[B-Greek] simple test *AURION HLQON

Rolf Furuli furuli at online.no
Tue Dec 13 02:07:50 EST 2005


Dear Don,

See my comments below.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Donald Vance 
  To: Rolf Furuli 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 1:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] simple test *AURION HLQON


  Rolf,
  Before I comment, I need to understand what you are saying. Since this B-Greek, I'll focus on Jude 1:14. 

  ???ef?te?se? d? ?a? t??t??? ?ßd?µ?? ?p? ?d?µ ???? ?????· ?d?? ???e? ?????? ?? ???a?? µ????s?? a?t??
  PROEFHTEUSEN DE KAI TOUTOIS hEBDOMOS APO ADAM hENWX LEGWN. IDOU HLQEN KURIOS EN hAGIAIS MURIASIN AUTOU

  You understand this to be S<E=R? The speech is occurring before the event which is depicted as yet to occur? Yet the verb is in the aorist. Have I understood you correctly?

  RF:
  Yes.

  A la Max Rogland, could this not be better understood as E<S<R? The aorist is used because the revelation (dream, oracle, vision, whatever) has already occurred but the event described has yet to occur. The key is understanding the event of the E is the vision (drema, or whatever) and not the actual coming which is yet to occur.

  RF:
  I think Rogland´s approch is problemtic because it can prevent linguistic progress. One has made up his mind what aorist means. Then, when counter-examples occur, one uses all kinds of ad hoc explanations to save the theory. In Hebrew studies, in the last part of the 19th century, it was believed that perfect represeted completed actions. When it was realized that hundreds of perfects occur with future reference, the prophetic-perfect view ws invented: The action was completed in the mind of the prophet. No proof has ever been given for this, and there are clear evidence against it.  We should not follow the same line in connection with Greek aorist and the other "tenses". When the map does not fit the terrain, we should change the map.

   It is commonly believed that Jude 1:14 is a quote from the Ethiopic Enoch 1:9. The Ethiopic manuscripts and the Greek fragments of Enoch are not older than manuscripts of Jude, and the Aramaic Dead Sea Scroll fragments of Enoch are frgmentary and tell us little regrding the text of 1:9. We therefore cannot know who quoted who. But there is one interesting factor related to our discussion, namely, that the future "coming of God" in Enoch 1:9 is expressed by Ethiopic perfect, which is perfective. This is not the common way of expressing Ethiopic future, so when perfect is used, it may express emphasis, "this will certainly happen".  Greek manuscripts of Enoch 1:9 have aorist in this verse.

  It may be that the author of Enoch 1:9 and Jude 1:14 both quoted the same Hebrew or Aramaic source where the future coming of God was expressed by a perfective verb. However, Jude´s use of the Greek "tenses" had to make sense for him and for his audience. So I draw the conclusion that Greek aorist does not only portray completed actions, but can express uncompleted ones as well. Thus, there is a need for a  reinterpretation of the Greek aspects.


  Don Vance
  donaldrvance at mac.com
  On Dec 12, 2005, at 5:21 PM, Rolf Furuli wrote:


  Best regards,

  Rolf

  Rolf Furuli
  University of Oslo


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