[B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???

Rolf Furuli furuli at online.no
Wed Feb 2 11:54:19 EST 2005


Dear George,

 There are no problems with the grammatical and syntactical construction 
of JOHN 8:58 but the text is very simple.  The problems are connected 
with the claim of Jesus to have existed for more than 2,000 years and 
the theological implications of this. I am only concerned with 
linguistic matters here, and therefore I bring an example which has a 
grammar and syntax quite similar to John 8:58.

The example is Jeremiah 1:5  PRO TOU ME PLASAI SE EN KOILIAi EPISTAMAI

The similarities between this passage and John 8:58 are that a state 
(EPISTAMAI - to know) is said to hold before a certain point in the past 
(PLASAI SE EN KOILIAi - formed you in the womb), and the verb is a Greek 
present.  Obviously, God still knew Jeremiah at speech time. Thus, the 
passage mentions a state which held before a particular point in the 
past and which still holds at speech time.  The differences are that PRO 
rather than PRIN is used and that the state is "to know" rather than "to 
be".

The Greek grammar is simple, and a translator can use simple past 
("Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.") something which would 
stress God's knowledge before Jeremiah was born and just imply that this 
knowledge held at speech time as well.  The translator can also use 
perfect ("I have known you before I formed you in the womb.") something 
which would emphasize both the past and present knowledge.  But the 
translator can not render the text with English present: "Before I 
formed you in the womb, I know you."

In the Hebrew text of Jer 1:5 the perfect of YD( (to know) is used, and 
this verb form can be translated by English past or perfect in this 
context.  Jesus probably spoke the words rendered in John 8:58 in Hebrew 
(possibly Aramaic), and he could have said 1)  BETEREM HEYOT ABRAHAM 
ANI, 2) BETEREM HEYOT ABRAHAM ANI HAYITI, or 3) BETEREM HEYOT ABRAHAM 
ANI HU.  The most likely choice is 1), which is a nominal clause.  The 
grammar and syntax are simple in all three examples as they are in the 
Greek text.

There is no way to be certain that the words of Rev 1:8 can throw light 
on John 8:58, as you suggest.


Best regards

Rolf Furuli
University of Oslo

George F Somsel wrote:

>On Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:27:04 +0100 Rolf Furuli <furuli at online.no> writes:
>  
>
>>snip
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>________________________
>
>I really don't think that "I have been in existence since before Abraham
>was born" is even remotely adequate.  While the authorship of the
>Apocalypse is a matter of controversy among some and I don't subscribe to
>the opinion that the same author wrote both the Apocalypse and the gospel
>(don't go there, please), there are many places in which the Apocalypse
>appears to operate in dialogue with the gospel.  One such is the
>statement in Re 1.8
>
>hO WN KAI hO HN KAI hO ERXOMENOS
>
>This assuredly indicates the continuity at all times of being extant --
>not of having been extant.  In English the perfect (The "have been" in
>the quotation) does not convey a continuing result of a past action.
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>___________
>
>
>
>  
>



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