[B-Greek] Carl Conrads answer on John 6
Wendland, Paul
wendlanp at wls.wels.net
Fri Mar 25 18:58:28 EST 2005
Dear John:
On the subject, this might be helpful for 2nd John:
Wendland, Ernst R. 1991. "What is truth? semantic density and the language of the Johannine epistles with special reference to 2 John." Notes on Translation 5(2): 21-60.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_work.asp?id=27492
Paul
======================
Paul O. Wendland
Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary
wendlanp at wls.wels.net
Office: 262-242-8101
Home: 262-242-8117
-----Original Message-----
From: John VanRietschoten [mailto:jvanriet1 at mts.net]
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 3:59 PM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [B-Greek] Carl Conrads answer on John 6
John VanRietschoten Min. Emeritus in the Canadian Reformed Churches. Carman Manitoba.
re: Carl Conrad's answer to Emmanuel Durand's question about John 6:33 and 35. Thank you Carl for broadening my scope of kowledge on John 6. I appreciate your hint to consider all the possibilities of these genitive constructions in John 6. Through time I seem to have noticed a trend in the Johannine writings where it your method of interpretation is called for.
Till now I have not made that a special point of study. Has anyone that you know of made a study on multiple and conflating meanings of nouns, verbs and expressions in the writings of John? I would be pleased to know. Thanks.
John VanRietschoten.
----- Original Message -----
From: <b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: B-Greek Digest, Vol 27, Issue 26
> Send B-Greek mailing list submissions to b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> b-greek-owner at lists.ibiblio.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of B-Greek digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. RE: Definition of Nicodemus (Jeff Cockrell)
> 2. Re: LXX: ESAIAS 65:20 (Justin Buol)
> 3. Re: John 6:33, 35 (emmanuel.le4)
> 4. Easter greetings (Eric Weiss)
> 5. Re: Easter greetings (Richard Ghilardi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:10:41 -0500
> From: "Jeff Cockrell" <jeffcockrell at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Definition of Nicodemus
> To: javurek at asu.edu, lpercer at liberty.edu, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <BAY21-F24FE047E5BA6F60FD40529D3400 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Vincent in his Word Studies says, " The name means conqueror of the
> people (íßêç, victory, and äῆìïò, people), though some give it a
> Hebrew derivation meaning innocent blood."
> Vincent, Marvin Richardson. Word Studies in the New Testament.
> Bellingham,
> WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2002.
>
> The Anchor Bible Dict article on Nicodemus says, "A fairly common
> Greek name in the 1st century meaning "conqueror of the people." Its
> Semitic equivalent was "Naqdimon," sometimes shortened to "Naqai." The
> biblical individual of that name is mentioned only in the gospel of
> John (3:1, 4, 9; 7:50; 19:39).
> Freedman, David Noel. The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York:
> Doubleday, 1996, c1992.
>
> Jeff Cockrell
>
>>From: Clayton Javurek <javurek at asu.edu>
>>To: "Percer, Leo R." <lpercer at liberty.edu>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Definition of Nicodemus
>>Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:56:45 -0700
>>
>>
>>
>>Clayton Javurek
>>E-Mail:javurek at asu.edu
>>
>>Check the commentary on the Gospel of John in Lange's Commentary And
>>it points out that the word Nicodemus can be derived from the
>>
>>Hebrew-Aramaic NAQIA = innocent DAM = blood
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>>[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Percer, Leo R.
>>Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:53 AM
>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subject: [B-Greek] Definition of Nicodemus
>>
>>
>>Greetings all:
>>
>>I am grading some papers that are required for a seminary class on the
>>Gospel of John. So far I have come across two students who claim that
>>the translation of the name "Nicodemus" has two meanings: 1) victor
>>of the people and 2) innocent of blood. The first translation makes
>>sense to me from the Greek, but I am confused as to the origin of the
>>second definition. Can someone here help me out? Thanks in advance.
>>
>>Dr. Leo Percer
>>Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies Liberty University
>>1971 University Boulevard
>>Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary
>>Lynchburg, VA 24502-2269
>>(434) 592-4178
>>lpercer at liberty.edu
>>
>>---
>>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek B-Greek mailing list
>>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>---
>>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek B-Greek mailing list
>>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:58:04 -0600
> From: Justin Buol <vonbuol at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] LXX: ESAIAS 65:20
> To: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>,
> b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <f1552376050324125818abddf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
>
> If you read KAI as adverbial, how is the adverbial functioning?
> Because if we then read it as Silva's alternative translation, "the
> sinner who dies a hundred years old will also be accursed," what is
> 'also' relating to? Also in regards to what else?
>
>
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:41:32 -0500, Albert Pietersma
> <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> As for the main question you raise-no, I don't see how one could make
>> the Greek mean what the Hebrew is thought to mean (see for example
>> NRSV). What happened is that ESA translated the participle of Hebrew
>> ChT) (''to sin") according to its stock meaning "to sin," that is,
>> "to miss the mark" in a religious or moral sense. Not surprisingly,
>> that mistake causes some semantic problems, which ESA tries to
>> ameliorate in two ways: (1) by setting up a contrast with what
>> precedes (see DE), and (2) by slipping in KAI (which has no formal
>> basis in the Hebrew. The resultant sense would seem to be that
>> whereas one hundred will be considered young (for pious people?), for
>> the sinner to die at a hundred will constitute a curse. Whether to
>> read KAI as a conjunction or as an adverbial gives rise to Silva's alternative renderings.
