[B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
virgil newkirk
virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Sat Jun 12 02:33:56 EDT 2004
George,
To the rest of your response, which was:
"Would we, as you state, "expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate
> movement towards or into 'works' ?" That is something which needs to be
> checked. I do not favor simply taking statistics from the whole of a
> literature or section of literature and applying them to a particular
> author. It is necessary to see what the author himself does. There is
> debate whether Ephesians was actually a Pauline epistle, but I leave that
> aside.
George, here is one example from Paul's other writings that if EPI+ Dative
could mean (and I contend that it does not) ..."for" something and that
"something involves verbalness, not staticness; here is a place we could
perhaps expect it, but,in fact find EIS + Accusative.
Romans 3:25b: hILASTHDRION DIA THS PSITEWS EN TWi AUTOU hAIMATI EIS ENDEIXI
THS DKAIOSUNHS AUTOU
The Englised line from Romans 3:25B. KJV: which I would say is fairly
representative of the translations in regards to this line. KJV says, " a
propitiation through faith in His blood, "to declare" his righteousness....
Isn't the idea clearly present here that having mentioned this propitiation
through faith in his blood it sets the the grounds for the purpose of a
declaration of his righteousness ? That is; we could say, "a propitiation
through faith in His blood, "for" a declaring of the righteousness of Him."
No ! We don't find any such thing. We see Paul thinking differently here
about something and it involves moving past a point of reference; needing,
in fact EIS+ Accusative. A propitiation through faith in His blood...EIS+
Acc moves us into a declaring of the righteousness of Him. In Eph 2:10 our
being established in Christ doesn't (at this point yet) move us on to works;
if it did (that would necessitate EIS ERGON AGAQON) no, our being
established "in Christ Jesus" starts and stops (the establishing) EPI ERGOIS
"AGAQOIS"...
Another example of EPI+Dative not working or being used by Paul to indicate
something being "for" something and that being represented in his Greek by
EPI+ Dative.
In this case we see in 2Tim 2:14 MH LOGOMACEIN EIS OUDEN CRHSIMON EPI
KATASTROQHI TWN AKOUONTWN.
This is a really good example I think. Surely we could say that what is
meant here is "not wordfighting which ends up being "for nothing
valuable"...could that really be indicated by EPI+Dative ? No, for Paul to
indicate that wordfighting "goes on" to or has as it's purpose of, or
results in "nothing valuable"...for that going onto, unto, to do "nothing
valuable", Paul uses EIS+Accusative to express that going onto "nothing
valuable". But look there at the ending to his advice. He says in fact that
this wordfighting that moves one into (EIS+Acc) nothing valuable; something
else here though can be descriptive adverbally as relates to this "to be
wordfighting" in an EPI + Dative case prepositional phrase EPI KATASTROQHi
TWN AKPOUONTWN ! The something going onto something is accusative but "to be
wordfighting" has, prior to this (according to Paul) been established to be;
EPI..standing on..based on..in close contact to Destruction of it's hearers.
Wordfighting's homeground is destruction, so don't go there and end up EIS +
Acc.
George, you cite:
>
> 1 Thess 4.7
>
> OU GAR EKALESEN hHMAS hO QEOS EPI AKAQARSIAi ALL' EN hAGIASMWi
We'd better believe that He hasn't, although that is not what Paul states; I
would say. As I suggested elsewhere...the whole concept that God would call
us "for" uncleaness...well, that's absurd, it seems to me. It makes much
more sense (understanding EPI+Dative to be indicating something at rest and
or resting on...as it does), it makes more sense to understand the Greek
here to be indicating Paul making something very clear, affirming something
that no doubt must be somewhere prominent in the minds of the Thessolonians
(Paul's use of MH in verse 6 is his assuming or not expecting any brother
defrauding) Paul states emphatically, " God has not called you " EPI
AKAQARSIA " that is to say; God's having called you could not be described
adverbally with "on the basis of" nor is his calling or has it ever been by,
for, or in any kind of way touching or being in contact with uncleaness ! So
don't think if you are despising anyone, that you're not despising God too !
