[B-Greek] tongues - languages (CAUTION)
Glendon M. Gross
gross at clones.net
Thu May 26 11:14:27 EDT 2005
This discussion reminds me of my French textbook when I went to Geneva
as a 13-year old child. It was called
"Cours de langue et de civilization Française." Someone once joked to
me, "Do you mean you were studying the
tongue of French people, i.e. the organ in their mouth?
In reflecting on this, I realized that these problems are still
happening today. One person expects GLWSSAI to be
"tongues of fire", another ecstatic utterances, and another languages.
I suspect this discussion will never be
resolved by appeals to the Greek grammar of the passage.
Regards,
Glendon Gross
Amateur Greek Student
Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>CAUTION regarding discussion of GLWSSAI, etc.
>
>I think it is worth taking note that there are several different ways of understanding
>the Greek texts using the words LALEIN and GLWSSHi or GLWSSAIS or GLWSSAI in the text of
>1 Cor 12-14. We have been through this discussion repeatedly in the course of the last 10+
>years of B-Greek discussion, often talking past each other because different interpretative
>assumptions are being brought to the understanding of the Greek text. Moreover, since these
>chapters are of crucial importance to some groups of believers, discussion of these chapters
>(insofar as it focuses on this topic of GLWSSAI) may become heated sufficiently to inflame
>passions. I'd not like to see that happen in this discussion, but it can happen if those
>holding these different assumptions about the meanings of the words insist severally upon
>the AUTHORITY of their own view based on their own assumptions.
>
>On Thursday, May 26, 2005, at 10:23AM, malcolm robertson <mjriii2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Dear Jeffery,
>>
>>One of the major problems that has long been long recognize with TWNT(TDNT) is the fact that it transports the conceptual categories or semantic ranges of a word's historical usage and packs it unpacked into NT lexicography. James Barr wrote a book entitled The Semantics of Biblical Language demonstrating the fallacy of this work.
>>
>>In addition, the contexts which have been referenced in the last few post do not forbide a known tongue or language translation. Acts 2:4 says KAI WFQHSAN AUTOIS DIAMERIZOMENAI GLWSSAI WSEI PUROS KAI EKAQISEN EF hENA hEKASTON AUTWN...
>>
>>and
>>
>>The hETERAIS GLWSSAIS (v 4) in conjunction with HKOUON hEIS hEKASTON THi IDIAi DIALEKTWi LALOUNTWN AUTWN ...(v 6) coupled with vss 7and 8 should make it abundantly clear that this occurence was not the same as the other instances in Scripture.
>>
>>There is nothing to suggest that 1 Cor 12-14 is anything other than the reflection of the multilingual and very cosmopolitan makeup of Corinthian Church. Otherwise you would have the problem in Gen 11:9 (the very like problem of confusion, unitelligiblity) and the blindness of the mystery religion's utter (heavenly sic) hogwash.
>>
>>Cordially in Christ,
>>
>>Malcolm Robertson
>>
>>"Jeffrey T. Requadt" <jeffreyrequadt_list at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I'd like to note that the LALEIN (EN) GLWSSHi (GLWSSAIS) which is mentioned
>>in 1 Cor. 12-14, Acts 10:46 and 19:6, seems contextually to differ from
>>normal speech such as English, French, and Koine Greek. TDNT has a good
>>article on this (Vol. 1, p. 722). The point of this is to say that since
>>GLWSSA in these contexts does not necessarily refer to a real "language"
>>normally spoken by human beings (I'm not making any theological or
>>exegetical conclusions here, just trying to point out what the word may very
>>well have meant to the original hearers), it would probably be misleading
>>and over-interpreting to translate it as "languages" versus the more
>>ambiguous/mysterious (albeit, as you say, archaic) "tongues." Unfortunately,
>>I don't have the 3rd ed. of BDAG available, but I do have the 2nd ed. (DBAG)
>>on my computer, and it gives 2 reasons why GLWSSA is a problem in the
>>Corinthian passages: It is always without the article, and the phenomenon
>>was actually known in ancient Greek religion, either as "antiquated,
>>foreign, unintelligible, mysterious utterances"; or as "speaking in
>>marvelous, heavenly languages."
>>
>>The TDNT article is too long for me to reproduce here (the Greek fonts would
>>not go over well, either), but here is the gist: the idea of "speaking in
>>tongues" as some kind of "ecstatic utterance" or "heavenly language" was
>>known in ancient Greek religion; it was known to Judaism; it had by Paul's
>>time somewhat the status of a technical term; although it did still mean
>>"language", it also referred to "ecstatic utterances".
>>
>>Again, I'm not trying to make any theological conclusions. The original
>>question was, "Any idea why modern translations still tend to use the
>>archaic _expression "tongues" rather than "languages"? Is there any semantic
>>reason for translating this with "tongues" that "languages" would not
>>equally denote?" So I guess my answer would be, based on DBAG and TDNT, that
>>there may be a linguistic reason not to translate GLWSSA as "language" in 1
>>Corinthians, and it's probably more than mere tradition or appeasement to
>>any one theological group. Things like this are why I wish translating
>>committees would publish a handbook that explains why they translate certain
>>controversial passages the way they do; but that's getting into translation,
>>not necessarily Greek grammar.
>>
>>Or have I missed the point of the entire discussion?
>>
>>Jeffrey T. Requadt
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>>[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Ben Crick
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:01 PM
>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] tongues - languages
>>
>>On Wed 25 May 2005 (06:14:56), papaweiss1 at yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>3. Being an unusual or rarely-used (these days) word for "languages,"
>>>it perhaps subtly cues the reader/listener to the fact that the text
>>>is speaking about something other than normal human speech.
>>>
>>>
>>"Language" is an English word derived from the Latin /lingua/, the tongue.
>>"Tongues" and "Languages" (articulated with the help of the "tongue") are
>>therefore synonymous.
>>
>>ERRWSQE
>>Ben
>>--
>>Revd Ben Crick, BA CF ZFC Hf
>>
>>
>
>
>Carl W. Conrad, Co-Chair, B-Greek Discussion List
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>cwconrad2 at mac.com
>WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>---
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>
>.
>
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