TIS and grammatical gender (Was Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 5:8

Michael Holmes holmic at bethel.edu
Fri Jan 16 16:14:17 EST 2004


It seems to me that it is precisely "the understanding of the text" (to
quote from PZ's comment) that is the point of concern here: how does the
Greek language handle/deal with the matter of grammatical gender? The
argument has been made--and widely distributed in some circles--that there
is an essential "male component of meaning" associated with certain words
when a grammatical masculine gender marker is associated with them, and
further, that if a sentence that begins with a generalizing TIS later
incorporates a masculine pronoun, then it rules backward to determine the
gender of the TIS--which then is not a generalizing plural (sort of like the
tail wagging the dog, no?) The discussion during the last day or so has
addressed, it seems to me, precisely this matter. The answer will certainly
affect how one translates the text, but the discussion itself is focused on
what the text signifies, and thus surely falls within the parameters of the
list, I would think. Moreover, the effort/struggle to translate is often a
useful means to test how well we understand what the Greek says, or to raise
questions about how Greek "works."

Moreover, the "PC" charge can cut both ways, and like many two-edged swords,
is perhaps best left in the closet.
Michael Holmes
Bethel College
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Zellmer" <paul at smcfm.org>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: TIS and grammatical gender (Was Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 5:

> Since we have all basically agreed that grammatical gender does not
require
> the interpretation of actual gender, would it be too much to ask the list
to
> leave the argument of translation with the translation list?  Whether or
not
> the current interpretation "by many if not most" stated below is accurate
> (and that accuracy, BTW, is very much in question across the board), the
> English interpretation does not seem to have any real influence on most of
> the responders' understanding of the Greek text.
>
> I left the translation list to stop having to cut through these PC
arguments
> that added little or nothing to the understanding of the text.  Please,
can
> we take it there if it is really important to us?
>
> Paul Zellmer
> Orangeburg, SC
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Kathleen Creager
> > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 12:20 PM
> > To: Polycarp66 at aol.com; eluchil404 at yahoo.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: TIS and grammatical gender (Was Re: [B-Greek] 1 Timothy 5:8
> >
> >
> > Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that today's contributions to
this
> > thread have all substantially agreed with each other, i.e. that
masculine
> > grammatical gender does not necessarily imply masculine nature,
> > but somehow
> > are being read as disagreements.
> >
> > > In a message dated 1/16/2004 11:33:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > eluchil404 at yahoo.com writes:
> > > >The phrasing "Let he who speaks keep quiet in
> > > > church and speak to himself and God" which Grudem
> > > > evidently prefers is only accurate where he/him is the
> > > > the singular pronoun of indefinate gender.  IF such an
> > > > interpretation is not availible than that translation
> > > > is not accurate.
> >
> > My understanding of Cirk Bejnar's point above (Cirk, obviously, please
> > correct me if I'm wrong):
> > is that use of the singular he/him in English, while it may have been
> > interpreted as gender neutral by most people at some point in the past,
is
> > currently interpreted by many if not most as meaning exclusively
> > male.  And,
> > for that reason, use of the plural in English better conveys the sense
of
> > the Greek.  Which, I think, agrees with Ann Nyland.  And with the many
of
> > you who have been discussing this today!
> >
> > Kathleen Creager
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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