George you pointed out:
>
> This is particularly interesting since two different prepositions are
> contrasted EPI - EN. "God did not call us FOR uncleanness, but IN
> holiness."
Yes, interesting indeed. Here is movement represented by the dative case,
but, in co-operation with a different preposition that can allow for
movement, instrumentality, environment. God did not call us "on" the basis
of or by being in touch with uncleaness, but; by, with, and moving around
with us in the environment of hAGIASMWi while exposing us to it and the
influence that it cannot help but affect on us...Yes, George. Interesting
indeed. And look...
There's no MH in the next verse ! But as touching brotherly love you need
not that I write to you, GAR you yourselves are taught of God to love one
another.
George, you then mentioned ..
> Then notice how the preposition EPI + Dat. is used in Acts 26.6
>
> KAI NUN EP' ELPIDI THS EIS TOUS PATERAS hHMWN EPAGGELIAS GENOMENHS hUPO
> TOU QEOU hESTHKA KRINOMENOS
>
> And now I stand here on trial FOR HOPE in the promise made by God to our
> fathers
> As BAGD states, "EP' ELPIDI gives the basis of the trial at law." This
> hope is therefore is the cause of the trial.
>
George, perhaps there is an alternative understanding of this situation.
According to verse one the basis of the "trial" is the Jews accusations.
Paul though, knowing very well King Agrippa to be specifically aware of
everything Jewish, and knowing that it may pry open the King a little bit in
his favor to state the truth that has some information in it that the King
may affirm says, " And now I am standing, and am being judged "EPI ELPIDI".
King...I,m here being judged "on the basis of" that hope that I know you
know about. That's what my being judged is "based on" The Hope. Come on
King...and then Paul went on and offered his best to the King to try to
..well you know how the rest went. Hmmm; almost got him ! Almost...
EPI ELPIDI...The Greek here by using EPI+Dative means Paul was not there
"for" hope....he was, already prior to arriving, having it --- on and all
over hope, was he, and when they got him there Paul wanted to make sure the
King knew...I'm being dealt with in this manner because I will not let go of
what I am on....therefore it's important for you to know, that that hope
that I know you are perfectly familiar with....I am on it and my being
judged is based on it !
> Therefore, Virgil, I agree that I would not translate Eph 2.10 as "to do
> good works" though I cannot condemn it as totally wrong since if we are
> "created in Christ FOR good works", this surely intends that we should DO
> good works (indeed, does not the very word ERGON indicate something which
> is done?).
George,
I would argue that it is wrong and wrong in it's implications too, of
course. On the contrary, there is something here that speaks wonderful
concerning our standing and relation to God and Christ Jesus. Important and
complete information. A description provided by Paul's insight that is vital
to our understanding and perspective of matters involving our aforementioned
God and Christ Jesus. Good works on our part though ? Something to be
done... As we're in touch with what Paul wrote about and in touch with what
he was EPI....well
Thanks, George.
Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah
----- Original Message -----
From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
> Virgil,
>
> I would have problems with EPI being translated as "to do" myself. To be
> fair to the NIV translators, it is, of course, not EPI which is being
> translated as "to do" but EPI in conjunction with ERGOIS. Nevertheless I
> prefer to be a bit more faithful to the structure of the original text.
> Would we, as you state, "expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate
> movement towards or into 'works' ?" That is something which needs to be
> checked. I do not favor simply taking statistics from the whole of a
> literature or section of literature and applying them to a particular
> author. It is necessary to see what the author himself does. There is
> debate whether Ephesians was actually a Pauline epistle, but I leave that
> aside. In this case we see
>
> 1 Thess 4.7
>
> OU GAR EKALESEN hHMAS hO QEOS EPI AKAQARSIAi ALL' EN hAGIASMWi
>
> This is particularly interesting since two different prepositions are
> contrasted EPI - EN. "God did not call us FOR uncleanness, but IN
> holiness."
