[B-Greek] Fw: John 3:31-32... aspect analysis

Richard Lindeman oblchurch at msn.com
Thu Dec 15 07:59:32 EST 2005


Carl... thanks for this insight!

I was about to suggest that time R for this entire passage of John 3:31-32 
is the "Coming of Christ" and that all of the other verbs throughout take 
their aspect from it.  But now I can see what you are saying.

So then,  I would see two R times in this passage. And the aspect of some 
verbs in this section are intersecting with the "Coming of the heavenly one" 
while the aspect of the other verbs are intersecting with "the one being of 
this earth".

Let me try this again:

ESTI in  both cases of verse 31 have no particular aspect emphasis.  They 
are simply emphatic. They seem to communicate a present tense more than 
aspect.

LALEI intersects with Time R = WN imperfectively  "always speaks while being 
on earth"

EPANW PANTWN ESTI... here ESTI intersects with Time R=ERCOMENOS 
imperfectively "always is over all things while coming from above"

hEWRAKE KAI HKOUSE intersects with Time R=ERCOMENOS perfectively. "all that 
he saw", "all that he heard" ???

MARTUREI intersects with Time R=ERCOMENOS imperfectively "aways bears 
witness while coming from above"

OUDEIS  LAMBANEI.intersects with Time R = WN imperfectively  "never receives 
while being on earth"

In working with the aspects I feel like I am playing a game of hide and 
seek.  Am I getting warmer?

Rich Lindeman



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:31-32... aspect analysis


> One problem here is that you're confounding theological questions  with 
> grammatical questions. Let's just forget about doctrines of when  "Christ 
> comes" and focus on the meaning of the present (imperfective)  participle 
> ERCOMENOS. The sense is "the one coming" or "the one who  comes"; I rather 
> suspect that hO ERCOMENOS here derives from the  phrasing of Psalm 117:26 
> which is cited in the synoptic Entry-into- Jerusalem pericope: EULOGHMENOS 
> hO ERCOMENOS EN ONOMATI KURIOU  (Mowinckel's classic study "He That 
> Cometh"). The antithesis in this  Johannine passage may be implying 
> certain things about Jesus and  others but it is setting forth a 
> characteristic distinction between  the one of heavenly origin (hO ANWQEN 
> ERCOMENOS)  and what he attests  and the earthling (hO WN EK THS GHS) and 
> what he asserts. This  distinction is a generalization and BOTH 
> participles are present:  ERCOMENOS, WN.
>
> On Dec 14, 2005, at 9:37 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>
>> OK. I am attempting to digest some of the recent debates concerning 
>> aspect
>> theory. Based on the conversations I have overheard, let me make a  fresh
>> attempt at some of the passage I chose to wrestle with. I will  attempt 
>> it in
>> smaller segments:
>>
>> hO ANOQEN ERXOMENOS EPANW PANTWN ESTIN, hO WN EK THS GHS EK THS GHS 
>> ESTI,
>> KAI EK THS GHS LALEI,  hO EK TOU OURANOU ERXOMENOS EPANW PANTWN  ESTI KAI 
>> hO
>> hEWRAKE KAI HKOUSE TOUTO MARTUREI KAI THN MARTURIAN AUTOU OUDEIS 
>> LAMBANEI.
>> John 3:31-32
>>
>> My initial rough translation: "The one who came from above is over  all, 
>> the
>> one that is from this earth is of this earth and speaks concerning  this
>> earth, the one who came from heaven is above all things and  testifies 
>> what
>> he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony."
>>
>> New aspect analysis.  hO ANOQEN ERXOMENOS EPANW PANTWN ESTIN
>> ERXOMENOS -  E<S, R=E, R<S , imperfective, some of Christ's coming 
>> occurs at
>> R time. or, Christ's coming is not completed at R time.  New aspectual
>> question: is this a reference to the incomplete nature of the first 
>> coming
>> of Christ and a hint of the second coming of Christ?
>>
>> ESTIN - E=S, R<S, E>R,  imperfective,  some of Christ's being over all
>> occurs at R time. or, Christ's being over all is not completed at R 
>> time.
>> New aspectual observation:  Christ is over all things now and always.
>>
>> Is this better?
>>
>> Rich Lindeman
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> 




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