[B-Greek] Carl Conrads answer on John 6
John VanRietschoten
jvanriet1 at mts.net
Fri Mar 25 16:58:55 EST 2005
John VanRietschoten Min. Emeritus in the Canadian Reformed Churches. Carman
Manitoba.
re: Carl Conrad's answer to Emmanuel Durand's question about John 6:33 and
35. Thank you Carl for broadening my scope of kowledge on John 6. I
appreciate your hint to consider all the possibilities of these genitive
constructions in John 6. Through time I seem to have noticed a trend in the
Johannine writings where it your method of interpretation is called for.
Till now I have not made that a special point of study. Has anyone that you
know of made a study on multiple and conflating meanings of nouns, verbs and
expressions in the writings of John? I would be pleased to know. Thanks.
John VanRietschoten.
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To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: B-Greek Digest, Vol 27, Issue 26
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. RE: Definition of Nicodemus (Jeff Cockrell)
> 2. Re: LXX: ESAIAS 65:20 (Justin Buol)
> 3. Re: John 6:33, 35 (emmanuel.le4)
> 4. Easter greetings (Eric Weiss)
> 5. Re: Easter greetings (Richard Ghilardi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:10:41 -0500
> From: "Jeff Cockrell" <jeffcockrell at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Definition of Nicodemus
> To: javurek at asu.edu, lpercer at liberty.edu, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <BAY21-F24FE047E5BA6F60FD40529D3400 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Vincent in his Word Studies says, " The name means conqueror of the people
> (íßêç, victory, and äῆìïò, people), though some give it a Hebrew
> derivation meaning innocent blood."
> Vincent, Marvin Richardson. Word Studies in the New Testament. Bellingham,
> WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2002.
>
> The Anchor Bible Dict article on Nicodemus says, "A fairly common Greek
> name
> in the 1st century meaning "conqueror of the people." Its Semitic
> equivalent
> was "Naqdimon," sometimes shortened to "Naqai." The biblical individual of
> that name is mentioned only in the gospel of John (3:1, 4, 9; 7:50;
> 19:39).
> Freedman, David Noel. The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday,
> 1996, c1992.
>
> Jeff Cockrell
>
>>From: Clayton Javurek <javurek at asu.edu>
>>To: "Percer, Leo R." <lpercer at liberty.edu>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Definition of Nicodemus
>>Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:56:45 -0700
>>
>>
>>
>>Clayton Javurek
>>E-Mail:javurek at asu.edu
>>
>>Check the commentary on the Gospel of John in Lange's Commentary
>>And it points out that the word Nicodemus can be derived from the
>>
>>Hebrew-Aramaic NAQIA = innocent DAM = blood
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>>[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Percer, Leo R.
>>Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:53 AM
>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subject: [B-Greek] Definition of Nicodemus
>>
>>
>>Greetings all:
>>
>>I am grading some papers that are required for a seminary class on the
>>Gospel of John. So far I have come across two students who claim that
>>the translation of the name "Nicodemus" has two meanings: 1) victor of
>>the people and 2) innocent of blood. The first translation makes sense
>>to me from the Greek, but I am confused as to the origin of the second
>>definition. Can someone here help me out? Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Dr. Leo Percer
>>Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies
>>Liberty University
>>1971 University Boulevard
>>Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary
>>Lynchburg, VA 24502-2269
>>(434) 592-4178
>>lpercer at liberty.edu
>>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:58:04 -0600
> From: Justin Buol <vonbuol at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] LXX: ESAIAS 65:20
> To: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>,
> b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <f1552376050324125818abddf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
>
> If you read KAI as adverbial, how is the adverbial functioning?
> Because if we then read it as Silva's alternative translation, "the
> sinner who dies a hundred years old will also be accursed," what is
> 'also' relating to? Also in regards to what else?
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:41:32 -0500, Albert Pietersma
> <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> As for the main question you raise-no, I don't see how one could make
>> the Greek mean what the Hebrew is thought to mean (see for example
>> NRSV). What happened is that ESA translated the participle of Hebrew
>> ChT) (''to sin") according to its stock meaning "to sin," that is,
>> "to miss the mark" in a religious or moral sense. Not surprisingly,
>> that mistake causes some semantic problems, which ESA tries to
>> ameliorate in two ways: (1) by setting up a contrast with what precedes
>> (see DE), and (2) by slipping in KAI (which has no formal basis in the
>> Hebrew. The resultant sense would seem to be that whereas one hundred
>> will be considered young (for pious people?), for the sinner to die at
>> a hundred will constitute a curse. Whether to read KAI as a conjunction
>> or as an adverbial gives rise to Silva's alternative renderings.