>
> Then notice how the preposition EPI + Dat. is used in Acts 26.6
>
> KAI NUN EP' ELPIDI THS EIS TOUS PATERAS hHMWN EPAGGELIAS GENOMENHS hUPO
> TOU QEOU hESTHKA KRINOMENOS
>
> And now I stand here on trial FOR HOPE in the promise made by God to our
> fathers
>
> As BAGD states, "EP' ELPIDI gives the basis of the trial at law." This
> hope is therefore is the cause of the trial.
>
> Therefore, Virgil, I agree that I would not translate Eph 2.10 as "to do
> good works" though I cannot condemn it as totally wrong since if we are
> "created in Christ FOR good works", this surely intends that we should DO
> good works (indeed, does not the very word ERGON indicate something which
> is done?).
>
> gfsomsel
> ____________
>
> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:49:04 -0600 "virgil newkirk"
> <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear George,
> >
> > Bear with me one more time, please.
> >
> > Again, the text:
> >
> > AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS
> > AGAQOIS OIS
> > PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
> >
> >
> > And let me restate again the problem that I an having with EPI
> > being
> > Englished as "to" "unto" or even as is found in the NIV.."to do".
> > This
> > one..., I really have a problem with Greek EPI meaning "to be
> > doing"!
> >
> > Allow me to suggest firstly, that if any of the above be so;
> > wouldn't we
> > expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate movement towards or
> > into
> > "works" ? This would be so easy..would it not ?
> > Or..the infinitive which so clearly indicates purpose--wouldn't we
> > expect
> > that? That would so easily qualify as the basis for what the NIV
> > supplies:
> > founded in Christ Jesus--"to do" good works. Or as other
> > translations
> > suggest--moving onto..unto..for: good works.
> >
> > I suggest that for some reason, "AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA" has been
> > passed by
> > too quickly and as a result, has skewed the understanding and
> > hence, the
> > representation of what the rest of the verse in it's
> > Greek...means.
> > What Paul has so specifically explained, and I would venture we
> > all
> > basically agree on, is that we, by verse 8, find ourselves actually
> > in a
> > state of salvation as is expressed by the perf. pass. ptcpl.
> > SESWiSMENOI.
> > It's now an established fact by the middle of verse 8.
> >
> > I contend that what follows is a further description ( Post
> > SESWiSMENOI )
> > of
> > that salvation and what it can now be described as being. It is
> > Paul's
> > stepping back and away from it so as to gain a broader and more
> > specific
> > look at it. And then he does just that.
> >
> > The last piece of information about it before we get to the purpose
> > of it
> > all; is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Bear with me as I present more of all
> > the
> > context leading up to what I will argue is: the adverbial
> > prepositional
> > phrase EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Back to verse 8c. This salvation has
> > been
> > accessed by or through faith..it is not of ourselves..it is the
> > gift of
> > God.
> > It is not existing as something that is characterized out of
> > works;hINA MH
> > TIS KAUCHSHTAI.
> >
> > GAR..the explanation of what it means that no one may boast.
> >
> > Keep in mind my suggestion this is a further description of
> > something
> > (salvation) already standing. What more is said of it ? AUTOU..as
> > is
> > characterized by what is "of" He Himself (emphatic) ESMEN we are
> > existing
> > as
> > " a work " " a something that has been produced " Now, what can be
> > said
> > about this work..this something that has been made ? We
> > "KTISQENTES" have
> > experienced..received the action of a "founding..a being
> > established".
> > There's some verbalness for sure and if something more is
> > desciptive of
> > that
> > it has to be adverbial... a prepositional phrase functions
> > adverbally
> > almost
> > all the time and what we have that follows are not one, but two
> > prepositional phrases that build upon one another to tell us the
> > "how" of
> > this founding or establishing. It is #1 EN CHRISTWi IHSOU and #2
> > the
> > founding EN CHRISTWi IHSOU..the how of that is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS.
