[B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???

William Zeitler william at faithfulbible.com
Wed Feb 2 06:05:27 EST 2005


>Thus, the NIV rendering "Before Abraham
was born, I am" simply is ungrammatical!  The only way to defend such a
rendering in my view is to say that here we have an expression that
transcends human understanding, so we must use an ungrammatical
expression to catch it.

Is 'ungrammatical' always 'bad'? Even examplars of English writing have been
known to use 'incorrect' grammar deliberately on occasion -- for force and
clarity. (Try Googling for '<favorite author> ungrammatical').

Solecisms in English -- when they are useful -- need to be clear, and they
need to be deliberate (blunders don't count!). But solecisms do have a place
in good English writing -- and translating, methinks.

william zeitler

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Rolf Furuli
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:27 AM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???


Dear Richard,

In order to review translation alternatives it is much better to
*describe* the syntactical and contextual situations than to tie the
case to technical terms, such as PPA.  One person (expressed by "I")
existed before a point of time in the past (PRIN ABRAAAM), and because
he (Jesus) is the one uttering the words, he still exists at the deictic
center (speech time).  Because EIMI does not have a perfect, this is in
Greek expressed by the present of EIMI.  What is described is a state,
and this states has lasted from before a certain point in the past and
still lasts at present (the deictic center).  John 9:9 is a completely
different situation.

The problem with English as a target laguage is that neiter simple
present nor the the imperfective aspect (the present participle) can
express the mentioned situation (a state existing before a poit in the
past and is still existing).  Thus, the NIV rendering "Before Abraham
was born, I am" simply is ungrammatical!  The only way to defend such a
rendering in my view is to say that here we have an expression that
transcends human understanding, so we must use an ungrammatical
expression to catch it.  But the problem with this is that we do not let
language an grammar be the basis of our theology, but we let our
theology in a way set language and grammar aside.  McKay's rendering "I
have been in existence since before Abraham was born" is both
grammatical and accounts perfectly for the syntax and the context.  We
need not connect this translation with a technical term to realize that.

Best regards

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo

MAKARIOIOIPRAEIS at aol.com wrote:

<snip>





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