[B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
virgil newkirk
virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Sat Jun 12 00:20:36 EDT 2004
George,
Thank for the response.
George, you said: " I would have problems with EPI being translated as "to
do" myself. To be
> fair to the NIV translators, it is, of course, not EPI which is being
> translated as "to do" but EPI in conjunction with ERGOIS.
Firstly, I would comment that I am not wanting this to be an "NIV" issue,
and not that you are making it one either, George. I do think the NIV and
some others went the furthest away from representing the Greek dative
prepositional phrase, EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS, which having both the dative case
and EPI in particular, have the basic and central precept of rest upon;
(according to lexicon and grammar) but went on to English it as an
infinitive of sorts, which gives it a verbalness. Other (virtually all)
translations, that supply unto and for, similarly are indicating motion
towards or to something not yet. This is not EPI + Dative, I would contend.
Moving onto or to or towards something is plainly and basically EIS +
Accusative. Even some sense of this can perhaps be found with EN + Dative.
We don't have that here in Ephesians 2. We should not be looking forward,
but back, to determine what this prepositional phrase is modifying; since it
is EPI + the Dative case which signifies "on" in some sense...contact with.
Again, both EPI and the dative case speak of something establised and
set...not moving on, not still moving or about to be moving around so that
it may or may not "land" on a particular place.
Therefore...as I did a few weeks ago; I reject that notion found in the
translations and am forced back into the text to answer the now present
question of what is around here (in the text) that could be described by
being "EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS" ? Fortunately I had some familiarity with this
interesting word KTISIS which I have previously come to appreciate to
mean...a founding, an establishing (a city for example), an organizing and
putting into place, if you will. Something not very well represented, I
would say, by what we normally think of nowadays when we see this word
"create or created". As I thought this through, realizing that yes, in some
kind of way; not that I have a very complete appreciation or realization of
it; we have been founded or put into place EN CHRISTWi IHSOU. Then, I
realized ! Of course..it's on good works ! Everything that God has done in
Christ. Long list ! It surely has been determined that this all happened
"not" on our works..verse 8&9. Notice..our works are not even referred to as
"good" works.
It is during that search that I noticed the word GAR and begin to realize
that all of what is around here from the beginning of verse 10 has to be
connected to AUTOU then. Of HE Himself; here we have the emphatically
positioned personal pronoun he..in the Genitive case. Again, most of the
translations take this away from the front page headline and make a 'his' a
few pages back. This is not what the Genitive case indicates. This
ESMEN..this; we are now having an existence is not merely a being 'his'..it
is something that is of; is characterized "by" He Himself...that we are a
product; a something that can be (according to Paul)..fairly and accurately
modified by AUTOU. The Greek means we are a product, a work, a production of
something of an AUTOU kind ! There is no way, that can make any sense
without what Paul then supplies, contained in : KTISQENTES EN CHRISTWi IHSOU
and there's no way that could have been accomplished by the One who put us
there unless it was EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. On..or on the basis of something
that can, in reality and all fairness of truthfulness be adverbally
described as-- on Good Works. All of the aforementioned is AUTOU ! The rest
of the verse goes on to point out very specifically that when we consider
"our walk" (not our work)..as far as God, who before prepared these good
works and what they have brought about, as far as He is concerned; we had
better walk (not work) in them. Matters concerning "our" works comes much
later; but first, verse 11 and further, reminds us what we are..or rather
what we were and perhaps carries with it the suggestion of what we might
re-unite with in experience...by being without God and the "work" that He
has done for and on us. A small sample: ...having no hope, being without God
in the world! In view of this, I would recommend us back to the text at
hand.
AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA, KTISQENTES EN CHRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS;
OIS, PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS, hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
Now some are probably going to say at this point; what about works; what
about James ? Well, that is like at the end of the movie "Gladiator" when
Maximus's friend and former fellow slave, heading off to his homeland and
his family, spoke, to the now passed into the great beyond Maximus, said, "
someday I'll see you my friend...but not yet."
Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah
----- Original Message -----
From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
> Virgil,
>
> I would have problems with EPI being translated as "to do" myself. To be
> fair to the NIV translators, it is, of course, not EPI which is being
> translated as "to do" but EPI in conjunction with ERGOIS. Nevertheless I
> prefer to be a bit more faithful to the structure of the original text.
