[B-Greek] Re: "Forever" and "to be" (was "Re: Hebrews 1:8")

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Jul 3 09:20:34 EDT 2004


In my initial post with this subject-header on Friday, July 1 I indicated
that I was a bit uncomfortable commenting on what was in fact a snippet
from Jason Debuhn's chapter on Heb 1:8 in his book _Truth in Translation_
without having read the chapter; Robert Newman has amply demonstrated why I
did and should have felt uncomfortable about doing so, but I felt there was
a claim being put forward that was questionable. I still find that claim
questionable, but I am relieved to be informed that Professor Beduhn does
not deny that the conventional understanding of the text (hO QEOS
functioning as a vocative, ESTIN PROS TON AIWNA as predicate of hO QRONOS
SOU) is a valid understanding of the Greek, and that his argument is
primarily that the translation, "God is your throne forever," is
preferable. As I concluded in that earlier post, it seemed to me that Rolf
Furuli was more straightforward in stating that both readings of the text
are grammatically plausible and that a preference for either over the other
depends fundamentally upon one's theological orientation. I'd be happy to
leave the discussion with that affirmation, but I feel that I must explain
my own reasoning with regard to the passages I cited in that earlier post.

My quest for evidence in the GNT was made somewhat more difficult by a want
of clarity (so it seemed to me) in the snippet from BeDuhn:

>>He writes "Furthermore, there is no other example in the Bible where
>>the expression "Forever" stands alone as a predicate phrase with the
>>verb "to be" as it would if the sentence were read "Your throne is
>>forever." "Forever" always functions as a phrase complementing either
>>an action verb, or a predicate noun or pronoun."

I understood this to mean that "forever"--or the equivalent phrase in
Hebrew or Greek--is said to be found ONLY as a phrase complementing a
transitive verb or a predicate nominative; it seemed to me that clearly
intransitive verbs such as MENEIN and ZHN were sufficiently comparable to
EINAI that when used with EIS TON/TOUS AIWNA/AIWNAS they would constitute a
parallel to the clause in Heb 1:8 construed as hO QRONOS SOU (ESTIN) EIS
TON AIWNA; I also assumed that "pronoun" was essentially a nominative
pronoun, not a pronoun in an oblique case used as a modifier of the verb
"be" whether that verb is implicit or explicit. And that is why I drew the
conclusion that BeDuhn was claiming that only copulative usage of EINAI
should be found in the GNT, not existential usage. Robert has shown/argued
that my examples from doxologies with a dative pronoun and a subject DOXA
or equivalent and a predicate EIS TON/TOUS AIWNA/AIWNAS fall under that
"pronoun" element in the categorization of Biblical "be forever" clauses.
He's insisted too that John 14:16 (hINA MEQ' hUMWN EIS TON AIWNA Hi) and 2
John 1:2 (... KAI MEQ' hHMWN ESTAI EIS TON AIWNA) fail to meet the criteria
because EIS TON AIWNA in these clauses must construe not with the
existential Hi/ESTAI but with MEQ' hUMWN or MEQ' hHMWN -- and therefore
these clauses are not parallel to hO QRONOS SOU EIS TON AIWNA.

I'm still puzzled as to how "action verb" is to be understood: I would have
thought that "abide/remain" or "live" or "stand" as intransitive
expressions of endurance are outside the category of "action verb" and
therefore that "abide forever" or "live forever" or "stand forever" are
parallels to the existential usage of "be" in "be forever." I continue to
think so.

My earlier search was in the GNT only; the text in question in Heb 1:8 is
actually a citation from the LXX, Psalm 45:6; I probably should have
searched the LXX first, and as it turns out, parallels to hO QRONOS SOU EIS
TON AIWNA are not hard to come by. And although I continue to think that
predicates constituted by MENEI EIS TON AIWNA and the like are sufficiently
parallel to what is sought, I shall nevertheless limit myself to predicates
consisting of "forever" and implicit (more common as in Psalm 45:6) or
explicit forms of "be":

Lam 5:19 SU DE KURIE EIS TON AIWNA KATOIKHSEIS;hO QRONOS SOU EIS GENEAN KAI
GENEAN -- I suppose it might be argued that KATOIKHSEIS is an "action
verb," but it seems to me that the two clauses of this verse are parallel
and that EIS GENEAN KAI GENEAN in the second is intended to be parallel to
EIS TON AIWNA in the first; unquestionably "be" or ESTIN is implicit in the
second clause. Particularly interesting here is the semantic equivalence of
hO QRONOS SOU EIS GENEAN KAI GENEAN and our text in Heb 1:8 hO QRONOS SOU
EIS TON AIWNA TOU AIWNOS.

