[B-Greek] Rom 1,17 prep phrase

Arie Dirkzwager dirkzwager at pandora.be
Sun Jun 13 11:09:31 EDT 2004


Harold,

I think with professor Conrad that we have to keep the discussion away from
doctrine here.
I only would like to add, that sometimes the meaning of PAS can be less
universal than it sounds. There are instances where you should translate
"all (people) concerned".

In Rom 3: 22  we find that DIKAIOSUNE QEOU is for PANTAS TOUS PISTEUONTAS.
Then we read in the following verse that PANTES sinned and therefore do not
get God's glory. PANTES there *seems* to be universal. But in verse 24 those
PANTES are said to be justified through Christ.
Paul did not forget when he wrote verse 23 and 24 that he made justification
depending on believe in verse 22. So PANTES in verse 23 and 24 are not all
human beings, but all concerned, i.e. PANTES hOI PISTEUONTES. Paul only did
not like to express hOI PISTEUONTES again. People who do not believe are not
discussed here.
The same can be valid in 1 Cor 15.

If you can read Dutch - I wrote an article about some texts where "all" is
not meant universally: "Allen of niet allen - dat is de kwestie" (All or not
all - that's the question),
http://www.studiebijbel.nl/Theologie/Allen%20of%20niet%20allen.htm
I repeat what I wrote before: if you know English and German and have some
feeling for languages, reading Dutch is not difficult.

Arie


Dr. A. Dirkzwager
Hoeselt, Belgium
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Aan: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard at ont.com>
CC: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Verzonden: zondag 13 juni 2004 15:09
Onderwerp: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 1,17 prep phrase


> At 7:54 AM -0500 6/13/04, Harold R. Holmyard III wrote:
> >Dear list,
> >
> >I am in controversy with a universalist, and we are discussing I Cor
> >15:22, where one has:
> >
> >1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made
alive.
> >
> >He think that in context this verse implies that everyone will be
> >resurrected to glory. I pointed out that the proper nouns Adam and
> >Christ are preceded by definite articles, but proper nouns usually
> >usually lack the article. The definite articles before Adam and
> >Christ in Greek suggest that these could be something other than
> >strictly proper names. Rather, they might function conceptually to
> >represent spheres or collectives. This is the first mention of Adam
> >in the context, so it cannot be the definite article of previous
> >reference.
> >
> >Does this suggestion have merit? Am I overlooking something? Thanks.
>
> (1) It would help if you'd cite the Greek text rather than cite a
> translation and then talk about the Greek text.
> (2) If the question is to be posed seriously, it ought to be dislodged
from
> an apologetic context--the attempt to prove or disprove a doctrinal
> stance--and asked in its own right strictly in terms of grammar and
> immediate context.
> --
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>




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