> Would we, as you state, "expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate
> movement towards or into 'works' ?" That is something which needs to be
> checked. I do not favor simply taking statistics from the whole of a
> literature or section of literature and applying them to a particular
> author. It is necessary to see what the author himself does. There is
> debate whether Ephesians was actually a Pauline epistle, but I leave that
> aside. In this case we see
>
> 1 Thess 4.7
>
> OU GAR EKALESEN hHMAS hO QEOS EPI AKAQARSIAi ALL' EN hAGIASMWi
>
> This is particularly interesting since two different prepositions are
> contrasted EPI - EN. "God did not call us FOR uncleanness, but IN
> holiness."
>
> Then notice how the preposition EPI + Dat. is used in Acts 26.6
>
> KAI NUN EP' ELPIDI THS EIS TOUS PATERAS hHMWN EPAGGELIAS GENOMENHS hUPO
> TOU QEOU hESTHKA KRINOMENOS
>
> And now I stand here on trial FOR HOPE in the promise made by God to our
> fathers
>
> As BAGD states, "EP' ELPIDI gives the basis of the trial at law." This
> hope is therefore is the cause of the trial.
>
> Therefore, Virgil, I agree that I would not translate Eph 2.10 as "to do
> good works" though I cannot condemn it as totally wrong since if we are
> "created in Christ FOR good works", this surely intends that we should DO
> good works (indeed, does not the very word ERGON indicate something which
> is done?).
>
> gfsomsel
> ____________
>
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:49:04 -0600 "virgil newkirk"
> <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear George,
> >
> > Bear with me one more time, please.
> >
> > Again, the text:
> >
> > AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS
> > AGAQOIS OIS
> > PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
> >
> >
> > And let me restate again the problem that I an having with EPI
> > being
> > Englished as "to" "unto" or even as is found in the NIV.."to do".
> > This
> > one..., I really have a problem with Greek EPI meaning "to be
> > doing"!
> >
> > Allow me to suggest firstly, that if any of the above be so;
> > wouldn't we
> > expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate movement towards or
> > into
> > "works" ? This would be so easy..would it not ?
> > Or..the infinitive which so clearly indicates purpose--wouldn't we
> > expect
> > that? That would so easily qualify as the basis for what the NIV
> > supplies:
> > founded in Christ Jesus--"to do" good works. Or as other
> > translations
> > suggest--moving onto..unto..for: good works.
> >
> > I suggest that for some reason, "AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA" has been
> > passed by
> > too quickly and as a result, has skewed the understanding and
> > hence, the
> > representation of what the rest of the verse in it's
> > Greek...means.
> > What Paul has so specifically explained, and I would venture we
> > all
> > basically agree on, is that we, by verse 8, find ourselves actually
> > in a
> > state of salvation as is expressed by the perf. pass. ptcpl.
> > SESWiSMENOI.
> > It's now an established fact by the middle of verse 8.
> >
> > I contend that what follows is a further description ( Post
> > SESWiSMENOI )
> > of
> > that salvation and what it can now be described as being. It is
> > Paul's
> > stepping back and away from it so as to gain a broader and more
> > specific
> > look at it. And then he does just that.
> >
> > The last piece of information about it before we get to the purpose
> > of it
> > all; is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Bear with me as I present more of all
> > the
> > context leading up to what I will argue is: the adverbial
> > prepositional
> > phrase EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Back to verse 8c. This salvation has
> > been
> > accessed by or through faith..it is not of ourselves..it is the
> > gift of
> > God.
> > It is not existing as something that is characterized out of
> > works;hINA MH
> > TIS KAUCHSHTAI.
> >
> > GAR..the explanation of what it means that no one may boast.
> >
> > Keep in mind my suggestion this is a further description of
> > something
> > (salvation) already standing. What more is said of it ? AUTOU..as
> > is
> > characterized by what is "of" He Himself (emphatic) ESMEN we are
> > existing
> > as
> > " a work " " a something that has been produced " Now, what can be
> > said
> > about this work..this something that has been made ? We
> > "KTISQENTES" have
> > experienced..received the action of a "founding..a being
> > established".