Isaiah 30:8 ... hOTI ESTAI EIS hHMERAS KAIRWN TAUTA KAI hEWS EIS TON AIWNA
-- the prophet is talking about his oracles: they are to be forever -- and
ESTAI is explicit.

Eccl. 3:14 EGNWN hOTI PANTA hOSA EPOIHSEN hO QEOS AUTA ESTAI EIS TON AIWNA
-- here the predicate is simply ESTAI EIS TON AIWNA.

Psalm 119:160 (LXX Psalm 118:160) ... EIS TON AIWNA PANTA TA KRIMATA THS
DIKAIOSUNHS SOU

Psalm 104:31 (LXX Psalm 103) HTW hH DOXA KURIOU EIS TON AIWNA --one might
miss this if one were searching only in English: this is usually translated
"The glory of the Lord will endure forever." But in the Greek (HTW EIS TON
AIWNA) and in the Hebrew Y'Hi L'OLaM) "be forever" is spelled out.

But the single most significant parallel to the conventional understanding
of Psalm 45:6 as cited in Heb 1:8 is the psalmist's phrase, hOTI EIS TON
AIWNA TO ELEOS AUTOU. This clause constitutes a refrain found once in Psalm
107 (LXX Psalm 106  4x in Psalm 118 (LXX Psalm 117), no less than 26x in
Psalm 136 (LXX Psalm 135)! In this clause the verb "be" (EINAI) is implicit
rather than explicit, but that is precisely the case in our text under
discussion in Heb 1:8.

Finally, Robert asked in his original proposition regarding Jason BeDuhn's
claim regarding "be" and "forever" in Biblical texts:

>At 3:40 PM +0100 6/30/04, robert newman wrote:
>>I have two questions.
>>
>>1) Buduhn in his book Truth in Translation has a chapter on this verse.
>>He gives some powerful arguments, is this one sound?
>>
>>He writes "Furthermore, there is no other example in the Bible where
>>the expression "Forever" stands alone as a predicate phrase with the
>>verb "to be" as it would if the sentence were read "Your throne is
>>forever." "Forever" always functions as a phrase complementing either
>>an action verb, or a predicate noun or pronoun."
>>
>>Is there really no other example in the Bible? And what about other
>>literature?

I've offered Biblical examples showing reasons to doubt BeDuhn's argument
as stated by Robert; let me note some extra-Biblical texts:

The earliest Greek poetry of Homer and Hesiod has a formulaic participial
phrase QEOI AIEN EONTES which might literally be conveyed as "gods existing
forever" but would more normally be Englished as "gods who are forever."
The phrase appears four times in the Odyssey in the accusative case:
	Od 1.263 ... EPEI hRA QEOUS NEMESIZETO AIEN EONTAS ...
	Od 1.378 ... EGW DE QEOUS EPIBWSOMAI AIEN EONTAS
	Od 2.143 ... EGW DE QEOUS EPIBOSOMAI AIEN EONTAS
	Od 8.365 ... hOIA QEOUS EPENHNOQEN AIEN EONTAS

In Hesiod's Theogony we have the genitive participial phrase AIEN EONTWN
3x, once with QEWN:
	Th 801 EINAETES DE QEWN APAMEIRETAI AIEN EONTWN:
once with MAKARWN ("blessed ones" as epithet of the gods)
	Th 33  KAI M' EKELONT hUMNEIN MAKARWN GENOS AIEN EONTWN
and once with AQANATWN ("immortal ones" as epithet of the gods):
	Th 21  ALLWN T' AQANATWN hIERON GENOS AIEN EONTWN.

I would argue then that these oldest Greek epics show a readiness to use
"be forever" as a predicate phrase.

Last of all, there's a fascinating little passage from Callimachus' Hymn to
Zeus which may have been composed close to the time that the LXX was in its
earlier stages of translation in Alexandria--Callimachus was the first
librarian at the MOUSEION in Alexandria.

Callimachus, Hymn 1.6-9:
	ZEU, SE MEN IDAIOISIN EN OURESI FASI GENESQAI,
	ZEU, SE D' EN ARKADIHi; POTEROI, PATER, EYEUSANTO?
	KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI: KAI GAR TAFON, W ANA, SEIO
	KRHTES ETEKTHNANTO: SU D' OU QANES, ESSI GAR AIEI.

I'd English this as: "Some claim, Zeus, that you were born on the hills of
Ida; others claim  (that you were born) in Arcadia. Which of them, Father,
lied? The Cretans are always liars: they even constructed your tomb, Lord;
but you didn't die--you ARE FOREVER!"
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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