> > Now this
> > can only indicate things that God has done and given. Surely a
> > "founding"
> > in
> > Christ can only somehow be carried out in some real kind of way by
> >
> > God...and
> > if that's so; the good works, that that action is EPI "on" "on the
> > basis
> > of" is also something God has "worked". He is the good one
> > here..not us.
> > ( Paul picks up that thought right away again in verse 11 and
> > expands on
> > it...attempting to keep our focus and attitude in the right
> > perspective.)
> >
> > In verse 10c Paul then supplies (the final purpose clause)...the
> > grounds
> > for
> > something of purpose have now been laid. The purpose: Walk in this
> > established thing that has just been so carefully described. And
> > right away
> > he keeps them close to what that "is not" by what he writes
> > beginning in
> > verse 11: remember that you were Nations in the flesh..etc.
> >
> > The end result is that we have something more than what is in verse
> > 8 to
> > exult in...not boast about ! In verse 8; salvation, grace, faith and
> > gift.
> > By the end of verse 10 we are a Something. Specifically and
> > intimately
> > related to Christ and set into that which we are to walk in. And it
> > was all
> > ..EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS None of which were ours. However, now, that
> > which
> > has been brought about, is our call and responsibility to walk in
> > it. I
> > would say.
> >
> > In conclusion, some thoughts on prepositions and hence,
> > prepositional
> > phrases. If we move the meaning of EPI beyond the concept of rest
> > on..over
> > upon..on...on the basis of..against; then we might as well say it
> > means
> > "purple" too. Just because BDAG says under " #16 " #16 mind you,
> > that it
> > means a marker of object and purpose doesn't necessarily make it so
> > any
> > more
> > than if Wallace says that there is a genitive of ( 33 of them )
> > doesn't
> > make
> > it so. Now it's a given that we need a number of entries to cover
> > the
> > implications of use with the different cases..yes.
> >
> >
> > The "Greek's" prepositions came from physical relations to the
> > world around
> > them...can you picture one of them physically or even
> > metaphysically
> > employing EPI for going unto or to be doing something ? EIS or PROS
> > would,
> > but it doesn't seem to me that EPI can.
> >
> > No, I would say. They had other prepositions that easily and
> > specifically
> > expressed that. Pros..EIS...+accusative
> > They also had at their disposal--specific and efficient ways of
> > expressing
> > purpose by using the infinitive...hPWS and hINA clauses;
> > EPI means something has arrived..it's there ! Consider if you will
> > words
> > that have EPI in compositon--the meaning is represented there too.
> > EPIGINWSKW means after all,you are on it..you are all over it..you
> > have
> > really arrived at knowing; it's no longer theory, it's no longer
> > concept
> > only; you are there, you are on it.
> >
> > Do we really think that the Greeks has 18 (BDAG) of these things in
> > their
> > minds for something so basic that it
> > means..."on".."over".."upon"..against
> > ?
> > Dunbar and Bonar speak of EPI as signifying touching or pressing
> > upon, and
> > hence following upon. With the dative, close upon, depending upon,
> > upon
> > account of. With the accusative..motion directed upon, to ; also,
> > for an
> >
> > Robertson says of EPI: Ground-Meaning. It is "upon" as opposed to
> > hUPO. It
> > differs from hUPER in that EPI implies a real resting upon, not
> > merely
> > over.
> > Robertson goes on to say that the only safety is to hold on to the
> >
> > root-idea
> > and working out from that in each special context.
> >
> > Even Wallace in his syntax summaries says of EPI+ dative:
> > A.Spatial: on, upon, against, at, near.
> > B.Temporal: at, at the time of, during
> > C.Cause: on the basis of
> >
> > Even he doesn't take it any further...definitely not onto
> > expressing
> > purpose.
> >
> > The idea of the dative case is generally rest upon and so the
> > affect of EPI
> > would be to relate to and further give clarification or a
> > further specific development of that idea.
