[B-Greek] Acts 17,16
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Apr 3 10:00:31 EST 2004
At 3:15 PM +0300 4/3/04, Iver Larsen wrote:
>>
>> EN DE TAIS AQHNAIS EKDECOMENOU AUTOUS TOU PAULOU,
>> PARWXUNETO TO PNEUMA AUTOU EN AUTWi QEWROUNTOS
>> KATEIDWLON OUSAN THN POLIN
>>
>> Wallace lists OUSAN as "indirect discourse" per
>> Parsons/Culy (I don't have the source they have
>> sited). Can someone show me how this participle could
>> be considered "indirect discourse"? (Who was involved
>> in the "direct" discourse and what was imagined to
>> have been said?)
>>
>> =====
>> Eddie Mishoe
>> Pastor
>
>I have not read Wallace and I approach the grammar of Greek form a general
>descriptive linguistics background rather than traditional Greek grammar, so
>my comments my be at variance with tradition.
For the sake of those who may be less than fully aware of what "traditional
Greek grammar" actually says on this matter, let me cite Smyth §2110ff:
---------
§2110. Verbs of Perception.--Verbs signifying to see, perceive, hear, learn
(i.e. learn by inquiry, hear of), when they denote physical (actual)
perception take the participle. When they denote intellectual perception
they may take the participle or hoti or hôs with a finite verb. (The
Homeric usage is less strict.)
§2111. Such verbs are, in Attic, horô see, aisthanomai perceive, akouô
hear, punthanomai learn.
§2112. The participle may stand either not in indirect discourse or in
indirect discourse.
a. Not in Indirect Discourse.--Here verbs of perceiving denote physical
perception--the act perceived or heard of. With akouô and punthanomai the
participle stands in the genitive; with aisthanomai it usually stands in
the accusative (as with horô), but sometimes in the genitive. (See 1361,
1367.)
eide Klearchon dielaunonta he saw Clearchus riding through X. A. 1.5.12 ;
aisthomenos Lamproklea_ pros tên mêtera chalepainonta perceiving Lamprocles
angry with his mother X. M. 2.2.1 , êisthêsai pôpote mou ê
pseudomarturountos ê su_kophantountos; have you ever noticed me either
bearing false witness or playing the part of an informer? 4. 4. 11; êkousan
autou phônêsantos they heard him speaking X. S. 3 . 13; hôs eputhonto tês
Pulou kateilêmmenês when they learned of the capture of Pylos T. 4.6 .
N. Verbs of physical perception, horô (especially) and akouô, regularly
take the present participle in Attic prose, which usually refuses to
distinguish between I see a house burning and I see a house burn. The
complexive aorist, summing up the action, does however occur, as hôs eiden
elaphon ekpêdêsasan . . . ediôken when he saw a hind break cover he gave
chase X. C. 1.4.8 . Cp. pesonta eidon Hdt. 9.22.
b. In Indirect Discourse.--Here verbs of perceiving denote intellectual [p.
472] perception--the fact that something is perceived or heard of. With
akouô and punthanomai the participle stands in the accusative (as with
horô, aisthanomai). Cp. 1363, 1365, 2144, 2145.
horômen panta alêthê onta ha legete we see that everything you say is true
X. A. 5.5.24 , aisthanomai tauta houtôs echonta I perceive that this is so
X. M. 3.5.5 , êkouse Kuron en Kilikiai onta he heard that Cyrus was in
Cilicia X. A. 1.4.5 , hotan kluêi tinos hêxont' Orestên when she hears from
any one that Orestes will return S. El. 293 , puthomenoi Artaxerxên
tethnêkota having learned that Artaxerxes was dead T. 4.50 .
§2113. Verbs of Finding.--Verbs of finding and detecting (heuriskô,
(kata)lambanô; pass. haliskomai) in their capacity as verbs of perceiving
take the participle (a) not in indirect discourse, of the act or state in
which a person or thing is found; or (b) in indirect discourse, of the fact
that a person or thing is found in an act or state.
a. kêrux aphikomenos hêure tous andras diephtharmenous the herald, on his
arrival, found the men already put to death T. 2.6, heurêtai pistôs
pra_ttôn he has been found to have dealt faithfully D. 19.332 , a_n ar'
allon tina lambanêi pseudomenon if then he catch anybody else lying P. R.