> > There's some verbalness for sure and if something more is
> > desciptive of
> > that
> > it has to be adverbial... a prepositional phrase functions
> > adverbally
> > almost
> > all the time and what we have that follows are not one, but two
> > prepositional phrases that build upon one another to tell us the
> > "how" of
> > this founding or establishing. It is #1 EN CHRISTWi IHSOU and #2
> > the
> > founding EN CHRISTWi IHSOU..the how of that is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS.
> > Now this
> > can only indicate things that God has done and given. Surely a
> > "founding"
> > in
> > Christ can only somehow be carried out in some real kind of way by
> >
> > God...and
> > if that's so; the good works, that that action is EPI "on" "on the
> > basis
> > of" is also something God has "worked". He is the good one
> > here..not us.
> > ( Paul picks up that thought right away again in verse 11 and
> > expands on
> > it...attempting to keep our focus and attitude in the right
> > perspective.)
> >
> > In verse 10c Paul then supplies (the final purpose clause)...the
> > grounds
> > for
> > something of purpose have now been laid. The purpose: Walk in this
> > established thing that has just been so carefully described. And
> > right away
> > he keeps them close to what that "is not" by what he writes
> > beginning in
> > verse 11: remember that you were Nations in the flesh..etc.
> >
> > The end result is that we have something more than what is in verse
> > 8 to
> > exult in...not boast about ! In verse 8; salvation, grace, faith and
> > gift.
> > By the end of verse 10 we are a Something. Specifically and
> > intimately
> > related to Christ and set into that which we are to walk in. And it
> > was all
> > ..EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS None of which were ours. However, now, that
> > which
> > has been brought about, is our call and responsibility to walk in
> > it. I
> > would say.
> >
> > In conclusion, some thoughts on prepositions and hence,
> > prepositional
> > phrases. If we move the meaning of EPI beyond the concept of rest
> > on..over
> > upon..on...on the basis of..against; then we might as well say it
> > means
> > "purple" too. Just because BDAG says under " #16 " #16 mind you,
> > that it
> > means a marker of object and purpose doesn't necessarily make it so
> > any
> > more
> > than if Wallace says that there is a genitive of ( 33 of them )
> > doesn't
> > make
> > it so. Now it's a given that we need a number of entries to cover
> > the
> > implications of use with the different cases..yes.
> >
> >
> > The "Greek's" prepositions came from physical relations to the
> > world around
> > them...can you picture one of them physically or even
> > metaphysically
> > employing EPI for going unto or to be doing something ? EIS or PROS
> > would,
> > but it doesn't seem to me that EPI can.
> >
> > No, I would say. They had other prepositions that easily and
> > specifically
> > expressed that. Pros..EIS...+accusative
> > They also had at their disposal--specific and efficient ways of
> > expressing
> > purpose by using the infinitive...hPWS and hINA clauses;
> > EPI means something has arrived..it's there ! Consider if you will
> > words
> > that have EPI in compositon--the meaning is represented there too.
> > EPIGINWSKW means after all,you are on it..you are all over it..you
> > have
> > really arrived at knowing; it's no longer theory, it's no longer
> > concept
> > only; you are there, you are on it.
> >
> > Do we really think that the Greeks has 18 (BDAG) of these things in
> > their
> > minds for something so basic that it
> > means..."on".."over".."upon"..against
> > ?
> > Dunbar and Bonar speak of EPI as signifying touching or pressing
> > upon, and
> > hence following upon. With the dative, close upon, depending upon,
> > upon
> > account of. With the accusative..motion directed upon, to ; also,
> > for an
> >
> > Robertson says of EPI: Ground-Meaning. It is "upon" as opposed to
> > hUPO. It
> > differs from hUPER in that EPI implies a real resting upon, not
> > merely
> > over.
> > Robertson goes on to say that the only safety is to hold on to the
> >
> > root-idea
> > and working out from that in each special context.
> >
> > Even Wallace in his syntax summaries says of EPI+ dative:
> > A.Spatial: on, upon, against, at, near.
> > B.Temporal: at, at the time of, during
> > C.Cause: on the basis of
> >
> > Even he doesn't take it any further...definitely not onto
> > expressing
> > purpose.
