TIS and grammatical gender (Was Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 5:8
Ann Nyland
accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au
Fri Jan 16 03:46:13 EST 2004
Hi Alex (and all),
You said, "However, the genders of these words don't really matter as I see
it." Yes, I think that's a vital point both for the initial question, and in
general for persons who are unaware of languages other than English and
think Greek grammatical gender has biological male or female "nuances" in
the New Testament. Thus, in my view, it cannot be overstated to the public
at large that Greek assigns grammatical gender to persons, things, concepts,
and in fact to all nouns, adjectives, and pronouns, and that the grammatical
gender can be at odds with biological gender.
We have spoken about Poythress and his BGAD review - here is a quote from
Poythress's sometime coauthor Wayne Grudem about 1 Cor. 14:28 which hinges
on TIS which he apparently (as far as I can tell) sees as "male-specific".
Grudem states, "Many modern English style books would look at 1 Corinthians
14:28 and suggest that Paul should rewrite it with plurals, 'The speakers
should keep quiet in the church and speak to themselves and God.' If modern
writers are composing their own sentences and wish to recast a sentence in
this way, or if they want to say 'speak to himself or to herself and God,'
or if they want to change their sentence in some other way, then they are
free to do so, provided that they are writing their own sentences and not
tranlsating the words of the Bible. But if we are translating what Paul
wrote, then we are not free to change his male-spceific example into a
plural sentence or something else that fails to represent accurately what he
wrote."
Here is the Greek: EITE GLWSSHi TIS LALEI, KATA DUO H TO PLEISTON TREIS KAI
ANA MEROS, KAI EIS DIERMHNEUETW; EAN DE MH H DIERMHNEUTHS, SIGATW EN
EKKLHSIA, hEAUTWi DE LALEITW KAI TWi QEWi.
It is interesting that he sees a "male-specific example" here in the Greek.
Ann Nyland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Loney" <aloney at umich.edu>
To: "mrt" <mrt at hisurfer.net>; "b-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:09 PM
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 5:8
> I would not dispute the definitions given for IDIWN or OKEIWN by Michael.
> I don't know about the specifics of each, other than to say that IDIWN
> can in some Greek dialects be a two-ending adjective. I come from a
> classical training, so I can not say if three or two endings is more
> common for this word in the NT. But conceivabley, IDIWN could be feminine.
> However, the genders of these words don't really matter as I see it.
>
> I think that IDIWN and OIKEIWN, as substantives modifying the verb
PORNOEI,
> should not require the same gender as TIS. They are generalized
substantive
> adjectives, which for a collective group of people Greek does in the
> masculine gender. Secondly, none of the other subject related words in
> verse 8 must be taken as masculine: TIS can be masc. or fem. (vide verse
> 4: TIS XHRA), as can XEIRWN, and even APISTOU. Nothing about this sentence
> in isolation says to me that the subject must be male.
>
> In context, where verse 4 speaks of offspring who are urged to provide for
> the widows, verse 8 appears to hit upon the same thought in a strictly
> generalized way. TIS is the masculine indefinte pronoun for any one
person,
> male or female. It by extention means all people who, in this case, do not
> care for their family and household. For example, we do not say that the
> beatitudes or Matthew 5, because they are masculine, only apply to men.
>
>
> P.S. This is my first post to the list. Sorry if I messed up any
protocols.
>
>
> -----------------------
> Alexander Loney
> University of Michigan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of mrt
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 10:07 PM
> To: b-Greek
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 5:8
>
>
> dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org Pastor David Bielby writes:
>
> EI DE TIS TWN IDIWN KAI MALISTA...1 Ti 5:8 I have a question about 1 Ti
5:8.
> In this context Paul seems to be talking about women (widows)...but then
> makes a statement about caring for ones family and uses the masculine
> gender. Is this a universal application that really means men and women?
> Or is it a masculine only application? Specifically what does TWN IDIWN
mean
> in this verse?
> ________
>
> Hi Pastor David,
>
> I take TWN IDIWN as referring to their own relatives and then what
precedes
> is a more narrow focus: and especially/most of all those members of his
> household (MALISTA OIKEIWN).
>
> So relatives (broad category) to ----> immediate family
>
> Now to answer your question, both TWN IDIWN (one's own [relatives]) and
> OIKEIWN (household) just generally refer to the relatives and family
members
> whether male or female. So it can mean grandma, grandpa, aunt, uncle,
> daughter, son etc. The masculinity of these words is simply agreeing with
> TIS (anyone).
>
> Michael Tarver
> Oregon, USA
> <'\\>< laus Deo
>
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