[B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at juno.com
Wed Feb 2 06:27:22 EST 2005
On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:27:04 +0100 Rolf Furuli <furuli at online.no> writes:
> Dear Richard,
>
> In order to review translation alternatives it is much better to
> *describe* the syntactical and contextual situations than to tie the
>
> case to technical terms, such as PPA. One person (expressed by "I")
>
> existed before a point of time in the past (PRIN ABRAAAM), and
> because
> he (Jesus) is the one uttering the words, he still exists at the
> deictic
> center (speech time). Because EIMI does not have a perfect, this is
> in
> Greek expressed by the present of EIMI. What is described is a
> state,
> and this states has lasted from before a certain point in the past
> and
> still lasts at present (the deictic center). John 9:9 is a
> completely
> different situation.
>
> The problem with English as a target laguage is that neiter simple
> present nor the the imperfective aspect (the present participle) can
>
> express the mentioned situation (a state existing before a poit in
> the
> past and is still existing). Thus, the NIV rendering "Before
> Abraham
> was born, I am" simply is ungrammatical! The only way to defend
> such a
> rendering in my view is to say that here we have an expression that
>
> transcends human understanding, so we must use an ungrammatical
> expression to catch it. But the problem with this is that we do not
> let
> language an grammar be the basis of our theology, but we let our
> theology in a way set language and grammar aside. McKay's rendering
> "I
> have been in existence since before Abraham was born" is both
> grammatical and accounts perfectly for the syntax and the context.
> We
> need not connect this translation with a technical term to realize
> that.
>
> Best regards
>
> Rolf Furuli
> University of Oslo
________________________
I really don't think that "I have been in existence since before Abraham
was born" is even remotely adequate. While the authorship of the
Apocalypse is a matter of controversy among some and I don't subscribe to
the opinion that the same author wrote both the Apocalypse and the gospel
(don't go there, please), there are many places in which the Apocalypse
appears to operate in dialogue with the gospel. One such is the
statement in Re 1.8
hO WN KAI hO HN KAI hO ERXOMENOS
This assuredly indicates the continuity at all times of being extant --
not of having been extant. In English the perfect (The "have been" in
the quotation) does not convey a continuing result of a past action.
george
gfsomsel
___________
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