>> Personally, I tend to favour reading it as an adverbial.
>> Al
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 08:47:46 +0100
> From: "emmanuel.le4" <emmanuel.le4 at wanadoo.fr>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:33, 35
> To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Cc: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <000201c53127$bcf9cbe0$0100a8c0 at Durand>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks, that was a helpful reminder. It is easy to get lost in
> technicalities, and to forget the most important side of studying
> God's word which is MEDITATION.
>
> Emmanuel Durand
> Ferney-Voltaire
> France
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: "emmanuel.le4" <emmanuel_le4 at hotmail.com>
> Cc: <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; "emmanuel.le4"
> <emmanuel.le4 at wanadoo.fr>
> Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2005 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 6:33, 35
>
>
>> At 9:46 AM +0100 3/24/05, emmanuel.le4 wrote:
>> >Hi! I'm going through the bread of life discourse (John 6) at the
>> >moment and was asking myself a few questions. Which I now ask you.
>> >Sorry if
> these
>> >have already been asked in the past, just give me the references in
>> >the archives then.
>> >
>> >In v 33: hO ARTOS TOU QEOU what is the Genitive? Does it mean that
>> >God is the source or origin of the bread (which could fit the
>> >context, because this bread comes down from heaven)? Or is it a
>> >possessive genitive? What are the other possibilities?
>> >
>> >In v 35: hO ARTOS THS ZWHS. Same question: does the genitive point
>> >toward
>> >production: the bread that produces life? are there any other
>> >possibilities?
>> >In that same phrase, what is the significance of the article? Is it
>> >used to show the uniqueness of that bread (monadic)? Or is it "par
> excellence"?
>>
>> Although the grammars like to set out half a dozen subcategories of
>> the genitive dependent upon a noun, the fact is that there is no
>> distinction whatsoever in the Greek between these so-called
>> subcategories; the subcategories are attempts to sort out the kinds
>> of usage that might be represented in translation. What the noun in
>> the genitive actually does with regard to the noun it depends upon is
>> the same thing that an
> adjective
>> does to a noun: it adds specificity to it: hO ARTOS TOU QEOU =
>> "God-kind bread" or "God-bread" and hO ARTOS THS ZWHS = "life-type
>> bread" or "life-bread." The Greek phrases tell you no more than that
>> and a really LITERAL translation would yield no more clarity than
>> those English equivalents. That is to say that you have to read the
>> author's intent from the context alone.
>>
>> It might be worth while to think through the variety of possible
>> senses to these phrases: hO ARTOS TOU QEOU might mean "bread that
>> comes from God"
>> or
>> "bread that belongs to God" or even "bread that IS or CONTAINS God"
>> or "bread that gives the eater ACCESS TO God." One might do well to
>> consider ALL these possibilities.
>>
>> It is the context of the entire bread discourse that will offer
>> whatever clarity you may gain over the sense of these phrases. One
>> general aspect
> of
>> these Johannine discourses of Jesus is that they tend to offer
>> meditations on the range of meanings of a powerful metaphor. In the
>> present discourse, I think that the most helpful methodology would be
>> to suppose that the "bread" in each of these expressions is Jesus
>> himself and that the various genitives attached to ARTOS are employed
>> to explore the relationship of Jesus to God and to those to whom the
>> bread is given; I really do not
> think
>> that determining which subcategory of adnominal genitive in which any
>> one of these adnominal genitives may be pigeonholed can assist the
>> understanding. Moreover, it seems to me that in a Johannine
>> discourse, it might even be better to think of HOW MANY different
>> senses are suggested
> by
>> each of the adnominal genitives: these discourses do not seem
>> intended to provide the reader/listener with precise information
>> about the "bread" so much as to invite the reader/listener to
>> MEDITATE upon the depth and breadth of meanings that "bread" may bear as a cipher for Jesus himself.
>> --
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:21:10 -0800 (PST)
> From: Eric Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [B-Greek] Easter greetings
> To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20050325152110.53630.qmail at web61010.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> CRISTOS ANESTH
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric S. Weiss
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 10:56:10 -0500
> From: Richard Ghilardi <qodeshlayhvh at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Easter greetings
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20050325.105611.-10307.0.qodeshlayhvh at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 07:21:10 -0800 (PST) Eric Weiss
> <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com> writes:
>> CRISTOS ANESTH
>
> ==================================================
>
> CRISTOS APEQANEN
> CRISTOS ANESTH (ALHQWS KURIOS)
> CRISTOS PALIN ELEUSETAI
>
> Yours in His grace,
>
> Richard Ghilardi - qodeshlayhvh at juno.com New Haven, Connecticut USA
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
> End of B-Greek Digest, Vol 27, Issue 26
> ***************************************
---
B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list