[B-Greek] Interrogative Imperatives?

moon at sogang.ac.kr moon at sogang.ac.kr
Sun Jun 5 02:25:18 EDT 2005





Thanks, George.


Some comments below.


Moon Jung


Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea




 
--- Original Message ---
>From    : 
 "George F Somsel"<gfsomsel at juno.com>
To      : 
 "moon at sogang.ac.kr"<moon at sogang.ac.kr>
Date    : 
 2005/06/05 ÀÏ¿äÀÏ ¿ÀÈÄ 2:01:23
Subject : 
 Re: Re: [B-Greek] Interrogative Imperatives?



  
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On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:22:42 +0900 (KST) <
moon at sogang.ac.kr
> writes:



  
--- Original Message ---
>From : 
"Carl W. 
  Conrad"<cwconrad at ioa.com>
To : 
  
"moon at sogang.ac.kr"<moon at sogang.ac.kr>
Date : 
2005/06/05 
  @O?d at O ?@@| 8:40:11
Subject : 
Re: [B-Greek] Interrogative 
  Imperatives?
On Jun 4, 2005, at 7:32 PM, moon at sogang.ac.kr wrote: 
  
> Hi, George, what do you think of the following obsevation of 
  Smyth 
> 1838,  p. 409: 
> 
> 
>   
> 
  
> 
> The Third person may be used in questions: 
> 
> 
  
>  OUKOUN KEISQW TAUTA. 
> 
>  Shall these points 
  
> be established? P.L. 820 e, 
> 
> 
>   
  
> 
> 
> I wonder if there are some more examples. 
  
I'll let George answer for himself, but for my own part, I would not 
  
describe KEISQW itself as "interrogative" in the above instance; it 
  
seems to me that OUKOUN is functioning here like a "N'est-ce pas" or 
a 
  "Nicht wahr? or a "Non e vero?", so that the sentence, 
OUKOUN KEISQW TAUTA 
  bears the sense "Those points should be settled 
(agreed upon), don't you 
  think?" 

  

    
 

    
[Moon] In the sentence in question,  Smyth writes OUKOUN with 
    circumflex accent on OUN,  You seem to assume  the latter.

    
Let me quote Denniston:

    
 It is usually agreed that the ancient grammarians are right in 
    saying

    
 that in OUKKOUN (with accent on OUK) the predominant

    
 element is OUK, in OUKOUN (with circumflex accent on OUN), OUN.

    
 

    
In the latter case, Denniston paraphrases it with "therefore, then,

    
now, again". This OUKOUN can occur with OU: OUKOUN OU, 
    OUKOUN..... OU, expecting a negative anwswer. OUKOUN OUK AN...

    
(see Denniston p. 435) 

    
 

    
Denniston also says that OUKOUN (with accent on OUK) 

    
is the livelier interrogative, while OUKOU (with accent on OUN)

    
is the quieter interrogative. He indicates that the accentuation of

    
OUKOUN in our MSS are not to be trusted.

    
 

    
In relation to our topic, he mentions (p. 406):

    
 

    
 (a) OUKOUN with the imperative. Phdr.274B OUKOUN TO MEN... IKANWS 
    ECETW. 278B OUKOUN HDH PEPAISQW  METRIWS HMIN

    
TA PERI LOGWN.

    
 

    
---------------------

    
 

    
But I had the impression, Moon, that you were raising the question 
    
with regard to some GNT text that you haven't mentioned? Just 
what 
    DID you have in mind in raising the question about interrogative 
    
imperatives? 

    
=>

    
[Moon] I wanted to see if the 3rd person imperative form can be used as a 
    rhetorical question in 1 Cor 14:34:

    
  hAI GUNAIKES EN TAIS EKKLHSIAS SIAGATWSAN.

    
 

    
So, I wanted to know the following paraphrase of 14:34-36

    
 would make sense:

    
 

    
 Must the women be silent in the churches?

    
 For it is not permitted for them to speak. But 

    
 must they be subordinated as the law also says?

    
 If they want to learn something, must they ask 

    
 to their husbands at home?  For it is shameful

    
 for women to speak in church.

    
 Or rather (H), did the word of God come upon

    
 you, or did it reach you only?

    
 

    
 

    
 Sincerely

    
Moon Jung

    
Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea 
rl W. Conrad 
Department of Classics, 
    Washington University (Emeritus) 
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 
    28714/(828) 675-4243 
cwconrad2 at mac.com 
WWW: 
    http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/ 

  
 


______________________


 


Moon,


 


 
               
             Certainly 
an imperative or any mood can be encased in a question.  

        
 

        
=> In the case of an imperative, it seems only the third person 
        can be encased in a question as Smyth says in p. 1838, p. 409. 

        
 

        
 

        
This does not make it an "interrogative imperative." 

        
 

        
=> Well taken. Thanks:-) 

        
 

        
            
         There is no such 
form.  In the case you cited from Plato's _Laws_ (
http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0166:book=7:section=820e
) 
        it is the OUKOUN which might form the structure to make it into a 
        question though I'm inclined to agree with Carl that it functions more 
        like "N'est pas", "Nicht Wahr" or "Right?" -- "This should be the case, 
        right?"  


 

        
=> I visited the above site, and read the dictionary item 
        associated with OUKOUN. It says: it lost the negative force of the word, 
        and 

        
means "then, so, therefore". 

        
 


               
           
            
           In regard to 
1 Cor 14.34 ff. I see no particle such as OUKOUN or any equivalency 
to make it into even a quasi-question.  Instead, SIGATWSAN is simply in a straightforward 
command "Let them be silent." 

        
 

        
=> If OUKOUN is simply a connective which means "then", 

        
     what makes the imperative  sentence 
        quoted from P.L.820      

        
     rhetorical is the context, rather than 
        OUKOUN itself, it seems.

        
 

        
     Anyway, I think I need to find other 
        examples where the 

        
     imperative is encased in a question and 
        used as a rhetorical

        
     question.  Is there some way to find 
        them in Persus database?

        
 

        
----------------------------------------------------------

        
 

        
 

        
 I suspect that you are struggling with the question of what 
        force this should have in today's churches (as each must do).  
        B-greek is not the place to answer such questions since they don't deal 
        strictly with the language so I will "Let myself keep silent" on this 
        matter.


george
gfsomsel
___________








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