[B-Greek] FOCUS re: John 8:58 PPA???

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Feb 2 06:21:50 EST 2005


If this thread is to go forward, please let's keep it focused on
understanding of the Greek grammatical construction in John 8:58 rather
than upon such secondary issues as how best to translate it into English or
another target language and what constitutes good English writing. The
discussion has certainly been civil, despite skirting the potential peril
of sectarian interpretation of the text in question, but discussion of this
particular Biblical Greek text always seems to have the potential of
shifting focus to issues that lie outside the proper scope of B-Greek
discussion.

At 3:05 AM -0800 2/2/05, William Zeitler wrote:
>>Thus, the NIV rendering "Before Abraham
>was born, I am" simply is ungrammatical!  The only way to defend such a
>rendering in my view is to say that here we have an expression that
>transcends human understanding, so we must use an ungrammatical
>expression to catch it.
>
>Is 'ungrammatical' always 'bad'? Even examplars of English writing have been
>known to use 'incorrect' grammar deliberately on occasion -- for force and
>clarity. (Try Googling for '<favorite author> ungrammatical').
>
>Solecisms in English -- when they are useful -- need to be clear, and they
>need to be deliberate (blunders don't count!). But solecisms do have a place
>in good English writing -- and translating, methinks.
>
>william zeitler
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Rolf Furuli
>Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:27 AM
>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???
>
>
>Dear Richard,
>
>In order to review translation alternatives it is much better to
>*describe* the syntactical and contextual situations than to tie the
>case to technical terms, such as PPA.  One person (expressed by "I")
>existed before a point of time in the past (PRIN ABRAAAM), and because
>he (Jesus) is the one uttering the words, he still exists at the deictic
>center (speech time).  Because EIMI does not have a perfect, this is in
>Greek expressed by the present of EIMI.  What is described is a state,
>and this states has lasted from before a certain point in the past and
>still lasts at present (the deictic center).  John 9:9 is a completely
>different situation.
>
>The problem with English as a target laguage is that neiter simple
>present nor the the imperfective aspect (the present participle) can
>express the mentioned situation (a state existing before a poit in the
>past and is still existing).  Thus, the NIV rendering "Before Abraham
>was born, I am" simply is ungrammatical!  The only way to defend such a
>rendering in my view is to say that here we have an expression that
>transcends human understanding, so we must use an ungrammatical
>expression to catch it.  But the problem with this is that we do not let
>language an grammar be the basis of our theology, but we let our
>theology in a way set language and grammar aside.  McKay's rendering "I
>have been in existence since before Abraham was born" is both
>grammatical and accounts perfectly for the syntax and the context.  We
>need not connect this translation with a technical term to realize that.
>
>Best regards
>
>Rolf Furuli
>University of Oslo
>
>MAKARIOIOIPRAEIS at aol.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>
>---
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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