> >
> > If we don't understand something the Greek says that doesn't mean we
> > should
> > stretch it out until it fits something we are able to get our minds
> > and our
> > pre-suppositions around....oh yes, I'm speaking to myself too ! And
> > oh yes,
> > I welcome your challenge and correction.
> >
> > Speaking of prepositions and their phrases; a few more thoughts
> > which I
> > believe also relate to this clause with it's two prepositional
> > phrases..KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Winer says
> > of
> > prepositions: " The power of adverbs and prepositions, however, is
> > confined
> > to the limits of a simple proposition: " The structure, of this,
> > they serve
> > to complete." Prepositions denote only relations ( of
> > substanitives.)
> >
> > I would extrapolate that out to our current consideration by saying
> > EN
> > CHRISTWi IHSOU completes the "something" about or the "how" of the
> > KTISIS.
> > The EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS does the same for KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi
> > IHSOU. Now
> > whatever that indicates is beside the point. The point is that EPI
> > ERGOIS
> > AGAQOIS, I would contend, has to construe with KTISQENTES EN
> > CRISTWi IHSOU;
> > it is adverbial. It tells us something more about the "how,"
> >
> > EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS cannot be separated from what it compliments
> > and
> > describes; which is what precedes it here. EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS is
> > not
> > standing in
> > doing duty of an infinitive or a hINA clause...is it ? Can it ?
> > What
> > precedent would there be for this ? What grammar speaks of this ?
> >
> >
> > Further, it seems to me the more we stretch out these boundaries
> > with more
> > and more categories and sub-categories that we are going farther
> > away from,
> > not getting closer to "thinking" Greekly..I would say. We are taking
> > away
> > the specificity and the sharpness that the Greek is, that in fact
> > prevents
> > ambiguity. I don't believe that ultimately there is ambiguity in the
> > Greek.
> > There have been too many times now that something I would have never
> > thought
> > that I would give up or think differently about has been
> > obliterated..smashed to pieces when confronted by the force that is
> >
> > contained in the clarity that is the Greek.
> >
> >
> >
> > My testimony is that when that the above mentioned has happened;
> > everytime:
> > Christ has become more clear and real to me than ever, hINA I am
> > desparate
> > for more (of what the text really says and means) and hence more
> > desparate
> > to pursue this One I now see more clearly than ever before. And see
> > more
> > clealy my absolute need of connection with my neighbors in the
> > Faith. This,
> > is Christ. This is our inheritance in the saints, in each other.
> > This is our
> > hope. This is our pursuit.
> >
> > Please excuse and allow this last comment even though it does not
> > specifically relate to matters of B-Greek.
> >
> >
> >
> > Virgil Newkirk
> > Salt Lake City, Utah
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> > > To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
> > > Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
> > >
> > >
> > > >> Virgil,
> > > >>
> > > >> There are basically four uses of GAR:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. Cause
> > > >> 2. Inference
> > > >> 3. Continuation
> > > >> 4. Explanation
> > > >>
> > > >> If we back up a bit to 2.4 (you did want context), we find the
> >
> > > >> statement
> > > >> that God has loved us while we were "dead." In 2.7-10 we have
> > a series
> > > >> of two sets of hINA . . . GAR in which the hINA introduces the
> > purpose
> > > >> and GAR the explanation. Thus this salvation if a gift of God
> > (not
> > > >> from
> > > >> works) in order that no one might boast. Thus the GAR in 2.10
> > is used
> > > >> to
> > > >> set forth the explanation of the preceding final clause hINA MH
> > TIS
> > > >> KAUXHSHTAI "that no one might boast." Finally (pun intended),
> > there
> > > >> is
> > > >> another final clause introduced by hINA -- hINA EN AUTOIS
> > PERIPATHSWMEN
> > > >> "that we might walk in them [ERGOIS AGAQOIS]." This final
> > Final Clause
> > > >> tells us which we must choose here: It is purpose, goal or
> > result.
> > > >>
> > > >> gfsomsel
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> >
>
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