[B-Greek] John 7:15 re GRAMMATA

Dan Gleason dan-bgreek at hotmail.com
Tue Nov 1 15:57:32 EST 2005


John 7:15 re GRAMMATA

I wrote: I looked at the greek text for this verse today and I am having  a 
problem with the last part of it. Is the following a correct  translation? 
... Jn 7:15 ... Therefore the Jews were marveling, saying ...

PWS hOUTOS GRAMMATA OIDEN MH MEMAQHKWS.
How does this man know LETTERS not having <learned> them?

Is the text referring to Hebrew Letters or Greek Letters (or both)  which in 
turn points to some kind of special teaching (a formula or  superstition 
like letters equaling numbers).

GS and CC responded

GS: If you check BDAG (which you should own -- if not, buy it NOW), you will 
find that GRAMMA, particularly in the pl GRAMMATA refers to knowledge or 
learning in general.  This is similar to its usage in English.  
The_New_York_Sun_ even has a feature called "Arts and Letters" --

CC: MEMAQHKWS doesn't mean "having known" but "having learned." The  
question posed is "How this fellow can read, since he hasn't been  
schooled?" -- or, if you prefer it in the style of the word-for-word  
interlinear text: "how this-one letters knows, not having learned."  But the 
sense is: "How can this guy be so well-versed in scripture,  since he's 
clearly untutored?" Jesus' answer is appropriate to that  sense, "I didn't 
get my teaching from scribes or rabbis, I got it  from the one who sent me."

DG: Thank you George, I just ordered BDAG 2000 today.

I looked up grammata in another online lexicon (http://www.greekbible.com/) 
and here is what it says ...

1) a letter  2) any writing, a document or record  2a) a note of hand, bill, 
bond, account, written  acknowledgement of a debt  2b) a letter, an epistle  
2c) the sacred writings (of the OT)  3) letters, i.e. learning  3a) of 
sacred learning

I know what both of you are saying but two different lexicons have multiple 
meanings for grammata.
Is one of the meanings "Letters of the alphabet" or not?
Is it remotely possible that grammata in Jn 7:15 might be a play on words?

Consider this passage from the Infancy gospel of Thomas where Jesus teaches 
his teacher about letters ... (Source: THE GNOSTIC SOCIETY LIBRARY) ...

Now a certain teacher, Zacchaeus by name, stood there and he heard in part 
when Jesus said these things to his father and he marvelled greatly that 
being a young child he spake such matters. 2 And after a few days he came 
near unto Joseph and said unto him: Thou hast a wise child, and he hath 
understanding. Come, deliver him to me that he may learn letters. And I will 
teach him with the letters all knowledge and that he salute all the elders 
and honour them as grandfathers and fathers, and love them of his own years. 
3 And he told him all the letters from Alpha even to Omega clearly, with 
much questioning. But Jesus looked upon Zacchaeus the teacher and saith unto 
him: Thou that knowest not the Alpha according to its nature, how canst thou 
teach others the Beta? thou hypocrite, first, if thou knowest it, teach the 
Alpha, and then will we believe thee concerning the Beta. Then began he to 
confound the mouth of the teacher concerning the first letter, and he could 
not prevail to answer him. 4 And in the hearing of many the young child 
saith to Zacchaeus: Hear, O teacher, the ordinance of the first letter and 
pay heed to this, how that it hath [what follows is really unintelligible in 
this and in all the parallel texts: a literal version would run something 
like this: how that it hath lines, and a middle mark, which thou seest, 
common to both, going apart; coming together, raised up on high, dancing (a 
corrupt word), of three signs, like in kind (a corrupt word), balanced, 
equal in measure]: thou hast the rules of the Alpha.

As you can see, this "gospel" (written after canonical John) seems to talk 
about a special kind of "teaching" regarding "letters." I am sure the Jews 
wouldn't be amazed because Jesus as a grown man knew how to write "letters." 
Maybe Jesus knew the scriptures and had a brand new interpretation of the OT 
text (based on interpreting the letters in the text) that came from God? If 
he taught something and it made sense this would indeed amaze the Jews.

Dan Gleason

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