[B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???
Rolf Furuli
furuli at online.no
Wed Feb 2 11:54:19 EST 2005
Dear George,
There are no problems with the grammatical and syntactical construction
of JOHN 8:58 but the text is very simple. The problems are connected
with the claim of Jesus to have existed for more than 2,000 years and
the theological implications of this. I am only concerned with
linguistic matters here, and therefore I bring an example which has a
grammar and syntax quite similar to John 8:58.
The example is Jeremiah 1:5 PRO TOU ME PLASAI SE EN KOILIAi EPISTAMAI
The similarities between this passage and John 8:58 are that a state
(EPISTAMAI - to know) is said to hold before a certain point in the past
(PLASAI SE EN KOILIAi - formed you in the womb), and the verb is a Greek
present. Obviously, God still knew Jeremiah at speech time. Thus, the
passage mentions a state which held before a particular point in the
past and which still holds at speech time. The differences are that PRO
rather than PRIN is used and that the state is "to know" rather than "to
be".
The Greek grammar is simple, and a translator can use simple past
("Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.") something which would
stress God's knowledge before Jeremiah was born and just imply that this
knowledge held at speech time as well. The translator can also use
perfect ("I have known you before I formed you in the womb.") something
which would emphasize both the past and present knowledge. But the
translator can not render the text with English present: "Before I
formed you in the womb, I know you."
In the Hebrew text of Jer 1:5 the perfect of YD( (to know) is used, and
this verb form can be translated by English past or perfect in this
context. Jesus probably spoke the words rendered in John 8:58 in Hebrew
(possibly Aramaic), and he could have said 1) BETEREM HEYOT ABRAHAM
ANI, 2) BETEREM HEYOT ABRAHAM ANI HAYITI, or 3) BETEREM HEYOT ABRAHAM
ANI HU. The most likely choice is 1), which is a nominal clause. The
grammar and syntax are simple in all three examples as they are in the
Greek text.
There is no way to be certain that the words of Rev 1:8 can throw light
on John 8:58, as you suggest.
Best regards
Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo
George F Somsel wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:27:04 +0100 Rolf Furuli <furuli at online.no> writes:
>
>
>>snip
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>________________________
>
>I really don't think that "I have been in existence since before Abraham
>was born" is even remotely adequate. While the authorship of the
>Apocalypse is a matter of controversy among some and I don't subscribe to
>the opinion that the same author wrote both the Apocalypse and the gospel
>(don't go there, please), there are many places in which the Apocalypse
>appears to operate in dialogue with the gospel. One such is the
>statement in Re 1.8
>
>hO WN KAI hO HN KAI hO ERXOMENOS
>
>This assuredly indicates the continuity at all times of being extant --
>not of having been extant. In English the perfect (The "have been" in
>the quotation) does not convey a continuing result of a past action.
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>___________
>
>
>
>
>
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