negative verdict," and in fact
>>that is the way KATAGINWSKW is commonly used in older Attic Greek in a
>>judicial or forensic context.
>
>Then this is more of a decision than knowledge (verdict versus evidence )?
Here again, I think, your problem is a failure to see that the Greek verb
GINWSKW doesn't correspond directly and simply in its full range of
meanings to the English word "know." I run the risk of oversimplifying what
it means by talking about it (one really needs to understand Greek well
enough to make use of a Greek lexicon that explains the whole range of
meanings of GINWSKW and illustrates those meanings by citing texts from
Greek writers. But it seems to me that GINWSKW most basically involves
comparative perception: its root sense seems to be "recognize" which means
to grasp that what is in view is identical with what one has in mind; from
that the meanings of GINWSKW range out over discernment and judgment as
drawing conclusions about what one perceives in terms of what one has
stored in one's mind. So GINWSKW can mean "I come to a verdict" and the
compound KATAGINWSKW can mean "I come to a negative verdict about ..." = "I
condemn" or "I judge to be in the wrong."
>When I first saw this term (again, pardon my ignorance ) I thought of
>gnosis.
>Are the words related somehow? (when I am able to use one I will buy
>a lexicon...)
And that was a valid observation: GNWSIS derives very directly from GINWSKW
and literally means "knowing" or "recognizing." However, in the religious
language of the first century of our era and later the word GNWSIS came to
have a distinct and esoteric meaning of "knowing" in a special way, in a
private sort of spiritual relationship to God or a higher reality, which is
to say a MYSTICAL kind of "knowing."
And yes, a lexicon will be useful: BUT an inexpensive, glossary-type
lexicon is almost worthless, while a GOOD lexicon is likely to be expensive
and will not really be useful unless or until you have acquired a
reasonably basic competence in Greek.
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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