>> Personally, I tend to favour reading it as an adverbial.
>> Al
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:47:46 +0100
> From: "emmanuel.le4" <emmanuel.le4 at wanadoo.fr>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:33, 35
> To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Cc: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <000201c53127$bcf9cbe0$0100a8c0 at Durand>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks, that was a helpful reminder. It is easy to get lost in
> technicalities, and to forget the most important side of studying God's
> word
> which is MEDITATION.
>
> Emmanuel Durand
> Ferney-Voltaire
> France
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: "emmanuel.le4" <emmanuel_le4 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; "emmanuel.le4" <emmanuel.le4 at wanadoo.fr>
> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:33, 35
>
>
>> At 9:46 AM +0100 3/24/05, emmanuel.le4 wrote:
>> >Hi! I'm going through the bread of life discourse (John 6) at the moment
>> >and was asking myself a few questions. Which I now ask you. Sorry if
> these
>> >have already been asked in the past, just give me the references in the
>> >archives then.
>> >
>> >In v 33: hO ARTOS TOU QEOU what is the Genitive? Does it mean that God
>> >is
>> >the source or origin of the bread (which could fit the context, because
>> >this bread comes down from heaven)? Or is it a possessive genitive? What
>> >are the other possibilities?
>> >
>> >In v 35: hO ARTOS THS ZWHS. Same question: does the genitive point
>> >toward
>> >production: the bread that produces life? are there any other
>> >possibilities?
>> >In that same phrase, what is the significance of the article? Is it used
>> >to show the uniqueness of that bread (monadic)? Or is it "par
> excellence"?
>>
>> Although the grammars like to set out half a dozen subcategories of the
>> genitive dependent upon a noun, the fact is that there is no distinction
>> whatsoever in the Greek between these so-called subcategories; the
>> subcategories are attempts to sort out the kinds of usage that might be
>> represented in translation. What the noun in the genitive actually does
>> with regard to the noun it depends upon is the same thing that an
> adjective
>> does to a noun: it adds specificity to it: hO ARTOS TOU QEOU = "God-kind
>> bread" or "God-bread" and hO ARTOS THS ZWHS = "life-type bread" or
>> "life-bread." The Greek phrases tell you no more than that and a really
>> LITERAL translation would yield no more clarity than those English
>> equivalents. That is to say that you have to read the author's intent
>> from
>> the context alone.
>>
>> It might be worth while to think through the variety of possible senses
>> to
>> these phrases: hO ARTOS TOU QEOU might mean "bread that comes from God"
>> or
>> "bread that belongs to God" or even "bread that IS or CONTAINS God" or
>> "bread that gives the eater ACCESS TO God." One might do well to consider
>> ALL these possibilities.
>>
>> It is the context of the entire bread discourse that will offer whatever
>> clarity you may gain over the sense of these phrases. One general aspect
> of
>> these Johannine discourses of Jesus is that they tend to offer
>> meditations
>> on the range of meanings of a powerful metaphor. In the present
>> discourse,
>> I think that the most helpful methodology would be to suppose that the
>> "bread" in each of these expressions is Jesus himself and that the
>> various
>> genitives attached to ARTOS are employed to explore the relationship of
>> Jesus to God and to those to whom the bread is given; I really do not
> think
>> that determining which subcategory of adnominal genitive in which any one
>> of these adnominal genitives may be pigeonholed can assist the
>> understanding. Moreover, it seems to me that in a Johannine discourse, it
>> might even be better to think of HOW MANY different senses are suggested
> by
>> each of the adnominal genitives: these discourses do not seem intended to
>> provide the reader/listener with precise information about the "bread" so
>> much as to invite the reader/listener to MEDITATE upon the depth and
>> breadth of meanings that "bread" may bear as a cipher for Jesus himself.
>> --
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:21:10 -0800 (PST)
> From: Eric Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [B-Greek] Easter greetings
> To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20050325152110.53630.qmail at web61010.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> CRISTOS ANESTH
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric S. Weiss
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:56:10 -0500
> From: Richard Ghilardi <qodeshlayhvh at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Easter greetings
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050325.105611.-10307.0.qodeshlayhvh at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:21:10 -0800 (PST) Eric Weiss
> <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com> writes:
>> CRISTOS ANESTH
>
> ==================================================
>
> CRISTOS APEQANEN
> CRISTOS ANESTH (ALHQWS KURIOS)
> CRISTOS PALIN ELEUSETAI
>
> Yours in His grace,
>
> Richard Ghilardi - qodeshlayhvh at juno.com
> New Haven, Connecticut USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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