> >
> > The idea of the dative case is generally rest upon and so the
> > affect of EPI
> > would be to relate to and further give clarification or a
> > further specific development of that idea.
> >
> > If we don't understand something the Greek says that doesn't mean we
> > should
> > stretch it out until it fits something we are able to get our minds
> > and our
> > pre-suppositions around....oh yes, I'm speaking to myself too ! And
> > oh yes,
> > I welcome your challenge and correction.
> >
> > Speaking of prepositions and their phrases; a few more thoughts
> > which I
> > believe also relate to this clause with it's two prepositional
> > phrases..KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Winer says
> > of
> > prepositions: " The power of adverbs and prepositions, however, is
> > confined
> > to the limits of a simple proposition: " The structure, of this,
> > they serve
> > to complete." Prepositions denote only relations ( of
> > substanitives.)
> >
> > I would extrapolate that out to our current consideration by saying
> > EN
> > CHRISTWi IHSOU completes the "something" about or the "how" of the
> > KTISIS.
> > The EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS does the same for KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi
> > IHSOU. Now
> > whatever that indicates is beside the point. The point is that EPI
> > ERGOIS
> > AGAQOIS, I would contend, has to construe with KTISQENTES EN
> > CRISTWi IHSOU;
> > it is adverbial. It tells us something more about the "how,"
> >
> > EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS cannot be separated from what it compliments
> > and
> > describes; which is what precedes it here. EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS is
> > not
> > standing in
> > doing duty of an infinitive or a hINA clause...is it ? Can it ?
> > What
> > precedent would there be for this ? What grammar speaks of this ?
> >
> >
> > Further, it seems to me the more we stretch out these boundaries
> > with more
> > and more categories and sub-categories that we are going farther
> > away from,
> > not getting closer to "thinking" Greekly..I would say. We are taking
> > away
> > the specificity and the sharpness that the Greek is, that in fact
> > prevents
> > ambiguity. I don't believe that ultimately there is ambiguity in the
> > Greek.
> > There have been too many times now that something I would have never
> > thought
> > that I would give up or think differently about has been
> > obliterated..smashed to pieces when confronted by the force that is
> >
> > contained in the clarity that is the Greek.
> >
> >
> >
> > My testimony is that when that the above mentioned has happened;
> > everytime:
> > Christ has become more clear and real to me than ever, hINA I am
> > desparate
> > for more (of what the text really says and means) and hence more
> > desparate
> > to pursue this One I now see more clearly than ever before. And see
> > more
> > clealy my absolute need of connection with my neighbors in the
> > Faith. This,
> > is Christ. This is our inheritance in the saints, in each other.
> > This is our
> > hope. This is our pursuit.
> >
> > Please excuse and allow this last comment even though it does not
> > specifically relate to matters of B-Greek.
> >
> >
> >
> > Virgil Newkirk
> > Salt Lake City, Utah
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> > > To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
> > > Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
> > >
> > >
> > > >> Virgil,
> > > >>
> > > >> There are basically four uses of GAR:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. Cause
> > > >> 2. Inference
> > > >> 3. Continuation
> > > >> 4. Explanation
> > > >>
> > > >> If we back up a bit to 2.4 (you did want context), we find the
> >
> > > >> statement
> > > >> that God has loved us while we were "dead." In 2.7-10 we have
> > a series
> > > >> of two sets of hINA . . . GAR in which the hINA introduces the
> > purpose
> > > >> and GAR the explanation. Thus this salvation if a gift of God
> > (not
> > > >> from
> > > >> works) in order that no one might boast. Thus the GAR in 2.10
> > is used
> > > >> to
> > > >> set forth the explanation of the preceding final clause hINA MH
> > TIS
> > > >> KAUXHSHTAI "that no one might boast." Finally (pun intended),
> > there
> > > >> is
> > > >> another final clause introduced by hINA -- hINA EN AUTOIS
> > PERIPATHSWMEN
> > > >> "that we might walk in them [ERGOIS AGAQOIS]." This final
> > Final Clause
> > > >> tells us which we must choose here: It is purpose, goal or
> > result.
> > > >>
> > > >> gfsomsel
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> >
>
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list