[B-Greek] Fw: John 3:31-32... aspect analysis
Richard Lindeman
oblchurch at msn.com
Thu Dec 15 07:59:32 EST 2005
Carl... thanks for this insight!
I was about to suggest that time R for this entire passage of John 3:31-32
is the "Coming of Christ" and that all of the other verbs throughout take
their aspect from it. But now I can see what you are saying.
So then, I would see two R times in this passage. And the aspect of some
verbs in this section are intersecting with the "Coming of the heavenly one"
while the aspect of the other verbs are intersecting with "the one being of
this earth".
Let me try this again:
ESTI in both cases of verse 31 have no particular aspect emphasis. They
are simply emphatic. They seem to communicate a present tense more than
aspect.
LALEI intersects with Time R = WN imperfectively "always speaks while being
on earth"
EPANW PANTWN ESTI... here ESTI intersects with Time R=ERCOMENOS
imperfectively "always is over all things while coming from above"
hEWRAKE KAI HKOUSE intersects with Time R=ERCOMENOS perfectively. "all that
he saw", "all that he heard" ???
MARTUREI intersects with Time R=ERCOMENOS imperfectively "aways bears
witness while coming from above"
OUDEIS LAMBANEI.intersects with Time R = WN imperfectively "never receives
while being on earth"
In working with the aspects I feel like I am playing a game of hide and
seek. Am I getting warmer?
Rich Lindeman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
To: "Richard Lindeman" <oblchurch at msn.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:31-32... aspect analysis
> One problem here is that you're confounding theological questions with
> grammatical questions. Let's just forget about doctrines of when "Christ
> comes" and focus on the meaning of the present (imperfective) participle
> ERCOMENOS. The sense is "the one coming" or "the one who comes"; I rather
> suspect that hO ERCOMENOS here derives from the phrasing of Psalm 117:26
> which is cited in the synoptic Entry-into- Jerusalem pericope: EULOGHMENOS
> hO ERCOMENOS EN ONOMATI KURIOU (Mowinckel's classic study "He That
> Cometh"). The antithesis in this Johannine passage may be implying
> certain things about Jesus and others but it is setting forth a
> characteristic distinction between the one of heavenly origin (hO ANWQEN
> ERCOMENOS) and what he attests and the earthling (hO WN EK THS GHS) and
> what he asserts. This distinction is a generalization and BOTH
> participles are present: ERCOMENOS, WN.
>
> On Dec 14, 2005, at 9:37 PM, Richard Lindeman wrote:
>
>> OK. I am attempting to digest some of the recent debates concerning
>> aspect
>> theory. Based on the conversations I have overheard, let me make a fresh
>> attempt at some of the passage I chose to wrestle with. I will attempt
>> it in
>> smaller segments:
>>
>> hO ANOQEN ERXOMENOS EPANW PANTWN ESTIN, hO WN EK THS GHS EK THS GHS
>> ESTI,
>> KAI EK THS GHS LALEI, hO EK TOU OURANOU ERXOMENOS EPANW PANTWN ESTI KAI
>> hO
>> hEWRAKE KAI HKOUSE TOUTO MARTUREI KAI THN MARTURIAN AUTOU OUDEIS
>> LAMBANEI.
>> John 3:31-32
>>
>> My initial rough translation: "The one who came from above is over all,
>> the
>> one that is from this earth is of this earth and speaks concerning this
>> earth, the one who came from heaven is above all things and testifies
>> what
>> he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony."
>>
>> New aspect analysis. hO ANOQEN ERXOMENOS EPANW PANTWN ESTIN
>> ERXOMENOS - E<S, R=E, R<S , imperfective, some of Christ's coming
>> occurs at
>> R time. or, Christ's coming is not completed at R time. New aspectual
>> question: is this a reference to the incomplete nature of the first
>> coming
>> of Christ and a hint of the second coming of Christ?
>>
>> ESTIN - E=S, R<S, E>R, imperfective, some of Christ's being over all
>> occurs at R time. or, Christ's being over all is not completed at R
>> time.
>> New aspectual observation: Christ is over all things now and always.
>>
>> Is this better?
>>
>> Rich Lindeman
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
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