389d , ên epibouleuôn haliskêtai if he be detected in plotting X. Ag. 8. 3.
b. dia tên Iliou halôsin heuriskousi sphisi eousan tên archên tês echthrês
they conclude that the beginning of their enmity was on account of the
capture of Ilium Hdt. 1.5 .
§2114. It is often difficult to distinguish the two constructions of 2113.
Thus, katalambanousi neôsti stasei tous tôn Athênaiôn enantious
ekpeptôkotas (T. 7.33) may mean they found that the anti-Athenian party had
been recently expelled by a revolution (ind. disc.) or them recently
expelled (not in ind. disc.). So katalambanousi . . . talla aphestêkota
they found the other cities in a state of revolt T. 1.59 (that they had
revolted would be possible). In the meaning discover, find katalambanô does
not take the aorist participle.
§2115. poiô meaning represent has the construction of the verbs of 2113.
Thus, plêsiazontas tous theous tois anthrôpois hoion t' autois poiêsai it
is possible for them (poets) to represent the gods as drawing nigh to men
I. 9.9. Cp. 2142.
==========
>Having said that, I agree with you and Steven that "indirect discourse" is
>not a helpful term to use here. Normally, indirect discourse is a clausal
>object of a verb of saying or thinking, not "seeing" as here.
Perhaps we should invent a better descriptive term, but those who have
learned that indirect discourse in Greek may take the form of acc.+ inf.
with verbs of telling and understanding, of acc. + ptc. with verbs of
perception, or of hOTI + nom. subject and finite verb in the appropriate
tense, the usage is not confusing.
>Would you say that "he saw a man coming down the street" is an example of
>indirect discourse?
No, but that construction in Greek is indeed traditionally understood as a
form of "indirect discourse" because it is a common collocation. But the
English equivalent is really "he saw a man come down the street."
>What about "he saw that a man was coming down the street"? Is that indirect
>discourse?
Yes, in the traditional understanding.
>In Acts 17,16 Paul is "very upset in his spirit (from) observing the city
>being idolatrous (full of idols)"
>
>REB: "he was outraged to see the city so full of idols."
>RSV: "as he saw that the city was full of idols."
There are several different translation strategies; two of the most common
are: (a) transform the acc.-inf/ptc. construction into a dependent noun
clause: "I saw that John was running"
(b) transform the acc.-inf/ptc. construction into an object + infinitive
sequence as complement to the verb: "I saw John run."
>It is possible in Greek (as in English) to use a full subordinate clause as
>the object for these verbs, introduced with hOTI or hINA (that), but it is
>more common in Greek just have a noun as object which may then be further
>qualified by a participial phrase/clause.
Yes, and this is equally true of the verbs of perception:
Mk 16:4 KAI ANABLEYASAI QEWROUSIN hOTI APOKEKULISTAI hO LIQOS
Jn 4:19 LEGEI AUTWi hH GUNH: KURIE, QEWRW hOTI PROFHTHS EI SU
>Some verbs take an infinitive with accusative, but QEWREW is not one of
>them.
No; rather QEWREW is one of those verbs of perception that may take a
participle with an accusative:
Mk 5:15 ... QEWROUSIN TON DAIMONIZOMENON KAQHMENON hIMATISMENON KAI
SWFRONOUNTA, TON ESCHKOTA TON LEGIWNA
LK 10:18 ... EQEWROUN TON SATANAN hWS ASTRAPHN EK TOU OURANOU PESONTA.
Lk 24:39 ... IDETE, hOTI PNEUMA SARKA KAI OSTEA OUK ECEI KAQWS EME QEWREITE
ECONTA.
Jn 6:19 ... QEWROUSIN TON IHSOUN PERPATOUNTA EPI THS QALASSHS KAI EGGUS TOU
PLOIOU GINOMENON ...
Jn 6:62 EAN OUN QEWRHTE TON hUIONTOU ANQRWPOU ANABAINONTA hOPOU HN TO
PROTERON ...
Jn 10:12 hO MISQWTOS ... QEWREI TON LUKON ERCOMONON KAI AFIHSIN TA PROBATA ...
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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