[B-Greek] Interrogative Imperatives?
moon at sogang.ac.kr
moon at sogang.ac.kr
Sun Jun 5 02:25:18 EDT 2005
Thanks, George.
Some comments below.
Moon Jung
Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea
--- Original Message ---
>From :
"George F Somsel"<gfsomsel at juno.com>
To :
"moon at sogang.ac.kr"<moon at sogang.ac.kr>
Date :
2005/06/05 ÀÏ¿äÀÏ ¿ÀÈÄ 2:01:23
Subject :
Re: Re: [B-Greek] Interrogative Imperatives?
BODY {
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On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 11:22:42 +0900 (KST) <
moon at sogang.ac.kr
> writes:
--- Original Message ---
>From :
"Carl W.
Conrad"<cwconrad at ioa.com>
To :
"moon at sogang.ac.kr"<moon at sogang.ac.kr>
Date :
2005/06/05
@O?d at O ?@@| 8:40:11
Subject :
Re: [B-Greek] Interrogative
Imperatives?
On Jun 4, 2005, at 7:32 PM, moon at sogang.ac.kr wrote:
> Hi, George, what do you think of the following obsevation of
Smyth
> 1838, p. 409:
>
>
>
>
>
> The Third person may be used in questions:
>
>
> OUKOUN KEISQW TAUTA.
>
> Shall these points
> be established? P.L. 820 e,
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder if there are some more examples.
I'll let George answer for himself, but for my own part, I would not
describe KEISQW itself as "interrogative" in the above instance; it
seems to me that OUKOUN is functioning here like a "N'est-ce pas" or
a
"Nicht wahr? or a "Non e vero?", so that the sentence,
OUKOUN KEISQW TAUTA
bears the sense "Those points should be settled
(agreed upon), don't you
think?"
[Moon] In the sentence in question, Smyth writes OUKOUN with
circumflex accent on OUN, You seem to assume the latter.
Let me quote Denniston:
It is usually agreed that the ancient grammarians are right in
saying
that in OUKKOUN (with accent on OUK) the predominant
element is OUK, in OUKOUN (with circumflex accent on OUN), OUN.
In the latter case, Denniston paraphrases it with "therefore, then,
now, again". This OUKOUN can occur with OU: OUKOUN OU,
OUKOUN..... OU, expecting a negative anwswer. OUKOUN OUK AN...
(see Denniston p. 435)
Denniston also says that OUKOUN (with accent on OUK)
is the livelier interrogative, while OUKOU (with accent on OUN)
is the quieter interrogative. He indicates that the accentuation of
OUKOUN in our MSS are not to be trusted.
In relation to our topic, he mentions (p. 406):
(a) OUKOUN with the imperative. Phdr.274B OUKOUN TO MEN... IKANWS
ECETW. 278B OUKOUN HDH PEPAISQW METRIWS HMIN
TA PERI LOGWN.
---------------------
But I had the impression, Moon, that you were raising the question
with regard to some GNT text that you haven't mentioned? Just
what
DID you have in mind in raising the question about interrogative
imperatives?
=>
[Moon] I wanted to see if the 3rd person imperative form can be used as a
rhetorical question in 1 Cor 14:34:
hAI GUNAIKES EN TAIS EKKLHSIAS SIAGATWSAN.
So, I wanted to know the following paraphrase of 14:34-36
would make sense:
Must the women be silent in the churches?
For it is not permitted for them to speak. But
must they be subordinated as the law also says?
If they want to learn something, must they ask
to their husbands at home? For it is shameful
for women to speak in church.
Or rather (H), did the word of God come upon
you, or did it reach you only?
Sincerely
Moon Jung
Sogang Univ, Seoul, Korea
rl W. Conrad
Department of Classics,
Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC
28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW:
http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
______________________
Moon,
Certainly
an imperative or any mood can be encased in a question.
=> In the case of an imperative, it seems only the third person
can be encased in a question as Smyth says in p. 1838, p. 409.
This does not make it an "interrogative imperative."
=> Well taken. Thanks:-)
There is no such
form. In the case you cited from Plato's _Laws_ (
http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0166:book=7:section=820e
)
it is the OUKOUN which might form the structure to make it into a
question though I'm inclined to agree with Carl that it functions more
like "N'est pas", "Nicht Wahr" or "Right?" -- "This should be the case,
right?"
=> I visited the above site, and read the dictionary item
associated with OUKOUN. It says: it lost the negative force of the word,
and
means "then, so, therefore".
In regard to
1 Cor 14.34 ff. I see no particle such as OUKOUN or any equivalency
to make it into even a quasi-question. Instead, SIGATWSAN is simply in a straightforward
command "Let them be silent."
=> If OUKOUN is simply a connective which means "then",
what makes the imperative sentence
quoted from P.L.820
rhetorical is the context, rather than
OUKOUN itself, it seems.
Anyway, I think I need to find other
examples where the
imperative is encased in a question and
used as a rhetorical
question. Is there some way to find
them in Persus database?
----------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that you are struggling with the question of what
force this should have in today's churches (as each must do).
B-greek is not the place to answer such questions since they don't deal
strictly with the language so I will "Let myself keep silent" on this
matter.
george
gfsomsel
___________
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